The ASTI/TUI ballots on the JCSA. Are they worth anything?

Peter Flynt

The ASTI and the TUI are going to ballot their members yet again - this time on the implementation of the "new" JCSA.

Anyone connected with teaching knows that this "new" JCSA is all about forcing teachers to do the work (for free naturally) of those who were once paid to do it in the SEC. It is also about a dumbing down of standards as expectations required of 15 year olds fall.

But after the Haddington Road ballots - Are these ballots effectively worthless?

We all know that Haddington Road ballots were always going to be re-run until a YES was secured.

What then is the purpose of these ballots?

Are the unions using the JCSA in order to make themselves relevant again?

Because, in my view, all ASTI and TUI members will end up doing the JCSA.

So are these ballots effectively worthless? A PR stunt?

http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0214/504414-junior-cert-reform/

Furthermore the role of the media and education "partners" in the NAPD and JMB will once again be interesting here. Will the State apparatus be ramped up again just like last year. . . .as they've all gone suddenly quiet since Haddington Road was forced through (with added bullying and threats from Quinn).

acequion

I certainly hope they're worth something,Peter. While I agree that this new gung ho attitude by ASTI and TUI is indeed trying to make themselves relevant,don't forget that at the end of the day we members can have a big influence if we vote and vote wisely.

At the very least if we can get this thing stalled until after Quinn goes,we will have achieved something. If they get English in in September then the new JCSA will technically be up and running, so we must ensure that does not happen.

Ultimately the Government will most likely get its way,as it always does in Ireland. However the longer it's pushed back,the better,in my viewpoint.

evolving_doors

I'd agree ..it's endgame time now..if english gets in then it's game over..

Like project maths..once the courses were being attended then the line from almighty above was.."teachers are supporting it it's a success"

Boober Fraggle

Was English not the only thing on the cards for next September anyway? I don't see what has changed.

I think the union response has been a disgrace. It is not now that we should be saying we will not cooperate with this, this ballet should have been held when the framework was published. The unions look pathetic fighting against it now. I know they will say that they were hoping for consultation, but the publication of the framework before any level of consultation should have made us all aware of our place in Quinn's world.

endakenny

acequion wrote: »

I certainly hope they're worth something,Peter. While I agree that this new gung ho attitude by ASTI and TUI is indeed trying to make themselves relevant,don't forget that at the end of the day we members can have a big influence if we vote and vote wisely.

At the very least if we can get this thing stalled until after Quinn goes,we will have achieved something. If they get English in in September then the new JCSA will technically be up and running, so we must ensure that does not happen.

Ultimately the Government will most likely get its way,as it always does in Ireland. However the longer it's pushed back,the better,in my viewpoint.

The fact that teachers will still be doing the HRA hours and the S&S even if the industrial action is approved by the unions means that the action wouldn't be a breach of HRA. Surely, most secondary teachers know that they would be shooting themselves in the foot if they failed to take action against the new JC system.

If the new system still goes ahead and teachers are subject to pressure by principals to give marks that don't reflect the quality of the pupils' answers to the examination questions then they should report these principals to the Teaching Council.

HRA21

Peter Flynt wrote: »

The ASTI and the TUI are going to ballot their members yet again - this time on the implementation of the "new" JCSA.

Anyone connected with teaching knows that this "new" JCSA is all about forcing teachers to do the work (for free naturally) of those who were once paid to do it in the SEC. It is also about a dumbing down of standards as expectations required of 15 year olds fall.

But after the Haddington Road ballots - Are these ballots effectively worthless?

We all know that Haddington Road ballots were always going to be re-run until a YES was secured.

What then is the purpose of these ballots?

Are the unions using the JCSA in order to make themselves relevant again?

Because, in my view, all ASTI and TUI members will end up doing the JCSA.

So are these ballots effectively worthless? A PR stunt?

http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0214/504414-junior-cert-reform/

Furthermore the role of the media and education "partners" in the NAPD and JMB will once again be interesting here. Will the State apparatus be ramped up again just like last year. . . .as they've all gone suddenly quiet since Haddington Road was forced through (with added bullying and threats from Quinn).

Thank you peter for starting this debate.
You're correct all teachers will end up doing the jcsa, but maybe not in its current pathetic format. The current junior cert does need changing but its shouldn't be completely discarded. Teachers should use this ballot to give themselves some breathing space for the next few years and to give Quinn the kick in the the arse that he is long overdue. At least it might make us feel a little happier.
Word of warning .... Tui and Asti better be on the same side this time. Id be happier if I knew the Tui result before I voted. Too many times weve been out on a limb being undermined by the tui.

endakenny

HRA21 wrote: »

Thank you peter for starting this debate.
You're correct all teachers will end up doing the jcsa, but maybe not in its current pathetic format. The current junior cert does need changing but its shouldn't be completely discarded. Teachers should use this ballot to give themselves some breathing space for the next few years and to give Quinn the kick in the the arse that he is long overdue. At least it might make us feel a little happier.
Word of warning .... Tui and Asti better be on the same side this time. Id be happier if I knew the Tui result before I voted. Too many times weve been out on a limb being undermined by the tui.

The ASTI represents teachers of JC and LC courses who are union members in all voluntary secondary schools and some in community and comprehensive secondary schools. Therefore, the ASTI doesn't need the TUI that much.

teacherhead

endakenny wrote: »

The ASTI represents teachers of JC and LC courses who are union members in all voluntary secondary schools and some in community and comprehensive secondary schools. Therefore, the ASTI doesn't need the TUI that much.

Thats rubbish. Both unions need to be together on this. End of story.

endakenny

teacherhead wrote: »

Thats rubbish. Both unions need to be together on this. End of story.

The fact that the ASTI represents the vast majority of teachers of JC and LC courses who have union membership means that action by the ASTI alone is enough to make the JCSA unworkable.

TUI members in vocational, community and comprehensive schools constitute a minority of the membership of the TUI.

spurious

endakenny wrote: »

The fact that the ASTI represents the vast majority of teachers of JC and LC courses who have union membership means that action by the ASTI alone is enough to make the JCSA unworkable.

TUI members in vocational, community and comprehensive schools constitute a minority of the membership of the TUI.

The part I have put in bold is simply not true. Where do you get this stuff?

What makes you think third level TUI would vote on this? I never voted on any third level issues during my time in TUI, nor was I offered the opportunity to.

This will not be allowed get into a union bashing thread (either union), especially since the only outcome of that would be to divide teachers.

endakenny

spurious wrote: »

The part I have put in bold is simply not true. Where do you get this stuff?

What makes you think third level TUI would vote on this? I never voted on any third level issues during my time in TUI, nor was I offered the opportunity to.

This will not be allowed get into a union bashing thread (either union), especially since the only outcome of that would be to divide teachers.

My point is that the fact that the TUI represents a small minority of teachers of JC and LC courses means that there is no reason to the believe that how the TUI votes has any impact on the ASTI. I notice that you didn't disagree with the first sentence of the post to which you replied.

doc_17

It is only second level teachers and those who teach JC classes that are going to be balloted by the TUI.

I'll be giving it my support. Time to stop Quinn in his tracks.

worseforwear

endakenny wrote: »

My point is that the fact that the TUI represents a small minority of teachers of JC and LC courses means that there is no reason to the believe that how the TUI votes has any impact on the ASTI. I notice that you didn't disagree with the first sentence of the post to which you replied.

Your point is wrong.
Of course if the 2 unions are together on this it strengthens the teachers argument. One group of teachers attending inservice and implementing the programme while the other doesn't will only give the minister get out clause of playing one against the other. The argument will be protrayed as a particular union's problem rather than an educational issue. We also know from past experience that at local level this division between schools is exploited for public relations reasons. I dont remember the unions being on the same side of industrial action anytime in the last 15 years so I'm a it wary this time round.
My view is either both unions are on the same side on this or forget about it.

Theequalizer67

Lunchtime protest - what a farce of a union.

Peter Flynt

Theequalizer67 wrote: »

Lunchtime protest - what a farce of a union.

Where are you getting that from?

Moody_mona

I just received an email about the lunchtime protest. I don't even know how that would work.

km79

Moody_mona wrote: »

I just received an email about the lunchtime protest. I don't even know how that would work.

From union ?

Moody_mona

Yes, ASTI.

acequion

I got no email from ASTI What is this about?

MacGyver007

Indeed. A lunchtime protest pencilled in for Tuesday, March 11. What will they think of next....? Seems that the media campaign to let parents know of the changes has fallen by the wayside.... :rolleyes:

When we rolled over to get our bellies tickled on HRA, we handed in the heavy artillery for a pop-gun. We are going to look like such fools.

km79

Lunchtime eh.......I have supervision that day seriously what a joke. I did not want to leave union in case there was a major industrial action campaign on new JC. I need not have worried .......

Peter Flynt

Lunchtime protest? . . Sweet Jebus - No wonder I left the ASTI.

It's actually a good thing as it shows how weak, useless and ineffective the teaching unions are.

HRA21

km79 wrote: »

Lunchtime eh.......I have supervision that day seriously what a joke. I did not want to leave union in case there was a major industrial action campaign on new JC. I need not have worried .......

Sounds more like 1st of april event to me.
This can't be right

vamos!

What's a lunchtime protest? Do we actually eat our lunch and refuse to answer the door and phone? What do people on supervision do? Do we bitch about how bad the new JC will be? Quite confusing.

Peter Flynt

Would someone like to copy and paste the email they received from the ASTI on this thread?

Theequalizer67

Colleague,

Please see copy of letter to ASTI School Stewards for your information.



Re: Ballot on Industrial Action

Lunch Time Protest Tues 11 March

Dear School Steward,

In October 2012 the Minister for Education and Skills launched a “Framework for Junior Cycle” and announced the proposed abolition of the Junior Certificate.

It signalled a radical departure from the advice of the NCCA in relation to certification and assessment arrangements. The response from teachers was immediate and virtually unanimous; they had not been consulted on these arrangements which would profoundly change teaching and learning at Junior Cycle.

ASTI engaged in intensive consultation with members. The responses on behalf of over 10,000 ASTI members were compiled in the form of the highly

respected publication “Teachers’ Voice”. This publication and decisions taken at the 2013 ASTI Annual Convention guided the ASTI in its representations

to the Minister and his Officials. ASTI has used every consultation opportunity to voice the views of ASTI members.

Neither the views and concerns of ASTI members nor those of our colleagues in the TUI have been adequately addressed in responses from the

Department or the Minister. The ASTI’s efforts to have the voice of the teachers, the practitioners, listened to has been met with a response from the

Minister which asks us to ‘become constructive’ in our approach. We support curricular reform but not these proposals.

The new Junior Cycle programme commences for 1st year English classes in September 2014. All teachers will be affected in the following years.

We have asked the Minister to defer the change for English in order to give time for real consultation, comprehensive CPD, the provision of resources

and agreement on a credible system of assessment that guarantees objectivity and equity of standards between schools.

The 185 member Central Executive Council (CEC) of the ASTI discussed these matters on January 18th and February 8th.

CEC decided to ballot members on industrial action.

Ballot papers will be issued to all ASTI members (except Emeritus members) in early March. Members will be asked to vote on industrial action

which will ban co-operation with the following Junior Cycle Framework Activities:

School based Assessment

CPD
Planning
Short Courses
Standardised Testing
All teachers will be affected. We are asking ASTI members to unite in their opposition to changes that we as professionals have no faith in.

You can do this through the following:

Vote YES in our ballot in favour of non-co-operation with the Junior Cycle changes
Give 100% support to our lunch time protest on 11 March (details to follow)
Join the 9,000 who have already signed the ASTI petition against the JC changes
Full information on all these matters will be issued to members over the coming days. See www.asti.ie for latest information.

Regards,



Pat King

General Secretary

ASTI

Peter Flynt

Many thanks, The equaliser67, for that above:

A number of points here:

1 - The line stating that the views of the unions have not "been adequately addressed in responses from the
Department or the Minister" is continuous proof, if proof were needed, that the unions are just being told to put up or shut up. The reality is that the likes of King and MacGabhann have done absolutely nothing to protect the pay and conditions of their members over the past 6 years . . . .So getting the JCSA through will be no problem.

2 - The lunchtime protest seems a bit weird. What exactly is this? Are the ASTI proposing not to do supervision or something?. . . Proposing that their members go hungry and don't eat their lunches?. . . Proposing that their members who are paying 1769 per year for their lunch . . now not do so for this event? It has all the hallmarks of something a bit embarrassing.

3 - Why is there no apparent plan to involve parents and students through their representatives?

4 - King calls for a YES in his email - but would he be too upset with a NO. What happens if there are two "YES" ballots? . . . Do the ASTI keep balloting until there's a NO to industrial action this time?

jimbo28

Peter, you, like I, are no longer in the union.Are you not just upsetting yourself by constantly having a go at how bad they are? Thousands of teachers are still in both unions and this will continue to be.As a few union heads around here are fond of saying,"The union is what the members make it" Fair play to them, they think they are going to lead the change in jc reform, its a pity that they don't realize that they are just being herded through a few gates before being driven into the final pen and the gate closed behind them! I just cant distinguish between the Shepard Quinn and the sheepdog King, ................Leave them at it Peter and enjoy your week off lad;)

acequion

Brilliantly written jimbo28! The kind of vivid metaphors I keep trying to get my 6th English to use!

But please don't tell this lunchtime protest joke is the industrial action? I'm weary from the whole thing and blocking it out a bit this week so haven't read up.So,does a yes vote mean other,more potent forms of industrial action? I certainly hope so!

ytareh

Gone myself too since the infamous sell out but bemused by the concept of a lunchtime protest...Anyone know what it entails?Mini hunger strike?Placards outside local sandwich bar?Whatever it is ,its bound to be only marginally less of an insult to our intelligence than the JC 'petition' .

puca13

We will be standing outside our classrooms at 1.10 pm with signs "Careful now, mind how you go"!!! If this is our industrial action, then it's a joke.

km79

Just a note on leaving the union.....it takes 6 weeks . during that time your sub continues to be deducted as the dept won't stop it until the union contact them! Whats that all about? Its a deduction from my wages. I should be able to stop it whenever I choose! They do say it will be reimbursed but that's not the point.

evolving_doors

Lunch Time protests!!! there's a village short of an idiot somewhere. I might as well be shaking a fist out the window of my car all the way home from work.

Peter Flynt

Armelodie wrote: »

Lunch Time protests!!! there's a village short of an idiot somewhere. I might as well be shaking a fist out the window of my car all the way home from work.

Is there a precedent for a lunch time protest in Ireland before?

A lunch time protest cannot involve anything substantial other than directing ASTI members not to participate in supervision.

Sure that's pointless - Schools will carry on as normal after the lunch time.

Surely the whole point of industrial action is to at least cause some form of disturbance so that at least you'll be noticed?

Moody_mona

Peter Flynt wrote: »

Is there a precedent for a lunch time protest in Ireland before?

A lunch time protest cannot involve anything substantial other than directing ASTI members not to participate in supervision.

Sure that's pointless - Schools will carry on as normal after the lunch time.

Surely the whole point of industrial action is to at least cause some form of disturbance so that at least you'll be noticed?

Excuse my naivety but is that literally all it is? Not supervising? Because I don't supervise anyway on a Tuesday lunchtime so as far as I'm concerned nothing is happening?

losullivan

This lunch time protest idea is nuts and will have zero impact. A national day of protest including parents may be worth consideration. The ASTI and TUI need to get the truth about these so-called reforms out into the public domain. This is not a battle for teachers alone,the destruction and dumbing down of our education system will have far-reaching consequences for all our citizens.

evolving_doors

losullivan wrote: »

This lunch time protest idea is nuts and will have zero impact. A national day of protest including parents may be worth consideration. The ASTI and TUI need to get the truth about these so-called reforms out into the public domain. This is not a battle for teachers alone,the destruction and dumbing down of our education system will have far-reaching consequences for all our citizens.

Too true, I think the unions are suggesting that its not in teachers interests to disrupt anyone but themselves. For fear of losing public support! What a joke that ship has well and truly sailed.

So now I have to miss my lunch ! Surely thats against union rules, who do I go to about this?...oh wait...

ethical

School days are bad enough now without having to give up lunch......I'd rather do supervision!!!!!................Another ballot.another waste of money......you just watch there will be an increase in Union contributions soon as with all the ballots we've had recently the money in the kitty is dwindling at an alarming rate...............we should vote 'no' to another ballot!!!!

Terri26

If you are on supervision you do not do the lunchtime protest. Although the idea is a bit twee I think it's an ok idea. It's just to get media attention and will not impact students. Perhaps it will get parents/public to ask questions why we are doing this.
Not all action needs to be full force to get a reaction. I personally believe if we do it, it needs to be more than once. The majority of teachers standing outside their school in lab coats etc will get people talking and hopefully promote our concerns regarding the JCSA

Peter Flynt

Terri26 wrote: »

The majority of teachers standing outside their school in lab coats etc will get people talking and hopefully promote our concerns regarding the JCSA

Sweet Jesus. . . I cannot think of anything which would be more cringeworthy or embarrassing.

Thank God I left the ASTI and don't have to participate in this.

losullivan

Terri26 wrote: »

If you are on supervision you do not do the lunchtime protest. Although the idea is a bit twee I think it's an ok idea. It's just to get media attention and will not impact students. Perhaps it will get parents/public to ask questions why we are doing this.
Not all action needs to be full force to get a reaction. I personally believe if we do it, it needs to be more than once. The majority of teachers standing outside their school in lab coats etc will get people talking and hopefully promote our concerns regarding the JCSA

A small group of teachers protesting for approximately 40 mins won't make a blind bit of difference to anyone other than the actual teachers missing out on their break. Our school isn't even on a main road so who's going to take notice? Parents won't be near the premises until 4pm. I also can't imagine too many teachers volunteering to give up their badly needed lunch break in my school as we have CP hours scheduled for that evening.
There has to be a more effective way of communicating our concerns with the general public.We could start by inviting parents to branch meetings to discuss the issues involved and by putting pressure on our leadership to engage in some effective PR for a change. I notice that the people in the ASTI Fightback group have produced an excellent document on the JC. I would advise everyone to read and distribute it.

endakenny

It's possible that the lunchtime protest will involve some ASTI members securing cover for their classes for that day so that they can protest at lunchtime outside Leinster House.

losullivan

I seriously doubt it. They would have to apply for personal leave,you can't just take time off and get your colleagues to cover. Also the additional rota commitments would make something like this nearly impossible.

vamos!

losullivan wrote: »

A small group of teachers protesting for approximately 40 mins won't make a blind bit of difference to anyone other than the actual teachers missing out on their break. Our school isn't even on a main road so who's going to take notice? Parents won't be near the premises until 4pm. I also can't imagine too many teachers volunteering to give up their badly needed lunch break in my school as we have CP hours scheduled for that evening.
There has to be a more effective way of communicating our concerns with the general public.We could start by inviting parents to branch meetings to discuss the issues involved and by putting pressure on our leadership to engage in some effective PR for a change. I notice that the people in the ASTI Fightback group have produced an excellent document on the JC. I would advise everyone to read and distribute it.

So basically we are just giving up our break to go and stand in the cold. I have 10 classes on a Tuesday and CP hours that evening. I would give up my break if I thought it would achieve something but I can't see how this will work. Maybe we can protest on Saturday and Sunday and run a bit of supervised study while we're there!

endakenny

losullivan wrote: »

I seriously doubt it. They would have to apply for personal leave,you can't just take time off and get your colleagues to cover. Also the additional rota commitments would make something like this nearly impossible.

If colleagues who don't have class at the times when you have class on that day are willing to cover for you on the understanding that you'll do the same for them in the future or that they have done it for you in the past then whether or not you'd be able to go would be at the discretion of the principal. If you have secured cover without it costing anything financially then why would the principal refuse to let you go?

I vaguely remember that all the ICTU member unions sent members to a protest in Dublin about the Irish Ferries case. Therefore, there is a precedent for some teachers taking a day off for a protest without having schools closed.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2005/1128/70203-irishferries/

evolving_doors

endakenny wrote: »

If colleagues who don't have class at the times when you have class on that day are willing to cover for you on the understanding that you'll do the same for them in the future or that they have done it for you in the past then whether or not you'd be able to go would be at the discretion of the principal. If you have secured cover without it costing anything financially then why would the principal refuse to let you go?

I vaguely remember that all the ICTU member unions sent members to a protest in Dublin about the Irish Ferries case. Therefore, there is a precedent for some teachers taking a day off for a protest without having schools closed.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2005/1128/70203-irishferries/

The headline is in your last comment..
"Teachers take a day off to protest"
And following from this inside in the analysis part it will state that because we are getting our mates to cover for us we will still be getting paid...
Next think there will be reports of queues of teachers heading to the copper face jacks...

A protest without the threat of disruption is a damp squib in the desert.

losullivan

In our school we have to apply to the board of management for personal leave and give several weeks' notice. No bom or principal would be under any obligation to allow staff off work to engage in a protest. It's extremely difficult to get cover for personal leave now in most schools as many timetables are full with additional S&S slots. Anyway, the email sent by Pat King makes no reference to a protest outside Leinster House.

Peter Flynt

losullivan wrote: »

No bom or principal would be under any obligation to allow staff off work to engage in a protest.

A legal directive issued by a union means that the views of BOM/Principal are irrelevant.

As long as the union give one weeks notice there's nothing the BOM/Principal can do about it.

losullivan

I was referring to personal leave as that's what was suggested. It will be interesting to see what directives are issued after the ballot. My understanding is that strike will not be included as part of our industrial action.

Peter Flynt

Quinn's response to the March 11 lunchtime protests:

“I am asking the unions to come to the table with concrete proposals to address the concerns they say they have over the new JCSA. Despite repeated requests from officials to do exactly that, the unions have so far not engaged constructively,” said Minister Quinn.

“It is now time for them to move beyond expressions of frustration and calls of protest to using the forums which have been especially created to address their concerns.”

“I have listened to their concerns. I have changed the pace of the roll-out of the new JCSA and increased the training available to schools and teachers. I acknowledge that there are outstanding issues around resources and assessment, but the Working Group is the right forum to address this – not protest groups outside the school gates.”

“This lunchtime action is premature, particularly given the unions have signalled their intention to ballot on industrial action relating to the JCSA,” said Minister Quinn.

“Given the unions continued resistance to reforming the junior cycle, it seems clear to me that they are intent on keeping a high stakes exam system for our 15 year olds, which places unacceptable pressures on young people and their families.”

“We don’t need such a pressurised exam system. Thankfully young people are not leaving school at 15. We don’t want them to. Rather we want to capture all the talents and abilities of our young people over the first three years of second level education and the new JCSA will do that,” Minister Quinn concluded.
- See more at: http://www.education.ie/en/Press-Events/Press-Releases/2014-Press-Releases/PR2014-02-21.html#sthash.kkeiB1h8.dpuf

derb12

Did anybody else get the millward brown survey by email from the ASTI?
Just completed it there - questions about changes in workload and readiness for JCSA.