Withholding last months rent

Shadylou · 18-02-2014 6:28am #1

I have a bit of a problem, have been renting a house for the past 6 years but due to a relationship break up, I can't afford to keep renting such a big house.
I live in an urban area so there are few properties with good facilities like a front and back garden which are essential to me as I have kids. My ex is paying what he can afford but it's just not feasible to keep this lovely house on.
I asked the landlord for a rent reduction as my circumstances have changed but he just laughed at me and told me he was actually considering a rent increase soon:mad:
I've been looking around but suitable properties are few and far between, a friend has let me know that her neighbours are moving out and the house is perfect for us. I met with the landlord and he is keeping the rent at the current price, the only problem is that the outgoing tenants also have a friend who wants to live there but they can't move in til the end of March so the landlord has said that if I move in at the start of march the house is mine otherwise he will let it to the other couple who have no kids so the wear and tear would be a lot less. I had to agree to this as I really want the house.
I haven't paid my rent for this month yet because I had to give the new landlord a deposit and I know it's really crappy of me to do this but I don't think I have any other choice, I can't afford to pay rent on 2 houses for March .
Realistically can my current landlord sue me for unpaid rent (I obviously won't be getting my deposit back) I'm sick with worry over this, I still have 3 months left on my current lease and I'll only be giving 1 weeks notice?

mountai · 18-02-2014 6:45am

Not all LLs are the Ogres that some make them out to be. You have been living there for 6 years and probably a good tenant. Play it straight with your existing LL and explain your situation. It might surprise you that his reaction could be kindly. Did you give a deposit? , if so maby some sort of deal could be worked out taking the deposit into account.

Shadylou · 18-02-2014 6:53am

That what I want to do....in an ideal situation, the landlord would hold onto the deposit as my rent for this month. In my opinion the house is in turnkey condition but if the landlord found any damage that could not be attributed to wear and tear, (can he charge me for re painting the house as it has not been painted in the past 6 years) and give me a receipt then I will pay for that damage. I'm also prepared to pay to have the house listed on daft.
I know it's ridiculously short notice but I don't know what else to do

godtabh · 18-02-2014 7:08am

Shadylou wrote: »

That what I want to do....in an ideal situation, the landlord would hold onto the deposit as my rent for this month. In my opinion the house is in turnkey condition but if the landlord found any damage that could not be attributed to wear and tear, (can he charge me for re painting the house as it has not been painted in the past 6 years) and give me a receipt then I will pay for that damage. I'm also prepared to pay to have the house listed on daft.
I know it's ridiculously short notice but I don't know what else to do

you have been there 6 years. Your notice is more than 28 days. Its 46 (you would need to double check) I think. You'll owe more than one months rent

mountai · 18-02-2014 7:11am

Look , in this situation , you hold all the Aces. You have to be prepared to walk away from your deposit however. Redecoration is the LLs responsibility and after 6 years he must expect to do this in order to rent to new tenants. At the end of the day, you must do what is right for you and your children, just try not to burn any bridges if possible. Speaking as a LL I have every sympathy for your situation and personally would be prepared to "suck it up" if you were previously a good tenant and played it straight with me. Bite the bullet and talk to him.

mrkiscool2 · 18-02-2014 7:11am

Shadylou wrote: »

That what I want to do....in an ideal situation, the landlord would hold onto the deposit as my rent for this month. In my opinion the house is in turnkey condition but if the landlord found any damage that could not be attributed to wear and tear, (can he charge me for re painting the house as it has not been painted in the past 6 years) and give me a receipt then I will pay for that damage. I'm also prepared to pay to have the house listed on daft.
I know it's ridiculously short notice but I don't know what else to do

No, that would be considered normal wear and tear. These things happen in houses, carpets get frayed, wood gets scratched etc. he can't charge you for things that you would expect to happen in a house that was lived in.

Talk to him about using the deposit in lieu of last month's rent. He doesn't have to do this and if he doesn't then you'll have to think of some other solution. If he is anyway decent he should though, given the circumstances and the condition you say the property is in.

The_Conductor · 18-02-2014 7:12am

Technically you are supposed to give 56 days notice, as you have a tenant in the property for 2 or more years. In addition- you are not supposed to presume you can use your deposit for the last month's rent.

You've been a good tenant for the last 6 years, and seem to get on ok with the landlord- there is nothing to say he or she isn't approachable- talk to them and see, perhaps you may come to a mutually agreeable solution.

drunkmonkey · 18-02-2014 7:13am

That's not how deposits work, expect the landlord to get unreasonable as you've given their rent to someone else.
You need to talk to them first thing this morning and get it settled, as you've been there 6 years they should be ok with you.
You can suggest using the deposit for the rent and they might agree if you explain how tight things are, do not say your not paying your rent, be prepared to pay it, you may need to borrow from family or friends.
You mentioned its a small place, it's quite possible both landlords know each other just be conscious of that if your going to default on your lease and rent.

Shadylou · 18-02-2014 7:20am

I can't afford to give the landlord any money, I've asked family and friends for a loan but just can't raise enough money for 2 lots of rent. My landlord has been quite nasty to me since I asked for the rent reduction, when he called to service the heating at Xmas I wished him a merry Xmas and gave him a card and a box of roses he just grunted a thanks and asked me was I still thinking of moving.
When I told him I was because I can't afford the house he got really annoyed and kept saying I'll be staying put til May no matter what happens.
I signed a new lease last May that says I have to give 28 days notice

Michael D Not Higgins · 18-02-2014 7:20am

OP you should reassign your lease. 1 week's notice is hardly fair to the landlord.

Also if I'm reading it right have you not paid rent for February?

Shadylou · 18-02-2014 7:25am

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

OP you should reassign your lease. 1 week's notice is hardly fair to the landlord.

Also if I'm reading it right have you not paid rent for February?

No I haven't....he hasn't been in touch about it yet.
I've asked around if anyone wants to take over the lease but I have been honest with them and said that he will be looking to increase the rent so funnily enough no one wants to take on a 3 month lease that will more than likely have a rent increase at the end of it.
I know what I'm doing is crap but I'm trying to be as fair as I can

The_Conductor · 18-02-2014 7:27am

Shadylou wrote: »

I can't afford to give the landlord any money, I've asked family and friends for a loan but just can't raise enough money for 2 lots of rent. My landlord has been quite nasty to me since I asked for the rent reduction, when he called to service the heating at Xmas I wished him a merry Xmas and gave him a card and a box of roses he just grunted a thanks and asked me was I still thinking of moving.
When I told him I was because I can't afford the house he got really annoyed and kept saying I'll be staying put til May no matter what happens.
I signed a new lease last May that says I have to give 28 days notice

If you signed a new lease last may, presumably for a year, you are liable for the property until the elapse of the lease. You can ask to reassign the lease by all means, and find a new tenant for the remainder of the lease, if the landlord is amenable to it- but the landlord is technically correct- you are liable, unless you reassign this liability, until the elapse of the lese.

The notice period, given how long you've been a tenant- is actually 56 days. The landlord can shorten this at his or her discretion to a shorter period of time- however, under the Residential Tenancies Act- its 56 days notice you are supposed to give.

You do *not* have the right to not pay rent, presume the deposit is in lieu of rent- or come up with any other reason for not paying the rent. You are 100% in the wrong here.

Rents have increased markedly in the last 2 years- particularly for the property type you are describing (though of course this also depends on location). It would appear to a casual observer that an increase in rent would be expected in this case- on the renewal of the lease (in May), or sooner, if the rent was not reappraised on the last rent renewal.

I'm sorry, I genuinely am- but you're finding excuses here and trying to justify things that you probably know you have absolutely no right to do.

18-02-2014 7:29am

If you have a fixed term lease until the end of May, your landlord can take a case against you for rent right up until the end of the lease. i.e. February, March, April, & May.

You need to talk to him ASAP.

Shadylou · 18-02-2014 7:31am

I know I have no right to do this but sometimes circumstances get on top of you and I have to think of my kids.
I'm just asking how can I make this easier on the landlord ( I cannot pay the rent) and if they can sue me
My friend has told me to just stop paying rent and get the landlord to evict me (I would leave just as soon as the 14 day notice arrived)but I don't think that's fair either.

drunkmonkey · 18-02-2014 7:34am

You can pay the rent, stop saying you can't. What your not in a position to do is take the other house as you can't afford it and your also in a lease, there'll be other house between now and may.

18-02-2014 7:35am

The short answer is yes. He can take a case against you for outstanding rents owed.

The_Conductor · 18-02-2014 7:38am

Shadylou wrote: »

I know I have no right to do this but sometimes circumstances get on top of you and I have to think of my kids.
I'm just asking how can I make this easier on the landlord ( I cannot pay the rent) and if they can sue me
My friend has told me to just stop paying rent and get the landlord to evict me (I would leave just as soon as the 14 day notice arrived)but I don't think that's fair either.

It doesn't work that way.
A landlord has to issue you with a 14 day notice of non-payment of rent.
After the elapse of this period- he can begin eviction proceedings.
You are still liable for the accumulated rent- and indeed the rent to the end of the lease.
The landlord brings a PRTB case against you- and secures a judgement against you.
Any future landlord can see this judgement on the PRTB website (have a look yourself- there are thousands of them there, you can google specific names etc).

You are still liable for any unpaid rent, and indeed rent until the end of the lease (or until the landlord relets the property on a minimum of similar terms to those afforded to you), along with any reletting costs the landlord occurs.

Getting evicted? You can't be serious? Do you intend to live in this neighbourhood again?

Shadylou · 18-02-2014 7:41am

drunkmonkey wrote: »

You can pay the rent, stop saying you can't. What your not in a position to do is take the other house as you can't afford it and your also in a lease, there'll be other house between now and may.

I CANT pay the rent simple as. I'm not pleading the poor mouth just to get out of this. You don't have a clue what my financial situation is.
I have been looking for a suitable home for the past 8 months and this is the first house that's come up and it hasn't even been advertised on daft it was only due to a friend I heard about it

The_Conductor · 18-02-2014 7:45am

Shadylou wrote: »

I CANT pay the rent simple as. I'm not pleading the poor mouth just to get out of this. You don't have a clue what my financial situation is.
I have been looking for a suitable home for the past 8 months and this is the first house that's come up and it hasn't even been advertised on daft it was only due to a friend I heard about it

Why would this landlord contemplate taking you on as a tenant when you've screwed over your current landlord- who is within his rights to take a case against you? You seem to have very skewed priorities.

drunkmonkey · 18-02-2014 7:50am

Shadylou wrote: »

I CANT pay the rent simple as. I'm not pleading the poor mouth just to get out of this. You don't have a clue what my financial situation is.
I have been looking for a suitable home for the past 8 months and this is the first house that's come up and it hasn't even been advertised on daft it was only due to a friend I heard about it

You've told everyone here what your financial situation is, you've also told us your not paying your rent as your giving a deposit to a different landlord.
You've also used your children as an excuse for your behaviour, I'm not sure what you want anyone here to say to you or what advice you were hoping for.

Michael D Not Higgins · 18-02-2014 7:50am

Shadylou wrote: »

I CANT pay the rent simple as. I'm not pleading the poor mouth just to get out of this. You don't have a clue what my financial situation is.
I have been looking for a suitable home for the past 8 months and this is the first house that's come up and it hasn't even been advertised on daft it was only due to a friend I heard about it

So you've been looking for practically the entire time of your new lease. You should have notified the landlord earlier. Then he wouldn't have been sprung with this suddenly.

sawdoubters · 18-02-2014 7:51am

can you rent out a room or two to help pay

Shadylou · 18-02-2014 7:52am

I'm so glad I started this thread to get some simple advise on how to make a difficult situation easier. I thought I'd get some constructive advise but even I couldn't have imagined that the people answering would know all about my financial situation and priorities and be able to comment on these.
Obviously the posters here have never gotten themselves into a situation like this and I hope they never will.

Michael D Not Higgins · 18-02-2014 7:54am

Shadylou wrote: »

I'm so glad I started this thread to get some simple advise on how to make a difficult situation easier. I thought I'd get some constructive advise but even I couldn't have imagined that the people answering would know all about my financial situation and priorities and be able to comment on these.
Obviously the posters here have never gotten themselves into a situation like this and I hope they never will.

That's because we don't sit on our hands for 8 months then spring the problem on the landlord with one week's notice and a month's rent in arrears.

Shadylou · 18-02-2014 7:55am

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

That's because we don't sit on our hands for 8 months then spring the problem on the landlord with one week's notice and a month's rent in arrears.

Again, thank you for your unique understanding of my family situation and what I have been doing for the past 8 months.
I signed the lease last May to secure a home for my children, I asked for a rent reduction in August as my hours were cut in work and let the landlord know then that I was looking for another place.

sawdoubters · 18-02-2014 7:57am

help with rent

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/social_welfare_payments/supplementary_welfare_schemes/rent_supplement.html

Shadylou · 18-02-2014 7:59am

sawdoubters wrote: »

help with rent

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/social_welfare_payments/supplementary_welfare_schemes/rent_supplement.html

Thanks for that....I did enquire about that last august but as the rent on the house is was about the allowance I don't qualify

Michael D Not Higgins · 18-02-2014 8:01am

Shadylou wrote: »

Again, thank you for your unique understanding of my family situation and what I have been doing for the past 8 months.
I signed the lease last May to secure a home for my children, I asked for a rent reduction in August as my hours were cut in work and let the landlord know then that I was looking for another place.

OK so the landlord knows. He's expecting you to move at some stage. Why are you telling us? Ring the landlord and find a solution but be prepared to have to pay.

Contrary to what was already said, you're not liable for the remainder of the lease, just the amount accrued until the landlord rents it out again (however this could be until May but is very unlikely).

Arbiter of Good Taste · 18-02-2014 8:19am

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

OK so the landlord knows. He's expecting you to move at some stage. Why are you telling us? Ring the landlord and find a solution but be prepared to have to pay.

Contrary to what was already said, you're not liable for the remainder of the lease, just the amount accrued until the landlord rents it out again (however this could be until May but is very unlikely).

Presumably, though, the landlord is under no obligation to rent it out again until the term of the lease is over. So technically the OP could be stuck with owing the rent until May in any event?

Michael D Not Higgins · 18-02-2014 8:39am

Arbiter of Good Taste wrote: »

Presumably, though, the landlord is under no obligation to rent it out again until the term of the lease is over. So technically the OP could be stuck with owing the rent until May in any event?

No they are obliged to rent as soon as possible, i.e. the house must be available to be rented. Also it appears that the landlord included a break clause of 28 days notice so I'd say OP is liable for the month's arrears and the portion of 28 days when it is not rented.

Shadylou · 18-02-2014 8:57am

How will the landlord try to claim this money from me?
Will he have to raise a duspute through the prtb?

Michael D Not Higgins · 18-02-2014 9:03am

Shadylou wrote: »

How will the landlord try to claim this money from me?
Will he have to raise a duspute through the prtb?

If you don't come to an agreement privately, yes the PRTB would be his next port of call.

stateofflux · 18-02-2014 9:34am

Shadylou wrote: »

How will the landlord try to claim this money from me?
Will he have to raise a duspute through the prtb?

yes,assuming he is registered (he can be fined for non registration), the prtb process could take months

Shadylou · 18-02-2014 11:20am

Both myself and my ex would be willing to come to an agreement with him to pay this months rent

The_Conductor · 18-02-2014 11:42am

Shadylou wrote: »

Both myself and my ex would be willing to come to an agreement with him to pay this months rent

Well- talk to him, open communication channels with him- thats the first step.

Arbiter of Good Taste · 18-02-2014 12:28pm

Shadylou wrote: »

Both myself and my ex would be willing to come to an agreement with him to pay this months rent

I'm not trying to be mean, but you already have an agreement with the landlord to pay the rent - it's called a lease, which you signed in good faith.

I think you have not handled this well at all. But what's done is done. You say that the landlord is decent and that you have been living there for six years. In that case be upfront, you might find the landlord is willing to come to some compromise - landlords are human too, not faceless ogres. He got six years out of you,and if you have otherwise been good tenants he might be decent about it.

You don't know what the landlords financial issues are. He might have a house full of children and be up to his eyes in debt, so wouldn't be too happy to check his bank statement and find you haven't paid your rent.

For your own sake, the last thing you need is for this to start going down official routes.

Sligo1 · 18-02-2014 2:19pm

Shadylou, do you know if the LL is registered with the PRTB?

Shadylou · 18-02-2014 4:19pm

Yeah he is...i just rang him there to tell him and i ended up hangung up the phobe he got so abusive, i'll let my ex deal with him from now on

stateofflux · 18-02-2014 4:27pm

Shadylou wrote: »

Yeah he is...i just rang him there to tell him and i ended up hangung up the phobe he got so abusive, i'll let my ex deal with him from now on

did he just say he was or did you ring the prtb? landlords tend to flip when they are not registered and prtb is mentioned

odds_on · 18-02-2014 4:37pm

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

No they are obliged to rent as soon as possible, i.e. the house must be available to be rented. Also it appears that the landlord included a break clause of 28 days notice so I'd say OP is liable for the month's arrears and the portion of 28 days when it is not rented.

AS the Op has been renting the house for some six years, a clause in a lease allowing 28 days notice would be invalid. The required notice is 56 days minimum. However, at the time of the written notice or thereafter, the landlord and tenant may mutually agree a shorter or longer period.

Shadylou · 18-02-2014 4:42pm

We got a letter from the prtb when we first moved in saying our tenancy is registered

djimi · 18-02-2014 4:45pm

Whether the tenancy is registered or not makes no real difference; unless the landlord is a serial offender they will just be asked to back pay the registration and they will get on with their claim.

Michael D Not Higgins · 18-02-2014 4:48pm

odds_on wrote: »

AS the Op has been renting the house for some six years, a clause in a lease allowing 28 days notice would be invalid. The required notice is 56 days minimum. However, at the time of the written notice or thereafter, the landlord and tenant may mutually agree a shorter or longer period.

But a lease can enhance your rights and appears to be the case in this instance

I signed a new lease last May that says I have to give 28 days notice

mountai · 18-02-2014 4:52pm

Shadylou wrote: »

Yeah he is...i just rang him there to tell him and i ended up hangung up the phobe he got so abusive, i'll let my ex deal with him from now on

Well if that's the reaction you got I would advise. Put everything in writing to him. Explain your circumstances , and emphasise your efforts to negotiate. Point out his attitude was abusive on the phone making it impossible to reach a settlement. Acknowledge the debt you owe him and suggest you will honour this debt at whatever you can afford to pay off per week. Do the necessary to ensure your and your children are housed in the new place. Make sure you do start to pay off the outstanding amount immediately and continue to do so. Judges and PRTB realise that "You cant get blood out of a stone" and the fact that you are making a genuine effort to pay him off, will be in your favour should he decide to take matters further. Most LLs have been happy to try to negotiate a reasonable settlement with a tenant of six years standing , there is NEVER an occasion where abuse is justified.

godtabh · 18-02-2014 4:55pm

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

But a lease can enhance your rights and appears to be the case in this instance

You cant sign away your rights. Its a statutory clause under part 4 of the act. You could have signed a lease with one days notice. Its not valid.

Michael D Not Higgins · 18-02-2014 4:57pm

godtabh wrote: »

You cant sign away your rights. Its a statutory clause under part 4 of the act. You could have signed a lease with one days notice. Its not valid.

But surely a break clause with a shorter notice period on the part of the tenant is increasing their rights, no? That's how I read it. It's not the landlord giving less notice than required.

Unless you're arguing that the landlord is entitled to the full notice and they can't sign away their rights?

Sligo1 · 18-02-2014 5:11pm

djimi wrote: »

Whether the tenancy is registered or not makes no real difference; unless the landlord is a serial offender they will just be asked to back pay the registration and they will get on with their claim.

Thanks, I was actually going to ask this question next

MouseTail · 18-02-2014 5:52pm

OP, best case scenario here is LL calms down, realises you are a good tenant of 6 years, he cant get blood from a stone, he relets at a higher rent, and that's the end of it. That's what I would do if i was the LL. However this will only work if the place is left immaculate. Leave the kids with your ex this weekend and scrub the place, including walls and woodwork. Hope it works out for you.

odds_on · 18-02-2014 6:11pm

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

But surely a break clause with a shorter notice period on the part of the tenant is increasing their rights, no? That's how I read it. It's not the landlord giving less notice than required.

Unless you're arguing that the landlord is entitled to the full notice and they can't sign away their rights?

To quote the RTA 2004, section 69

69.—(1) Subject to subsection (2), the landlord or tenant may agree to a lesser period of notice being given than that required by a preceding provision of this Chapter and such lesser period of notice may be given accordingly.
(2) Such an agreement to a lesser period of notice being given may only be entered into at, or after, the time it is indicated to the tenant or landlord (as appropriate) by the other party that he or she intends to terminate the tenancy.
(3) For the avoidance of doubt, a term of a lease or tenancy agreement cannot constitute such an agreement.

Michael D Not Higgins · 18-02-2014 6:14pm

odds_on wrote: »

To quote the RTA 2004, section 69

Grand so

Sakinah · 18-02-2014 8:06pm

OP if I was you I would check if the LL is still registered with the PRTB
https://portal.prtb.ie/public_registrations.aspx

maybe their membership has elapsed - it's a 4 year membership then it has to be re-registered

http://www.prtb.ie/landlords/helpful-info-documents

Yes you are not doing the right thing by your landlord cutting and running with almost no notice - but sometimes you have to put the best interests of your children in front of your landlord.

In saying that - he may want to pursue you , it does happen, it happened to a friend of mine and she was pursued (having left because there were structural problems causing issues) and the judgement ruled against her. But they were not asked for a lump sum, it was a monthly amount and she would be on a pretty good salary so even if you were pursued, they would have to work out a payment plan for you. The cost of his legal fees would be on you too.

But the landlord may not want the hassle for the sake of 3.5 months rent (Feb, April, Mar and some of May?). One of which is now covered by your deposit.

I wouldn't worry too much. Leave it spotless, transfer him money for re-advertising and get on with your life, your family is more important and don't let it get you down.

Withholding last months rent

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