The Links Thread

TrapperChamonix

Played Baltray on Friday in very windy conditions but thankfully avoided the rain. Very friendly folks in the club and on the course.
Its interesting that people comment on Seapoints opening holes as being "un-links-like", but no one mentions the same about Baltray. I would have said its only when you get to the 5th that it plays like a links. 9th is a very good hole but the stretch 12 to 16 is the best of the course. I especially like the index 18, 14th hole. You should be getting a par at worst but I'd say it claims its fair share of victims. I lost my drive high to the right.
17 is Meh, especially when the other par 3's are very good. The 18th is back to a non links playing characteristic. Not appealing to my eye, especially the positioning of 2 bunkers in the middle of the fairway is not great.
Interesting that there is almost no view of the sea (I think 1 tee box only). Finishing of the bunkers is OK but no more than that. Greens are true and full of subtle borrows that make them a pleasure and a challange all at the same time. I would have said that its perennial top 10 ranking is very much linked to its history with the East of Ireland rather than the pure playing characteristics of the course. A very enjoyable course and one I would thoroughly recommend anyone to play.
Only downside was that I was 3 up with 6 to play and my playing partner covered the last 6 in level par to beat me by 2 holes.

FixdePitchmark

Hard luck Trapper - sounds like you played well.

The thread is nine months old - and the more it goes on. The more interesting the variety of views there are, even on a specific group of courses (links) . I enjoy reading people's different views - it is very subjective.

I've seen people who have basically said they dislike a course - that so many others love. It is interesting. Then some love another - others hate.

What PARlance and Kevin said above are good points. There seems to be little or no definition of what a typical links is. You can group them a bit - but then there will be a run of 4 holes on a course, totally different.

Yes we would all love sea views, big dunes on an everlasting coastal route with perfect greens, bunkers and authentic to original design, no trees or water hazards with no sleepers, no blind shots, no lost balls in deep rough.

I'm obviously joking.

But - have found it interesting.

Have we perhaps unrealistic standards in this country ?

It is going to be hard for a links to be perfect as its design is greatly determined by the way the land is formed. This formation is not controlled by man alone. The land a links can be on is sometimes restricted by nature alone. I've been on courses like Arklow - and in your divot you can physically see and feel the change in ground conditions as you move inland.

Most links have a flat section / "un links like" section - but once it is links base and grass type - I'm beginning to even enjoy these types of holes. I'm just happy hitting the ball off a sand base and onto a links greens with natural flow bumps hollows and tiers. I even love the sound.

An example of 2 great courses that are - to a great extent flat links with little or no large sand dunes - are Portmarnock Old and Portmarnock Links - these are fantastic courses - I'd put Baltray in this group.

Anyway - I'd play any above above for the rest of my days.

TrapperChamonix

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Hard luck Trapper - sounds like you played well.

The thread is nine months old - and the more it goes on. The more interesting the variety of views there are, even on a specific group of course s (links) . I enjoy reading people's different views - it is very subjective.

I've seen people who have basically said they dislike a course - that so many others love. It is interesting. Then some love another - others hate.

What PARlance and Kevin said above are good points. There seems to be little or no definition of what a typical links is. You can group them a bit - but then there will be a run of 4 holes on a course, totally different.

Yes we would all love sea views, big dunes on an everlasting coastal route with perfect greens, bunkers and authentic to original design, no trees or water hazards with no sleepers, no blind shots, no lost balls in deep rough.

I'm obviously joking.

But - have found it interesting.

Have we perhaps unrealistic standards in this country ?

It is going to be hard for a links to be perfect as its design is greatly determined by the way the land is formed. This formation is not controlled by man alone. The land a links can be on is sometimes restricted by nature alone. I've been on courses like Arklow - and in your divot you can physically see and feel the change in ground conditions as you move inland.

Most links have a flat section / "un links like" section - but once it is links base and grass type - I'm beginning to even enjoy these types of holes. I'm just happy hitting the ball off a sand base and onto a links greens with natural flow bumps hollows and tiers. I even love the sound.

An example of 2 great courses that are - to a great extent flat links with little or no large sand dunes - are Portmarnock Old and Portmarnock Links - these are fantastic courses - I'd put Baltray in this group.

Anyway - I'd play any above above for the rest of my days.

FDP, Not sure if I come across as unduly critical when I pen these little pieces. Certainly don't mean to be. Just reflecting the feedback of me and the playing partners to the day. I think there is a I'm not really bothered by the ascetic of the course, view's and high dunes, though they do impact on course ratings. To my mind the un links bit are more to do with the composition of the ground and grass as you referenced in Arklow (I've not played it). The ground should be / must be sand based and fescue. That gives it the characteristic of fast running and also means that the impact of the iron on the ground is much firmer that that of a parkland (not better or worse but different). The club bounces through impact rather than digs, if you know what I mean.

I'd agree with the assessment that Portmarnock, Portmarnock Links and Baltray are fantastic links. Golf Digest Ireland have Seapoint ranked at 43 and Baltray ranked at 9. I'm not sure there is that much of a gap. But I'd be delighted to play either or both tomorrow or any other day.

I still think sticking a bunker right in the middle of a fairway or a green (a la Mr Norman) is a nonsense.:D

mjsc1970

Defo agree that there should not be that much of a gap between baltray and seapoint. Either way, great places to spend a few hours.

John Divney

Interesting there are trees on Portmarnock old dotted around, wish I new what type, but they seem very appropriate and native, also think the Portmarnock peninsula may be as pure links land as there is in the country.

Next time you are down there walk to the end of the beach and into the course boundaries, the hole with tree lining the right has these trees that really make it and give it an atmosphere of seclusion.

Not encouraging trespassing obviously

FixdePitchmark

No, I like it Trapper. You call it as is - as you see it.

Like you gave Carne a poor enough review - I'd agree with that - but it was just in poor condition too when I played it. Carne is one I need to play again.

People love Rosses Point - yet the opening of Rosses is not a links in a way - the first hole that feels like a "real links" is what - You could say number 10.

If you look at the course top ranked of any links in the world - Royal County Down. It has a couple of holes - that are not links at all.

It has a poor finish - it goes off into a final loop that is only ok. 17 has a water hazard in the middle of the landing area :rolleyes:

18 on RCD would look a bit like opening holes in Baltray. It is a funny finish to a brilliant course.

So even the top Links course in the world has poor holes - and " A bit unlinks like holes".

I'm still looking for the perfect links

Is there such a thing ?

I hope I never find it - but will keep trying

Golfgraffix

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

I'm still looking for the perfect links

Is there such a thing ?

I hope I never find it - but will keep trying

western gailes in Scotland, pure pure links

FixdePitchmark

Golfgraffix wrote: »

western gailes in Scotland, pure pure links

I struggle sometimes to get out in Corballis sometimes - I'll never say never.

But hard to see me get there.

http://www.westerngailes.com/

TrapperChamonix

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

No, I like it Trapper. You call it as is - as you see it.

Like you gave Carne a poor enough review - I'd agree with that - but it was just in poor condition too when I played it. Carne is one I need to play again.

Just so you don't think I'm a constantly depressed golfer, I did give Rosapenna (Sandy Hills & back 9 Old Tom Morris), Seapoint, Connemara & Mt Juliet glowing feedback.

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

So even the top Links course in the world has poor holes - and " A bit unlinks like holes".

I'm still looking for the perfect links

Is there such a thing ?

I hope I never find it - but will keep trying

EXACTLY! We keep looking.

The_Architect

I could go in to a long essay on what does or does not qualify as links land and why.

But I won't.

Interests me that Trapper doesn't like the bunkers in the middle of the 18th fairway at Baltray. This is a very different design trait to putting a bunker in the middle of the green.

Why don't you like this?

TrapperChamonix

The_Architect wrote: »

I could go in to a long essay on what does or does not qualify as links land and why.

But I won't.

Interests me that Trapper doesn't like the bunkers in the middle of the 18th fairway at Baltray. This is a very different design trait to putting a bunker in the middle of the green.

Why don't you like this?

It’s not as if I have any basis on which to pontificate. I’m an average golfer, who’s keen on Links golf. But as you asked, I’ll give you my opinionated view that has very little research or evidence to back it up.:D


I accept the premise that there are many varied definition of what make a Links course, but I would suggest at least one common trait is the impact and variability of the wind. There are 2 significant effects that come in to play in strong winds, 1stly the need to hit the ball low and under the wind and 2ndly the lack of certainty in terms of the individual players distance for each shot. Generally this is due to the inconsistent ball strike but also to the gusting of the wind at any one time. To my mind this puts an onus on the Golf Architect to ensure there is always a route to the hole. You can certainly narrow the route by the use of bunkers either side, but you should be allowed the sanctuary of a good result after hitting your ball down the middle of the fairway (I’ll add at this point that I’d already carved by drive into the bushes on the right). Making you choose one side or the other is just an annoyance. In general I would say the number and positioning of the bunkers in Baltray is really good. Enough to pose a challenge but not to dominate the round but on some holes like the 9th fairway there are enough to put u you under significant pressure. I found the 18th to be out of keeping with that.
I’m well aware that there is pretty good precedence for this given the Hogans Alley in Carnoustie is not too dissimilar. So I accept that I might be in the minority and that many might view this as a positive.

In general (not Baltray), I believe many courses over use bunkers. They are an essential part of any links but they should be used selectively. It’s quite possible to make anything difficult by just putting bunkers everywhere and burying elephants under the green. But just because it can doesn’t mean it should be done. It’s far more pleasing to have a challenging course which is based on the layout rather than a course with 100+ bunkers. Too often architects over use bunkers as an admission that they couldn’t work out what to do with this piece of land to make it a challenge. Carton Montgomery (not a links) is a great example of this. To my eye the best course I’ve played in Ireland (I’ve not played RCD, Portrush, Ballybunion & Lahinch) is Waterville and I’d argue that the last 4 holes are a match for any finishing stretch in the world. I’d say there are less than 10 bunkers in those 4 holes and most of them are on the 18th.





Ironically the best course I’ve ever played was Royal Melbourne, which is all about the bunkers. So go figure.

ThunderCat

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

No, I like it Trapper. You call it as is - as you see it.

Like you gave Carne a poor enough review - I'd agree with that - but it was just in poor condition too when I played it. Carne is one I need to play again.

People love Rosses Point - yet the opening of Rosses is not a links in a way - the first hole that feels like a "real links" is what - You could say number 10.

If you look at the course top ranked of any links in the world - Royal County Down. It has a couple of holes - that are not links at all.

It has a poor finish - it goes off into a final loop that is only ok. 17 has a water hazard in the middle of the landing area :rolleyes:

18 on RCD would look a bit like opening holes in Baltray. It is a funny finish to a brilliant course.

So even the top Links course in the world has poor holes - and " A bit unlinks like holes".

I'm still looking for the perfect links

Is there such a thing ?

I hope I never find it - but will keep trying

In fairness that water hazard is naturally occurring water and not man made. Was there prior to the construction of the course. Agree with you that 14 doesn't feel very linksy but the rest fit the bill in my eyes.

Don't know if the perfect links exists but plenty of links courses in this country come close.

John Divney

https://www.gutenberg.org/files/44623/44623-h/44623-h.htm#Page_215

This is a book called 'The Golf Courses of The Britishh isles' from 1910 by Bernard Darwin

It's brilliant to read the opinion on the old links courses, (and the others)the link above is about the Irish courses the author played. 'Dollymount' as he calls Royal Dublin, Portmarnock, short mention of the island, Lahinch, Portrush and Newcastle.

I've read the whole thing, it really is a great reference for the period.

Extensive talk of the great Scottish and English links, though for some reason Westward Ho is not mentioned, which was a very important club to the development of the game.

Edit: Missed the Westward Ho page, it's in the book, my bad.

TrapperChamonix

John Divney wrote: »

https://www.gutenberg.org/files/44623/44623-h/44623-h.htm#Page_215

This is a book called 'The Golf Courses of The Britishh isles' from 1910 by Bernard Darwin

It's brilliant to read the opinion on the old links courses, (and the others)the link above is about the Irish courses the author played. 'Dollymount' as he calls Royal Dublin, Portmarnock, short mention of the island, Lahinch, Portrush and Newcastle.

I've read the whole thing, it really is a great reference for the period.

Extensive talk of the great Scottish and English links, though for some reason Westward Ho is not mentioned, which was a very important club to the development of the game.

Edit: Missed the Westward Ho page, it's in the book, my bad.

I have to say there is a nice turn of phrase
"I have never seen the Portmarnock greens when they are presumably at their keenest, namely, in hot, dry, summer weather, but even on a raw day at Easter time they demand that the ball should be soothed rather than hit towards the hole."

Nialler15

As a Member of Baltray and someone who plays Seapoint on a regular enough basis I would argue that the two courses are streets apart. In Seapoint the front 9 is not really links. Much more Parkland feel to it. The back 9 really only gets interesting playing 15, 16,17, and 18.

Just my opinion but I wouldnt have them in the same parish in terms of quality. Sure my opinion is going to be biased based on being a member in Baltray.

Barnseire

As far as I remember, Seapoint's greens and aprons while being very good and true, are most definitely parkland. I've played there a few times and have been stunned at how soft and receptive they were for a links. No need to throw stuff short and judge how it's going to bounce. There are great greens, just not what you expect on a links.

Nialler15

Couldnt agree more. The closing 6 are defo more linksy but nothing like the greens next door.

TrapperChamonix

Nialler15 wrote: »

Couldnt agree more. The closing 6 are defo more linksy but nothing like the greens next door.

Fair enough. I bow to local knowledge.

stitcheddepin

delighted to have a diary full of links golf this weeknd. saturday in corballis, followed by sunday in portmarknock hotel.
i couldnt generate excitement to play a wet parklands again this weeknd so we went all out and hopefully we get a good run.
havent played corballis before, it looks like a peach on the website, especially hole 3

TrapperChamonix

Interesting if you have not seen how a bunker is made

benny79

how much was Pormarknock?

FixdePitchmark

benny79 wrote: »

how much was Pormarknock?

Or is it The Island 4/5 - (depends if small par 3 in play) ?

Derek Zoolander

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Or is it The Island 4/5 - (depends if small par 3 in play) ?

its the 16th @ the Island

TrapperChamonix

Derek Zoolander wrote: »

its the 16th @ the Island

Yes the 16th

stitcheddepin

benny79 wrote: »

how much was Pormarknock?

30 bills in golfnow.ie for portmarknock, god we were blessed yesterday. weather was lovely, place was in gud shape, few puddles on one or two fairways, couldn't be helped with all the rain.
my father in law took me down by a few strokes in the end. crafty whore!

Nozebleed

Is there an open competition every friday in portmarnock links? Someone mentioned it to me today. Would definately head out this week if there is an open.

mike12

Nozebleed wrote: »

Is there an open competition every friday in portmarnock links? Someone mentioned it to me today. Would definately head out this week if there is an open.

No not every friday,
Check on their web site rather than the GUI they are very hap hazard it looks like they just decide at the start of a month when to have them.

Nozebleed

Just booked myself in for the open on december 8th (€30). .portmarnock hotel and links. Tee off at 11.30 if anyone wants to join the line.

FixdePitchmark

Played here for the first time today , amazing I hadn't played it and must be 30 years since I was out that way at all. Butlin's Mosney if you can believe .

Course was amazingly busy for a winter Tuesday , a society of vintners were back, who had been rained off before.

It was a bit slow - was looking dodgy to finish the 18 - but glad I made it around as it won't be too often I'll be out there - joined up with 3 members who where the fastest players I've played with in a while - nice lads.

I played the first few holes and found it interesting how close to the town the place is and how close to the road, unusual for a links, it is an exceptionally narrow piece of land, reminding me at times of a bigger Corballis and then on the flat part it is Arklow like.

Loved the first 6 holes along sea and up and down the dunes, the original designers seemed determined to place greens on top of them, is a skill to club correctly.

Very interesting holes from 2 to 6 - the par 5 could have been a great hole - but with modern equipment is only a good drive and mid iron to green.

At the start you feel if the course stays like this - it is an absolute classic.

I got it on a very still day - and with the rough cut back - perhaps the course has no teeth - was not playing particularly well / putting well, but still reached both par 5s in 2 with ease had 3 birdies and finished with the 1 ball 10 over (In other words , scored too easy). The lads I was playing with were encouraging me to hit driver, but a good few of the shorter par 4s - should be played 4/5 iron and wedge / 9 iron after.

So perhaps the course on a still day is another Links, that just doesn't have the length these days , one of the members was saying that they are making it easier too all the time. You are able to get the driver out in the mid section without any real fear. The rough is very short.

Another day with wind is required - it is an out and in course - and could be a long haul into a wind.

So another links knocked off the list - only east coast one to go is Rosslare.

I'm not sure when I'll be back - I feel I will.

ForeRight

Where fix?