Do you know any Communists?

karma_

bluewolf wrote: »

Everyone being equal, sure. Pretending everyone has equal ability, motivation, and so on - no

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs"

It's fine to argue against something but to do so ignorantly is pretty absurd.

karma_

sin_city wrote: »

Freedom and liberty matters, not democracy....I dont want mob rules....Democracy wasn't much good to the Catholics up north was it?

And I'm guessing that freedom in your view means that you are free to do as you choose, except be a communist, can't be having that in a 'free world'.

Mod

Having had a quick look at the ESTA questions, I'm having trouble seeing where it mentions communism. So, I'm going to assume the OP is trolling and action him for same, however seeing as this appears to have sparked a discussion - I'll leave it open.

RonnieRocket do not post in this thread again.

Iwasfrozen

karma_ wrote: »

And I'm guessing that freedom in your view means that you are free to do as you choose, except be a communist, can't be having that in a 'free world'.

Actually quite the contrary. A communist community or worker led factory is free to exist in a capitalist society but capitalists cannot exist in a communist society. Capitalism gives you degrees of freedom communism can't.

Both systems are flawed to an extent but I think it's time all the bored students and star trek fans on boards wake up and realise capitalism is certainly the lesser of two evils.

wendell borton

Don't get this communist cat thing, would have thought they were obviously libertarians.

karma_

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Actually quite the contrary. A communist community or worker led factory is free to exist in a capitalist society but capitalists cannot exist in a communist society. Capitalism gives you degrees of freedom communism can't.

Both systems are flawed to an extent but I think it's time all the bored students and star trek fans on boards wake up and realise capitalism is certainly the lesser of two evils.

Well of course they both do, however that poster was arguing against democracy and peddling libertarian nonsense. Freedom and liberty? Give me a fúckin' break, we can never allowed to be completely free to do whatever we please. Libertarianism is the scariest ideology I've ever heard of.

biko

biko wrote: »

The core in communism is that all men and women are equal,

bluewolf wrote: »

Everyone being equal, sure. Pretending everyone has equal ability, motivation, and so on - no

karma_ wrote: »

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs"

It's fine to argue against something but to do so ignorantly is pretty absurd.

Sure is


Good system anyway
I need a ferrari

karma_

bluewolf wrote: »

Sure is


Good system anyway
I need a ferrari

2+2=5

As flawed as it is it's still a damn sight better than the Randian wet dream you cream yourself over. At the very least it had a noble goal in that it set out to create an equal and fair society for all and not promote some idiocy that selfishness and greed is as noble as a grape. Fúck sake like, how does anyone even buy into that shíte at all? The communists had an excuse, you don't.

karma_

karma_ wrote: »

2+2=5

As flawed as it is it's still a damn sight better than the Randian wet dream you cream yourself over. At the very least it had a noble goal in that it set out to create an equal and fair society for all and not promote some idiocy that selfishness and greed is as noble as a grape. Fúck sake like, how does anyone even buy into that shíte at all? The communists had an excuse, you don't.

Charming arguments for communism there, keep it up.


"Mine's better than yours because you're a stupidhead!!"
lol

karma_

bluewolf wrote: »

Charming arguments for communism there, keep it up.

See this is your problem, I'm not even arguing for communism and you can't even see that.

KyussBishop

In fairness, Libertarianism doesn't need to be disparaged to show the impractical nature of it - it is based on nice sounding ideas ('freedom', 'liberty' - words deliberately left without explicit definition, because then that avoids being able to pin down someones views), and elegant theories (perfect free markets), that don't tend to work as advertised in reality.

The equality discussion is a red herring: Just because humans aren't all equal, doesn't mean a small number of humans should get disproportionate undemocratic power over other humans; excessive amounts of money = power, and more and more amounts of money allows greater and greater power over politics/business/society, in a way that erodes democracy.

It's not about Libertarianism or Communism: You either want a functioning democracy, or you don't. If people don't want democracy, what is it that they do want, who should have power?

KarlMarks

I'd still consider myself to be a communist. A pragmatic one! I grew up in an extremely political household in the 70's and still believe that the writings of Marx present a viable cornerstone on which to base an alternative economic system to the one we have today. That said, it needs to develop and reflect the realities of a society that is radically different to the one that was around when Marx was writing.

The Modern European Left is an appalling state at the moment. There is no direction or sense of modern intellectual engagement with true alternatives. The left has dispelled with the notion that it's really all about the economy stupid, and has instead taken upon itself to focus on social justice issues. The huge problem with this is that the centre-left and centre-right governments that have almost exclusively been in power since the end of the 2nd world war are pretty good at legislating and providing for this.

To be honest, I have less time for the type of Guardianista Leftie so prevalent today than I have for people who can exploit the deeply flawed Capitalist system. The true working class have been left meandering in a morass and there are little true alternatives being proposed. Legislating for such issues as gay marriage will come about through changing societal norms. The liberal right are great at this sort of thing. Us on the left need to focus on the division and responsibility of labour. Time has moved on. The core principals haven't.

The Diabolical Monocle

KarlMarks wrote: »

I'd still consider myself to be a communist. A pragmatic one! I grew up in an extremely political household in the 70's and still believe that the writings of Marx present a viable cornerstone on which to base an alternative economic system to the one we have today. That said, it needs to develop and reflect the realities of a society that is radically different to the one that was around when Marx was writing.

The Modern European Left is an appalling state at the moment. There is no direction or sense of modern intellectual engagement with true alternatives. The left has dispelled with the notion that it's really all about the economy stupid, and has instead taken upon itself to focus on social justice issues. The huge problem with this is that the centre-left and centre-right governments that have almost exclusively been in power since the end of the 2nd world war are pretty good at legislating and providing for this.

To be honest, I have less time for the type of Guardianista Leftie so prevalent today than I have for people who can exploit the deeply flawed Capitalist system. The true working class have been left meandering in a morass and there is little true alternatives being proposed. Legislating for such issues as gay marriage will come about through changing societal norms. The liberal right are great at this sort of thing. Us on the left need to focus on the division and responsibility of labour. Time has moved on. The core principals haven't.

I dont see how any of that relates to cats.

Dont you have a brother called Peter ?? Whats he up to these days.

KyussBishop

KarlMarks wrote: »

I'd still consider myself to be a communist. A pragmatic one! I grew up in an extremely political household in the 70's and still believe that the writings of Marx present a viable cornerstone on which to base an alternative economic system to the one we have today. That said, it needs to develop and reflect the realities of a society that is radically different to the one that was around when Marx was writing.

The Modern European Left is an appalling state at the moment. There is no direction or sense of modern intellectual engagement with true alternatives. The left has dispelled with the notion that it's really all about the economy stupid, and has instead taken upon itself to focus on social justice issues. The huge problem with this is that the centre-left and centre-right governments that have almost exclusively been in power since the end of the 2nd world war are pretty good at legislating and providing for this.

To be honest, I have less time for the type of Guardianista Leftie so prevalent today than I have for people who can exploit the deeply flawed Capitalist system. The true working class have been left meandering in a morass and there is little true alternatives being proposed. Legislating for such issues as gay marriage will come about through changing societal norms. The liberal right are great at this sort of thing. Us on the left need to focus on the division and responsibility of labour. Time has moved on. The core principals haven't.

The problem is though, Marxist economic theories suffer the same problem that todays (dominant/mainstream) neoclassical theories do: Marxists tend to ignore the faults in their own theories, without discarding what is not useful, and adapting what is useful, into other theories.

There's a lot that is useful in the theories, but well, a lot of the economics behind it is just simply wrong; definitely not a good base for economics.
Though I would say the Post-Keynesian school is a much better base (check out big ideas like the Job Guarantee), and will be the future of the left (and right) - it is the alternative economics that is needed in this crisis (which can be used to help people almost immediately), but just isn't well known, and there are barriers to communicating it well.

Dyr

they used to ask you if you were a nazi on that form. I assumed it was because america has filled it's nazi quota

KarlMarks

KyussBishop wrote: »

The problem is though, Marxist economic theories suffer the same problem that todays (dominant/mainstream) neoclassical theories do: Marxists tend to ignore the faults in their own theories, without discarding what is not useful, and adapting what is useful, into other theories.

There's a lot that is useful in the theories, but well, a lot of the economics behind it is just simply wrong; definitely not a good base for economics.
Though I would say the Post-Keynesian school is a much better base (check out big ideas like the Job Guarantee), and will be the future of the left (and right) - it is the alternative economics that is needed in this crisis (which can be used to help people almost immediately), but just isn't well known, and there are barriers to communicating it well.

Why is why I said that the writings of Marx should be used as a cornerstone for alternative solutions, rather than as the template by which we must never depart. Michael O'Leary doesn't read Adam Smith on the way into work before selling cheap flights to the proles.

KyussBishop

KarlMarks wrote: »

Why is why I said that the writings of Marx should be used as a cornerstone for alternative solutions, rather than as the template by which we must never depart. Michael O'Leary doesn't read Adam Smith on the way into work before selling cheap flights to the proles.

Fair enough, I agree that there's a lot of good to be taken from Marx, despite the faults in his theories.

KarlMarks

bluewolf wrote: »

Sure, I would have thought favourable comparisons and accusations of having noble goals were generally positive things. Well, if you're having trouble being understood by people, you can try less vitriol about people "creaming themselves" and "wet dreams" next time.

In fairness, the type of libertarianism espoused by people like the Kock brothers is utter gibberish. It's an interesting concept from a philosophical point of view, but trying to place it into 'real world' scenarios is a waste of time.

That said, those on the Left need to stop accusing everyone who doesn't agree with their world view as being some type of mad, gibbering Libertarian who'd sell his mother's kidneys' for a couple of quid. It's a perverse sort of reverse-McCarthyism. If you don't undersatnd the myriad viewpoints that make up your ideological opposite then your starting out on a terrible path in proposing an alternative.

KarlMarks

Bambi wrote: »

they used to ask you if you were a nazi on that form. I assumed it was because america has filled it's nazi quota

It was a veritable 'human grab' between the Soviets and the US in taking in Nazi scientists and professors after the War. I'd suggest you read Red Moon Rising by Matthew Brzezinki for a compelling account of how it helped to shape the space race.

It might make a refreshing change from taking cheap pot-shots at America. It's another lazy trope these days from those of us on the Left. Blaming 'Merica for everything without having a fresh alternative to a system that allowed it to become the last great Superpower. An ideology based on jealousy and contempt of the alternative isn't healthy. It eats the person up inside.

Arthur Beesley

Does Ming Wallace count?

KarlMarks

Arthur Beesley wrote: »

Does Ming Wallace count?

I doubt Luke's political ideologies extend much past rampant 'me feinism'.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

Pumpkinseeds

Yeah, my brother is a smug communist, he's got some bloody weird ideas. If I'd a gun I'd shoot him and put him the rest of us out of the misery of his ranting bulls*it:P

RonnieRocket

@Fred Swanson:
Thanks for that link. I never mentioned ESTA, I specifically said visa in my OP, so I don't know why mod whoopsadaisydoodles brought that up. Since this is Ireland, I don't suppose there will be any accountability and the mod will put her hands up and admit she was wrong. I won't hold my breath for an apology.

Iwasfrozen

Pumpkinseeds wrote: »

Yeah, my brother is a smug communist, he's got some bloody weird ideas. If I'd a gun I'd shoot him and put him the rest of us out of the misery of his ranting bulls*it:P

Don't worry he'll grow out of it.

Femme_Fatale

Meh, my preferred ideology is one that blends aspects of socialism (state protections for those less equipped for being self sufficient) and aspects of capitalism (being able to set up your own business).
I don't get these "One or the other" type people at all at all.

We're individuals at times, but we're a society at times too - there's no getting away from it.

Mjollnir

sin_city wrote: »

The USA is the 19th century was a free capitalist society....that's were people went in huge numbers.....I never saw anyone from West Berlin moving east.

LOL! The institution of slavery and the Robber Barons of the Gilded age just called for you.

Didn't leave any message.

Wow. I mean just WOW.

Karl Stein

Mjollnir wrote: »

LOL! The institution of slavery and the Robber Barons of the Gilded age just called for you.

There was also serious protectionist measures taken by the US that allowed its nascent industries to compete with the more established nations like Britain and France.

For centuries England has relied on protection, has carried it to extremes and has obtained satisfactory results from it. There is no doubt that it is to this system that it owes its present strength. After two centuries, England has found it convenient to adopt free trade because it thinks that protection can no longer offer it anything. Very well then, Gentlemen, my knowledge of our country leads me to believe that within 200 years, when America has gotten out of protection all that it can offer, it too will adopt free trade.

Ulysses S. Grant, POTUS from 1868 to 1876

It was also a time when the farmers and crofters owned the means of production together and used to harvest together... like.. communists!

Fred Swanson

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

It's not a good idea to argue a mod warning on thread, however thanks for the link, I stand corrected and thread ban lifted.

RonnieRocket wrote: »

@Fred Swanson:
Thanks for that link. I never mentioned ESTA, I specifically said visa in my OP, so I don't know why mod whoopsadaisydoodles brought that up. Since this is Ireland, I don't suppose there will be any accountability and the mod will put her hands up and admit she was wrong. I won't hold my breath for an apology.

See my response to Fred Swanson.

It's worth noting that you did in fact breach your thread ban before it was lifted, you don't get to decide when and if you can do that so in the future, drop me a PM or report the post first.

If you have anything further you want to discuss about this, you can do so via PM.

Edit: well that was a waste of time, turns out the OP is a re reg troll who has now been sitebanned.

wendell borton

sin_city wrote: »

I never saw anyone from West Berlin moving east.

Angela Merkels family moved east.