Do you resent being inspected by the inspectorate of the DES?

Peter Flynt

Ireland has one of the most comprehensive system for inspecting teachers anywhere in the world (as opposed to Finland who have no teacher or school inspectors).

Inspections are becoming so routine for each teacher that they are now, in some ways, losing their potency as teachers, weary with an ever increasing workload and less and less pay, are seemingly becoming ambivalent to the whole process.

I open this thread as I am due to be inspected shortly - and, quite frankly, as time goes on I'm beginning to have more and more contempt for the process.

Most inspectors have absolutely no idea of the pressures [both inside and outside school] that teachers face as a result of the "reform" (that is cuts) to their wage and terms and conditions of employment.

All 120 or so inspectors have been appointed pre-2008 and some have not taught in a classroom for over ten years. . . they are literally claiming "experience" from a by-gone era. Their "experience" is nothing more than a memory - it's that long they've taught.

There also appears to be quite a hypocrisy from the inspectorate - seeking teacher self-evaluation forms whilst conveniently forgetting that there appears to be no evaluation forms from inspector to teacher [One group of inspectors told my entire staff three years ago that a confidential online system would be setup for teachers. . . which, of course, has never happened]

So what are your opinions and experiences?

RealJohn

To be honest, I'm fine with it. I don't care if they want to inspect me as long as the inspector doesn't disrupt my teaching. We had a WSE two years ago (I think) and I decided more or less straight away that I'd be doing nothing different for the inspector. Whatever class they inspected would be taught as normal with nothing special or different for the occasion and that's what I did.

Now I'll grant you, I have the luxury of permanency so I knew the inspector was no threat to me but to be honest, that's the way it should be. If you're good at your job, who cares who's watching? Obviously you could have a bad day which might reflect badly on you but if that happens, so what? Learn from it and be better next time. Just don't put yourself under undue pressure.

There are lots of things I resent about how I'm treated by the various authorities but inspections are a long way from the top of the list.

ahahah

Now I'll grant you, I have the luxury of permanency so I knew the inspector was no threat to me but to be honest, that's the way it should be.



Come on..what's the point of an inspector then? They are there to inspect teachers and there are plenty of permanent ones who are not good enough.:eek::eek:

RealJohn

ahahah wrote: »

Now I'll grant you, I have the luxury of permanency so I knew the inspector was no threat to me but to be honest, that's the way it should be.



Come on..what's the point of an inspector then? They are there to inspect teachers and there are plenty of permanent ones who are not good enough.:eek::eek:

What I meant is that a teacher shouldn't feel threatened by an inspection and went on to qualify that by saying that if you're good at your job you have nothing to fear. By leaving that next part out you've very much quoted me out of context.

seavill

I agree with others. If you are doing your job properly you have nothing to worry about. They will always find something wrong, or something to say at the end of it regardless of how good or bad you were. Your name is not attached to any inspection published. Locals may know, or if you are the only teacher there in a subject it will be obvious but if you move schools it won't follow you.

In reality if you are doing your schemes, have good control of your class and are making a good attempt to engage your class, then you cover all bases.
If you have no plans, no resources and just chalk and talk for every class then there may be an issue from the inspectors point of view but whatever way you do it if you are getting results your principal will be happy and so will the kids and parents.

Some inspectors are very nice people and have a lot of cop on. Some not so, but you could say the same about your classroom. I know one inspector that believes they should all have to go back into the class for a few years every now and then because like you said they know themselves they are removed to a certain extent.

acequion

RealJohn,I wouldn't bother defending myself to the teacher bashers. These people's attitude is so predictably one sided,it doesn't even dignify an answer.

I think some of the posters replying to this thread are slightly missing the point. The question the op asked is not if inspections worry us,rather if we resent them. Most unfortunately,in the top down business model currently being applied in Irish education,the modus operandi is indeed to worry and frighten teachers with frequent heavy handed inspections.Somebody up there is deciding how and what we teach and the purpose of the inspections is to ensure that we're doing exactly as we're told.

Do I resent it? Absolutely! Don't get me wrong. I'm all for transparency and realise that occasional inspections are necessary to ensure that the curriculum is being properly delivered by competent teachers. I would have no problem whatsoever with the odd drive by visit from an open minded and realistic inspector. What I resent, is the excessive frequency of these inspections,the narrow mindedness and downright incompetency of some of the inspectors, and the false window dressing that goes on for WSE's and notified subject inspections.In the case of the latter nothing of any value is achieved,loads of time is wasted and the most important aspect of our job is neglected while the circus is in town, ie our students.

I have been inspected twice in the last three years and escaped a drive by last year because I was out at the orals. The first was a subject inspection by an inspector who has also been giving talks in schools around the country on school self evaluation, and who has been thoroughly criticised by many,including posters here, for poor presentation and communication skills.This is who I was inspected by! Enough said!

Two years ago we had a WSE and my other subject was on the list to be inspected.The inspector was downright arrogant,took many of us to task because we weren't dotting t's and crossing i's exactly as the DES wanted.Needless to say this inspector was very much resented by teachers and more interestingly by pupils.Teenagers certainly don't suffer fools and are hugely intuitive.

Last year we had a drive by,which I don't have a problem with in theory,but I resent the patronising idea of a feedback session afterwards.

I pretty much learned my craft on the ground,with real kids, in real classrooms,with many real hours of study and research.If I feel I need to upskill in any way,I will do it. I basically don't need these guys telling me how I should be doing the job I've been doing very successfully for the past 20 years.

The Fins realise that good teaching is not about box ticking,that it's very much a talent honed by spontaneity and creativity. They trust their teachers to do an excellent job and Finish teachers do just that. The Irish, on the other hand are all about what looks good on paper,while all the while cultivating a climate of fear and mistrust.

seavill

acequion wrote: »

Last year we had a drive by,which I don't have a problem with in theory,but I resent the patronising idea of a feedback session afterwards.

I pretty much learned my craft on the ground,with real kids, in real classrooms,with many real hours of study and research.If I feel I need to upskill in any way,I will do it. I basically don't need these guys telling me how I should be doing the job I've been doing very successfully for the past 20 years.

.

OK maybe it wasn't made clear but I certainly didn't miss the point. No I don't resent the inspections because of what I set out above.

can I ask if you don't see a problem with the drive bys what would the point in them be if there was no form of feedback afterwards, are they not just pointless otherwise.

Maybe you have been doing your job successfully for 20 years but others have not and are still doing it the same way. We all know of our colleagues that are not up to it. Maybe not in every school but in all the ones ive been in so far there has been one or two. Even if you have been doing it successfully for 20 years a new idea here and there isn't necessarily a bad thing surely.

There has been inspections in my school but I have not been inspected in 7 years out of college. A previous school of mine had its first subject inspection EVER in my subject area this year. We have had a MILL and a review of it also, along with subject inspections. Again my school has never had a drive by (I will probably be hit with one Monday morning we come back now just for saying that:))

losullivan

I resent the box ticking exercise employed by many inspectors. I have been inspected as part of a WSE, a 'drive by' incidental and a subject inspection. I actually found the incidental inspection the least stressful as the inspector was only interested in the teaching and learning that took place in the classroom,no interest in mind numbing paperwork. The feedback was very positive and realistic.I still feel that teachers should be given more notice of these inspections as a mark of basic courtesy.
The subject inspection was farcical. A huge emphasis was placed on paperwork and ticking the right boxes with fancy buzz words.I found the weeks leading up to the inspection to be stressful and resented the show we were forced to put on. The inspector interrogated/interviewed students during my lesson and some of the kids later commented on her rudeness and disrespect. The feedback was laughable...I was told that I had 'ticked the numeracy box' as I had written the date on the white board! This individual was completely out of touch with the realities of teaching in a typical over crowded classroom.I believe that all inspectors should have to go back into the classroom themselves for at least one year every 6/7 years.

acequion

seavill wrote: »

OK maybe it wasn't made clear but I certainly didn't miss the point. No I don't resent the inspections because of what I set out above.

can I ask if you don't see a problem with the drive bys what would the point in them be if there was no form of feedback afterwards, are they not just pointless otherwise.

Maybe you have been doing your job successfully for 20 years but others have not and are still doing it the same way. We all know of our colleagues that are not up to it. Maybe not in every school but in all the ones ive been in so far there has been one or two. Even if you have been doing it successfully for 20 years a new idea here and there isn't necessarily a bad thing surely.

There has been inspections in my school but I have not been inspected in 7 years out of college. A previous school of mine had its first subject inspection EVER in my subject area this year. We have had a MILL and a review of it also, along with subject inspections. Again my school has never had a drive by (I will probably be hit with one Monday morning we come back now just for saying that:))

Yes,totally see your point seavill. I was just giving my opinion from my perspective as an experienced teacher,but of course I'm always open to constructive suggestions and new ideas. Nobody should ever think they've got it all totally sussed,things are always changing anyway. And you're right that an inspection would be pointless without feedback. However as long as it's not patronising and tunnel visioned. My own experience with inspectors, so far, leaves me very much less than impressed with their own credentials to be passing comment on teachers much better and more clued in than they are.

I can also see where a good inspector could be very helpful to young teachers learning the ropes. I suppose the fact that myself and teachers of my vintage had to learn the ropes ourselves, makes us intolerant of these officious box tickers.

Overall though,I feel that with funds being so scarce, a big saving could be made if they cut down on all the inspections.I would actually cut out the subject inspections and keep the WSE's [once every ten years is plenty] and occasional drive bys. The drive by appears to be the least stressful for the teacher and the most authentic of all the inspections.

Pwpane

acequion wrote: »

Most unfortunately,in the top down business model currently being applied in Irish education,the modus operandi is indeed to worry and frighten teachers with frequent heavy handed inspections.Somebody up there is deciding how and what we teach and the purpose of the inspections is to ensure that we're doing exactly as we're told.

This is why I do, indeed, resent the inspections.

Bananatop

I think it depends on the inspector. I was lucky to have been inspected by a practical, down to earth inspector last year. He gave me constructive criticism which I took on board. His advice was far more valuable than box-ticking 'advice' on how to do DES friendly short/long term plans which I never, ever refer to once I have them done.

I am a much more effective teacher when I jot down what I'm going to do/have done. I'm not as stressed because I don't follow the unwieldy short/long term templates prescribed by the DES. As a result, my students pick up on my enjoyment of the job I do, and they're far more eager to learn. There is a side to me that believes however that the DES want a production line style of education, the reason being that the public clamour for figures/numbers with regards to student progress etc, and production line education lends itself very well to spouting figures.

Very unfortunate in my opinion. Box ticking leads to stressed/apathetic teachers, which in turn leads to students who have no interest in learning and a feeling of general malaise overall. But the band plays on, because nobody wants the responsibility of shouting 'STOP'.

byhookorbycrook

We will have a WSE shortly, doesn't bother me, to be honest.I am teaching for many years and keep abreast with developments and try to use the best ideas/strategies. I'm doing my best and if there is a better way, then I'd like to know what I should be doing. Otherwise, meh, don't let the door hit you on the way out, inspector.

Delphi91

In relation to the OP's question, I have no problem with being inspected. If I'm doing a good job, then the odd bit of affirmation doesn't go astray . If I'm making a balls of it, then constructive criticism is always welcome too.

I've gotten some feedback from other Principals and DPs lately in relation to their experience of recent inspections - it would appear that Assessment for Learning (AFL) is high on the list of things the inspectors are looking for evidence of. One principal was saying that his teachers were a bit miffed at the draft report. One of his teachers, who was doing an excellent job (demand for their class always exceeded supply), got excellent results each year, etc, etc yet they were picked up on the lack of AFL in their classes. I'm not saying this is right or wrong, I'm just saying that it is high of the Inspectorate's agenda at the moment. So for all of you out there who are expecting inspections, it's one of the things that they will be looking for.

In relation to the box-ticking, I guess they have to have some sort of metric to compare schools with. Certainly when we were subjected to a WSE about 7 years ago, all the questions asked by the inspectors were the questions featured in the "Looking at Our School" booklet produced by the DES. Our recent DEIS inspection didn't seem to have the same structure, although it did focus on the pillars of DEIS. Given the vastly different types of schools, school populations, socio-economic background of pupils, parental involvement, etc, etc there would have to be some sort of commonality in the areas examined in each school if any sort of comparison were to be made. Yes, it's not ideal by any means, but is there any other way of doing it??

doc_17

Last time I was inspected was in the dip 10 years ago. What I would resent though is being inspected by say, an English teacher when I'm teaching a Maths class. What do I know about teaching English? What do they know about teaching maths? That's how you know it's a box ticking exercise at times.

"Oh you wrote the learning outcome on the board! You're a model teacher." What a pile of rubbish it can be at times.

acequion

Delphi91 wrote: »

I've gotten some feedback from other Principals and DPs lately in relation to their experience of recent inspections - it would appear that Assessment for Learning (AFL) is high on the list of things the inspectors are looking for evidence of. One principal was saying that his teachers were a bit miffed at the draft report. One of his teachers, who was doing an excellent job (demand for their class always exceeded supply), got excellent results each year, etc, etc yet they were picked up on the lack of AFL in their classes. I'm not saying this is right or wrong, I'm just saying that it is high of the Inspectorate's agenda at the moment. So for all of you out there who are expecting inspections, it's one of the things that they will be looking for.

This AFL malarky infuriates the hell out of me! Isn't that the three stars and a wish codology? That is a typical example of the powers that be deciding exactly how we dot the i's and dare we deviate! The story above typifies why inspectors are so often resented. An excellent teacher taken to task because he wasn't doing things their way! As far as I'm concerned, giving feedback to students is an individual thing and the how is not important,so long as the feedback is given and the student learns.

AFL is one of a number of buzz words being bandied about and everyone is expected to scuttle off and make sure they're doing it. I,personally,have no intention of using something just to keep the inspector happy.

byhookorbycrook

We do AFL all the time, as teachers, but some inspectors seem to think we should slavishly follow the English system of ticking boxes very time a child picks up a pencil or opens their mouths. We need to be left teach, not drowned in pointless paperwork. Of course I need my notes/plans /reviews, but ones that help me teach, not ones to please an inspector who may not have taught a class in 10 years.

endakenny

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

We do AFL all the time, as teachers, but some inspectors seem to think we should slavishly follow the English system of ticking boxes very time a child picks up a pencil or opens their mouths. We need to be left teach, not drowned in pointless paperwork. Of course I need my notes/plans /reviews, but ones that help me teach, not ones to please an inspector who may not have taught a class in 10 years.

Can you give examples of the questions that you are asked in AFL that you answer by ticking boxes?

What form of redress is there for teachers who believe that inspectors are subjecting them to harassment?

byhookorbycrook

Harassment?? Ticking boxes refers to the English system where kids have to marked as reaching targets/objectives in minute detail.

worseforwear

I've no problem with the inspectors themselves, any I have dealt with I have found to be very helpful with either their criticism or affirmation. I do have some issues with the inspection process however. Inspection reports are too general. Some subject departments suffer a poor report because some individual performs very poorly and tarnishes their colleagues expert work. Sometimes the inspection will identify or highlight where there may or may not be a problem of an under-performing staff member, but it can't supply any support in resolving that problem. I understand why posters find the inspectorate frustrating in how it champions a certain model for a period and, suddenly changes direction when there is a new fad in town. Like everything else in life it's not all good and not all bad. I also think that the standard of education in Ireland would be worse overall without the Inspectorate. As much as we dislike the notion, we are a branch of public service, and like other public services we need a watchdog. Would anybody have more confidence in the health system, without HIQA?

Peter Flynt

worseforwear wrote: »

I also think that the standard of education in Ireland would be worse overall without the Inspectorate. As much as we dislike the notion, we are a branch of public service, and like other public services we need a watchdog. Would anybody have more confidence in the health system, without HIQA?

It's a fair point. . . However there's no inspection system in Finland.

I find it very interesting that in a time of never-ending austerity that there appears to be money for 120 or so inspectors whilst some children are losing their SNAs, class sizes are rising and teachers are doing more with less.

The same cannot be said for the inspectorate.

HRA21

Peter Flynt wrote: »

It's a fair point. . . However there's no inspection system in Finland.

I find it very interesting that in a time of never-ending austerity that there appears to be money for 120 or so inspectors whilst some children are losing their SNAs, class sizes are rising and teachers are doing more with less.

The same cannot be said for the inspectorate.

Yes I agree.
Can't see why they have avoided the knife. I would think that their workload has increased a fair bit in the last couple of years with Sse and drive by etc. Their expectations of what schools could and should provide in the last few years is something that certainly should have been trimmed in line with the cuts in resources. Schools are still being criticised for not providing a full guidance programme when everybody knows that schools are on their knees.

Peter Flynt

HRA21 wrote: »

Yes I agree.
Can't see why they have avoided the knife. I would think that their workload has increased a fair bit in the last couple of years with Sse and drive by etc. Their expectations of what schools could and should provide in the last few years is something that certainly should have been trimmed in line with the cuts in resources. Schools are still being criticised for not providing a full guidance programme when everybody knows that schools are on their knees.

To what extent are inspectors in touch with reality?

Teachers are providing 88 extra hours per year (one month) unpaid on top of an ever increasing array of cuts and demands.

NONE of the inspectors have any experience in dealing with such a scenario.

They don't obtain credibility by hearing about what goes on.

Earlier this year my school had a Special Needs Inspection. The inspector demanded why each special needs teacher did not have an individual lesson plan for each individual child requiring special needs (not each individual class. . but each child)

She didn't really want to know when it became apparent that this would have meant about 4000 lesson plans per year for one particular teacher. She was also asked if she had such individual plans when she was a teacher . . . to which she claimed she did (over ten years ago) - a claim no one believed.

Such Inspectors discredit the inspectorate.

acequion

Very much agree with the last three posts. I would also say that before this rather recent increase in the number and type of inspection,the education system was certainly no less effective.

Whatever about the minority that under perform,a good teacher is self motivated and works well anyway. The omnipresent watchdog has little effect on that

endakenny

Peter Flynt wrote: »

It's a fair point. . . However there's no inspection system in Finland.

I find it very interesting that in a time of never-ending austerity that there appears to be money for 120 or so inspectors whilst some children are losing their SNAs, class sizes are rising and teachers are doing more with less.

The same cannot be said for the inspectorate.

I haven't come across anything that suggests that vacancies left by the retirements of school inspectors are exempt from the recruitment moratorium.

Peter Flynt

endakenny wrote: »

I haven't come across anything that suggests that vacancies left by the retirements of school inspectors are exempt from the recruitment moratorium.

There are 120 inspectors NOW. . .I haven't come across anything that suggests that their workload has increased over the past 6 years or so.

None have experience of what it is like to be a teacher in Ireland post-austerity : that was the point

byhookorbycrook

Individual education plans (IEPs) we're snuck in as part of Epsen . We have never been resourced to do them and they are not legally required yet the DES continue to demand them .

In primary there is a move by the DES to remove inspectors from inspecting students for the dip, not sure about secondary

Peter Flynt

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Individual education plans (IEPs) we're snuck in as part of Epsen . We have never been resourced to do them and they are not legally required yet the DES continue to demand them .

In primary there is a move by the DES to remove inspectors from inspecting students for the dip, not sure about secondary

Removing Inspectors from inspecting students from the DIP?. . . I thought that was the case already. DIP students have their own college inspectors.

derb12

I think we should be provided with a forum for assessing the inspectors. I've had two brilliant inspectors over the past 10 years who gave me very useful feedback and suggestions that I would not have thought of myself. It can be very useful to get input from a different perspective.
However, I've also experienced the opposite - as part of whole-school rather than subject inspections - where the inspector just made everyone uncomfortable and criticised niggly stupid things like not having the date on the board. Not to mention the SSE expert who bored the pants off the entire staffroom for more than two hours, taking over one of our much needed staff meetings with her poorly prepped presentation. That was an absolute disgrace - 50+ people ... 100+ wasted hours. As far as I know our principal didn't complain but he should have.
I'd like to be able to give positive or negative feedback so that the inspectors who have got something genuinely useful to contribute to the profession get the recognition they deserve and those who don't get shuffled on to something else - perhaps the DES mailroom.

byhookorbycrook

Peter Flynt wrote: »

Removing Inspectors from inspecting students from the DIP?. . . I thought that was the case already. DIP students have their own college inspectors.

Sorry, it's different for secondary of course, but in primary there is a move towards principals having to act as dip inspector for primary NQTs. A real disaster in the making.

gammy_knees

Peter Flynt wrote: »

To what extent are inspectors in touch with reality?

Teachers are providing 88 extra hours per year (one month) unpaid on top of an ever increasing array of cuts and demands.

NONE of the inspectors have any experience in dealing with such a scenario.

They don't obtain credibility by hearing about what goes on.

Earlier this year my school had a Special Needs Inspection. The inspector demanded why each special needs teacher did not have an individual lesson plan for each individual child requiring special needs (not each individual class. . but each child)

She didn't really want to know when it became apparent that this would have meant about 4000 lesson plans per year for one particular teacher. She was also asked if she had such individual plans when she was a teacher . . . to which she claimed she did (over ten years ago) - a claim no one believed.

Such Inspectors discredit the inspectorate.

There is no way anyone would believe that claim but the obvious question was: Is that the reason why you left teaching to become an inspector?

endakenny

derb12 wrote: »

I think we should be provided with a forum for assessing the inspectors. I've had two brilliant inspectors over the past 10 years who gave me very useful feedback and suggestions that I would not have thought of myself. It can be very useful to get input from a different perspective.
However, I've also experienced the opposite - as part of whole-school rather than subject inspections - where the inspector just made everyone uncomfortable and criticised niggly stupid things like not having the date on the board. Not to mention the SSE expert who bored the pants off the entire staffroom for more than two hours, taking over one of our much needed staff meetings with her poorly prepped presentation. That was an absolute disgrace - 50+ people ... 100+ wasted hours. As far as I know our principal didn't complain but he should have.
I'd like to be able to give positive or negative feedback so that the inspectors who have got something genuinely useful to contribute to the profession get the recognition they deserve and those who don't get shuffled on to something else - perhaps the DES mailroom.

So why don't you and your colleagues in that school join forces to stand up to these inspectors? They're not going to have you and your colleagues struck off the Teaching Council register for refusing to do something insignificant such as ticking a particular set of boxes or writing the date on the board. After all, pupils and parents would be outraged if inspectors took such action. Not all parents agree with Emer O'Kelly.

I am baffled by the apparent inability of many teachers to stand up for themselves. There are laws against harassment, including in the workplace. Neither a school inspector nor anyone else is above the law.