Extra curricular - I'm furious!

Bananaleaf · 26-02-2014 12:29am #1

Had a parent teacher meeting today. For an exam year group.

Had comments from two parents that have left me reeling, hours after the meeting.

The first asked why sons grades were low. I explained he misses on average 2 class periods weekly due to extra curricular. Parents reply: is he not given time to catch up on missed notes in the next class? I say, we'll no, as we have a course to cover, the understanding is that when at extra curricular the student will endeavour to catch up themselves. Parents response: well what endeavours have you made to catch him up? Have you typed up the notes he has missed? Printed them off?

Second parent, same situation, but regarding test scores. I explain I have few results for X because when tests are on he is either extra curricular or absent. Parents response: well, can he not catch up on missed tests the next day? Me: counterproductive unless I stay behind and do the test with him at 4pm, as doing it during class time means he's falling behind on new material. Parent: well, can you do that then?

Now, I will admit that I am not sporty myself and as a student would have preferred the academics over the sports, so I'm starting off biased of course, but WHEN in gods name did it become my problem that these kids have opted to do these sports and have failed to manage their academics at the same time???

I really resent the fact that if I have students in my classes who wish to do sport, who wish to take on that extra commitment, that I am expected to put in the extra hours of catch up on their behalf.

School is very sports orientated and full of yes people. I'm not permanent so feel under a barrel here. Rural school with much community spirit so parents hold a lot of weight.

Part rant, part seeking advice.

Am I a bad teacher for saying these things? Is it time to start considering leaving the profession if this is my outlook? I'm just exasperated! In another 2nd yr class I have, over half of them were gone to various sports matches today! I'd 17 students missing. That would mean printing off 17 sets of notes in my spare time, which involves booking a computer, signing out paper etc.. All in my own time when I'm not teaching, correcting, planning, doing my S&S, when they could just get the notes off a friend.

There could be as many as 3 different teams out in a given day, albeit a rare occasion when it's that many.

Any responses welcome. I just need some kind of advice, couldn't even sound off anyone in school, they're all such 'yes' people. I'm afraid I would come off as lazy, when I'm anything but. I'm very busy because I do a lot of prep and correcting.

Will stop typing now !!

seavill · 26-02-2014 9:47am

I would look at it two ways. I would be of the opinion that I need to assist in making notes etc. available to those gone to matches and they need to take responsibility for looking after that.

I would presume that most of your notes are typed up anyway. If so (not sure if this is available in your school) I put all my notes up on the school moodle account and anybody that is out can get them at their leisure. I make it very clear that I expect anyone gone anywhere or even sick to catch up on anything they missed as I have made the info available.
The other option is to set up (if you don't already have one) a school email account. Again you probably have the info typed so very quickly send off an email. Again students responsibility to transfer notes. I again make it clear that they must write out the notes like those in class did as opposed to just sticking them in. (unless its a long term absence)
Each time you are playing your part and they are responsible for catching up themselves

In relation to tests you are correct it would be counter productive for the missing student to effectively miss another class the next day by resitting a test. I would again always offer them the opportunity to do the test (that way you can't have any parents giving out). I would set up a system that you don't correct the tests until the end of the 3rd day. Day 1 those in class do the test, day 2 those absent yesterday can take a copy of the test home to do in their own time and return it to you on day 3. You then still only have one day of correcting tests. Again make it very clear this is now the set up.

I would do the same with notes. Each powerpoint or document one group email if anyone is missing. Very quick and easy, and then it is their responsibility

This way parents can't give out each time you are giving the kids a chance to catch up without creating any extra work for yourself apart from sending one email or putting things up on moddle once.

TheDriver · 26-02-2014 11:05am

I concur with seavil and those parents are out of line in demanding such things, possibly part of it is because you are newer to the school and they may feel they can control your teaching. Putting notes in things like moodle is great because it makes them get them and also allows you to see if the kids went to get them. The fact is that the students are absent to progress and its not your problem to deal with people catching up all the time.

One thing, be careful with "school email addresses" because child protection means there should be no closed means of communication between teacher and students. Way around this is to have the password given to principal so in theory it can be looked at every now and then. Make sure all incoming and outgoing mail is kept for a time.

Crazyteacher · 26-02-2014 4:38pm

TheDriver wrote: »

I concur with seavil and those parents are out of line in demanding such things, possibly part of it is because you are newer to the school and they may feel they can control your teaching. Putting notes in things like moodle is great because it makes them get them and also allows you to see if the kids went to get them. The fact is that the students are absent to progress and its not your problem to
deal with people catching up all the time.

One thing, be careful with "school email addresses" because child protection means there should be no closed means of communication between teacher and students. Way around this is to have the password given to principal so in theory it can be looked at every now and then. Make sure all incoming and outgoing mail is kept for a time.

Would an open to all blog be better for the OP?

solerina · 26-02-2014 6:04pm

As far as Im concerned I teach the class, if someone is absent its their job to catch up on whatever they have missed....If they don't I cant be blamed...I did my job !!! I make this quite clear to all students at the start of each academic year.
However if they don't understand something I covered then I have no problem going over it with them should they ask !!!
The parents you are dealing with need to wise up...its not your fault their little darlings missed your class !!!

vamos! · 26-02-2014 6:11pm

We don't have the most reliable computer system so I don't use moodle. I expect all students to have the notes by the next day if they are at a match. I give the handouts to their friends or leave them in the office. Students always cooperate. Obviously students have more than one day if they are away until late in the evening. The parents are out of line here. There really is is only so much you can do and chasing individuals in a school where sport is big. I certainly don't have enough time to individually meet every student who misses a class. We have rugby,athletics, camogie, hockey, basketball and football gone almost every Wednesday as well as debating. YSI, Young Scientists, and a million other groups I have forgotten about. They have to take responsibility for themselves.

Afroshack · 26-02-2014 6:23pm

I had this as well with my GCSE coursework students. They would frequently miss class to attend matches/sports, even on days that they were writing and submitting coursework. No matter how much I tried to drill it into them that their GCSE's cannot simply be retaken, some of them didn't show up and actually looked surprised when I wouldn't let them sit the paper a week later in class. I'd actually draw up a contract with the students, written into their books and signed that states that they are responsible for catching up with their work and for getting the classwork/homework off you the day before they are due to be absent. Put everything on Edmodo. Then give them a detention if they have not done the questions etc

teacherhead · 26-02-2014 6:56pm

In our school if you come back from a match etc without homework done you don't go to the next one. If on report no extra curricular at all.

it depends on the culture in your school, maybe ask colleagues and find out. Like, if they go to Disneyland for two weeks are you expected to catch them up too?

Bananaleaf · 26-02-2014 7:03pm

Hi guys, thanks for replies.

We did have a Moodle style situation, but when our VEC amalgamated with another, it disappeared. We have been promised a new system, but still waiting.

Same with email system. New staff ones have been set up, but new students ones are very problematic, with some of them not working at all. Against policy to mail to private mails.

The blog could work, I'll try this. Still though, for some students, I feel that because of the impact of sport they are pretty much teaching themselves via my notes - yet it is my name attached to their grade, you know?

School is huge on sport (ill give you an example, tomorrow there is an away match, and a separate coach is being organised for students who want to take the day off to watch - I think that's mental!) but school is also big on academics. I'm worried about the kinds of grades some of these students will end up with.

I'm just amazed at the parents and their ideas. I can just imagine the bad mouthing that goes on about the 'lazy teacher who does nothing with them'

Also, thing is, a lot of my power points are not designed in a way that they can be used by the student independently. For example, I teach a language so some power points can just be a series of images and we illicit vocabulary in class. Or a selection of oral questions that we discuss, or images to promote discussion on a contemporary topic. So it is actually extra work to tailor them for independent learning.

Bananaleaf · 26-02-2014 7:12pm

teacherhead wrote: »

In our school if you come back from a match etc without homework done you don't go to the next one. If on report no extra curricular at all.

it depends on the culture in your school, maybe ask colleagues and find out. Like, if they go to Disneyland for two weeks are you expected to catch them up too?

Hi

That is the policy in the school but it means nothing. In fact I was jokingly, 'jokingly' told by deputy principal to 'calm down' when I went to him with a list of names. I only went to him after I had gone to e teacher involved in sports teams, and he rolled his eyes up to heaven at me.

One student was banned from extra curricular one ONE occasion for being a repeat offender, but was taken to the match anyway because it was an important game

:rolleyes:

Pwpane · 26-02-2014 7:39pm

I tell my students at the start of the year, that they must each organise a mate within the class that they contact for homework and notes when they miss a class. It is the student's responsibility to get these. This is second level, not primary...

acequion · 26-02-2014 7:48pm

Bananaleaf, you have my full and utter sympathies. I read this thread about an hour ago,ironically at a parent /teacher meeting, while waiting for the last few parents to trickle in. I was fuming on your behalf and fuming as well at some of the earlier replies.Is there no end to the unreasonable demands on teachers! Or no end to those who say "how high" to jump! You were actually bullied by those parents!

It is absolutely NOT your responsibility to ensure that a student catches up. Granted you are worried about the exam results but there really isn't much you can do if the student does not attend class. You shouldn't even have to facilitate their catch up by trying to organise blogs etc. I also teach languages and as you say there is no tidy set of class notes that they can cram.The work is done in class.Period. And if a student is absent he must contact a friend,take relevant notes from the friend's copy and find out about homework to be done for next day. Kids are spoilt for choice nowadays in ways to contact each other with all the means available. And taking personal responsibility is an essential part of their general education.

Your school sounds very unreasonable in the way they organise their extra curricular in that there is a huge impact on class time. Personally,I go mad when my students are taken from me for different things and I make a right fuss about it to management. My point being twofold.One, extra curricular is meant to be "extra" to class, and two, one of the main justifications of the Croke Park hours is to maximise tuition time and minimise disturbances. You were at said P/T meeting in the evening so that it wouldn't disrupt your tuition time,yet your tuition is being hugely disrupted by extra curricular. Something very wrong there. Or are you,and all us teachers,just the doormat? My blood boils! No wonder leaving the profession crosses your mind.

I realise that you're not permanent and, like so many others, are in a vulnerable position. But your resentment and indignation are entirely understandable.

evolving_doors · 26-02-2014 7:58pm

I can understand that some subjects need notes ...to an extent...would the same parents be asking the maths teachers for 'the notes'?
The more notes you provide the less they are concerned about attending...'ah shur I'll get the notes later'...in the end they'll invariably end up looking for the 'institute ' notes because they're much better..

If notes were what they need then tell em to Google the topic. Plenty of notes on there.

seavill · 26-02-2014 8:08pm

acequion wrote: »

fuming as well at some of the earlier replies.Is there no end to the unreasonable demands on teachers! Or no end to those who say "how high" to jump! You were actually bullied by those parents!

I take issue with what you say here criticising the way I do things. It is certainly not a case of me asking "how high" to jump to peoples demands.

The OP came on here asking for advice, that was my advice based on what I do, it is not done in any way to suck up or please those higher up. I am permanent so jumping to the tune of the principal is very low on my list of priorities.

My personal opinion on the use of things like Moodle etc. is that they are a great resource available to me and others. I use it as a place where my notes are available to my students for revision and also as a bonus for those missing through illness/match etc. It takes me a grand total of 10 seconds to put something up on the Moodle which I don't feel is anything too much to ask. Once there it is there forever until I want to take it down.
It also removes any chance for excuses by the kids or it also removes any opportunity for the parents to accuse us of anything. The responsibility is put back on the student and there is no extra work on my part

I don't think the OP mentioned (or I missed it) initially that they were a languages teacher so they may have altered the responses however I know our Spanish and French teachers make massive use of Moodle also.

And finally in relation to your point about extra curricular things being extra outside of class time, firstly I don't think you will find it anywhere that it says extra curricular activities must happen outside of school and you will find the majority have happened within school time since the dawn of time so I'm not sure where the sudden issue would occur.

You can also make the point that the extra curricular activities don't necessarily mean matches so those against sports need to look at the broader picture. I had 3 missing from my class today gone on a music trip (the music class went off) not a match but still missed class. You could talk about a speaker for a particular subject coming in also. All of this would lead to students missing class and notes and nothing to do with sports.

theLuggage · 26-02-2014 8:26pm

In our school the policy is students are to catch up on work missed. It's their own responsibility and in my opinion an important lesson to learn, how to juggle school and extra-curricular.

I don't provide notes or opportunities for students to catch up on missed tests. That's my choice. If I happen to have notes on the day I'll hold a copy for them, likewise for the test. Definitely think some parents are for the birds and expect you to spoonfeed their children.

Like a previous poster said, if a student has made an effort to catch up and is stuck or doesn't understand, then I'll give them a hand if they ask, not a problem. Or if I can briefly recap in the next class in a few minutes or better still get another student to explain then I'll do that.

Sharing resources online is great and I'm hoping to put a lot of my material up as I go along. But I certainly wouldn't feel under pressure from parents to do it. I'll do it in my own time and as suits me.

derb12 · 26-02-2014 8:41pm

As far as students missing tests goes - I give them the test to do at home and when they give it back to me next day I ask them how long they spent on it (I would have told them how long to spend) and was it all their own work.
Mostly it works out fine. Sometimes we get a strange spike in their results, where they hand in their best test ever (!) but I keep a note in my planner that the test was done at home.
If I had more than 1/3 missing from a class I would do something useful but not strictly on the curriculum with the rest of the class.
If students missing so many days is the norm, the OP might be better off accepting it and planning accordingly, with new material covered when the whole class is there and consolidation done on the days that some are missing.

doc_17 · 26-02-2014 9:10pm

To the OP: my advice is not to worry about it all. Next time explain that you expect absent students to catch up on missed content.

But on a general note extra-curricular activities are great for the school and students and should only be viewed as positive. Yeah it might impact on your class the odd time but surely school is about more than exams and notes? Isn't that what we're always saying?

Think of the academically weak child who will always put the test that you hand back into their bag as soon as you hand it back out of fear that the people around will see the result. Yet their only shining light, in what they might otherwise view as a difficult environment, might be something in extra curricular that they excel at.

And no, extra-curricular does not mean it has to happen outside school time. By its definition it means it is extra to the curriculum. Not sure how that means it must be restricted to outside school time.

In my staff room there is the odd bit of whinging about students missing class the odd time. This comes from people who never involve themselves in anything extra-curricular. Maybe if they did they would realise the importance it can play in some students school lives.

acequion · 26-02-2014 9:10pm

seavill wrote: »

I take issue with what you say here criticising the way I do things. It is certainly not a case of me asking "how high" to jump to peoples demands.

The OP came on here asking for advice, that was my advice based on what I do, it is not done in any way to suck up or please those higher up. I am permanent so jumping to the tune of the principal is very low on my list of priorities.

My personal opinion on the use of things like Moodle etc. is that they are a great resource available to me and others. I use it as a place where my notes are available to my students for revision and also as a bonus for those missing through illness/match etc. It takes me a grand total of 10 seconds to put something up on the Moodle which I don't feel is anything too much to ask. Once there it is there forever until I want to take it down.
It also removes any chance for excuses by the kids or it also removes any opportunity for the parents to accuse us of anything. The responsibility is put back on the student and there is no extra work on my part

I don't think the OP mentioned (or I missed it) initially that they were a languages teacher so they may have altered the responses however I know our Spanish and French teachers make massive use of Moodle also.

And finally in relation to your point about extra curricular things being extra outside of class time, firstly I don't think you will find it anywhere that it says extra curricular activities must happen outside of school and you will find the majority have happened within school time since the dawn of time so I'm not sure where the sudden issue would occur.

You can also make the point that the extra curricular activities don't necessarily mean matches so those against sports need to look at the broader picture. I had 3 missing from my class today gone on a music trip (the music class went off) not a match but still missed class. You could talk about a speaker for a particular subject coming in also. All of this would lead to students missing class and notes and nothing to do with sports.

Really seavill it's too bad if you take issue because I wasn't criticising the way you personally do anything,though your reply was indeed the main one I was referring to. And you've just reminded me of the main reason why. I have an issue with this notion that we must constantly justify ourselves to parents and that we mustn't give parents reason to accuse us of anything. The current attitude to teachers is unjustifiably negative and therefore parents,as members of the general public, will always find a stick to bash us with. Only a small minority,thankfully, and I feel that the type of parents who bullied the OP with their utterly unreasonable attitude, aren't worth worrying about.

Regarding extra curricular,why are they called "extra" or "co" curricular if not for the very reason that they are additional to curricular, which is class. And do you not think that class should be respected and interferences kept to a minimum?Do you not think that sending a message to the student that class can be missed for any reason is not somehow undermining class? And in these times of huge expectations for good results and high points,how can students be expected to juggle everything? Not to mention the teacher, who is held accountable for the grade of each student in the class. I also disagree with your point that extra curricular always encroached on classes. Not in my time they didn't,nowhere remotely near the way they do now in any case.And when I was coaching debating teams back about 15 years ago,many teachers told me bluntly that they did not want their students missing classes. And I respected that. Granted, we all need to be flexible to work harmoniously together. And the odd bit of disruption is unavoidable. However lately it appears to be abused, which,among other things,is a disrespect of the teacher and an undermining of that class.It implies that the extra curricular is more important. But who ever got their points through extra curricular?

Lastly,yes I completely agree that a good,efficient,moodle system is an excellent resource. But not every school has that.We did have moodle which,for reasons I'm not aware of,didn't work very well. We're currently researching edmodo and the sooner,the better,as far as I'm concerned.

Inspector Coptoor · 26-02-2014 9:21pm

Set up an Edmodo account.
Get all the kids in your class to sign up.
Bring them to the computer room for a class, get them on board.
Put all your notes/powerpoints up there.
That way, if a student misses a class, he/she can access the notes.
I regularly give homework & context the students en masse with this fantastic educational tool.
They can access it on desktops, tablets and even their phones.

If they miss a test, have a spare copy of the test, give it to them to bring home with a note in the journal, tell the parents to time then for 30-40 mins, however long a class period is & request the parent sign it that it was done closed book & then correct it.

OP, you do come across as very biased against sports/don't have an understanding if the appeal, and that's your right, but you have to be a bit flexible with the kids, especially the ones who live to play sport & find it their only outlet to shine.

Inspector Coptoor · 26-02-2014 9:24pm

acequion wrote: »

Really seavill it's too bad if you take issue because I wasn't criticising the way you personally do anything,though your reply was indeed the main one I was referring to. And you've just reminded me of the main reason why. I have an issue with this notion that we must constantly justify ourselves to parents and that we mustn't give parents reason to accuse us of anything. The current attitude to teachers is unjustifiably negative and therefore parents,as members of the general public, will always find a stick to bash us with. Only a small minority,thankfully, and I feel that the type of parents who bullied the OP with their utterly unreasonable attitude, aren't worth worrying about.

Regarding extra curricular,why are they called "extra" or "co" curricular if not for the very reason that they are additional to curricular, which is class. And do you not think that class should be respected and interferences kept to a minimum?Do you not think that sending a message to the student that class can be missed for any reason is not somehow undermining class? And in these times of huge expectations for good results and high points,how can students be expected to juggle everything? Not to mention the teacher, who is held accountable for the grade of each student in the class. I also disagree with your point that extra curricular always encroached on classes. Not in my time they didn't,nowhere remotely near the way they do now in any case.And when I was coaching debating teams back about 15 years ago,many teachers told me bluntly that they did not want their students missing classes. And I respected that. Granted, we all need to be flexible to work harmoniously together. And the odd bit of disruption is unavoidable. However lately it appears to be abused, which,among other things,is a disrespect of the teacher and an undermining of that class.It implies that the extra curricular is more important. But who ever got their points through extra curricular?

Lastly,yes I completely agree that a good,efficient,moodle system is an excellent resource. But not every school has that.We did have moodle which,for reasons I'm not aware of,didn't work very well. We're currently researching edmodo and the sooner,the better,as far as I'm concerned.

Ah here, ever hear of holistic development?

seavill · 26-02-2014 9:27pm

acequion wrote: »

Really seavill it's too bad if you take issue because I wasn't criticising the way you personally do anything,though your reply was indeed the main one I was referring to. And you've just reminded me of the main reason why. I have an issue with this notion that we must constantly justify ourselves to parents and that we mustn't give parents reason to accuse us of anything. The current attitude to teachers is unjustifiably negative and therefore parents,as members of the general public, will always find a stick to bash us with. Only a small minority,thankfully, and I feel that the type of parents who bullied the OP with their utterly unreasonable attitude, aren't worth worrying about.

Regarding extra curricular,why are they called "extra" or "co" curricular if not for the very reason that they are additional to curricular, which is class. And do you not think that class should be respected and interferences kept to a minimum?Do you not think that sending a message to the student that class can be missed for any reason is not somehow undermining class? And in these times of huge expectations for good results and high points,how can students be expected to juggle everything? Not to mention the teacher, who is held accountable for the grade of each student in the class. I also disagree with your point that extra curricular always encroached on classes. Not in my time they didn't,nowhere remotely near the way they do now in any case.And when I was coaching debating teams back about 15 years ago,many teachers told me bluntly that they did not want their students missing classes. And I respected that. Granted, we all need to be flexible to work harmoniously together. And the odd bit of disruption is unavoidable. However lately it appears to be abused, which,among other things,is a disrespect of the teacher and an undermining of that class.It implies that the extra curricular is more important. But who ever got their points through extra curricular?

Lastly,yes I completely agree that a good,efficient,moodle system is an excellent resource. But not every school has that.We did have moodle which,for reasons I'm not aware of,didn't work very well. We're currently researching edmodo and the sooner,the better,as far as I'm concerned.

You were criticizing my post which was the way I do things, which in turn does criticize the way I do things, whether you realise that or not.

I don't try justify myself to any parents, where in any post on this website have I every said that. I simply made the point that I use Moodle as a resource, and as a consequence of that it happens to add to the situation. By accident almost it doesn't allow the parent to judge/criticise me in any way. It is the exact same thing as telling the kids you must get the notes from one of your friends. How is it any different apart from the fact that instead of being in a copy mine is online. I think you have got carried away having a go and missed that your points contradict themselves. It is the exact same thing just in a different format. The kid is still responsible for their own actions.

"co" would be 'with' or 'complimentary' to the curriculum. They together make up the student life in school.

I have no issue with people that don't do extra curricular, whether it be sports or debating or subject field trips I would say that every teacher has taken students out of class at some stage.
Since I have been in school matches, debates, choir, geography field trips etc. all take place within school time. A history or english speaker coming in takes place during my class time. All part and parcel of a school day. am I happy about it no, is it under my control when my match is played? NO it is not it has to be played during school time thats how the system works.
There is no point in blaming the teacher that brings them away.

If there is an issue in a school and the staff feel strongly about it then it needs to be discussed.

I actually completely disagree with your last point about it being more of an issue now than before. I find the complete opposite. In this school and my last school since CP was introduced trips/matches etc. have been controlled much more than ever before.
Even when a student myself there was always a couple of things going on at the same time. For the last 5 years in the schools I have been involved in, there is only allowed be ONE activity a day, whether that be and English speaker to a match or whatever. I find this spreads things out massivly.

It may not be more important that points but there is also more to school than points. We are there to educate the whole student not just get them points. Trips/matches/debating lead to kids making more friends, interacting with teachers, getting away from the pressures of school, maybe getting a game where they would never get one on a club team, learning how to speak in public, performing music in public for possibly the first time ever, learning new skills and talents they would never learn without being in school. The list goes on and on.

No it should not have a detrimental impact on their education, I don't think you will find anyone that would think like that, but it is also part and parcel of our education system, thankfully in my opinion and there are ways of dealing with it.
I don't think the OP should be bowing down before the parents but simply have a system in place to cover these instances, if the parents and principal accept that X student is missing every wednesday playing a match there is little you can do about it only make them aware of it.

acequion · 26-02-2014 9:29pm

@derb12 When teachers have to do 45 extra hours per year, in the evenings, after a day at school,one of the main reasons being to minimise disruption to tuition,I certainly would not accept that disruption to tuition from extra curricular should become the norm.I also would not be prepared to have to constantly modify my lessons to accommodate this. This implies that class and a teacher's work is less important than the extra curricular activity.

@doc 17 You seem to disapprove of teachers who never take part in extra curricular, as if they were somehow remiss in not being prepared to give up their time to do unpaid extra work. Furthermore your comment about teachers who "whinge" is patronising. Be assured that teachers are well aware of the limitations of their different students and well aware that extra activities can make a tremendous difference.But please understand that not every teacher wishes or has time /energy to get involved and that a teacher has every right to "whinge" if there are students constantly missing and then not catching up and having their parents blame the teacher as happened to the OP.

acequion · 26-02-2014 9:41pm

seavill wrote: »

You were criticizing my post which was the way I do things, which in turn does criticize the way I do things, whether you realise that or not.

I don't try justify myself to any parents, where in any post on this website have I every said that. I simply made the point that I use Moodle as a resource, and as a consequence of that it happens to add to the situation. By accident almost it doesn't allow the parent to judge/criticise me in any way. It is the exact same thing as telling the kids you must get the notes from one of your friends. How is it any different apart from the fact that instead of being in a copy mine is online. I think you have got carried away having a go and missed that your points contradict themselves. It is the exact same thing just in a different format. The kid is still responsible for their own actions.

"co" would be 'with' or 'complimentary' to the curriculum. They together make up the student life in school.

I have no issue with people that don't do extra curricular, whether it be sports or debating or subject field trips I would say that every teacher has taken students out of class at some stage.
Since I have been in school matches, debates, choir, geography field trips etc. all take place within school time. A history or english speaker coming in takes place during my class time. All part and parcel of a school day. am I happy about it no, is it under my control when my match is played? NO it is not it has to be played during school time thats how the system works.
There is no point in blaming the teacher that brings them away.

If there is an issue in a school and the staff feel strongly about it then it needs to be discussed.

I actually completely disagree with your last point about it being more of an issue now than before. I find the complete opposite. In this school and my last school since CP was introduced trips/matches etc. have been controlled much more than ever before.
Even when a student myself there was always a couple of things going on at the same time. For the last 5 years in the schools I have been involved in, there is only allowed be ONE activity a day, whether that be and English speaker to a match or whatever. I find this spreads things out massivly.

It may not be more important that points but there is also more to school than points. We are there to educate the whole student not just get them points. Trips/matches/debating lead to kids making more friends, interacting with teachers, getting away from the pressures of school, maybe getting a game where they would never get one on a club team, learning how to speak in public, performing music in public for possibly the first time ever, learning new skills and talents they would never learn without being in school. The list goes on and on.

No it should not have a detrimental impact on their education, I don't think you will find anyone that would think like that, but it is also part and parcel of our education system, thankfully in my opinion and there are ways of dealing with it.
I don't think the OP should be bowing down before the parents but simply have a system in place to cover these instances, if the parents and principal accept that X student is missing every wednesday playing a match there is little you can do about it only make them aware of it.

Have it your own way seavill! The fact of the matter is that I completely disagree with a lot of what you write as I generally disagree with most of your posts and I have no intention in spending my evening going backwards and forwards with you. I stand over everything I say. I am fully entitled to my opinion as you are yours.

@Inspector Coptor, of course I have heard of and agree with holistic education. What I don't agree with is excessive disruption to class. I also have an issue in this post HR climate with the amount of teachers doing so much extra unpaid work. I think the time has very much come to pull back on all of that.That is a separate issue,but linked,as many of the missing class cases are due to extra curriculars provided by teachers for free.

Inspector Coptoor · 26-02-2014 9:51pm

I have no issue with doing extra curricular work for free.

I'm in the job not just to teach various curricula, but to try to have a positive impact on the students in my care outside of the classroom.
I also feel that there aren't many courses that take the full 3 or 2 years.
I finished my JC course in November & will finish my LC course next week & that includes a huge number of disruptions.

I have upskilled as a coach many times in the last few years and am doing these courses to improve the impact I have on developing players.
I enjoy it & I'll continue to do it until I no longer enjoy it.
I won't be pulling back from any extra curricular, HRA or no.

seavill · 26-02-2014 9:52pm

acequion wrote: »

Have it your own way seavill! The fact of the matter is that I completely disagree with a lot of what you write as I generally disagree with most of your posts and I have no intention in spending my evening going backwards and forwards with you. I stand over everything I say. I am fully entitled to my opinion as you are yours.

Amazing the entire post and all you say is I don't like you, I don't like anything you say on this site so I'm not talking to you.
No wonder you gave up the debating. (by the way most of the last post wasn't directed at you was just points in general)

OP like I said I don't for a second think anyone should have to justify themselves to a parent when the issue is something which they control (their child going off to matches or whatever the activity is I think referring to matches in paticular kind of throws the discussion off point to an extent). If your child is going to school with a gear bag every day its not for PE so the parents know what is going on.
The point is like others have their ways of dealing with it, whether its Edmondo, Moodle, email, or the class rule once its in place, and you state this to the parents they have no grounds to argue. If the rule is you have 48 hours to get anything that you missed thats the rule (Whether its by electronic means or otherwise). You can then simply state this to parents if they question.
If two happened to say it on the same day to me it sounds like they may have had that conversation while waiting for another teacher and that was prepared.

If you are alone in the opinion of activities having a massive impact on students and the teachers or principal are not listening then in reality there isn't a lot you can do. If there are others that agree then maybe get together and try bring it up at a staff meeting.

I would refrain from taking the stance that those that are doing activities are all "yes" men as you referred to in your first post (not sure was this at those that do activities or just those people are that way in general). If it referred to those doing activities, personally, the only reason I do sport in school is I enjoy it. I enjoy getting out of the place every now and then, I enjoy seeing them enjoying things, I enjoy getting to know the kids on a different level so its not for pleasing the principal or parents I do it. If you were referring to them in general ignore that last point

doc_17 · 26-02-2014 9:57pm

acequion wrote: »

@derb12 When teachers have to do 45 extra hours per year, in the evenings, after a day at school,one of the main reasons being to minimise disruption to tuition,I certainly would not accept that disruption to tuition from extra curricular should become the norm.I also would not be prepared to have to constantly modify my lessons to accommodate this. This implies that class and a teacher's work is less important than the extra curricular activity.

@doc 17 You seem to disapprove of teachers who never take part in extra curricular, as if they were somehow remiss in not being prepared to give up their time to do unpaid extra work. Furthermore your comment about teachers who "whinge" is patronising. Be assured that teachers are well aware of the limitations of their different students and well aware that extra activities can make a tremendous difference.But please understand that not every teacher wishes or has time /energy to get involved and that a teacher has every right to "whinge" if there are students constantly missing and then not catching up and having their parents blame the teacher as happened to the OP.

I did address the OP's concerns and a very brief but of advice. I also mentioned a few other things. Yes people whinge. It isn't patronising to accurately describe behaviour that people are engaged in. I don't disapprove of teachers who do not get involved in extra-curricular. Apologies if that's how it came across. I do disapprove of teachers who only value points. I hope that comes across very clear.

I completely disapprove of the "oh you're missing because you're away at football and that inconveniences me" brigade. It isn't great for the morale of a staff room. But I am not surprised. In all walks of life there are people who will always complain about anything they get a chance to complain about.

The OP was put in a difficult position. I honestly believe that is where experience would help a lot. Had it happened me in my first couple of years teaching I might have worried about it. But not now. No way.

whiteandlight · 26-02-2014 10:00pm

Warning to all posters to cool it. Attack the post not the poster.
Any further posting in this manner will result in infractions.

Do not respond to moderator instructions on thread.

sadie06 · 26-02-2014 10:08pm

One word: Edmodo.

All teachers and schools should be signed up to it. It is by far the easiest way to share resources with an entire group.

Bananaleaf · 26-02-2014 10:17pm

Thanks for replies.

I am more into the academics yes, but I do understand this idea of sport being the only outlet for some students to shine. But on some level I'm sorry, this is just a cop-out.

I'm not suggesting that extra curricular should be banned, and I know it encompasses more than sport, it's just that in our school sport is the problem. Art students, music students, they always catch up.

Some sports students do too, and that's fine. But some don't. And according to parents, it's my job to chase them up on it.

It's great that X shines on the football field, but does that excuse him from doing his class work? Is that not teaching him a really poor lesson in life? Okay, he's failing all his subjects because he's never there, but look at how proud he is of his trophy.

Sport or any kind of exercise is very good for students. It gives them a break from work. That's great. But they need to learn to juggle. Teachers who go to matches don't expect students to set cover work for themselves in teachers absence, so we should be teaching students the same.

It teaches them how to work with others too, that's great. But they'll need the grades to get the job that will allow them to put these skills into action later in life.

The blog is a great idea and one I hadn't thought of. I'm going to use that. Will also serve as a kind of an 'iCloud' for my materials too!

evolving_doors · 26-02-2014 10:24pm

I dont think the intention of the OP was to start a debate about the merits or demerits of extra curricular per se. It's the expectation that is being placed on them to 'catch up' the student. Bare in mind the first student missed about 2 periods a week on an ongoing basis.

Also the whole 'notes thing' is a smoke screen, no amount of notes can help 'teach' the student. The student needs to be taught, he needs to be sitting in the class. Ya sure the odd class missing is fair enough but by the sounds of things he is missing half the course!

Every day we have a few students out from classes, they know the deal, ask for permission to leave from all the relevant teachers in the preceding days ( it's just common courtesy, the teacher also has the right to refuse but rarely does). If there are notes given that day then they are given to another student to pass them on, it's not the teachers job to be chasing them down with notes in hand, nor is it the teachers job to be creating notes especially for the students who are absent (like the op's example of the 17 students out).

I think the OP is justified in raising concerns as obviously the responsibility for the students grades is being placed squarely on his shoulders.

In terms of advice OP.. you would need to find out exactly what the other teachers do. In the meantime though you would have to 'tow the party line' or else you are the one being the trouble maker etc! Maybe relay your concerns to the vice principal.. or ask that student's year head about what to do if a student has an unusual amount of absences from class. If you don't register your concerns with someone else now, then the proverbial will hit the fan when the results come out... and you know who'll be blamed.

I'd say bite the bullet for now... provide some notes in some form... ring the parents and tell them you are doing so, chances are the student won;t benefit no matter how detailed 'the notes' are. But at least the parents now know it's up to their kid now. If the results don;t improve you are in the clear and the ball is in their court.

The odd class missed for extra curricular..sport or music whatever.. is inevitable. There'll be peaks and troughs to this too which is annoying, but keep a record of who's out and what they did to catch up (or what you did to catch them up!).

For parents like that though, the only thing you can do is listen and nod...say "I hear what your saying" state your position...listen and nod.. say again "I hear what your saying" and restate your position.. then conclude the meeting.

seavill · 26-02-2014 10:25pm

I don't think anyone here suggested that students going away to activities should get away with not doing work. However that for you is clearly a whole school issue. It most likely is not only happening in your classroom and if this is the case, which it usually is, then its a whole school policy that needs to be implemented. You fighting against the tide all on your own will achieve little but to frustrate and stress yourself.

It has always been the case in any school I have been in (and it happened today with my group by coincidence) that they are told any class they miss they must catch up.
If there are persistent problems and your principal is ignoring the issue then again what can you do on your own.
I feel all you can do is put into place a system where it is there responsibility then you can't be questioned by any parents to that respect.

And for what its worth, I wouldn't be bothered in the slightest by those two parents. School rules are school rules they must catch up,the world doesn't stop during ANY activity.

I think you turning this into a thing against sports will only alienate yourself from particular staff. Keep it as a general extra curricular activity issue

doc_17 · 26-02-2014 10:38pm

Extracurricular activities are valuable as they teach students many things that can't be taught in a class.

To those who have issue with them I would ask this. Is the inconvience that you suffer in your class reason enough to completely remove them school life?

Grumpy Greg · 26-02-2014 10:48pm

It can be frustrating when a match is on and half your class is absent. I simply view sport as a hobby. Learning is all (sorry for being absolutist).:) We are in a catch 22 situation.

average_runner · 26-02-2014 10:58pm

Sport is a great tool for students to let go of pressure.
In our day it was a honour to represent the school and it was a schools honour to have us represent them.
Teachers would stay after hours with us to ensure we caught up. The teachers knew sport has a big part of education in a person life.

Nonoperational · 26-02-2014 11:17pm

Reading this makes me very grateful for some of the teachers I had when I was at school.

byhookorbycrook · 26-02-2014 11:18pm

Teachers are already staying after school due to silly HR and Croke Park rules. Our matches are all outside of school hours and within the last half hour of school. If you make a team, fantastic, but it's not carte blanche to go on the doss.

acequion · 26-02-2014 11:20pm

This is obviously a very divisive issue. Like the OP I am also more on the academic side. As a poster above has just said,sport is a hobby and I fully agree.And it's great when the student acts responsibly and catches up,but unfortunately many don't and this does cause problems. We all love to see them excelling in something and getting enjoyment but we can't allow them to use this as a cop out because they won't be able to do that in later life. The words balance and moderation come to mind.

seavill · 26-02-2014 11:27pm

Again none of the posters that have argued for the benefits of sports have said they wmshould get away with missing loads of classes or skipping work. Most have said the complete opposite in fact.
Most likely those skipping work are not ones for doing their homework 100% of the time anyway and are issues regardless of activities.
I think unless the op has the support of the principal making an issue of those not catching up in their work then it's a very hard slog.

From my point of view I have the rule on my teams if you are in trouble you don't come. I don't have the support of my colleagues on that one that also manage teams but it's waft I implement and the kids know where they stand so if you find one teacher that you can talk to that might be a way around it. The one you mentioned was not helpful but if you can talk to a different one you might get somewhere

Bananaleaf · 26-02-2014 11:28pm

Yeah, it's a whole school issue. I know it is.

This is not about them missing time inconveniencing me though. It's not even about the kids. They know its not my job to follow them around and in fairness they don't expect me to! (Of course they don't! ) it's the parents! School discipline is very ad hoc and in my opinion behaviour has been slipping in recent years.

The channels I have to go through to complain would mean going through 3 people before I would get near the principal. These 3 people don't care. I've told them my issue, they say they will make sure it doesn't happen again, it happens again. I know I could go to principal, but fact is I don't think it will change anything.

Will do the blog I think. Best solution.

Pwpane · 27-02-2014 12:19am

Why do you feel you have to do anything??

You can't go around reacting to everything that is said to you, that's no way to work.

Think out rationally what should happen when students miss class (for extra-curricular activity, for illness, for communions, for holidays etc) and have confidence in your judgement. Don't be rigid about it, there may be extenuating circumstances sometimes, but be confident.

Make out a system and make sure the students know it - and use it. And the next time a parent suggests that you make up the work and the time for the student that misses class, you'll be able to smile at them and say 'not at all, the system I organised with them is that......'. And then forget about it.

If you wish to make a blog sometime then do it sometime, maybe next year. Do not do it in direct reaction to an arrogant complaint - or you'll train the parents and students that this is the right way to handle you.

doc_17 · 27-02-2014 12:28am

Are those of us who are in favour of extracurricular giving the impression that it's ok then to doss when the kids come back to normal class? You'd think everyone who played sport came back into class and adopted the Al Bundy seating position!!

evolving_doors · 27-02-2014 12:34am

Bananaleaf wrote: »

Yeah, it's a whole school issue. I know it is.

This is not about them missing time inconveniencing me though. It's not even about the kids. They know its not my job to follow them around and in fairness they don't expect me to! (Of course they don't! ) it's the parents! School discipline is very ad hoc and in my opinion behaviour has been slipping in recent years.

The channels I have to go through to complain would mean going through 3 people before I would get near the principal. These 3 people don't care. I've told them my issue, they say they will make sure it doesn't happen again, it happens again. I know I could go to principal, but fact is I don't think it will change anything.

Will do the blog I think. Best solution.

I suppose if you can work it then give it a try. If your contract finishes in May then it's barely 3 months left to go.

But just on a macro level.... are you going to do the blog in your own time when you get home (On top of all the other work you are doing). Then if it's just for this student;s class will it spread to all your other classes. I suppose it depends on the person and how you work it, I know others wouldn;t give it a seconds thought.

Also consider this... Teacher A with no family commitments gives classes after school and updates their blog every evening putting up 'the notes' and interacting with the students in an open forum. I don;t know if this would work for say Teacher B has to pick up their kids at 4:30 every day and might not have all that free time to spare that teacher A has.. Im not saying that teacher A shouldn;t do this stuff and in the 'private sector' the result is still the same. However why should you be doubling up on work to appease a few students who seem to prioritise an extra curricular activity over going to class.
Once a precedent is set though it's the thin end of the wedge.. Like the parents who regularly take the holidays during school time and have teachers at their beck and call. Then they expect teachers to move their kids oral/practical times...

It seems a few teachers in the OP's school are providing the notes and giving them the catch up classes, therefore all teachers now have to do it. It might suit some subjects or teachers style but should it be the case that now ALL teachers have to do it..

evolving_doors · 27-02-2014 12:40am

doc_17 wrote: »

Are those of us who are in favour of extracurricular giving the impression that it's ok then to doss when the kids come back to normal class? You'd think everyone who played sport came back into class and adopted the Al Bundy seating position!!

I think it's safe to say that we are all in favour of extra curricular activities. Nobody here is claiming that those who do extra curricular adopt the Al Bundy seating position whatsoever. It's the few students that miss a lot of classes and THEN expect the teacher to carry the can for their learning is the issue. This thread is not a pro or anti extra curricular thread ( i think anyway!!). It's about students/parents taking the mick.

doc_17 · 27-02-2014 11:03am

Armelodie wrote: »

I think it's safe to say that we are all in favour of extra curricular activities. Nobody here is claiming that those who do extra curricular adopt the Al Bundy seating position whatsoever. It's the few students that miss a lot of classes and THEN expect the teacher to carry the can for their learning is the issue. This thread is not a pro or anti extra curricular thread ( i think anyway!!). It's about students/parents taking the mick.

Not everyone on this thread is. Which is all fine and well for people to have that position. But if schools offer them people are just gonna have to accept it.

evolving_doors · 27-02-2014 2:19pm

doc_17 wrote: »

Not everyone on this thread is. Which is all fine and well for people to have that position. But if schools offer them people are just gonna have to accept it.

I think you won't find any previous poster who is against extra curricular...please point out a post in which someone says they are outright against Extra curricular. The issue is the EXTENT to which a particular student partakes in it...

"if schools offer it then people are just gonna have to accept it". The OP accepts it but on the understanding that he doesnt have to give this one student special attention if they miss half the course... I think if you read the OP's first post again its the Parents that dont accept what Extra Curricular entails.... And it certainly doesnt entail 'catching up' the student.
Theres a big difference between missing classes and taking the absolute mick.

This is not a thread about preferring to have NO extra curricular, its about issues arising from extra curricular. That's my reading of it anyway.

prancer · 27-02-2014 3:55pm

OP: I was in a meeting with parents week before mid term and more or less got the same question.

MY ANSWER: January 9th your son was in my Geography Class, I took him along with the others in the class to the computer room and together each student set up an edmodo account. I had her sons username written down with all the others and explained what edmodo is. I also sent home a note (Jan 9th) with a parent pass code where they can log in and look at when their son/daughter logs in and what they do as well as their assignments. I showed them all the notes/tests and assignments on my iPad- they go up there regardless of where students are- as well as because I have a few slow writers.

RESULT: Parent apologized for wasting my time and for her son not catching up on his work. She is going to log in to edmodo in future herself to make sure he has accessed and printed or gotten the notes, as well as check his copy.

Parents aren't going to treat me like crap- students should value their time with teachers and aim to have all notes and homework done. If they dont hand it in in hard copy they hand it in online so I can check it.

They all have smart phones now so they can download it, it is free- my first year class have it on their iPads and i make them access notes the last 5 minutes of class to make sure they can all get into it.

By the way my school is the same- very sportsy but I am involved in lunchtime extra curricular. My main thing was to do this to help those who were absent.

***Teachers here still don't know or havent heard of Edmodo. Principal thought I had set it up myself. ha!

Its the only way to cover yourself

acequion · 27-02-2014 4:36pm

doc_17 wrote: »

Not everyone on this thread is. Which is all fine and well for people to have that position. But if schools offer them people are just gonna have to accept it.

To imply that there are posters not in favour of extra curricular because they expressed concern about students missing classes, is facetious.

It insults the professionalism of teachers to suggest that they are in some way ignorant of or oblivious to the benefits of extra curricular to the student. But this thread has thrown up two essential points:

1.Both teachers involved in and teachers not involved in extra curricular should make more effort to see the others' point of view and be respectful and flexible.

2. Much more importantly, yes, schools offer extra curricular.But let's never forget that this is provided on a voluntary basis.Nobody is being paid which is highly unusual, because in every other country that I know of, schools which offer extra curricular,do so on a paying basis. The fact that Irish teachers do it for free was all well and good when they had decent pay and conditions and were well treated as a profession. The erosion of all that is downright shocking, not least the odious teacher bashing which Ireland alone seems to indulge in. Also, while many who get involved in extra curricular really enjoy it, lets not kid ourselves that every one does. It's fine for a permanent fairly senior teacher like me to say no, but not the poor nqt trying to get his leg in the door somewhere, where all the others are doing loads of extra. So those happily doing it should not forget that they're causing pressure on others to follow suit, pressure which may eventually reach everyone, including those who no longer have the time nor the inclination.

seavill · 27-02-2014 5:31pm

You can't blame teachers that are doing activities for putting pressure on others to do it.
Although people may feel under pressure there is no obligation to do it. A guy new to our place last year straight out of college opted not to get involved. No one had a issue with this. Not even the principal. Just an example for my school which is all I can speak about.

I think that's twice you brought up the idea of giving enough hours and got getting paid for it. It's a fair point and I agree but it's not really relevant to what was being asked by the op

whiteandlight · 27-02-2014 5:56pm

Can everyone please stay on topic. The OP was looking for advice on management of students who are involved in extracurricular when they are missing on average 2 classes a week. I know its tempting to go off into a discussion about the pro's/cons of extracurricular but it doesn't really help the OP's issue

beveragelady · 27-02-2014 6:30pm

Don't know if somebody else made this point, I read through the first two pages and got so annoyed I had to reply straight away.
If kids could just 'get the notes' and expect to be up to speed there would be no need for me to be in the class at all. I could email the notes in from a beach in Barbados every morning!
Having the notes is not the same as being in class. The notes are complementary, a way of reinforcing what was taught in class. I'm not a huge fan of drowning them in reams of notes because (in my subject anyway) whatever question I ask on the topic I just get my own notes regurgitated back to me.
A missed class in only a missed class. A string of missed classes is a topic not covered. The kids and their parents decide on their priorities and leave me to do my job.

doc_17 · 27-02-2014 7:23pm

Armelodie wrote: »

I think you won't find any previous poster who is against extra curricular...please point out a post in which someone says they are outright against Extra curricular. The issue is the EXTENT to which a particular student partakes in it...

"if schools offer it then people are just gonna have to accept it". The OP accepts it but on the understanding that he doesnt have to give this one student special attention if they miss half the course... I think if you read the OP's first post again its the Parents that dont accept what Extra Curricular entails.... And it certainly doesnt entail 'catching up' the student.
Theres a big difference between missing classes and taking the absolute mick.

This is not a thread about preferring to have NO extra curricular, its about issues arising from extra curricular. That's my reading of it anyway.

Earlier someone called themselves an absolutist and said learning is all. Now I took that as meaning they weren't in favour of extracurricular. Apologies if they are in favour of extracurricular activities but it wasn't clear from that post.

And the issue for some is how much a particular student partakes in it but them for others it's the extent to which it disrupts their class.

As I have said previously, the OP encountered this problem for the first time and might now be better placed to address the issue in the future. Experience is a huge plus in dealing with parents like that.

Extra curricular - I'm furious!

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