Why do gay people marry a straight person

holyhead

Can somoeone on here please explain to me why a gay man or woman enters into a heterosexual marriage?

Ambersky

Because of the dominant hetero normative society we live in and because of homophobia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heteronormativity

Thats the nutshell I think but isnt it kind of obvious that given the amount of stick some people get for coming out, the fears they have about family and friends reaction, the desperate need some people feel to hide their orientation, that some people will try to suppress that voice that says they are gay and try to do everything they possibly can to make themselves look and be "normal". Going out with someone of the opposite sex and actually marrying them makes everyone else so happy.

floggg

Because the world can be a cruel and horrible place to gay people at times so they try to find safety and shelter by living the straight life.

Thankfully less need to do so in Ireland now, but if you lived in Uganda or Iran what would you do - come out and face death or try and live a "normal" life?

missierex

I think marriage and having a family are the issues for some people. I dated a girl for a number of months, only for her to end it because she 'didn't want to give up her chance to get married and have kids'.

I think having to deal with the stigma of gay marriage, and potentially being a lesbian parent frightened her.

To this day i'm not sure if she was bi or 100% gay, but she made a conscious decision to bury that part of her.

holyhead

Thanks for your replies guys. I'm coming to this from the angle of knowing a straight person whose husband was gay and the devastation it caused her. I found it interesting that none of the replies looked at the impact it can have or made reference to the other person in the marriage.

missierex

holyhead wrote: »

Thanks for your replies guys. I'm coming to this from the angle of knowing a straight person whose husband was gay and the devastation it caused her. I found it interesting that none of the replies looked at the impact it can have or made reference to the other person in the marriage.

Well I 100% agree that it can be 'selfish' to a degree; getting involved with someone and potentially having a family with them, only to turn around after a number of years and say 'I'm actually gay'. But on the flip-side, I can understand how it happens. I think it's exceptionally sad for everyone involved to be honest.

baby and crumble

holyhead wrote: »

Thanks for your replies guys. I'm coming to this from the angle of knowing a straight person whose husband was gay and the devastation it caused her. I found it interesting that none of the replies looked at the impact it can have or made reference to the other person in the marriage.

There are an awful lot of people who only come to terms/ realise their sexuality in later life. It's awful for everyone- I have huge empathy for the partners in this scenario because for them, it comes out of the blue. They won't have been privy to the thoughts inside the other persons head as they're thinking it all through and coming to terms with it.

I do liken it to someone marrying without being really in love with the other person- which to be brutally honest happens more than you would think. Or someone falling out of love. It happens.

freshpopcorn

They often just want to keep everybody happy and not let any one down.

holyhead

baby and crumble wrote: »

realise their sexuality in later life.

Do you not know though once puberty hits which way/ways you are inclined?

holyhead

holyhead wrote: »

Do you not know though once puberty hits which way/ways you are inclined?

Not necessarily.
I didn't have a clue 'til I started university!

holyhead

This girl's husband was definitely different and in some feminine looking back. I don't blame my friend or never ridicule her not seeing this as love is blind.

missierex

holyhead wrote: »

Do you not know though once puberty hits which way/ways you are inclined?

In my experience some people do, and some people don't. I think I probably knew something was up from a young age (maybe 12 or 13) but kinda ignored it/didn't dwell on it. I never had a boyfriend in school while all my friends were rambling on about fellas. I think the penny finally dropped when I was about 17/18 and I came out to my two best friends.

I have friends and exes who had steady boyfriends/girlfriends for years, and then something just clicked all of a sudden with them and they realised they were gay.

MadeMitch

I'm trans/genderqueer and married a man who I had feelings for on all other levels (just not sexually)

I didn't want to disappoint family so at the time I thought I was actually doing well by ignoring my true feelings on my gender and sexuality.

SpaceTime

There are probably loads of reasons!

Sexual orientation isn't as binary as people might think. It can take a long time for some people to figure themselves out.

Marriages however breakdown for lots of reasons all the time.

The most important thing is that people live happy and fulfilling lives and if there are kids involved that they're looked after and not put under strain of two fighting parents.

I suspect Ireland was full of very unhappy marriages as we only introduced divorce in the late 1990s!

Life is short and often doesn't go to plan. At least these days we're beginning to accept that. Sometimes you have to change course along the route.

People can need to divorce, pregnancy outside marriage happens and people are gay and bi etc.

I think in a situation like that people just need to accept that's the situation and deal with reality.

It's sad when marriages break up. It's even sadder when they stay together if they're not working out.

Life is fun, but it's not a 19th century romance novel!

baby and crumble

holyhead wrote: »

Do you not know though once puberty hits which way/ways you are inclined?

Some do, some don't. I knew by the time I hit 6th year, but I know of a few people who don't really realise until they hit their 40's. If you went through life without being gay being on your radar then your admiration/ attraction to members of your own sex can just not 'click'. You know?

There's a good documentary that i saw on Netflix: It's called Out Late.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1341764/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KaSkO7WZCcM

Might be worth a watch for your friend, OP.

floggg

holyhead wrote: »

This girl's husband was definitely different and in some feminine looking back. I don't blame my friend or never ridicule her not seeing this as love is blind.

Maybe sometimes they try and suppress it do bad and live in denial even to themselves as a result of the way they know the well be judged by others and have their manhoods questioned by ignorant people.

So while it is terrible for the spouse and family, they are a victim themselves as well.

holyhead

floggg wrote: »

they are a victim themselves as well.

I wish you every good luck in explaining that to my friend and her children. Their lives have been tremendously damaged by this person's actions. I don't think this person is by nature bad but what can you say.

SpaceTime

holyhead wrote: »

I wish you every good luck in explaining that to my friend and her children. Their lives have been tremendously damaged by this person's actions. I don't think this person is by nature bad but what can you say.

You can't really say anything other than their marriage didn't work out.
Unfortunate, but what can you do? A significant % of marriages don't.

There isn't really any point in being angry about it. People make mistakes and get married to the wrong people.

Marriages break down due to very similar things that might just be personality clashes or incompatibility and nothing to do with sexual orientation.

At the end of the day the most important thing is both parties move on and the kids have loving parents

Being bitter about it doesn't really help anyone involved. The most important thing is not to be seriously damaged or messed up by it and to move on

I don't think anyone gets into a situation like that intending to hurt anyone.

Sorry if I'm coming across as a bit 'tough love' here but, life is too short to spend it being bitter about things that are just errors of judgement really.

Key thing is that he looks after his kids and that people make the best of a messy situation.

Marriages can end for FAR worse reasons than this.

It's never nice but, marriages fail quite a lot.

floggg

holyhead wrote: »

I wish you every good luck in explaining that to my friend and her children. Their lives have been tremendously damaged by this person's actions. I don't think this person is by nature bad but what can you say.

Sorry, you didn't get my point.

I meant is it any wonder that some gay men tried to convince themselves and others that they can live the straight life when you have lovely "concerned" types like you calling them "different" and "feminine".

**** like that makes them think they need to get married and have a family if they are be accepted and live "normal" lives.

So yes, it causes a tremendous amount of hurt down the line when they marry and it doesn't work out but they never go into it intended that to happen.

However, if people weren't so ignorant and using terms like that to describe them they might have realised from an early stage it was ok to be themselves and maybe wouldn't have gotten married.

PS - they are his kids too I presume. If they are upset, tell them they wouldn't exist if we lived in a less homophobic world.

Dr. Shrike

Of course, it's possible that the man in question was just a complete gobsh*te and it wasn't homophobia that made him marry a woman, but his complete failings as a human being.

There are definitely people out there who fool themselves into relationships with the wrong sex, not because of homophobia, but because they so strongly decide that they're going to live a straight lifestyle that same sex attraction isn't going to persuade them otherwise.

But all we have to go on are a few rather short sentences from one person telling the story second hand. For all we know the man in question would say that he was actually bisexual but the wife wouldn't accept that he can be into both sexes.

holyhead

What do you mean by lovely concerned types like me. I have engaged in a respectful fashion with you at all times. Your not helping your arguement/viewpoint or whatever it is your trying to put across. So if he comes across as different and feminine I can't put this across because it upsets your sensibilities??

holyhead

Dr Strike thanks for your post. She married believing he was straight. She has only one life and deserved not to have it damaged like it was.

Annasopra

holyhead wrote: »

Dr Strike thanks for your post. She married believing he was straight. She has only one life and deserved not to have it damaged like it was.

You make it sound like he deliberately damaged her life and his life has been undamaged. Look I know it was hurtful but is there actually a need to hold onto the hurt in a blame game?

holyhead

Mango Salsa thank you for your post. He got the respectability he craved from being married and being a family man. She ended up humiliated.

BanzaiBk

What are you hoping for this thread to achieve holyhead? Do you want us to apologise to you and your friend because her husband now identifies as a gay man? What do you think posting terms like "feminine" in relation to this man is going to achieve exactly?

Thousands of straight men and women break up their marriages every year for a variety of reasons. You are a bystander, you do not know the intricacies of your friend's relationship with her husband.

SpaceTime

Behaving as if the guy did this deliberately to go out to 'humiliate' your friend is quite frankly ridiculous.

People often get married to someone in good faith and things just don't work out for many reasons. This is just another one of those many reasons.

I think you're being very unfair on the guy and possibly are going to make what is already a very stressful and awkward situation a million times worse with this kind of attitude.

The two parties actually need to move on with their lives and put their kids first in this scenario and that means basically building a bridge and getting over it. (If you'll pardon the pun).

The situation's unfortunate, but it's not the end of the world by any means.
Millions of people all over the world are quite happily divorced and get on with life afterwards.

Being bitter and holding a long-term grudge is not going to do anything other than create a totally toxic atmosphere in a situation that is not something that either party can change. It's bad for both parties, it's bad for their kids and it's totally unhelpful.

Bear in mind that the first divorce granted since the 1937 constitution was only in 1997, just 17 years ago (boards.ie is nearly that age) and so far 87,770 people here are now divorced and well over 100,000 are legally separated.

So, it's not exactly unusual to be divorced and that's despite the fact that getting a divorce in Ireland is a torturous process that takes 5 years! Possibly the most ridiculous divorce regulations in the developed world. Only Italy comes close and even that's not quite as bad.

In the UK 42% of marriages end in divorce and that's pretty much in line with international norms in liberal democracies.

The only countries in Europe that record relatively low divorce rates are Malta (only introduced divorce in 2011), Ireland (introduced 1997) and Italy all of which have histories of very, very, VERY church-dominated social policy in this area which meant that divorces were not possible without exile / emigration.

Also bear in mind that attitudes like being displayed in this thread with regard to divorce resulted in probably tens of thousands (if not many more) Irish people emigrating permanently and living in exile as a result of inability to divorce.

I know personally of two people who lived their entire lives in exile because they couldn't divorce in Ireland (nothing to do with LGBT issues, just really bad marriages and a very violent spouse in one case)

We really have a hell of a lot of catching up to do when it comes to social policy reflecting social reality and have only very recently come out of the dark ages on a lot of topics.

(Apologies if this is a bit of a long rant and I'm not a regular poster in this forum, but I've just encountered too many people in really bad marriages (not gay/lesbian/bisexual/trans related at all) holding it together for the sake of avoiding 'humiliation' which in reality doesn't come about at all. It's a really toxic situation and ends up in misery in a lot of cases.)

Lyaiera

holyhead wrote: »

Mango Salsa thank you for your post. He got the respectability he craved from being married and being a family man. She ended up humiliated.

How was she humiliated? Did she love someone? How is that humiliating? Caring for someone is not a shameful thing.

I can imagine someone not knowing they're gay. Society shows heterosexual couples constantly. Society shows a mother and a father raising children so why would it be crazy for this man to think that's what he's supposed to do? He did that. He loved this woman and he fathered his children. That doesn't sound so out of the ordinary. He actually realises he's attracted to men and wants to spend time with men. That happens. People divorce all the time. People realise they love each other. I don't think that lessens the time those two people spent together. They moved apart.

Do you think divorce is wrong? Do you think two people should stay together unhappily? Do you think one person should pretend to be unhappy to ensure the other person is happy? That doesn't sound fair. If I loved someone I'd prefer that they left me to be happy. I'd be hurt. But if I really cared for someone, and I care a lot for people I'd prefer that they live a happy life than live unhappily keeping up appearances with me.

Lyaiera

pharmaton wrote: »

hey, apologies for taking a tangent but I'm really struggling with my gender atm. I identified as gay female for a few years but I'm just not happy with that. I'm struggling with this more so now than I have in a long time, it gets especially difficult when I have to work in a largely female environments, and I'm in full time ed with an overwhelmingly female student base right now. I just feel even more like I don't fit. I don't know where to go from here.

Talk to a therapist. Talk to someone who is an expert in this. Gender is such an amazingly diverse thing that few people can really align with what you're thinking. Talk to someone trained in this, and there's nothing wrong with doing so. Give yourself a few hours to sit down with someone who understand what you're saying, and has the understanding to know what you're saying and try and figure it out with them.

Lou.m

holyhead wrote: »

Can somoeone on here please explain to me why a gay man or woman enters into a heterosexual marriage?

I have heard a lot of people say they do it to have kids.

I do know of people who are determined despite knowing their orientation.

It is sad but it happens.

I do think some people genuinely do not know.

But some show a complete lack of regard for the spouse.

It is a mix of people who are gay who get married. Some come from deeply conservative cultures. I know of stories where gay people marry a straight person and actually are completely honest with the spouse and tell them 'I'm gay'. And they accept it.


For some they are just very inexperienced, naive and have little experience of relationships or have seen same sex couples. What they experience what they have with an opposite sex person they THINK is love or attraction etc until the real thing comes along.

I think for most of these people the sex bit with the opposite sex tends to get worse and harder to do over time. That is what I have heard anyway and they mess themselves up and the other person because that person internalizes that revulsion and feels deeply rejected and they both end up mixed up.

Human sexuality is not understood it is assumed. And to be honest when it comes to sexuality nothing is what it seems.

I would not blame people being bitter about it ....it's a tough thing to happen ..someone you love telling you that they can't love you that way ....especially if there are kids.

I think we need to be understanding but also take responsibility for ourselves. 'Bi' people get such shtick for suddenly realizing they are straight. Actually Bi people get **** anyway. Well if the shoe was on the other foot??


If your boyfriend or girlfriend suddenly realized they were straight you would be pretty angry and if it was a long relationship you would be destroyed and feel they have let you down big time. It would be only natural.

I feel for the spouse.

You have to be sure of who you marry. Thankfully it is fewer and fewer who get into this situation.

Annasopra

holyhead wrote: »

Mango Salsa thank you for your post. He got the respectability he craved from being married and being a family man. She ended up humiliated.

I don't understand. You asked us why this happened. Then you make assumptions that it was because he craved respectability.

Ambersky

Op I kind of get the feeling that you aren't actually looking for real answers to your question "Why do gay people marry a straight person?". By that I mean you dont seem open or interested in seeing things from the perspective of the gay person in that situation and seem to want to draw our attention more to the perspective of the straight person in that situation and to realising how bad the gay person is to do this to the straight person.

I would like to turn that around for a moment and Im not saying the kind of blaming language Im going to use is useful to hold onto but it might be interesting to hear it because it sounds like a turnaround of blaming the gay person. Actually I dont believe either person is to blame and I do actually believe it is hetero normality and homophobia that causes people to get into these unhappy situations. Being angry at those things and helping to end them are what I think would make people happier all round including their heterosexual victims no one wins with homophobia.

So Im proposing the question "Why do straight people marry a gay person?"

Why do straight people who know that heterosexuality is considered normal and who know how hard it is for some people to come out as gay, still marry gay people anyway.
Are they so convinced that heterosexuality is the only way that they are willing to convince themselves that their partner is straight when they are not. Why do straight people trap a gay person in marriage against their wishes.
Why do they think their wishes and their needs come before the very real need every individual has to lead an authentic life.
What would make them happy in that situation, why do they want everyone their partner themselves and their children to lead lives that are a complete sham.
How could they have sex with someone who was pretending?
How could they think this was a good environment one of lies and pretence and shame to raise children in.
Have they not learned what a life built around secrets and silences does to children.
Do they not realise the torture and humiliation they are putting their partner through asking them to live a lie just to make them happy. How self absorbed and completely selfish is that.

SpaceTime

Why does anyone marry the 'wrong' person?

Close to 42% of UK couples seem to manage to make this error and 50% of Americans.

I still fail to see any major difference between this any other failed marriage.

The fact that one party figures out they're gay isn't any different really to a couple being incompatible for any of another huge range of reasons.

I think singling this out as a gay issue is even going way too far.

My only advice is move on, support your friend and she'll be a much happier woman!
You're not helping by vilifying her ex to be perfectly honest.

Ambersky

Space Time said
I still fail to see any major difference between this any other failed marriage........
I think singling this out as a gay issue is even going way too far.

Space Time,That sounds like another version of "I dont see why you need to make such a big deal about it" that comes up every time there is a post about someone coming out or gay pride or any celebration of any act of courage on the part of someone gay against the opposition. That might sound like and be intended to be a way of saying that we are all equal and not different at all but I think it is a kind of denial that there is any opposition, that there are any forces, that make gay people afraid to come out or that exert pressures so strong that they cause some gay people to lead double lives.

I think I can think of a name for the thing that you just cant see, again and again, its homophobia.
This thread is an example of how it makes peoples lives miserable and not just gay peoples lives either. Homophobia is not just expressed by extremists who beat people up, it is also subtle thing making our lives invisible even from ourselves and then turns around and blames us for desperate efforts to fit in and conform, accusing us of selfisness when we try to be truthful, denying us the opportunity to marry anyone except a person of the opposite sex, all that is homophobia.

floggg

holyhead wrote: »

What do you mean by lovely concerned types like me. I have engaged in a respectful fashion with you at all times. Your not helping your arguement/viewpoint or whatever it is your trying to put across. So if he comes across as different and feminine I can't put this across because it upsets your sensibilities??

Feel free to put it across however you feel. Your choice of language doesn't upset me but is revealing about a lot of things.

Firstly, I would very much doubt that he is in any way all that "different" or "feminine" given that neither his wife or you would seem to have picked up on this two "characteristics" prior to learning of his orientation.

Secondly, the language you chose is reflective of the general homophobic attitude and culture which makes young gay men and women think that marrying somebody of the opposite sex is the right thing to do for them and everybody else.

Feminine is problematic in itself, particularly as it's evidently only with the benefit of hindsight and knowledge of his sexuality that you ascribe it to him - suggesting it's more of an association you make with his sexual orientation then the man itself.

What ever about that though, the use of the word "different" is problematic and most reflective of the attitude I described.

For descriptive purposes, it's a largely useless word as it doesn't actually convey anything.

But in this context it's very effective in conveying that there was just something about him that separated him from the "normal" folk.

And when used as here as an apparent indicator of his sexuality, the inference is there's just something "different" about gay people.

Now who knows, maybe you didn't mean to convey anything like that at all and it was just clumsy language on your part.

But if you actually cared about the answer to your question, you might wonder how being told from as long as you can remember that to be gay means to be different and less of a man might make a confused young man try his best not to be gay.

And unfortunately for everybody involved that means convincing yourself that it really is love you feel for that young woman and that all you want is to marry her and live you life with her.

That's if you actually cared about the answer, or seeing things from his perspective.

holyhead

If someone is not of the majority and are by a consequence are a minority then yes they are different Flogg. I'm sorry to break this reality to you. I'm sure your a fine person and your doing your best to put your viewpoint across. If a man comes across efeminate then that's how they come across and all the fine rhetoric or theory will not change this. I have no problem with someone being gay. I do have problem with someone who is gay marrying a straight person for whatever reason they do this.

If stating the obvious constitutes, without resorting to vulgar langurage, homophobic language then the issue is with how the word is used.

baby and crumble

holyhead wrote: »

I do have problem with someone who is gay marrying a straight person for whatever reason they do this.

Do you have a problem with someone falling out of love?

I'm not being funny, but you don't know what is goin on within this marriage. You know one persons side. I agree, if this guy married your friend with the full knowledge that he is gay, and did it simply out of self preservation then yeah, he's a bit of a dick. But if he honestly thought, at the time of getting married, that he loved your friend then this is just a case of marriage break down. Why does it matter why the marriage broke down? This guy isn't gay on purpose.

Sponge25

Anyone who marries knowing they're gay is a horrible nasty person IMHO.

Ambersky

holyhead you said

This girl's husband was definitely different and in some feminine looking back. I don't blame my friend or never ridicule her not seeing this as love is blind.....

Do you not know though once puberty hits which way/ways you are inclined?

He got the respectability he craved from being married and being a family man. She ended up humiliated........

She married believing he was straight. She has only one life and deserved not to have it damaged like it was.

I wish you every good luck in explaining that to my friend and her children. Their lives have been tremendously damaged by this person's actions. I don't think this person is by nature bad but what can you say.

All that does sound like a refusal to see that both parties in the marriage are suffering and it states that the only damage you see done is being done by the gay person.

You are not actually saying the gay person is bad by nature, but - you put a but to leave us thinking and then add..... what can you say. That sounds a bit cowardly or passive aggressive, not actually saying the person is bad by nature and leaving us to decide after telling us about the tremendous damage this person has done which you and the wife and children just cant understand.

I have no problem with someone being gay. I do have problem with someone who is gay marrying a straight person for whatever reason they do this.

So you say you have no problem with someone being gay - Thanks :pac:
You dont have a problem with someone being gay so long as......... they dont marry a straight person, your not interested in understanding why this might be and you seem to be encouraging us to question if its because the gay person in in some way bad by nature.

Thats the same as all the other messages we hear like I dont have a problem with people being gay so long as they dont - be so open about it, come from my family, work with children, adopt children, try to change the state of marriage, etc etc. You just have another reason to add to the list and I think you do have a problem with gay people .

Ambersky

Sponge25 said
Anyone who marries knowing they're gay is a horrible nasty person IMHO.

Well thats gay marriage down the tubes then
Horrible nasty people that we are.....seriously?

SpaceTime

Ambersky wrote: »

Space Time,That sounds like another version of "I dont see why you need to make such a big deal about it" that comes up every time there is a post about someone coming out or gay pride or any celebration of any act of courage on the part of someone gay against the opposition. That might sound like and be intended to be a way of saying that we are all equal and not different at all but I think it is a kind of denial that there is any opposition, that there are any forces, that make gay people afraid to come out or that exert pressures so strong that they cause some gay people to lead double lives.

I think I can think of a name for the thing that you just cant see, again and again, its homophobia.
This thread is an example of how it makes peoples lives miserable and not just gay peoples lives either. Homophobia is not just expressed by extremists who beat people up, it is also subtle thing making our lives invisible even from ourselves and then turns around and blames us for desperate efforts to fit in and conform, accusing us of selfisness when we try to be truthful, denying us the opportunity to marry anyone except a person of the opposite sex, all that is homophobia.

What I'm trying to say is that marriage breakup happens a lot and I get the sense on this thread that people are trying to vitriolically punish the guy because 'he should have known better'.

I agree I think it's societal homophobia that drives these things.

What I'm trying to point out is I don't really see why a marriage breakup because someone figures out that they're actually gay is being given such a nasty reaction on this thread. It's not any worse than any other marriage break up reason and a lot more benign than most!

I'm actual concerned that some posts here are going as far as to verbally bash the guy and call him all sorts of things and question his integrity and I think that's grossly unfair.

It's enough to make someone who may have been very confused very depressed or worse.
People should have more cop on!

I'm also pretty seriously offended if you're accusing me of being homophobic tbh. I'd suggest you actually read my posts!

What I'm pointing out is that marriages breakdown and that not everyone is 100% clear about their sexual orientation at particular times in their lives. Not everyone has the luxury of being 100% sorted and people regularly end up married to incompatible partners often for all the right reasons in their own head at the time.

I'm very very concerned that him being gay is being seen as 'awful' and 'humiliating' one poster even said far worse.

I think it's highhanded and ridiculously judgemental and totally lacking understanding or empathy to do that.

What I think is homophobic is that somehow this kind of breakup is being treated as much nastier than if the marriage had fallen apart for some other reason.

I would say that the GLBT people who are being equally critical of him on this thread might want to have a long hard think about what this man may be going through and put themselves in his shoes.

There's also nothing to say that it was societal pressures that caused him to make this decision. He may have just been unclear about his sexual orientation himself.

It's very easy to condemn someone else's bad decisions from the luxury of a position where you're completely clear about everything yourself!

The situation is unfortunate but it's neither unusual nor insurmountable.

Way too much passing judgements going on here!

Ambersky

Space Time I have re read your post a couple of times and I have read your other posts to try to get a better feel of what you are saying.
Im not trying to attack or offend you, maybe I am misreading what you said or are trying to say.

Yes I too think some posts seem like an attempt to bash this guy and I think it could make this person and others reading it who may be in simular situations or who have come from simular situations feel worse. In that spirit I agree there isnt that much different about this kind of break up on an individual level as an example of someone growing or realising they no longer fit or actually never fit into the relationship or marriage. If thats what you are saying and I misunderstood I apologise. I may at this stage be somewhat jaded by the chorus of "I dont see why we have to make such a big deal about it" as a way of saying put up and shut up.

What I think is homophobic is that somehow this kind of breakup is being treated as much nastier than if the marriage had fallen apart for some other reason.

I am totally in agreement with you on this and that statement explains the situation very well I think.

Reading

.I think singling this out as a gay issue is even going way too far.

all you have said explains what you meant by this very well but I would say it is a gay issue as many gay people find or have found themselves in this situation and its not just for personal reasons its also because of those societal pressures .. homophobia and heteronormality. However I now think I understand what you were saying much better.

SpaceTime

What I meant by that was that it's being singled out by the OP and others as a 'gay issue' in the sense that because the man in question is ending a marriage by discovering he is gay is somehow WAY worse than anything else.

I think people are blowing it out of proportion as somehow more 'scandalous' or 'humiliating' because the guy turned out to be gay.

Personally, I think the guy is making a brave decision and I wish him and his ex-wife well in the future.

I don't think anyone should remain in an unhappy marriage. Its a bad idea for everyone involved!

I just think that it's very important to realise that marriage isn't always a fairytale and many, many, many marriages fail and I really don't think this reason is any worse than a couple finding things just don't work between them.

It doesn't mean that they're nasty people! They just made a mistake!

floggg

holyhead wrote: »

If someone is not of the majority and are by a consequence are a minority then yes they are different Flogg. I'm sorry to break this reality to you. I'm sure your a fine person and your doing your best to put your viewpoint across. If a man comes across efeminate then that's how they come across and all the fine rhetoric or theory will not change this. I have no problem with someone being gay. I do have problem with someone who is gay marrying a straight person for whatever reason they do this.

If stating the obvious constitutes, without resorting to vulgar langurage, homophobic language then the issue is with how the word is used.

Either you're incredibly bad at conveying what you mean or you are being disingenuous here.

Yes, strictly speaking if you are a minority you are different in some way from the majority.

But that's not really the context you used it. The only difference between straight men and gay men is the gender they are attracted to.

Since you didn't know he was gay, you didn't know that he was "different" in that regard.

Don't worry, I'm not expecting us to agree, or you to try and understand my point.

I get it that you came here to start a thread about how bad this guy was and we were probably all meant to agree or something.

Good luck what that.

holyhead

floggg wrote: »

I get it that you came here to start a thread about how bad this guy was and we were probably all meant to agree or something.

Now who is being disingenuous. That is a very lazy piece of commentary on your part Flogg and does your good intentions to engage here no favours.

From what I can see gay people marry straight people either because of some late dawning of their sexuality, bi sexuality or to fulfil some societal norm. Have I missed something based on those three options as to the answer to my initial question or are there other options.

As a reposte to your lazy commentary. I dont hate this guy. I think what he did was wrong ie marry when he was either gay or bi sexual. If was bi-sexual his wife didn't know it. I also have stated I don't think he's inherently a bad person but he should have been honest with his wife.

On another point some gay men are flamboyant/feminine and unfortunately this can leave them open to ridicule or being targeted for abuse. We live in a macho dominated society. I don't think its fair that somone is ridiculed for there sexual leanings but its a harsh world out there but things are a heck of a lot better for gay people than 20/30 years ago.

You say we didn't know he was gay. We couldn't be sure absolutely. But his mannerism hinted at it. Maybe you find offense at that observation but I can only relay what we observed. Its a wee bit simplistic to say that the difference between gay and straight is the gender they are attracted to.

There is nothing in this great wide world says we must agree but we can agree to respect the opinion and viewpoints of the other. For the record the last person I had dinner with this week is gay. He the nicest of chaps you could ever meet and a good friend of mine.

holyhead

mango salsa wrote: »

I don't understand. You asked us why this happened. Then you make assumptions that it was because he craved respectability.

Fair point Mango. Yeah I am curious in the wider sense of why this happens. I unintentional tried to answer my own question. Thanks for bringing this to my attention.

ne0ica

I recall reading article where Pete burns said he wished he had stayed married to a woman as monogamy and long term relationships were things gay men were not big into.

Annasopra

holyhead wrote: »

Fair point Mango. Yeah I am curious in the wider sense of why this happens. I unintentional tried to answer my own question. Thanks for bringing this to my attention.

The thing is. I don't think you actually want answers. It seems to me like you have already decided the answers and you are going to judge and vilify the guy no matter what.

SpaceTime

One thing I'd just like to point out too. Being 'effeminate' (whatever that means) is nothing to do with sexual orientation

There are plenty of very 'camp' (hate the term) men who are very definitely heterosexual and there are plenty of gay men who are extremely 'macho' and an awful lot men in between.

I actually think this notion that guys should be bullied for being 'effeminate' (whatever that means) is actually just oppression of men.

Since the Victorian era men have been expected to act like emotionless robots and are often ridiculed for dressing even slightly flamboyantly, being into fashion, arts, being emotional, doing certain jobs, being caring, being close to male friends etc

The terror of being assumed to be gay which was a criminal offence until then 1990s here and well into the 1960s in Britain had a really terrible impact on men in general by creating a paranoia and like Panti's speech, checking themselves against a social norm that was enforced by threats of ridicule, violence or even legal sanctions in the past.

Similar stuff applies to women who are deemed 'butch' or 'tom boys' but I think the feminist movement has had a lot of impact on blowing most of those stereotypes away.

I actually think homophobia's victims extend beyond just the LGBT community. Many heterosexuals also get included in the bullies targeting system.

We have to move to a situation where people can just be themselves.

The idea also really caused a lot of unnecessary grief for gay people who aren't a media stereotype of all things gay and it probably makes it much harder and more confusing for people figuring themselves out.

I think this is where you can get a guy deciding he thinks he's straight because he doesn't feel he fits the social and media supported stereotypes yet is attracted to men.

Having more people like male sports stars etc coming out as gay and glamorous women coming as lesbians is really positively blowing those ridiculous stereotypes out of the water.

Sorry if it's a bit OT but I think it's something that needs to be challenged at every opportunity and it was mentioned further up the thread.

I just think we all really need to stop trying to define people by a bunch of stereotypes. It's no different to racism.

We (and I mean the whole western society not just Ireland) still have a lot of homophobic baggage from another era that needs to be gotten rid of much like the way sexism was tackled, it needs to happen - it impacts on everyone to some degree and we all need to stand against it.

None of us should be subject to abuse for being ourselves.

wonderfulname

holyhead wrote: »

I wish you every good luck in explaining that to my friend and her children. Their lives have been tremendously damaged by this person's actions. I don't think this person is by nature bad but what can you say.

This happened to my family, if anyone spoke of my father as you do of this man I'd lose the plot. Shoehorning peoples complex personal narratives into caricatures of virtious and evil too simplistic for a children's fairytale, do you really think life works like that? I am proud of my father for being true to himself, i wholly understand how his life unfolded as it did and being queer i feel a lot of compassion for it, my regret is that he didn't get to be young and out and experience a narrative more like my own. Marriages break down all the time, I'm glad they can, I'm glad my parent's did, as any imperfect union of imperfect people is liable to do.

I feel a need to point out my life has not been tremendously damaged by my parent's being together, it has however been created, which I am quite grateful for.

I also feel a need to question what exactly this has to do with you, the relationship issues of my friends are their own, I will support them, but I won't involve myself in any judgement, I wouldn't speak for someone else against another person, because at the end of the day, what do I really know?

freshpopcorn

holyhead wrote: »

I wish you every good luck in explaining that to my friend and her children. Their lives have been tremendously damaged by this person's actions. I don't think this person is by nature bad but what can you say.

One thing I picked up on was you say her children not their children if the man is their father you should be referring to the kids as theirs not hers. At the end of the day the relationship failed. He could have tought he was straight at the start of the marriage. Some people don't realise their really feeling until they are in th twenties and thirties even older. Your friend marriage has broken down and if her husband starts another relationship it will be another man.
It is important now that your friend explains to the kids that there's nothing wrong with being gay because it could have a major impact on the kids future if they relies they are gay and also if the man is the kids dad. She shouldn't be painting a negative image of their dad to them. They might resent her about it in the future.

You might like to read this, its about a Welsh rugby player called Gareth Thomas who got married but the marriage broke down because he was gay.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1237035/British-Lions-rugby-legend-Gareth-Thomas-Its-ended-marriage-nearly-driven-suicide-Now-time-tell-world-truth--Im-gay.html

floggg

freshpopcorn wrote: »

You might like to read this, its about a Welsh rugby player called Gareth Thomas who got married but the marriage broke down because he was gay.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1237035/British-Lions-rugby-legend-Gareth-Thomas-Its-ended-marriage-nearly-driven-suicide-Now-time-tell-world-truth--Im-gay.html

Sorry, I think you were confused about the point of this thread. Though misleadingly posted as a question, it was never about trying to understand the husbands position and just an excuse to tell us all how awful he was to ruin everybody's life - particularly the lives of those who wouldn't exist if he hadn't gotten married in the first place.