To Baptise or not? will it effect education?

Marty McFly

Hi and thanks for taking the time to read this

Myself and the girlfriend are expecting a baby due in August and obviously Baptism has come up we both have the same views mine maybe a bit stronger.


That the we shouldn't baptise the child as neither of us are religious and don't feel the need to pass it on.

Should child choose a religion when its old enough to choose then so be it ill support it in any choice it makes.

But I'm wondering how much of an effect can it have on the child's education? Can or will some schools refuse to take an unbaptised child? Anyone with any experience in this?

sawdoubters

they will not get into a catholic school or if they do it will be really hard

irishmover

My brother and his wife just had this dilemma. As above they had to baptise otherwise school prospects would have been limited.

Peregrinus

Depends on what your aspirations for the child's education are. But if you want to send them to a Catholic school, and it's a popular school, then not being baptised is likely to move them several rungs down in the order of priority in which applicants are accepted.

Marty McFly

its crazy to think in modern Ireland this is still an issue. I know from my own secondary school there were a few non catholics in a Marist Brothers school and that would be about 12 years ago now one would think things would have progressed since then.

In terms of schools etc we haven't thought that far ahead yet, but would like to think regardless of religion one would be able to get a child into a school that we see fit.


I really don't want to Baptize the child but this education system seems to put you between a rock and a hard place in the country when it comes down to it.

endacl

Marty McFly wrote: »

I really don't want to Baptize the child

^^
This, + Educate Together.

Xenji

I went to a De La Salle primary school and secondary school and I do not remember this being an issue, but now as somebody in his mid 20's with no kids and not in anyway religious, it is something that I did not think about till seeing this thread. My question is that how does the school know the child is unbaptized, do they ask for proof, check with the church it took place in or can you just say the child was baptized ( even if it was not ) and go along with it?

Peregrinus

Xenji wrote: »

I went to a De La Salle primary school and secondary school and I do not remember this being an issue, but now as somebody in his mid 20's with no kids and not in anyway religious, it is something that I did not think about till seeing this thread. My question is that how does the school know the child is unbaptized, do they ask for proof, check with the church it took place in or can you just say the child was baptized ( even if it was not ) and go along with it?

They will mostly ask for a baptismal certificate, which can be got from the church where the child was baptised.

Not all schools ask for a cert all the time, but the more popular a school is the more rigorous they tend to be about applying their admission criteria.

smacl

endacl wrote: »

^^
This, + Educate Together.

Worked well for my two, but it depends on what is available. Cynically, if I thought it was going to be an issue that could affect my children's quality of life, I'd probably go through the silly ritual to have the cert, simply not tell the child they were baptized, and destroy the evidence once it was no longer needed. Either that or use plan B...

I find the whole grip that the Catholic church works hard to maintain a really insidious and deeply unpleasant form of discrimination, and as such would have no qualms whatsoever in terms of screwing with the system. In my view, it is totally unreasonable that any child should discriminated against on religious grounds when seeking entry to a state funded school.

Peregrinus

smacl wrote: »

Worked well for my two, but it depends on what is available. Cynically, if I thought it was going to be an issue that could affect my children's quality of life, I'd probably go through the silly ritual to have the cert, simply not tell the child they were baptized, and destroy the evidence once it was no longer needed. Either that or use plan B...

Plan B is a crime under civil law, believe it or not. Marty has my sympathy, but if he's forced to choose between different forms of dishonesty in order to protect his child's educational opportunity, his choice might be influenced by the consideration that crossing your fingers while participating in the liturgy of baptism is not a crime in Ireland, but forgery certainly is.

smacl

Peregrinus wrote: »

Plan B is a crime under civil law, believe it or not. Marty has my sympathy, but if he's forced to choose between different forms of dishonesty in order to protect his child's educational opportunity, his choice might be influenced by the consideration that crossing your fingers while participating in the liturgy of baptism is not a crime in Ireland, but forgery certainly is.

Agreed, and for the sake of a wasted day on a sham ceremony, having real meaningless baptismal certificate is doubtless preferable to having a fake meaningless baptismal certificate.

Interesting you'd advocate crossing the fingers. Deep down superstition still trumps faith in Ireland, as it always has.

Peregrinus

smacl wrote: »

Interesting you'd advocate crossing the fingers. Deep down superstition still trumps faith in Ireland, as it always has.

I spoke metaphorically. For the record, I wouldn't advocate Marty adopting either course (not least becuse he will disadvantage those non-believers who refuse to baptise their children, and say so) but it's his call, not mine, and if he were to take either course I would understand why.

Cabaal

sawdoubters wrote: »

they will not get into a catholic school or if they do it will be really hard

This is pretty misleading,

Not all catholic ethos schools heavily enforce the whole "if your not catholic you go to the end of the list or you won't get in" stuff, it can very much depend on the school and how many kids are in the area.

Schools should be viewed on a case by case basis, the best way for the op to know about their local school is to contact them about it.

One example to this is the local primary schools to where I live, currently it has a number of none-Catholics, when I went school in it also had non Catholics.

I happened to talk to one of my parents lastnight about this very subject and my mother said when she went to school there 50 odd years ago it also had some non-Catholics (protestant), this was despite the fact it was run by catholic nuns back then.

smacl

Peregrinus wrote: »

I wouldn't advocate Marty adopting either course (not least becuse he will disadvantage those non-believers who refuse to baptise their children, and say so)

No more or less than the good God fearing Catholics that perpetuate this nonsense in the first instance. Personally, I'd always advocate pragmatism that offers the most advantageous result in a situation where the odds were unfairly stacked against me.

lazygal

Cabaal wrote: »

This is pretty misleading,

Not all catholic ethos schools heavily enforce the whole "if your not catholic you go to the end of the list or you won't get in" stuff, it can very much depend on the school and how many kids are in the area.

Schools should be viewed on a case by case basis, the best way for the op to know about their local school is to contact them about it

Agree with this. Every school sets its own policy. So the only way to know whether you'll need to baptise is to ask them. Our local Catholic school prioritises siblings, children of teachers and those living close to the school before asking for baptismal certs and everyone we know who lives in our area got a place last year, baptised or not. It also depends on demand in an area. In some parts of Dublin demand for certain schools far outstrips supply. The other factor is whether the school is fee paying, I know of people who didn't baptise but had no problems enrolling their children in fee paying Catholic or Protestant fee paying primary or secondary schools. And finally, you'll want to check out whether the school is a feeder for particular secondary schools, the ET we plan on sending ours to is a feeder school for our preferred secondary school so we got the names down ASAP.

eviltwin

As others have said it really does depend on the area and the schools. In the area I live in the Catholic schools are actually crying out for pupils and will take anyone, other schools are very strict though, some have other criteria such as siblings, kids in the catchement area etc so even with a bapthism you might not have much of a chance of a place.

If you really are thinking along the lines of ET then get onto their website and sign yourself up for emails so you can be informed of any new schools in your area and get your baby's name down. And don't be put off by long lists in ET schools, my son was number 268 for a class of 60 when we put his name down but we still got a place for him.

ravendude

Our local (catholic) school is in high demand. It has on its admission policy that it does not discriminate on religion etc wrt admission process.
Yet, it asks for a baptismal cert at the time of application!!
So, even if they say they don't discriminate, - don't believe them

pinkypinky

smacl wrote: »

Worked well for my two, but it depends on what is available. Cynically, if I thought it was going to be an issue that could affect my children's quality of life, I'd probably go through the silly ritual to have the cert, simply not tell the child they were baptized, and destroy the evidence once it was no longer needed. Either that or use plan B...

Whether you a fake cert or a real one, this plan wouldn't work because the school would then expect your child to participate in religious education, prepare for communion, etc and then you end up with a very confused kid.

lazygal

pinkypinky wrote: »

Whether you a fake cert or a real one, this plan wouldn't work because the school would then expect your child to participate in religious education, prepare for communion, etc and then you end up with a very confused kid.

Not true. We know of more than one family who opt.out of indoctrination even though children were baptised. Usually happens in first communt year when parents decide they don't want to participate.

Peregrinus

smacl wrote: »

No more or less than the good God fearing Catholics that perpetuate this nonsense in the first instance. Personally, I'd always advocate pragmatism that offers the most advantageous result in a situation where the odds were unfairly stacked against me.

Except that the child who is denied a place in order to admit Marty's child will be a child who hasn't been baptised, and whose parents say so.

Given that there's an order of priority for admitting children to the school, Marty's child isn't in competition for a place with the kids at the top of the order of priority; he's in competition with the kids at the bottom. Marty isn't getting a place for his child at the expense of a Catholic kid; his getting a place at the expense of another non-religious kid, but one whose parents are honest about not being religious.

As I say, I can understand why Marty would feel driven to do this in the interests of his child. But in the wider interest of the community of non-believers who want school places for their children, this is counterproductive, to put it no higher.

Qs

I've had to weigh this up recently as my girlfriend is due in July so I've spent a lot of time mulling it over. In the end I decided it would be more detrimental to my child to start its life out as a lie. I want to teach my kids to stand up for what they believe (or don't) and not to just take the path of least resistance because its easy.

That said I'm lucky enough to live in a town with an ET school and I'd likely have no problem getting my kid into the closest RCC school if I wanted too so maybe I'd change my mind if I lived somewhere that added a massive commute to the nearest available school.

smacl

Peregrinus wrote: »

Except that the child who is denied a place in order to admit Marty's child will be a child who hasn't been baptised, and whose parents say so.

Given that there's an order of priority for admitting children to the school, Marty's child isn't in competition for a place with the kids at the top of the order of priority; he's in competition with the kids at the bottom. Marty isn't getting a place for his child at the expense of a Catholic kid; his getting a place at the expense of another non-religious kid, but one whose parents are honest about not being religious.

Not really. Say places are limited and in high demand, and baptised kids get priority. It is quite possible that no unbaptised kids get a place and Marty's child is therefore displacing another baptised child. As for the question of honesty, I don't for believe that those who treat you unfairly deserve fair treatment themselves.

As I say, I can understand why Marty would feel driven to do this in the interests of his child. But in the wider interest of the community of non-believers who want school places for their children, this is counterproductive, to put it no higher.

I would imagine that most parents would put what they consider to be the best interests of their children before the wider interests of the community. Like many atheists, a Catholic primary school would be bottom of list of choices I'd make for my children, but if it was the only feasible option I'd do my damnedest not to get discriminated against on the basis of my lack of religious beliefs.

quickbeam

Isn't it the right of every child in the country to be educated? I don't think the local school can refuse to take your child just because they're not baptised. Now, having said that, the child mightn't get in the year you want them in - ie they might have to wait until they're 5.5 years old instead of entering at 4.5 years old.

Having said that I'd not want any child of mine (not that I have any yet) going to a Catholic school to be indoctrinated. Luckily there are plenty of ET options around where I live which would be a far superior choice for me.

** waits to be proved wrong **

lazygal

quickbeam wrote: »

Isn't it the right of every child in the country to be educated? I don't think the local school can refuse to take your child just because they're not baptised. Now, having said that, the child mightn't get in the year you want them in - ie they might have to wait until they're 5.5 years old instead of entering at 4.5 years old.

Having said that I'd not want any child of mine (not that I have any yet) going to a Catholic school to be indoctrinated. Luckily there are plenty of ET options around where I live which would be a far superior choice for me.

** waits to be proved wrong **

Each school is a private entity. No school is obliged to enrol anyone, once the school adheres to the enrollment policy and meets the criteria regarding admission. A child is entitled to a school place but nothing in law means this has to be in the closest or more preferred school. I know of plenty of families who scramble for school places and have to send children to schools further away than a local school.

Ghost Buster

Cabaal wrote: »

This is pretty misleading,

Not all catholic ethos schools heavily enforce the whole "if your not catholic you go to the end of the list or you won't get in" stuff, it can very much depend on the school and how many kids are in the area.

Schools should be viewed on a case by case basis, the best way for the op to know about their local school is to contact them about it.

One example to this is the local primary schools to where I live, currently it has a number of none-Catholics, when I went school in it also had non Catholics.

I happened to talk to one of my parents lastnight about this very subject and my mother said when she went to school there 50 odd years ago it also had some non-Catholics (protestant), this was despite the fact it was run by catholic nuns back then.

Agreed. You should really contact the school OR ask about in the area. My son attends a large rural school and his religion or lack of has never arisen. Their criteria is that they serve the area/those on the bus route first. Religion doesn't come into it. He is (Not) doing first communion this year and is being accommodated exactly as to our wishes.
Other schools are different im sure but it really isn't as black and white as many believe.

johndoc

I've been pondering this too, but it's likely to come down on the side of going through with the baptism.
My thinking is that showing up for the day and getting the cert means this admission issue goes away. We have the option of going to a school that wants the cert. But no one in our house will ever show up to your weekly party (mass), will never chip in to the collection, never tick that box on the census form that means you get funding, never take part in any of your nonsense. It's like going to the exclusive party, but blanking whoever invited you when you get there....?

lazygal

johndoc wrote: »

I've been pondering this too, but it's likely to come down on the side of going through with the baptism.
My thinking is that showing up for the day and getting the cert means this admission issue goes away. We have the option of going to a school that wants the cert. But no one in our house will ever show up to your weekly party (mass), will never chip in to the collection, never tick that box on the census form that means you get funding, never take part in any of your nonsense. It's like going to the exclusive party, but blanking whoever invited you when you get there....?

You're still adding to church numbers though, and the church uses the fact that people who baptise usually end up doing communion and confirmation to maintain the line that parents raise children Catholic and want a "Catholic" education.

endacl

On securing a place, I suppose the thorough parent might forward one of these, with an 'oops, I forgot to include this' note...?

Peregrinus

smacl wrote: »

Not really. Say places are limited and in high demand, and baptised kids get priority. It is quite possible that no unbaptised kids get a place and Marty's child is therefore displacing another baptised child. As for the question of honesty, I don't for believe that those who treat you unfairly deserve fair treatment themselves.

Assuming that the admission criteria put baptised kids above unbaptised kids, then getting your kid baptised leapfrogs him above the unbaptised kids. They are the ones who are primarily disadvantaged by your strategy.

It is of course possible, on the numbers, that in a particular school in a particular year none of the unbaptised kids would have got a place anyway. But, in general, when nonbelievers baptise their kids to secure a school place, it is the nonbelievers who don’t baptise their kids who will bear most of the cost of this, in terms of losing school places.

smacl wrote: »

I would imagine that most parents would put what they consider to be the best interests of their children before the wider interests of the community. Like many atheists, a Catholic primary school would be bottom of list of choices I'd make for my children, but if it was the only feasible option I'd do my damnedest not to get discriminated against on the basis of my lack of religious beliefs.

Absolutely. I wouldn’t criticise Marty; he’s trapped in an unjust system not of his making, and if his priority is to do the best he can for his kids in that system well, I dare say that would be mine too. My point is that while this may be the best thing for Marty and his kids, it’s not the best thing for unbelievers and their kids as a class. Apart from the particular unbeliever kids who lose school places because of this strategy, overall it conceals the number of unbeliever kids who are looking for school places, and so reduces pressure for the changes in the system which are badly needed.

Tim Robbins

ET schools still do religion unfortunately but it is not doctrinal.

endacl

Off topic...

What's ET short for?

Because he has little legs!

DublinWriter

We faced a similar dilemma ourselves, I'm Buddhist (i.e. atheist) and the missus is English and was originally baptised Protestant.

I went off the deep end in terms of whether to have our lad baptised or not.

The missus wasn't having any deep philosophical argument at all and took a purely pragmatic stance that 'this is Ireland' and we should have him christened Catholic to help him get into our local school.

She was right (of course!). Until we have totally partisan first and second level educational systems, truly provisioned by the state, then this is the system, and country, in which we find ourselves.

I sucked it down for the day. It wasn't that bad. He can recant later! (if he wants to).

lazygal

DublinWriter wrote: »

We faced a similar dilemma ourselves, I'm Buddhist (i.e. atheist) and the missus is English and was originally baptised Protestant.

I went off the deep end in terms of whether to have our lad baptised or not.

The missus wasn't having any deep philosophical argument at all and took a purely pragmatic stance that 'this is Ireland' and we should have him christened Catholic to help him get into our local school.

She was right (of course!). Until we have totally partisan first and second level educational systems, truly provisioned by the state, then this is the system, and country, in which we find ourselves.

I sucked it down for the day. It wasn't that bad. He can recant later! (if he wants to).

Your child cannot recant since the church changed the rules. All you've done is add to the church's numbers and justification for not changing the status quo.

Also, are Buddhists atheist?

Peregrinus

lazygal wrote: »

Also, are Buddhists atheist?

They can be. Buddhism does not require any belief in a deity.

kylith

I am seriously depressed over threads like this... How will my child's education be impacted if I'm not Catholic? What a question for someone to be asking in a first world country in the 21st century.

Adamantium

Wow the poignancy of reading this thread for the 1st time. My brother is just off to a christening for a child that was a teenage pregnancy.

The parents will be regular church goers; I assure you....NOT.

Marty McFly

kylith wrote: »

I am seriously depressed over threads like this... How will my child's education be impacted if I'm not Catholic? What a question for someone to be asking in a first world country in the 21st century.

Oh I agree it is completely ridiculous in this day and age in modern Ireland that people are still pressured into Christening there child so that they can receive an education that should be a birth right regardless of religious denomination.

Just an update since I haven't posted here in a bit, I have enjoyed reading the different opinions.

Herself whilst not Religious was unsure due to the education issue but has now changed her mind there will be ET schools not right beside us but not a million miles away either.

We will not be Baptizing the child and I am delighted to be honest, if my child chooses a religion when it is old enough to decide I'll support it but I will not christen it into something I have no belief in to keep family members happy or to satisfy the status quo in Ireland. Education I will make sure my child receives and education no matter what.

lazygal

Thanks for the update. Really glad to see people who have the courage to stand up and make the right decision.

mcmoustache

Fair play, OP. You've just gone and broken that vicious cycle.

mcmoustache

endacl wrote: »

Off topic...

What's ET short for?

Because he has little legs!

Here's your coat:

*hands endacl his coat*

Please leave now. You're embarrassing my guests.

(Just kidding )

Zamboni

Good decision Marty.

I know of an atheist couple who baptised a baby recently.
I just don't get it.
Plenty of ET schools around but the mother falls for the misleading concept that Catholic schools are the best.
Secular parents are in a battle for the provision of school places free from indoctrination.
When our own soldiers start waving flags for the other side it's gut wrenching.

AshOB

Zamboni wrote: »

Good decision Marty.

I know of an atheist couple who baptised a baby recently.
I just don't get it.
Plenty of ET schools around but the mother falls for the misleading concept that Catholic schools are the best.
Secular parents are in a battle for the provision of school places free from indoctrination.
When our own soldiers start waving flags for the other side it's gut wrenching.

In a strange way I think it is almost easier for Atheists to baptise their kids. If you consider the bs that you are agreeing to in a baptism it is much easier to go along with the whole thing if you don't believe any of it. Kinda just doing it with your fingers crossed.
Also it's so ingrained culturally, and that is a very difficult cycle to break.

lazygal

AshOB wrote: »

In a strange way I think it is almost easier for Atheists to baptise their kids. If you consider the bs that you are agreeing to in a baptism it is much easier to go along with the whole thing if you don't believe any of it. Kinda just doing it with your fingers crossed.
Also it's so ingrained culturally, and that is a very difficult cycle to break.

It is adding to the church numbers. The church don't care about the motivation behind a baptism, only that they get the numbers and normalize a ceremony involving magic water and rejecting Satan for a baby. The more atheists who give into this the longer it takes to change anything.

byhookorbycrook

No one type of school is better, so one cannot say "Catholic" or "ET" or "Gaelscoileanna" are all good/bad. Our school is Catholic but being baptized does not feature on our policy. (We are vastly oversubscribed ,by the way, so it's not that we just want to get" numbers" into the school.)

Tim Robbins

I don't think it is such a big deal if you live in Dublin if you don't baptise your kids. There are ET school everywhere.

In fact, they are one of the only good things about this country.

I couldn't stand the idea of my kid getting two hours of catholic teaching a week. It is not just the baptism that is involved, it is the preparing of communion, first confession and every piece of crap that comes from the Catholic Church.

A mate of mine, who is an academic said he was so interested in education and valued it so much that he was prepared to do the baptism thing to get his kid into a good school. This makes no sense to me as religion indoctrination is the complete opposite of education and critical thinking.

I don't value the education system here at all. There are some schools that have good reputations etc but these are usually because they are good for making contacts in no because they excel at science or Java. Real education comes from going to library, reading a broad range, travelling and learning for yourself. So much of the Irish education system is utter crap. It is regurgitation, a memory test.

But whatever floats your boat.

Hotblack Desiato

Tim Robbins wrote: »

I don't think it is such a big deal if you live in Dublin if you don't baptise your kids. There are ET school everywhere.

I don't know where people get this idea. It's not remotely true.

robindch

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

No one type of school is better, so one cannot say "Catholic" or "ET" or "Gaelscoileanna" are all good/bad.

But one can say that pretending that controversial lies true, and doing so to impressionable children, is bad. And it wastes school time that could be devoted to things like education.

iguana

Tim Robbins wrote: »

I don't think it is such a big deal if you live in Dublin if you don't baptise your kids. There are ET school everywhere.

I agree with most of the rest of your post but this isn't true ime. There are lots and lots of ET schools in Dublin but they are way oversubscribed and getting a place in one tends to be like winning the lottery. I know someone who's child recently got a place in the NDSP and they were shocked as there are 20+ applicants for each place. I think the only people who can feel in any way confident of getting an ET place are those in smaller urban centres where there is only a mid-sized population competing for places in 1 or 2 local schools.

Then of course you have the problem that if your child does get an ET place, they aren't getting the same 'local school' experience most of us did. There is a good chance that they will have to commute to the school, rather than be in reasonable walking distance. And even if they are lucky enough to live close to their school, their school friends probably don't. They won't get to experience walking home together from school or spontaneous after school play with their classmates. While at the same time the other kids in the neighbourhood all attend the local Catholic school and our kids will be left out of the camaraderie that comes with the shared experience of being classmates.

Tim Robbins

ninja900 wrote: »

I don't know where people get this idea. It's not remotely true.

Really? Move over to DNS. There are plenty.

Tim Robbins

iguana wrote: »

I agree with most of the rest of your post but this isn't true ime. There are lots and lots of ET schools in Dublin but they are way oversubscribed and getting a place in one tends to be like winning the lottery.

When our first kid was born we put his name down for every ET school in Dublin. Got a place in nearly every single one. Relinquished all but one with 12 months notice.

When kids number two was born (July) he was number 4 on the list.

I live in North County Dublin. Come join the party

lazygal

Tim Robbins wrote: »

When our first kid was born we put his name down for every ET school in Dublin. Got a place in nearly every single one. Relinquished all but one with 12 months notice.

When kids number two was born (July) he was number 4 on the list.

I live in North County Dublin. Come join the party

I'm in north county Dublin and this is not the case for anyone I know with children in et or other schools.