Man loses Supreme Court case for bilingual jury

bumper234

Just seen this

http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0227/506982-peadar-o-maicin/

Man loses Supreme Court case for bilingual jury

A native Irish speaker who is due to go on trial for assault has lost his Supreme Court bid to have his case heard by a bilingual jury.

Peadar Ó Maicín from Rosmuc in Connemara, but who is now living in Salthill, Co Galway, is charged with producing a broken whiskey bottle and assaulting another man in Leitir Móir in 2008.

He is due to go on trial at Galway Circuit Criminal Court.

The alleged victim of the offences is also a native Irish speaker.

Mr Ó Maicín had claimed he was entitled to present his defence in Irish and to have his case heard by a jury who were sufficiently competent in Irish to hear the case without the assistance of a translator.

Should he have been afforded this? Personally i say no as it points out in the item that this would exclude a large majority of people from being able to take part in the jury.

SEPT 23 1989

here we go again

bumper234

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

here we go again

Hey it's news

GenieOz

No, he shouldn't have been afforded it. A translator is more than than sufficient.

If he wants a bilingual jury then he should campaign for it when he's not busy 'allegedly' being a scumbag assaulting people with broken bottles.

bumper234

GenieOz wrote: »

No, he shouldn't have been afforded it. A translator is more than than sufficient.

I agree, I was on jury duty last year and a Lithuanian lad was on trial charged with assault. I'm sure there would have been war if he had asked for an all Lithuanian speaking jury. I know we live in Ireland and therefore native language blah blah.

bumper234

GenieOz wrote: »

No, he shouldn't have been afforded it. A translator is more than than sufficient.

If he wants a bilingual jury then he should campaign for it when he's not busy ***********.

Now now he hasn't been found guilty yet

GenieOz

bumper234 wrote: »

Now now he hasn't been found guilty yet

You're dead right, edited that there

antodeco

An bhfuil cead agam dul go dti an leithreas, mas e do thoil e?

Nemeses

antodeco wrote: »

An bhfuil cead agam dul go dti an leithreas, mas e do thoil e?

Nil Se agam...

Bipolar Joe

antodeco wrote: »

An bhfuil cead agam dul go dti an leithreas, mas e do thoil e?

Potatoes potatoes, cabbage begorrah potatoes.

suicide_circus

bumper234 wrote: »

Just seen this

http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0227/506982-peadar-o-maicin/

Man loses Supreme Court case for bilingual jury



Should he have been afforded this? Personally i say no as it points out in the item that this would exclude a large majority of people from being able to take part in the jury.

http://f3.thejournal.ie/media/2012/11/nil2.png

shruikan2553

Translator is all he needed. Now I'll just pass this over to our Irish speaking fascists to inform us about our "culture" and "native" language.

bumper234

antodeco wrote: »

An bhfuil cead agam dul go dti an leithreas, mas e do thoil e?

That's easy for you to say.

errlloyd

His jury would be from such a small area, it'd be like a South Dubliner asking for an all D4 jury. It'd be unfair.

Santa Cruz

errlloyd wrote: »

His jury would be from such a small area, it'd be like a South Dubliner asking for an all D4 jury. It'd be unfair.

I'm sure a D4 jury would look kindly on some poor young lad from Ballybrack,

neighbours children etc.

catallus

I tend to have a sullen enviousness of those who can speak Irish. They tried to teach it to me, it just wouldn't go in. I have a better understanding of German than I do of Irish, and I only really put a half-arsed attempt into that.

Napper Hawkins

They didn't teach you, they just assumed you spoke it already and made you write essays and read ****e poetry.

Renegade Mechanic

antodeco wrote: »

An bhfuil cead agam dul go dti an leithreas, mas e do thoil e?

Where are your fadas!?
Anyway, Slawn lat.... Awgus go rev ma-hagoot a moontoor....

Tombi!

I can sympathize with it but doesn't the law only say that we have a right to have a trial through Irish and nothing about if the jury or not needs a translator?

pickarooney

Sure the jury doesn't understand half that legal mumbo-jumbo in English at the best of times. They just look at the defendant's shifty eyes or remorseful countenance and decide based on that.

stevenmu

Judge: "Chairman of the jury, have you decided on a verdict?"
Jury: "Well, we had a little trouble translating it into Irish, but I think we have it"
Judge: "Well then, read the verdict please"
Jury: "By unanimous verdict, we find the defendant: Cáca Milis"

Paramite Pie

shruikan2553 wrote: »

Translator is all he needed. Now I'll just pass this over to our Irish speaking fascists to inform us about our "culture" and "native" language.

Not everyone who speaks Irish is a 'facist'. I'm not a speaker myself but some of my friends are and they're young open-minded adults. And yes a translator was all he needed.

Napper Hawkins wrote: »

They didn't teach you, they just assumed you spoke it already and made you write essays and read ****e poetry.

Woah, that's a lot of baggage there mate. My primary school taught Irish really well but then in junior cert I had a ****e (young/inexeperienced) teacher.

In 4th year we got a new teacher who was so frustrated with the different standards of Irish among the students that he started everything over from scratch (verbs, tenses, vocab). He blamed the former teachers and not us. I went from hating Irish to looking forward to that class, he was really entertaining.:D

Legend of a teacher, never forced us to do the essays and never gave punishments to those who didn't (aka me). Thanks to him I ended up taking the honors paper.

Not everyone had your experience and not all Irish teachers are the same. Don't hate a language, just hate your teacher and other's like him.;)

Ranchu

It's only funny when Brendan does it.

http://comeheretome.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/screen-shot-2012-05-04-at-11-10-39.png

humanji

Folks, there's no need for this thread to turn into yet another "I hate Irish/I love Irish" thread. Stick to the topic.

Donkey Oaty

Paramite Pie wrote: »

In 4th year we got a new teacher who was so frustrated with the different standards of Irish among the students that he started everything over from scratch (verbs, tenses, vocab). He blamed the former teachers and not us. I went from hating Irish to looking forward to that class, he was really entertaining.:D

That's great. Sounds like you had a pragmatic guy who was actually interested in teaching the language rather than conforming to some box-ticking exercise.

How different the attitudes would be if all Irish teachers were like that.

snubbleste

I find this shocking. I would expect the Supreme Court to ensure that justice can be conducted and administered in the first language of the State..as per the Constitution that we all respect etc etc.
Take it to the ECHR a bhuachaillín.

chopper6

I wonder did he make his stetement to the guards in Irish at the time of his arrest ro ask to usee the toilet in Irish?

If he spoke one word of english during that time he's nothing but a time waster and should be found in contempt of court.

For Forks Sake

snubbleste wrote: »

I find this shocking. I would expect the Supreme Court to ensure that justice can be conducted and administered in the first language of the State..as per the Constitution that we all respect etc etc.
Take it to the ECHR a bhuachaillín.

What's the Irish for "don't feed the troll"?

Sir Humphrey Appleby

snubbleste wrote: »

I find this shocking. I would expect the Supreme Court to ensure that justice can be conducted and administered in the first language of the State..as per the Constitution that we all respect etc etc.
Take it to the ECHR a bhuachaillín.

They did ensure that justice is administered in Irish and they did so in a sensible way.

on the river

He desrvered to be spoken to in his native tongue. what a disgrace. offical language is irish and he cant even get that.

dosents say much for the constituation or the country

Sir Humphrey Appleby

on the river wrote: »

He desrvered to be spoken to in his native tongue. what a disgrace. offical language is irish and he cant even get that.

dosents say much for the constituation or the country

He will be spoken to in Irish, through an interpreter , Irish is one of the official languages of the state and not The official language.

bumper234

on the river wrote: »

He desrvered to be spoken to in his native tongue. what a disgrace. offical language is irish and he cant even get that.

dosents say much for the constituation or the country

No one is stopping him from speaking in Irish but he wants the JURY to be all native Irish speakers and does not want them to use a translator.

Robbo

bumper234 wrote: »

No one is stopping him from speaking in Irish but he wants the JURY to be all native Irish speakers and does not want them to use a translator.

Also, he was taking a bet on the fact that if a jury entirely composed of Gaelgoirs is somehow empanelled for hearing in Galway, he can raise further objections as to their impartiality and whether they may know the accused. Connemara's a small place.

It's amazing how everyone's a Constitutional lawyer, having read the blue book for 10 minutes.

on the river

Robbo wrote: »

Also, he was taking a bet on the fact that if a jury entirely composed of Gaelgoirs is somehow empanelled for hearing in Galway, he can raise further objections as to their impartiality and whether they may know the accused. Connemara's a small place.

It's amazing how everyone's a Constitutional lawyer, having read the blue book for 10 minutes.

why not. he may as well use his own circumstance to help his trial.

Another question how could he afford to pay barristers for this case and his trial ?.

he must be a rich man.

Napper Hawkins

Paramite Pie wrote: »

Woah, that's a lot of baggage there mate. My primary school taught Irish really well but then in junior cert I had a ****e (young/inexeperienced) teacher.

In 4th year we got a new teacher who was so frustrated with the different standards of Irish among the students that he started everything over from scratch (verbs, tenses, vocab). He blamed the former teachers and not us. I went from hating Irish to looking forward to that class, he was really entertaining.:D

Legend of a teacher, never forced us to do the essays and never gave punishments to those who didn't (aka me). Thanks to him I ended up taking the honors paper.

Not everyone had your experience and not all Irish teachers are the same. Don't hate a language, just hate your teacher and other's like him.;)

I never said I hated the language, just the way it was taught.
My (long dead) Grandfather was fluent, I loved hearing him speak it and any Irish I do know, I learnt from him.
But my teachers made me resent it. That was my point.

If I had been lucky enough to have a teacher like yours, I'd probably have a much better grasp and appreciation of it today.

shruikan2553

Paramite Pie wrote: »

Not everyone who speaks Irish is a 'facist'. I'm not a speaker myself but some of my friends are and they're young open-minded adults. And yes a translator was all he needed.

Most tend to be fine, the fluent speakers just treat it as another language. Its the people who learnt it in their 20s that all of a sudden become an expect in Irish culture that annoy me, also theres the people like the one mentioned above and the guy who was pulled over before that decide to use it as a way of wasting time in the hopes that they will just be let go.

ormeau 1

I thought everybody in Ireland spoke English?...said the West Brit Law Lecturer.

Cee-Jay-Cee

Was it an Irish whiskey bottle or Scotch?

Wibbs

snubbleste wrote: »

administered in the first language of the State..

Only on paper, or páipéar if you like.

OneArt

Paramite Pie wrote: »

Not everyone who speaks Irish is a 'facist'. I'm not a speaker myself but some of my friends are and they're young open-minded adults. And yes a translator was all he needed.



Woah, that's a lot of baggage there mate. My primary school taught Irish really well but then in junior cert I had a ****e (young/inexeperienced) teacher.

In 4th year we got a new teacher who was so frustrated with the different standards of Irish among the students that he started everything over from scratch (verbs, tenses, vocab). He blamed the former teachers and not us. I went from hating Irish to looking forward to that class, he was really entertaining.:D

Legend of a teacher, never forced us to do the essays and never gave punishments to those who didn't (aka me). Thanks to him I ended up taking the honors paper.

Not everyone had your experience and not all Irish teachers are the same. Don't hate a language, just hate your teacher and other's like him.;)

Every Irish teacher I had did exactly the same thing. It's how the curriculum is set up: it assumes you speak Irish to at least a C1 level which is not the case for many people.

That being said, the Irish teacher I had through most of secondary school was great craic and did her best to get us through the exam. But it wasn't enjoyable and I never got a basic grounding in the language. As a language I think its fascinating with all of its cases and weird inflections, but in school it was a nightmare. If I'd studied it as a foreign language or from a linguistic perspective I know I would've enjoyed it more. Instead it was just assumed I could speak it and that's how the majority of teachers teach it.

ZeitgeistGlee

From a purely academic standpoint I'm curious as to how he believes he's entitled to a bilingual jury as opposed to his defence being merely translated from Irish to English for the benefit of those non-proficient in Irish.

From a practical standpoint it reeks of disingenuousness in the same manner of road offenders suddenly struck by a desire to be dealt with through Irish alone. At least this nonsense can't be challenged any higher up now. Really it's a pity so many of the genuine lovers of Irish are marred by actions of the few self-servers like this.

Femme_Fatale

ormeau 1 wrote: »

I thought everybody in Ireland spoke English?...said the West Brit Law Lecturer.

Well it's pretty much true.

oppenheimer1

snubbleste wrote: »

I find this shocking. I would expect the Supreme Court to ensure that justice can be conducted and administered in the first language of the State..as per the Constitution that we all respect etc etc.
Take it to the ECHR a bhuachaillín.

If the case succeeded, then the vast majority of the population would be excluded from being able to participate in a jury. Untold amounts of trials would collapse if everyone demanded an Irish jury.

bumper234

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

If the case succeeded, then the vast majority of the population would be excluded from being able to participate in a jury. Untold amounts of trials would collapse if everyone demanded an Irish jury.

Would it not also set a precedent where someone from Spain/Poland/Nigeria could insist on a jury made up solely of people who speak their language?

anncoates

Is he technically a Rosmuc Savage?

snubbleste

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

If the case succeeded, then the vast majority of the population would be excluded from being able to participate in a jury. Untold amounts of trials would collapse if everyone demanded an Irish jury.

Everyone is entitled to conduct their business with the State in Irish - even if there exists no Irish speakers. I would've thought that the Supreme Court would follow the Bunreacht rather than refer to common sense.

Sir Humphrey Appleby

snubbleste wrote: »

Everyone is entitled to conduct their business with the State in Irish - even if there exists no Irish speakers. I would've thought that the Supreme Court would follow the Bunreacht rather than refer to common sense.

They followed the Constitution and did so with supreme common sense.
This guys business will be carried out in Irish.

bumper234

snubbleste wrote: »

Everyone is entitled to conduct their business with the State in Irish - even if there exists no Irish speakers. I would've thought that the Supreme Court would follow the Bunreacht rather than refer to common sense.

No one is saying he can't "conduct his business" in Irish, this guy wants an ALL IRISH SPEAKING jury with no translators involved.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

bumper234

Fred Swanson wrote: »

Which is totally unworkable.

And i would guess unconstitutional due to the fact it would eliminate the majority of the populace from serving.

Iwasfrozen

snubbleste wrote: »

Everyone is entitled to conduct their business with the State in Irish - even if there exists no Irish speakers. I would've thought that the Supreme Court would follow the Bunreacht rather than refer to common sense.

Where does it say that in the constitution?