Landlord holding deposit, have to be out in the morning

newbie2013

A friend of mine who has been living in same house for 12 years and kept the house in good condition in all that time with laying New wooden floors, carpets, linos in ensuite and decorated the house every 2-3 year's. Her landlord phoned her week or 2 before xmass and said she will have to leave maybe on Jan because he selling the house and got a sale.

It was a shock to her to say the least having to move so quick after so long but after the shock, she started looking for a new house for her and her 3 kids. Turns out she couldn't find any until last week and had an agreement with the New landlord that she could move her stuff in until she gets her deposit and was ready to vacate the property early tomorrow

Her landlord phones 2 days ago informing her there's no deposit for her because she owes it in rent but she's disputing this. The landlord sent her a letter written in pen which she just received this morning with all the dates she missed and supposedly missed payments from far as back as 2011 for 12 Euro.

She's now in a very distressed state because come early tomorrow she has to vacate the property but can't pay her new deposit so can't move into her new home

I've informed her to open a case with the ptrb early tomorrow to get this resolved and not to vacate the property. Can anyone tell me where she stands when the landlord calls tomorrow for the keys.

djimi

She is entitled to 16 weeks of notice, so I suppose technically she could withdraw her notice and wait out the 16 weeks. Im not fully sure what the legalities of this are though. Either way, if she chooses not to hand back the keys then there isnt really a lot that the landlord can do about it.

The first thing that I would be doing is asking the landlord for proof of the missing rent payments, and also she should be looking for any proof that she can find as to what she has paid. If she paid by bank transfer/standing order then this should be as easy as going back through old bank statements.

davo10

newbie2013 wrote: »

A friend of mine who has been living in same house for 12 years and kept the house in good condition in all that time with laying New wooden floors, carpets, linos in ensuite and decorated the house every 2-3 year's. Her landlord phoned her week or 2 before xmass and said she will have to leave maybe on Jan because he selling the house and got a sale.

It was a shock to her to say the least having to move so quick after so long but after the shock, she started looking for a new house for her and her 3 kids. Turns out she couldn't find any until last week and had an agreement with the New landlord that she could move her stuff in until she gets her deposit and was ready to vacate the property early tomorrow

Her landlord phones 2 days ago informing her there's no deposit for her because she owes it in rent but she's disputing this. The landlord sent her a letter written in pen which she just received this morning with all the dates she missed and supposedly missed payments from far as back as 2011 for 12 Euro.

She's now in a very distressed state because come early tomorrow she has to vacate the property but can't pay her new deposit so can't move into her new home

I've informed her to open a case with the ptrb early tomorrow to get this resolved and not to vacate the property. Can anyone tell me where she stands when the landlord calls tomorrow for the keys.

If the landlord has a record of all the dates your friend did not pay rent, are these accurate or does she dispute them? This should be easy to account for, either she paid the full monthly rent on time or she didn't. If she was short €12 here and €10 there over a 3 year period, it could add up. Also was rent paid on exact date each month, if it's late by an extra 1 day every month on average, after just over 2 years she would be behind by a month.

The_Morrigan

The first thing that springs to mind is that the landlord hasn't given her enough notice to vacate - if she has been in the house more than 4 years she is entitled to 16 weeks written notice, a phone call a week or two before Christmas leaves her short of this requirement.

Secondly, if he can prove with receipts/invoices any valid reasons to retain the deposit then he may have an entitlement to it.
Her best bet is to go over her own records to ensure she can prove that she paid the rent (rent book, standing orders etc) and lodge a complaint to the PRTB to get this back.

newbie2013

djimi wrote: »

She is entitled to 16 weeks of notice, so I suppose technically she could withdraw her notice and wait out the 16 weeks. Im not fully sure what the legalities of this are though. Either way, if she chooses not to hand back the keys then there isnt really a lot that the landlord can do about it.

The first thing that I would be doing is asking the landlord for proof of the missing rent payments, and also she should be looking for any proof that she can find as to what she has paid. If she paid by bank transfer/standing order then this should be as easy as going back through old bank statements.

Shes been telling me she's paid all what she owed. In the 12 years she did miss a few payments, not that she didn't have the money. She just forgot , maybe 2 or 3 Times in the 12 years.

If it where me and I was the landlord, I'd have let her know well in advance so this wouldn't happen.

Forgot to mention that the landlord made a mistake about the rent not getting paid before.

She also has been in receipt of rent allowance and when she had part time work, she's thinking maybe the rent mightnt have been paid then by the welfare

The_Morrigan

newbie2013 wrote: »

Shes been telling me she's paid all what she owed. In the 12 years she did miss a few payments, not that she didn't have the money. She just forgot , maybe 2 or 3 Times in the 12 years.

If it where me and I was the landlord, I'd have let her know well in advance so this wouldn't happen.

Forgot to mention that the landlord made a mistake about the rent not getting paid before.

She also has been in receipt of rent allowance and when she had part time work, she's thinking maybe the rent mightnt have been paid then.

So the landlord could be right then?

The_Conductor

She needs to contact DSFA and confirm the details of her historical payments (I think they keep records going back 7 years). It sounds very plausible that the landlord may in fact be right, unfortunately.

Electric Sheep

newbie2013 wrote: »

Shes been telling me she's paid all what she owed. In the 12 years she did miss a few payments, not that she didn't have the money. She just forgot , maybe 2 or 3 Times in the 12 years.

How on earth do you "forget" to pay the rent?!

davo10

Electric Sheep wrote: »

How on earth do you "forget" to pay the rent?!

If she "forgot" to pay rent she has a sound landlord who didn't press for payment at the time, but she still owes it.

newbie2013

davo10 wrote: »

If she "forgot" to pay rent she has a sound landlord who didn't press for payment at the time, but she still owes it.

She did pay it. Maybe a week or 2 after

newbie2013

Electric Sheep wrote: »

How on earth do you "forget" to pay the rent?!

Right now, let me explain this to you. You see the part that says she's been in the house 12 years. We'll in all that time, she's had 3 kids, a few deaths in her family. Some holidays and even been real busy with other stuff in life like work, communions, christenings , weddings etc... Do you see what I'm getting at. 12 years were talking about here so IMO it's reasonable to miss the rent date a few times in this period. Would you agree?

whatnext

newbie2013 wrote: »

Right now, let me explain this to you. You see the part that says she's been in the house 12 years. We'll in all that time, she's had 3 kids, a few deaths in her family. Some holidays and even been real busy with other stuff in life like work, communions, christenings , weddings etc... Do you see what I'm getting at. 12 years were talking about here so IMO it's reasonable to miss the rent date a few times in this period. Would you agree?

Absolutely not.
And to be honest I cant fathom why you think it would be reasonable.

chin nuts

newbie2013 wrote: »

Right now, let me explain this to you. You see the part that says she's been in the house 12 years. We'll in all that time, she's had 3 kids, a few deaths in her family. Some holidays and even been real busy with other stuff in life like work, communions, christenings , weddings etc... Do you see what I'm getting at. 12 years were talking about here so IMO it's reasonable to miss the rent date a few times in this period. Would you agree?

absolutely not.. if this rent is paying LL mortgage do you think the bank would be cool with that. crazy talk. if i missed a months rent my LL would be on the phone straight away.

cerastes

newbie2013 wrote: »

Right now, let me explain this to you. You see the part that says she's been in the house 12 years. We'll in all that time, she's had 3 kids, a few deaths in her family. Some holidays and even been real busy with other stuff in life like work, communions, christenings , weddings etc... Do you see what I'm getting at. 12 years were talking about here so IMO it's reasonable to miss the rent date a few times in this period. Would you agree?

I didnt know this was allowed, Im with my bank longer than that, if this is reasonable and allowed, they owe me a few mortgage payments back, Im glad I read this thread now.
That other stuff is all the same kind of things everyone does, has, deals with, some people use that as their excuse for anything.
Communions, christenings, they arent things to be busy about, minimal prep required, you turn up, go home, job done. Weddings, well unless it was her own, and even then, how could they justify a lavish expense when not paying rent, someone else??? not a consideration.
They should try that with the bank themselves, see how it goes.

foggy_lad

chin nuts wrote: »

absolutely not.. if this rent is paying LL mortgage do you think the bank would be cool with that. crazy talk. if i missed a months rent my LL would be on the phone straight away.

How any landlord pays their bills or mortgage is no concern of their tenants! Any landlord that relies on the next rent payment to cover the mortgage is asking for big trouble and should consider cutting their losses and selling up to someone who will operate the rental business properly.

MouseTail

newbie2013 wrote: »

She did pay it. Maybe a week or 2 after

so, she paid it late, or she didn't pay it? Does she even know?

The_Conductor

She needs to contact DSFA and find out what the story is.
If its an absolute emergency- go to the local Community Welfare Officer- they may be able to assist- but they may also put strings on any assistance they give (such as deducting any upfront payments from periodic payments- and it may be up to the recipient to make good the difference).

Look- the tenant needs to accurately figure out what the lay of the land is- and how to get over the current predicament. After that- all else are things she can deal with over time.

Shelli2

Like others have said, she has 16wks legally, so she tells her landlord: Either you give me back my deposit so I can take the new property, or I'm staying for the full 16wks to chase this up with PRTB and to give me time to get a deposit together and find another house.

(Assuming she's in the right of course and is not in arrears)

LL will not want to lose his sale as a lot of buyers won't want to wait an extra 4 months.

davo10

foggy_lad wrote: »

How any landlord pays their bills or mortgage is no concern of their tenants! Any landlord that relies on the next rent payment to cover the mortgage is asking for big trouble and should consider cutting their losses and selling up to someone who will operate the rental business properly.

Actually, how the tenant comes up with money to pay the rent is no concern of the LL, as long as they pay their rent on time.

The rest of your post I is assume is just trolling or you know absolutely nothing about business. Many property owners have lost jobs, have lower rental incomes etc, to say they should sell to someone who will run the rental business properly as if selling for the purchase price is easy, wow, prize winning post.

As deposit disputes go, this should be one if the easier ones to sort out. Either the LL shows the bank statements in the dates he claims rent wasn't paid thus proving him right or OPs mum shows her bank statement/lodgement slips in those dates proving him wrong. If she invokes her right to stay 16 weeks she pays more rent and delays moving in to her new place and maybe pisses off the new LL.

davo10

Shelli2 wrote: »

LL will not want to lose his sale as a lot of buyers won't want to wait an extra 4 months.

I'm not so sure about this Shelli, I think most buyers would happily wait 4 weeks to avoid having to deal with an outgoing tenant. Most want vacant possession or if it's an investment property, a long term tenant.

Arbiter of Good Taste

newbie2013 wrote: »

Right now, let me explain this to you. You see the part that says she's been in the house 12 years. We'll in all that time, she's had 3 kids, a few deaths in her family. Some holidays and even been real busy with other stuff in life like work, communions, christenings , weddings etc... Do you see what I'm getting at. 12 years were talking about here so IMO it's reasonable to miss the rent date a few times in this period. Would you agree?

Most people live their lives, have children, deal with death, etc, etc and still manage to cover their liabilities. I would really love to hear the LL's side of this story, because this person doesn't sound like a particular good tenant if they are so cavalier about paying their rent.

hfallada

newbie2013 wrote: »

Right now, let me explain this to you. You see the part that says she's been in the house 12 years. We'll in all that time, she's had 3 kids, a few deaths in her family. Some holidays and even been real busy with other stuff in life like work, communions, christenings , weddings etc... Do you see what I'm getting at. 12 years were talking about here so IMO it's reasonable to miss the rent date a few times in this period. Would you agree?

No not in anyway. Paying something monthly like rent should be a habit. There is no excuse with standing orders anymore. In this forum there is nothing but landlord bashing such as he wont paint the walls. But it's totally fine for a tenant to be constantly late on their rent.

Shelli2

davo10 wrote: »

I'm not so sure about this Shelli, I think most buyers would happily wait 4 weeks to avoid having to deal with an outgoing tenant. Most want vacant possession or if it's an investment property, a long term tenant.

4wks maybe, but 4 months? And would the landlord risk it?

davo10

Shelli2 wrote: »

4wks maybe, but 4 months? And would the landlord risk it?

Notice given early December.

NinjaTruncs

davo10 wrote: »

Notice given early December.

Is verbal norice sufficient? I thought it had to be written with an exact termination date to be valid. Or is that only the case for rent increases?

burke027

Just to add there is no excuse for paying the rent late you wouldn't pay your mortgage late so in fairness that doesn't cut it.
On the moving out situation if it's 16 weeks notice then if hit the landlord with that and state your staying the 16 weeks or give me my deposit back

The_Morrigan

davo10 wrote: »

Notice given early December.

That's questionable. The OP had another thread in December where they stated the LL had rung the tenant to let them know they may have to vacate at the end of Jan.
There may have been no valid notice given.

davo10

Sorry, I'll correct that, according to OPs post, notice given in early December by phone. The tenant should be given 16, that is beyond dispute but that is not OPs issue, the tenant has found another apartment and as long as she pays her rent during the 16 weeks I can't imagine it being to much of a problem with the existing LL .

OP is the notice period an issue now that your friend has found a new place or is it just the deposit? Would it benefit her to stay on for another month and pay rent on both? (I'm assuming new LL will not allow the property to lie idle for another couple of weeks).

bertie1

The landlord is entitled to hold to deposit until the tenant vacates & then deduct arrears of rent from it nice they have inspected the house. Not before they leave

djimi

We don'tk know what notice was or wasn't given, but my reading of the OP is that the landlord rang before Christmas saying that she might need to be out by January (not valid notice) and she then went off and found another house. Whether written notice was given to the tenant, or indeed whether or not the tenant gave the required notice to terminate when they found the new house is not clear.

davo10

bertie1 wrote: »

The landlord is entitled to hold to deposit until the tenant vacates & then deduct arrears of rent from it nice they have inspected the house. Not before they leave

I think the issue here is that LL has told tenant there is no deposit to be handed back when she does leave because she owes rent in that amount due to non payment of the correct rent over the years.

djimi

And in light of what has been said about the tenants somewhat patchy history of rent payment, I will echo what I said above that both parties need to get their ducks in a row with regards what has or has not been paid. The tenant should have some form of paper trail for rent payments (be it bank statements or receipts if rent was paid in cash); it's going to be difficult to prove a history of payment otherwise.

davo10

djimi wrote: »

And in light of what has been said about the tenants somewhat patchy history of rent payment, I will echo what I said above that both parties need to get their ducks in a row with regards what has or has not been paid. The tenant should have some form of paper trail for rent payments (be it bank statements or receipts if rent was paid in cash); it's going to be difficult to prove a history of payment otherwise.

Bang on, this is not one of those disputes where the grievance is subjective, both parties should be able to prove conclusively that rent was or wasn't paid.

yankinlk

If the LL is motivated to sell for real (and not just using an excuse to evict tenant) i have to ask - has the tenant been allowing viewings all this time? Have they mutually accommodated each other?

D3PO

davo10 wrote: »

Notice given early December.

notice is invalid as wasnt the correct notice. You cant just extend the notice period.

If you mess up you have to start again so written notice from now for the 16 weeks would have to be served by the LL.

djimi

To be honest, the notice period (while a valid issue) is not the biggest problem here. If the tenant is in arrears for rent then that is an issue that is going to have to be sorted one way or another. The notice might come into play in so far as if the landlord needs the tenant out now then it might make more sense to write off the arrears rather than wait 16 weeks to get the property back, but either way the issue of the arrears is going to have to be sorted, be it now or in June.

FatFrog87

Think best way to handle it is. Inform the landlord that you were relying on the deposit back to move and that you now can't afford to. That you will need the 16 weeks notice required to save for a new deposit. If landlord is selling the place, you can be sure that deposit will be paid back straight away.

If she has missed payments and wants to do the right thing she could put a payment plan in place and pay it off over a period of time.

D3PO

it is infact a very important point.

Demanding valid notice gives the OP the time to actually figure out the situation regarding arrears and to prove that they are not in arrears or if they are to figure out their next step.

Not sure how you think calling out that the OP has more time to sort this than they believe is not a key point to call out.

djimi

Im not saying that the notice issue isnt important; Im simply saying that right now it is not the most important issue. If the tenant can sort the issue of the arrears then they will be moving now (as they have already found somewhere that they want to move into), so I would be using my time to get that issue sorted rather than spending too much time arguing a notice period. It sounds like no proper notice was issued by the landlord either way; my reading of this is that the tenant jumped before they were formally pushed.

P. Breathnach

Let us suppose that some rent is due. Obviously, that should be verified and the amount calculated.

The tenant could then negotiate with the landlord for some compensation for surrendering possession without the proper notice.

It would be convenient (particularly for the tenant) if the two amounts were about the same.

D3PO

djimi wrote: »

Im not saying that the notice issue isnt important; Im simply saying that right now it is not the most important issue. .

actually it is the most important issue right now. Read the title "have to be out in the morning" aka this morning.

First step for the OP's friend is to ensure they have a roof over their head, then they can worry over the arrears claims.

djimi

D3PO wrote: »

actually it is the most important issue right now. Read the title "have to be out in the morning" aka this morning.

First step for the OP's friend is to ensure they have a roof over their head, then they can worry over the arrears claims.

Yes but them having to be out by this morning is a self imposed deadline as they want to move into their new house; it is not because of a notice period imposed by the landlord. They have a roof over their head; they arent going anywhere one way or another.

One question I would ask the OP is how much notice was the landlord given of the tenants intention to move? Did the tenant give anything like the 56 days notice that they are obliged to give?

runawaybishop

Landlord has issues a notice of rent arrears though, right? Could very well be that the next step for LL is a notice of termination.

gaius c

How long has the tenant been in arrears? The OP seems to imply that this might be going back a while.
Did the landlord make efforts to sort it out at the time?

mrsbyrne

Threshold are the contact here, not PRTB, PRTB will not come into play until Threshold have done.

djimi

Threshold are only an advice organization; you can straight to the PRTB without ever needing to contact Threshold.

runawaybishop

mrsbyrne wrote: »

Threshold are the contact here, not PRTB, PRTB will not come into play until Threshold have done.

What do you mean? Threshold are an independent advice service. There is no requirement to go to them.

percy212

I cant understand why the landlord would allow all those purportedly owed amounts to linger for years. In his shoes I would be pleased with the sale and happy that the tenant had cared for the house. I would happily return the deposit and wish her well in her new place.

In the tenants shoes I would dig in my heels. No deposit no move. 16 weeks from now ( or until written notice is given) while receiving no rent (already have a new place) should set this penny smart pound foolish landlord ingrate straight.

runawaybishop

percy212 wrote: »

I cant understand why the landlord would allow all those purportedly owed amounts to linger for years. In his shoes I would be pleased with the sale and happy that the tenant had cared for the house. I would happily return the deposit and wish her well in her new place.

In the tenants shoes I would dig in my heels. No deposit no move. 16 weeks from now ( or until written notice is given) while receiving no rent (already have a new place) should set this penny smart pound foolish landlord ingrate straight.

He could be using it an a faster avenue to evict the tenant. It doesn't matter how long the LL lingered, if rent is in arrears then it is due.

OneWayAround

Am I reading this wrong? Hasn't the OP said that the tenant has paid all the rent for 12 years only that she was late paying 2 or 3 times? She did however pay the rent. The landlord claims that rent is owed but the tenent denies this.
Why is everyone taking the landlords side? After 12 years the landlord hasn't even given proper notice and is now refusing to give the deposit back so the tenant can move into a new home with her kids.
OP, tell your friend to stay the 16 weeks until she can afford to move into her new home if the landlord wont pay back the deposit.

djimi

OneWayAround wrote: »

Am I reading this wrong? Hasn't the OP said that the tenant has paid all the rent for 12 years only that she was late paying 2 or 3 times? She did however pay the rent. The landlord claims that rent is owed but the tenent denies this.
Why is everyone taking the landlords side? After 12 years the landlord hasn't even given proper notice and is now refusing to give the deposit back so the tenant can move into a new home with her kids.
OP, tell your friend to stay the 16 weeks until she can afford to move into her new home if the landlord wont pay back the deposit.

Its not entirely clear what is owed. We are getting one side of the story, and it paints the picture of someone who has been rather haphazard in their approach to rent payment. It may well be that all arrears have been cleared, but if they have admitted to forgetting to pay rent on occasion, then whats to say that there arent more occasions where the rent wasnt paid and it was still outstanding?

The bottom line is that the landlord needs to be very specific about what is owed, and the tenant needs to find any and all records of rent payments (be it late or on time). Anything other than hard facts is pure guesswork. This one is not about taking sides; one party is correct and the other isnt, and it should be possible to determine which it is on paper.