Help needed please, just purchased car

tw0nk

Hi All,

My wife purchased a 04 MB E-220 cdi from a main Mercedes dealership in Waterford city. Since the car is 04, the garage owner said he would not give warranty but would give us 48 hours to get it checked over by an independent mechanic to see if there were any problems.

We thought this was a bit odd, but since it was a main MB dealership we figured he was just confident in the car and was willing to let us get it tested. So we paid our money, got a receipt and collected the car. We brought it the next day to a trusted indie mechanic and he found 4 problems with it, some minor (horn not working etc) and one bigger problem, an oil leak which he could not find the source of without removing some parts, he told us to bring it back to the garage instead of him being blamed from breaking something etc.

So we rang inside the 48hr window, informed him of the problems, he said his mechanics were all gone home so he would ring us back tomorrow. He rang back and said the issues were only minor (including oil leak from unknown origin) and said he would fix it if we paid for the labour.

I am pretty annoyed at him asking to pay for the labour on a car we bought 2 days ago, what are your opinions on what I should do? I am thinking if he doesnt pay for labour to fix the car then I would like a full refund and he can have the car back.

thanks in advance.

keith_d99

Walk away - Demand a full refund

The Dagda

He sounds like a chancer.
Demand a refund.
You are protected under the Sale of Goods and Supply of Services Act, 1980.

Supergurrier

You are entitled to a refund.

Dont get strung along.

No Pants

tw0nk wrote: »

the garage owner said he would not give warranty

Unfortunately for him, he doesn't have a choice. Bring the car back and get them to sort it. Don't pay anything more.

tw0nk

thanks guys, so do I have a legal right to get my money back including our initial deposit? (we have car 3 days now)

Do you think I should get the money back anyway even if he does offer to fix it for free?

thanks again.

No Pants

tw0nk wrote: »

thanks guys, so do I have a legal right to get my money back including our initial deposit? (we have car 3 days now)

Do you think I should get the money back anyway even if he does offer to fix it for free?

thanks again.

I don't think so, but I'm open to correction. I think it's repair first, then replace or refund. So you can give him the opportunity to repair it once and if it's not fixed permanently, then you can ask for one of the other two.

PLUG71

Sounds like a crap dealership to not give some sort of warranty on a car they are selling!

I wouldnt buy a car from a dealer unless it had one for a minimum of three months.

Not sure if they have to give some sort of warranty?

I just would not have done the deal with them.

Demand a full refund if they try charging you for anything at all!!

bardcom

Did he mention how much the labour might be for such minor fixes? Don't ask if he didn't.

The fact that he sold it to you and gave you 48hrs to check the car out is important. What exactly did he promise? A refund? Change of mind? Exchange?

bardcom

Did he mention how much the labour might be for such minor fixes? Don't ask if he didn't.

The fact that he sold it to you and gave you 48hrs to check the car out is important. What exactly did he promise? A refund? Change of mind? Exchange?

tw0nk

He said he would refund us if it was within the 48 hour window, he is dragging us along now, the more I talk to him the more I think he is trying to con me, I honestly cant believe this from a main MB dealer. If I have problems getting refund, is there any higher up MB place I can contact? Mercedes Ireland or something?

The Dagda

tw0nk wrote: »

He said he would refund us if it was within the 48 hour window, he is dragging us along now, the more I talk to him the more I think he is trying to con me, I honestly cant believe this from a main MB dealer. If I have problems getting refund, is there any higher up MB place I can contact? Mercedes Ireland or something?

You need to speak to the Dealer Principle, the boss of the garage. If he doesn't play ball, engage your solicitor.

SleeperService

PLUG71 wrote: »

Sounds like a crap dealership to not give some sort of warranty on a car they are selling!

I wouldnt buy a car from a dealer unless it had one for a minimum of three months.

Not sure if they have to give some sort of warranty?

I just would not have done the deal with them.

Demand a full refund if they try charging you for anything at all!!

"sold as seen" (well almost in this case)
Loads of dealers at it now. They are keeping some cars that would have been automatically auctioned off to smaller guys and donedeal traders before.

biko

I'd give dealer the opportunity to rectify the issue for free.
To sell you a car with issues and then have the balls to charge to fix them is some neck.
This is why it's good to have the car checked before handing dosh over, now he's not interested any more.

Cee-Jay-Cee

Bring the car back, hand him the keys and demand a full refund including deposit. No more telephone calls or emails. Don't accept his offer to fix it or have his mechanics look at the car, take your money and leave.

Email Mercedes head office and inform them of the shoddy service one of their dealers is offering.

The Dagda

SleeperService wrote: »

"sold as seen" (well almost in this case)
Loads of dealers at it now. They are keeping some cars that would have been automatically auctioned off to smaller guys and donedeal traders before.

Even if the dealer says "sold as seen", you still have rights.

If the item turns out to be faulty, you have the right to return it to the shop where you bought it and ask for a replacement, a repair or a refund.

http://www.consumerhelp.ie/second-hand

The car is faulty, demand a refund.

tw0nk

thanks all, he is due to ring me back at lunch, I rang him but he is with customer, if he doesnt offer to fix it for free, I will drive down tomorrow with the car and insist on a refund.

alexlyons

OP as this probably isn't going to be solved instantly, then I'd suggest not driving it at all just so the dealer can't blame anything on you at all.

colm_mcm

I'd be driving down there now, making a scene until I got my refund.

Gumbo

tw0nk wrote: »

thanks all, he is due to ring me back at lunch, I rang him but he is with customer, if he doesnt offer to fix it for free, I will drive down tomorrow with the car and insist on a refund.

No good tomorrow!
You need to go to a solicitor now and get a solicitirs letter outlining your rights. It should cost less than €50.

Park the car blocking the main entrance to the dealership if you have to!

The Dagda

tw0nk wrote: »

thanks all, he is due to ring me back at lunch, I rang him but he is with customer, if he doesnt offer to fix it for free, I will drive down tomorrow with the car and insist on a refund.

The "he'll call you back" is a delaying tactic.

The longer you delay the easier it is for the guy to blame something else on the fault.

Drop the car back immediately, leave it with them, and tell them you'll be back later for a bank draft.

SleeperService

Yeah, If I was to drive it at all it would only be back to the dealer.

Edit, thanks dagda for info that I should have added. "sold as seen" from a business is not the same as from a private seller, even though they might like it to be.
Even an actual warranty isn't worth much from somesome cowboys unless you are willing to keep at them till you get satisfaction...

mullingar

@ OP,

As the sale HAS been made, the seller has the choice of 3 options, repair, replace or refund with NO additional cost to you, but its the sellers choice!

You as the buyer are fully protected under the Sale of Goods Act. Under the Act, you are automatically entitled to a "reasonable" warranty, but it does not state what "reasonable" is, but the normal industry standard would be around 3 months.

The Act also states that items "sold as seen" does NOT apply to members of the public buying from a dealer. The only exception to sales of faulty cars if you are aware of exactly whats wrong with the car and you then buy it with that known fault, not the other way around of finding out after you bought it.

renofan

colm_mcm wrote: »

I'd be driving down there now, making a scene until I got my refund.

The Dagda wrote: »

The "he'll call you back" is a delaying tactic.

The longer you delay the easier it is for the guy to blame something else on the fault.

Drop the car back immediately, leave it with them, and tell them you'll be back later for a bank draft.

Do this NOW. Not tomorrow. Today. And make a scene if you have to. You have been very badly treated.

BMJD

That is shocking carry on from a main dealer, you'd expect that kind of rubbish from the dodgy dealers on the Naas Road not from a supposedly prestige brand. As others have said DEMAND a refund now, no messing around. He will be with a customer or in a meeting for the next 10 years if you don't put your foot down now.

Henry Ford III

mullingar wrote: »

@ OP,

As the sale HAS been made, the seller has the choice of 3 options, repair, replace or refund with NO additional cost to you, but its the sellers choice!

You as the buyer are fully protected under the Sale of Goods Act. Under the Act, you are automatically entitled to a "reasonable" warranty, but it does not state what "reasonable" is, but the normal industry standard would be around 3 months.

The Act also states that items "sold as seen" does NOT apply to members of the public buying from a dealer. The only exception to sales of faulty cars if you are aware of exactly whats wrong with the car and you then buy it with that known fault, not the other way around of finding out after you bought it.

How many times do we have to go through this?

There is no automatic warranty under SOGA - that 3 months is something you've made up.

tw0nk

Hi all, just wanted to follow up, so we got through to him and we said we wanted it fixed for free or a full refund. He has bow agreed to fix it for free next week (parts and work)

Obviously I'm disappointed in that it wasn't fixed when we got it but relieved that our indie found it immediately and that it's getting resolved now.

Moneymaker

Keep us posted and I would still inform Mercedes how you have been treated.

That dealer should be fired. Disgraceful behavior.

No Pants

Henry Ford III wrote: »

There is no automatic warranty under SOGA - that 3 months is something you've made up.

Is that correct, in which case you have more consumer protection for a toaster purchase than you have for a car?

Yakuza

I would (unless buying brand new) always have a car checked out *before* buying it. A small percentage of the car's value is a good investment to avoid a lemon.

colm_mcm

No Pants wrote: »

Is that correct, in which case you have more consumer protection for a toaster purchase than you have for a car?

New or second hand toaster?

leitrim1

tw0nk wrote: »

Hi all, just wanted to follow up, so we got through to him and we said we wanted it fixed for free or a full refund. He has bow agreed to fix it for free next week (parts and work)

Obviously I'm disappointed in that it wasn't fixed when we got it but relieved that our indie found it immediately and that it's getting resolved now.

Well at least you got a good result. If you bought private it might not have been as good.

The Dagda

tw0nk wrote: »

Hi all, just wanted to follow up, so we got through to him and we said we wanted it fixed for free or a full refund. He has bow agreed to fix it for free next week (parts and work)

Obviously I'm disappointed in that it wasn't fixed when we got it but relieved that our indie found it immediately and that it's getting resolved now.

If I was you I'd get the indie to go through it again and give the dealer a full list of any and all issues or niggles when you drop it in.

The fact that he tried to sell it without any warranty would have me worried. There could be other problems on the horizon, so you need to protect yourself.

Get it checked again after the dealer does the work too. Good luck.

mullingar

Henry Ford III wrote: »

How many times do we have to go through this?

There is no automatic warranty under SOGA - that 3 months is something you've made up.

Yes we have discussed this before and I didn't say that there was an automatic 3 month warranty. Every car that I have seen for sale from a dealer in the last good few years usually has a minimum of 3 months warranty and many a time if the car is fairly fresh a 6 month warranty could be offered.

Bottom line is that the SOGA, which is statutory legislation, runs in parallel with any direct warranty that may/may not be offered by the dealer.

The SOGA is very clear on the fact that every item sold to the public, including second hand cars, must be in reasonable condition and be fit for purpose and should be expected to last for a reasonable duration.

unkel

tw0nk wrote: »

My wife purchased a 04 MB E-220 cdi from a main Mercedes dealership

That itself is highly unusual. Selling such an old car as a main dealer. My first guess is that he just got it in as a trade-in and it was about to be offloaded to "the trade", "sold as seen", until you came along showing interest

He seems to be playing ball now anyway. Keep at him until you are completely satisfied the car is without issues. Should he stop playing ball, mention the small claims court to him. It will rule in your favour* and he'll find that out if he doesn't know it already

*based on the SOGA act and your expectation that if you buy a car from a reputable main dealer, that it works and won't fail or develop a major fault within a few days (as explained by Mullingar)

homingbird

Name & Shame !!!!!

unkel

homingbird wrote: »

Name & Shame !!!!!

Hope you don't aspire to become a Garda Detective?

Hint: how many main Mercedes-Benz dealerships are there in Waterford City?

mathepac

SleeperService wrote: »

"sold as seen" (well almost in this case)
Loads of dealers at it now. They are keeping some cars that would have been automatically auctioned off to smaller guys and donedeal traders before.

They can sell as seen to the trade or if the car is sold to the public for parts. The Sale of Goods and Supply of Services Act 1980 applies otherwise as I've said many times before.

Sue the scumbag, drag MB Ireland into it, get interviewed on the local radio, sic the lawyers on his ass, do anything legal that wouldn't jeopardise a court-case or get you sued.

AltAccount

tw0nk wrote: »

Hi all, just wanted to follow up, so we got through to him and we said we wanted it fixed for free or a full refund. He has bow agreed to fix it for free next week (parts and work)

Obviously I'm disappointed in that it wasn't fixed when we got it but relieved that our indie found it immediately and that it's getting resolved now.

He's sure adamant to get rid of that car!

If I were you I'd hand it back.

mathepac

mullingar wrote: »

Yes we have discussed this before and I didn't say that there was an automatic 3 month warranty. Every car that I have seen for sale from a dealer in the last good few years usually has a minimum of 3 months warranty and many a time if the car is fairly fresh a 6 month warranty could be offered.

Bottom line is that the SOGA, which is statutory legislation, runs in parallel with any direct warranty that may/may not be offered by the dealer.

The SOGA is very clear on the fact that every item sold to the public, including second hand cars, must be in reasonable condition and be fit for purpose and should be expected to last for a reasonable duration.

All utter rubbish in point of fact.

Any warranty offered to a consumer is in addition to the consumer's rights in law, it does not parallel anything,

The Sale of Goods and Supply of Services Act states, in summary, that any item, new or second-hand, offered by a business for sale to a consumer must be:

• as described (in ads, websites, brochures or by a salesman)
• of merchantable quality (fit for sale)
• fit for purpose (if it's sold as a car, it must work as a car)

Timescales vary by product type, but certainly if I bought a '04 E 220 from a main MB dealer, I'd expect 3 or maybe 4 years motoring from what a reasonable person perceives to be a premium product.

No Pants

colm_mcm wrote: »

New or second hand toaster?

What rights would I have if I bought a second hand toaster from DID Electric?

leitrim1

If I was the garage I would give you back your money and sell it to the trade. I say it would wourk out much cheaper in the long run. After all it's only a 2004 car.

cletus

No Pants wrote: »

What rights would I have if I bought a second hand toaster from DID Electric?

do DID (or any electrics store) sell second hand anything? It seems that second hand cars fall into a very specific catagory

JohnBoy26

cletus wrote: »

do DID (or any electrics store) sell second hand anything? It seems that second hand cars fall into a very specific catagory

Some stores do sell second hand items, well technically second hand(end of line display models) for which you will usually get the same guarantee as a new item.

This is obviously a different kettle of fish to true(well used) second hand items though.

No Pants

Sitec wrote: »

Sounds like a complete cowboy. I'd raise the issue with Mercedes-Benz Ireland, a franchised dealer selling a premium brand should not be telling a customer "you've 48 hours to have it inspected, but not by us".

And be very clear that it was a used MB that you bought, not another brand.

mullingar

mathepac wrote: »

All utter rubbish in point of fact.

Any warranty offered to a consumer is in addition to the consumer's rights in law, it does not parallel anything,

The Sale of Goods and Supply of Services Act states, in summary, that any item, new or second-hand, offered by a business for sale to a consumer must be:

• as described (in ads, websites, brochures or by a salesman)
• of merchantable quality (fit for sale)
• fit for purpose (if it's sold as a car, it must work as a car)

Timescales vary by product type, but certainly if I bought a '04 E 220 from a main MB dealer, I'd expect 3 or maybe 4 years motoring from what a reasonable person perceives to be a premium product.

I stand by my use of the word "parallel".

How else would you describe these two levels of consumer protection, ie dealer warranty plus the SOGA statutory legislation as these run concurrently from the time of the sale and cannot be put together - akin to having x2 insurance policies.

There are many times that a dealer warranty will always far superior to the SOGA, and I would like to think this is 95%+ of all dealer sales. For example, it could be a term of sale that the car will pass its next NCT, but without that clause, the SOGA might not extend to it. My interpretation of the Act is what can be reasonably expected from the goods you bought. Knowing that quite a lot of parts will fail due to age/wear/tear, for example, would I really expect a 10 year old cars shock absorbers/suspension bushings that failed its NCT to be covered? No, only with a dealer warranty.

I know it will be argued that it should or shouldn't, but that just my interpretation.

The only protection I would expect from the SOGA, is on sudden non-wear/tear component failures on parts that are "normally" expected to last the life of the car, eg engine/gearbox/ECU's etc. These should last for a reasonable time after I purchase it. I wouldn't expect the SOGA to cover a ECU failure on a 10 year old car that was sold 7-8 months after sale, this would not be reasonable, it would be reasonable if it failed just 7-8 weeks after the sale.

And I completely agree with the second half of your post (on mobile site at the time)

The only thing I'd add, if its sold with a specific fault (eg oil leak) with the buyer aware, then the SOGA does not apply to this one fault as it was as described.

djimi

JohnBoy26 wrote: »

Some stores do sell second hand items, well technically second hand(end of line display models) for which you will usually get the same guarantee as a new item.

This is obviously a different kettle of fish to true(well used) second hand items though.

End of line isnt second hand in fairness.

JohnBoy26

djimi wrote: »

End of line isnt second hand in fairness.

A display item is, technically speaking any way. Eg would you consider new a display model TV which is on every day in the store?

djimi

JohnBoy26 wrote: »

A display item is, technically speaking any way. Eg would you consider new a display model TV which is on every day in the store?

Display model isnt really second hand either. The box has been opened, and in some cases the item might have been turned (ie a display TV), but the item has never left the store and the retailer can stand over it in the same way as they can anything that has been sold unopened.

JohnBoy26

djimi wrote: »

Display model isnt really second hand either. The box has been opened, and in some cases the item might have been turned (ie a display TV), but the item has never left the store and the retailer can stand over it in the same way as they can anything that has been sold unopened.

Weather it's left the store or not, If the box is opened and the item has been turned on and used day in day out it's a second hand item. You will get the same guarantee as a brand new item though, that was my original point.

SamAK

Sounds a bit like the treatment my mother received after buying an 04' Focus C-Max.

<snip>

Not really sure about rules regarding naming and shaming slime-ball traders but I honestly don't give a damn!