Arguing the speeding ticket

blackwhite

djimi wrote: »

Out of curiosity, what happens if a company secretary nominates a driver for points, and the driver turns around and says that they werent the ones driving? Does the onus then pass to the driver to prove their innocence, or does the secretary have to prove that the driver was the one driving at the time? And if so, to what level must they prove that the driver was driving (assuming there isnt a sign out/in sheet for vehicles or something to that effect)?

God only knows!

I'd imagine they'd ask for the CoSec to testify in court that the nominated person was in possession of the vehicle.
It'd then be up to the person to testify otherwise.

TBH, if your employer testifies, under oath, that you were in possession of, and responsible for, the car, would you really be willing to give a defence of "it wasn't me and I don't know who was driving it"? Seems like a one-way ticket to 1) a conviction and 2) potential disciplinary problems from work.

djimi

Well Im kinda working off the assumption that the person wasnt actually driving! I suppose my question was what is to stop the secretary nominating someone just to make their own problem go away (where for instance they dont know who was driving)?

keithclancy

djimi wrote: »

Well Im kinda working off the assumption that the person wasnt actually driving! I suppose my question was what is to stop the secretary nominating someone just to make their own problem go away (where for instance they dont know who was driving)?

I think the employer would then just fire them.

djimi

keithclancy wrote: »

I think the employer would then just fire them.

Not much use to the poor driver who is landed with a fine and points for an offense that they didnt commit though?

biko

The driver and the secretary go to the Thunderdome.

blackwhite

djimi wrote: »

Well Im kinda working off the assumption that the person wasnt actually driving! I suppose my question was what is to stop the secretary nominating someone just to make their own problem go away (where for instance they dont know who was driving)?

If they went down that road then I'd imagine it'd eventually end up as a day in court with the word of the CoSec against the word of the employee.

Given that they'd have no way of knowing what proof the employ may have that they weren't driving I'm not sure that the CoSec would be willing to perjure themselves. A conviction for perjury would most likely result in an action from the Director of Corporate Enforcement and in the CoSec being disqualified from being legally permitted to serve as an officer of a company, meaning that they'd be out of a job.
That's one hell of a risk for the CoSec to take, all to avoid the hassle of finding out who was actually driving.

corktina

djimi wrote: »

Not much use to the poor driver who is landed with a fine and points for an offense that they didnt commit though?

It's an interesting point. Can a conviction be made on a the evidence of someone with a vested in terest in blaming someone (anyone) else?

blackwhite

corktina wrote: »

It's an interesting point. Can a conviction be made on a the evidence of someone with a vested in terest in blaming someone (anyone) else?

If that person is willing to commit perjury, and the accused fails to present any evidence to contradict them, then yes!

gizmo555

blackwhite wrote: »

In practice, I can't imagine anyone being stupid enough not to identify the driver - nobody except you is arguing that they would be.

What if they genuinely don't know? What if I'm the company secretary summoned to court, and I'm able to prove beyond doubt I was on holiday in Malta when the speeding offence occurred on the Mullingar bypass, but I swear on oath that I don't know who was driving the car?

The court can't convict me of speeding in the face of irrefutable proof of my innocence ("it shall be presumed, until the contrary is shown that he or she [the company officer concerned] was driving or otherwise using the vehicle at the time of the commission of the said alleged offence.")

blackwhite

gizmo555 wrote: »

What if they genuinely don't know? What if I'm the company secretary summoned to court, and I'm able to prove beyond doubt I was on holiday in Malta when the speeding offence occurred on the Mullingar bypass, but I swear on oath that I don't know who was driving the car?

The court can't convict me of speeding in the face of irrefutable proof of my innocence ("it shall be presumed, until the contrary is shown that he or she [the company officer concerned] was driving or otherwise using the vehicle at the time of the commission of the said alleged offence.")

Then there'd be a very strong argument that you're either in dereliction of your fiduciary duties as company secretary, or that you're just refusing to identify the driver. A judge would more likely deem it to be the second option, and could potentially find you in contempt and/or apply the penalties which are prescribed for failing to identify the driver.

The CoSec (or the nominated officer) is legally responsible for the vehicle, and for having some process in place to control who has access to the vehicle.
I severely doubt you'd find a company where nobody would be able to ascertain who'd been in possession of one of the companies €20k+ value assets at a given time.


Say it's your personal car that's recorded speeding in Mullingar, and yet you have proof that you were in Malta. Do you think a judge is going to accept that you have no idea who was driving your car?
Legally, there is no difference in such a scenario between it being company-owned or privately owned.

gizmo555

blackwhite wrote: »

Then there'd be a very strong argument that you're either in dereliction of your fiduciary duties as company secretary, or that you're just refusing to identify the driver. A judge would more likely deem it to be the second option, and could potentially find you in contempt and/or apply the penalties which are prescribed for failing to identify the driver.

The CoSec (or the nominated officer) is legally responsible for the vehicle, and for having some process in place to control who has access to the vehicle.
I severely doubt you'd find a company where nobody would be able to ascertain who'd been in possession of one of the companies €20k+ value assets at a given time.

You're into the realms of pure speculation now, not to mention that the person who would be deemed to be the driver is not necessarily the company secretary. The part of the 2004 Act you linked doesn't actually mention company secretaries at all.

blackwhite wrote: »

Say it's your personal car that's recorded speeding in Mullingar, and yet you have proof that you were in Malta. Do you think a judge is going to accept that you have no idea who was driving your car?

I can easily imagine a situation where I have a fair idea but cannot state with certainty.

blackwhite

gizmo555 wrote: »

You're into the realms of pure speculation now

What exactly would you describe most of your own "hypothetical" situations as on this thread then?? (other than trying to distract from some claims you made on the first page which have been repeatedly shown to be incorrect)

gizmo555 wrote: »

not to mention that the person who would be deemed to be the driver is not necessarily the company secretary. The part of the 2004 Act you linked doesn't actually mention company secretaries at all.

If you want to be as pedantic as possible to distract from the false claims you previously made then go ahead.

It's either the CoSec or another nominated officer. The Act talks about " the individual who applied for registration."
Legally speaking, the only people who can apply for anything in the name of a company are the legal officers of the company - i.e. the Directors and the CoSec - or somebody authorised by the board by way of resolution.
In practice, an administrator/accountant or somebody else employed by the company will actually complete the documentation, but it will need to be in the name of/signed off by one of the officers, most commonly the CoSec.

The 2004 Act then states that the person who registers the vehicle is the one who is deemed to have been driving - i.e. it will usually be the CoSec, or in some cases a Director.

gizmo555 wrote: »

I can easily imagine a situation where I have a fair idea but cannot state with certainty.

Are you really trying to say that you'd go off on holidays and leave your car for the general use of multiple people, without someone being responsible for it? And you'd have know way of identifying who used it whilst committing an offence?
Once you have a "fair idea" you'd be expected to identify whoever you think it was and then let the gardaí investigate them.