Deposits - Discuss! (Mod Note in post 40)

dinnyirwin

Im a landlord and though I use an agent now for all of my properties the things that would impress me at the moment are.

- Have your references (job and 2 or more previous landlords) with you.
- Have bank statements with you.
- Have a cheque ready and write in the first months rent plus 2 months deposit. (dont write in the amount til you hand it over or you might be wasting a cheque).
- Look respectable. Its not as easy as people think for a scumbag to look respectable. They just wont go to the effort. There are exceptions of course but in general.
- Arrive early. If the landlord does happen to be there early he might want to be in and out before everyone else is to turn up if he likes you and you want to take the property. He wants to avoid the scrum viewing too if at all possible.
- Ask questions, but dont start asking for things that the landlord may not want to provide. Like oh, that microwave is a year old, we would like a new one before we take it.
- If its furnished dont start asking the landlord to take away his own furniture = more hassle for him.


If you are a couple make sure you have references and statements for both people.

Some people dont like the idea of paying 2 months deposit but I can tell you it impresses landlords. Sets you out from the crowd.
As a matter of fact I have instructed my agent to ask for two months deposit for any let now. And I see it going to 3 months as standard in the not too distant future. It just gives the landlord that little bit more protection in case the tenant is a scumbag. And generally scumbags wont hand over 2 or 3 months deposit plus a month in advance.

Putting off bringing references, deposit etc just puts you behind anyone that has the ability to deal on the spot.
Having all those things allows the landlord to make a deal and then he can check them out in the morning. Instead of waiting around the next day for a whole heap of them.

murphaph

Agree with Dinny...deposits moving to 2 months as standard in the short term in Dublin and longer term to 3. The key thing he mentioned that will swing it is a recent healthy bank statement.

dinnyirwin

dubbie82 wrote: »

Moved back to Dublin just over a year ago and the place was crowded with people. Estate Agent told me he had between 50-60 applications.

I had everything ready, references from previous Landlord and work, ID, Bank details, Deposit and one months rent, etc. Rang Estate Agent first thing the next morning (viewing was the evening before) and I got the place simply because I matched all the requirements.

Fast forward one year, received letter of notication and rent went up by 25%, it's though but I won't get anyhing cheaper and i makes me mad because not one sinlge thing was updated. For example there were cracked tiles in the kitchen and bathroom when I moved in and they were supposed to be fixed but nothing was done, same goes for another list of small jobs. So I am looking to move as well but not much out there that is cheaper at this state and the competition is fierce.

The people in the flat next door to mine moved after the rent increase came because they could not afford it so Landlord put ad up on daft and the new tenants actually pay 925 euro for a one bedroom flat that in january 2013 was leased out for 600 euro.

As for dinnyiriwin, there is not one chance in hell I would ever going to pay 2 months deposit or even 3. I have yet to meet a landlord who does not just lodge that money into his bank account, I still have to meet a Landlord who has a inventory list prepared on moving in date which doesn't really make me trust them. I agree some tenants are taking the piss but unfortunately that works both ways.

Landlords now have a market where they can claw back some of the expenses that were handed out to them over the last few years and they could do nothing about. Thinks like NPPR, reduction of mortgage interest allowable, Social welfare deciding to play hardball, new regulations, PRTB, USC on rental income ... to name but a few. I remember the cheering that was going on that greedy landlords were getting what was coming to them. Nobody believed me that all of these expenses would have to be recouped one way or another once the market was to swing again. Landlords are running a business and all costs will be passed on as soon as the market will take it.

Anything the government takes out of landlords pockets is actually being taken out of the renters pocket in the end. People should have been careful what they were wishing for.

For your own situation though, how much deposit you are willing to put up is up to yourself, you might have a limit on how much you think is fair (which is fair enough), but to make a deal both sides need to agree. So if either you want to pay less or the landlord wants you to pay more you wont deal. No skin of either of your noses.

dubbie82

I am aware we are going a bit off topic here.

I did not always rent in Ireland, I was also renting in other countries and got the chance to see how their rental systems works and in my albeit somwhat liited experience I have never come across such a flawed market like in Ireland.
The thing no one seems to know or to care what rules and obligations come with renting and that goes for tenant and landlord. It only started to changed in the past couple of years but still to many are completely unaware.

The situation in Dublin is crazy, it feels like rents are going up bu the day and I wonder why. Sure supply and demand but are there really more people moving to dublin than back in the Celtic tiger years, when people leave in hordes for australia and less people immigrate to Ireland looking for work? I am actually looking out the window across the road and there is a large office and apartment block and a good number of those flats are not occupied and not on the market and this is in a area that is considered high demand.

The question with the 2 deposits is: Why? Sure that money is not supposed to be touched by the landlord anyway. If you say you want 2 months rent upfront that is a different and understandable, but why 2 deposits.

dinnyirwin

dubbie82 wrote: »

I am aware we are going a bit off topic here.

I did not always rent in Ireland, I was also renting in other countries and got the chance to see how their rental systems works and in my albeit somwhat liited experience I have never come across such a flawed market like in Ireland.
The thing no one seems to know or to care what rules and obligations come with renting and that goes for tenant and landlord. It only started to changed in the past couple of years but still to many are completely unaware.

The situation in Dublin is crazy, it feels like rents are going up bu the day and I wonder why. Sure supply and demand but are there really more people moving to dublin than back in the Celtic tiger years, when people leave in hordes for australia and less people immigrate to Ireland looking for work? I am actually looking out the window across the road and there is a large office and apartment block and a good number of those flats are not occupied and not on the market and this is in a area that is considered high demand.

The question with the 2 deposits is: Why? Sure that money is not supposed to be touched by the landlord anyway. If you say you want 2 months rent upfront that is a different and understandable, but why 2 deposits.

Its just one deposit, but equals 2 to 3 months of the rent.
Its because the current laws are weighted so much in favour of the tenant that the landlord needs additional protection. An increased deposit also means the tenant is willing to invest more themselves and would be seen as a better risk than one who can only come up with one month.

I showed an apartment once when I was young and stupid. The guy and his girlfriend seemed very nice and gave me a sob story that would break your heart. I kept the apartment for them for two weeks when I could have let it to numerous people during that time. The day they moved in they were supposed to hand over the deposit and first months rent and along came another sob story and they would have to give me the deposit next month. Within 6 months they were 2 months behind on rent and no deposit.
Hard lesson learned.

Now I will ask for a months rent and 2 months deposit, eventually probably 3 months deposit. I dont care if its held in escrow by some WELL RUN AND FAIR agency, but I want the tenant invested more than they already are. At the first hint of the rent not arriving on the due date, eviction proceedings (ive only had to do this twice) will be initiated, and no sob stories will be entertained. One bitten .... . The extra deposit should help protect me against some of the risk here.

One months deposit simply isnt enough anymore.
It wont be long before landlords are asking the tenants to pay the PRTB fee as an extra "administration" charge too.
People should stop supporting the government screwing landlords with extra taxes and charges, as at the end of the day it is the tenants who will end up paying for it.

stateofflux

i would never ever give more than 1 months deposit especially with the current amount of landlord deposit retentions

dubbie82

stateofflux wrote: »

i would never ever give more than 1 months deposit especially with the current amount of landlord deposit retentions

I agree with that statement, still to many Cowboy Landlords out there. Lost one months deposit a couple of years ago, Landlord still awol, lots of his "business buddies" waiting for money too. Me too was once young and stupid :-)

Its just one deposit, but equals 2 to 3 months of the rent.
Its because the current laws are weighted so much in favour of the tenant that the landlord needs additional protection. An increased deposit also means the tenant is willing to invest more themselves and would be seen as a better risk than one who can only come up with one month.

Also agree with this sentiment, still to many cowboy tenants out there.
Done a bit of work for another landlord showing apartments, getting flats ready for rent. Advertised on daft and got e-mails requesting a call back as "i have no credit on the phone". Some could not provide deposit, refused to give ID etc so I assume paying rent wasn't a possibility for them.

But still do you as a landlord provide housing that reflects that increase of investment from the tenants side? Will you get rid of your granny's furniture and replacing it with new and clean stuff, can I expect to move into a flat that is up to a decent standart and would YOU as a landlord be willing to live in the same flat and willing to pay that amount of money you are charging your tenant every month?

dinnyirwin

dubbie82 wrote: »

I agree with that statement, still to many Cowboy Landlords out there. Lost one months deposit a couple of years ago, Landlord still awol, lots of his "business buddies" waiting for money too. Me too was once young and stupid :-)

Its just one deposit, but equals 2 to 3 months of the rent.
Its because the current laws are weighted so much in favour of the tenant that the landlord needs additional protection. An increased deposit also means the tenant is willing to invest more themselves and would be seen as a better risk than one who can only come up with one month.

Also agree with this sentiment, still to many cowboy tenants out there.
Done a bit of work for another landlord showing apartments, getting flats ready for rent. Advertised on daft and got e-mails requesting a call back as "i have no credit on the phone". Some could not provide deposit, refused to give ID etc so I assume paying rent wasn't a possibility for them.

But still do you as a landlord provide housing that reflects that increase of investment from the tenants side? Will you get rid of your granny's furniture and replacing it with new and clean stuff, can I expect to move into a flat that is up to a decent standart and would YOU as a landlord be willing to live in the same flat and willing to pay that amount of money you are charging your tenant every month?

I used to keep them exactly as I would want to live in them but that soon got knocked out of me. I have furniture in my house that is exactly the same and bought at the same time as furniture in a rental and while it lasts me 10 years and still going strong, the rented version is in bits and needs replacing after 3 years. I have a good few examples of that.

Now I just leave the furniture thats there until its in a state that i cant rent the place without replacing it.

Usually once I have a tenant in place I dont put up the rent even if the market rate goes up - only as long as I dont hear any complaints from them. But if I have to spend money or time on the place then I will increase the rent up at the next opportunity (which is usually the next month since i wont have increased it for a year or more) to the market rate and recoup that expenditure and more over the next year anyway.
With rising rents there isnt an issue with them leaving. If they want to leave i'll get more rent anyway with the next tenant. And I have had negligible vacant periods too, which will probably continue.
(There were only about 3 years out of the last 15 years of renting where I had to worry about not being able to increase the rent, had to reduce it in fact.)

So its up to the tenant whether they want to buy a new mattress or shower head/hose or live with 3 rings working on the cooker, or draw my attention to the new market rate in the area. I usually go slightly higher than the market rate when I increase the rent. It really bugs me when people cant sort out simple things for themselves, which i used to do when I rented.

For example the agent called me three weeks ago saying the tenants in an apartment want a new mattress. They are in there 2.5 years and paying €700, which I was happy with (it more than covered my costs) while there wasnt a peep from them before.
So ive told the agent to arrange a new mattress and send them notice that the rent is going up to €925 as thats market rate now. And to explain to them that I was happy to leave it a €700 before but now since I have had to spend money it drew my attention to a rent review. If they stay they will make an informed decision next time. Or they might leave but i'll still have a replacement on the day they leave at €925 or higher.

I just love tenants I dont hear from. What I want is the agent to go in for the 3 monthly inspection and not even have to bother ringing me. If my life is easy, so too will theirs be.

murphaph

dinnyirwin wrote: »

It really bugs me when people cant sort out simple things for themselves, which i used to do when I rented.

Yeah here in Germany the rental agreement invariably includes a "small repairs clause" which offloads broken shower hoses and such like off onto the tenant (up to a max of €410 per anum is legal). In commercial letting in Ireland it's also quite normal for the tenant to be responsible for all repairs inside the property (but usually not anything to do with the fabric of the building) so I don't see why it should be different for Irish residential lettings.

ted1

dinnyirwin wrote: »

Im a landlord and though I use an agent now for all of my properties the things that would impress me at the moment are.

- Have your references (job and 2 or more previous landlords) with you.
- Have bank statements with you.
- Have a cheque ready and write in the first months rent plus 2 months deposit. (dont write in the amount til you hand it over or you might be wasting a cheque).
- Look respectable. Its not as easy as people think for a scumbag to look respectable. They just wont go to the effort. There are exceptions of course but in general.
- Arrive early. If the landlord does happen to be there early he might want to be in and out before everyone else is to turn up if he likes you and you want to take the property. He wants to avoid the scrum viewing too if at all possible.
- Ask questions, but dont start asking for things that the landlord may not want to provide. Like oh, that microwave is a year old, we would like a new one before we take it.
- If its furnished dont start asking the landlord to take away his own furniture = more hassle for him.


If you are a couple make sure you have references and statements for both people.

Some people dont like the idea of paying 2 months deposit but I can tell you it impresses landlords. Sets you out from the crowd.
As a matter of fact I have instructed my agent to ask for two months deposit for any let now. And I see it going to 3 months as standard in the not too distant future. It just gives the landlord that little bit more protection in case the tenant is a scumbag. And generally scumbags wont hand over 2 or 3 months deposit plus a month in advance.

Putting off bringing references, deposit etc just puts you behind anyone that has the ability to deal on the spot.
Having all those things allows the landlord to make a deal and then he can check them out in the morning. Instead of waiting around the next day for a whole heap of them.

2 months deposit, your having a laugh. Until there is an escrow in place with the PRTB holding it anybody who gives more than 1 month is daft.

As for bank statements, revenue would even ask for them.

I looked at a place about 5 years ago and the landlord was asking for everything you listed. The place was a kept badly and was dirty. I let rip and him and his wife and put them in the place. Rented the sane house 2 doors down that was much nicer and didn't require any if the above. Just a deposit and a conversation with the landlord and lady

ted1

dinnyirwin wrote: »

I used to keep them exactly as I would want to live in them but that soon got knocked out of me. I have furniture in my house that is exactly the same and bought at the same time as furniture in a rental and while it lasts me 10 years and still going strong, the rented version is in bits and needs replacing after 3 years. I have a good few examples of that.

Now I just leave the furniture thats there until its in a state that i cant rent the place without replacing it.

Usually once I have a tenant in place I dont put up the rent even if the market rate goes up - only as long as I dont hear any complaints from them. But if I have to spend money or time on the place then I will increase the rent up at the next opportunity (which is usually the next month since i wont have increased it for a year or more) to the market rate and recoup that expenditure and more over the next year anyway.
With rising rents there isnt an issue with them leaving. If they want to leave i'll get more rent anyway with the next tenant. And I have had negligible vacant periods too, which will probably continue.
(There were only about 3 years out of the last 15 years of renting where I had to worry about not being able to increase the rent, had to reduce it in fact.)

So its up to the tenant whether they want to buy a new mattress or shower head/hose or live with 3 rings working on the cooker, or draw my attention to the new market rate in the area. I usually go slightly higher than the market rate when I increase the rent. It really bugs me when people cant sort out simple things for themselves, which i used to do when I rented.

For example the agent called me three weeks ago saying the tenants in an apartment want a new mattress. They are in there 2.5 years and paying €700, which I was happy with (it more than covered my costs) while there wasnt a peep from them before.
So ive told the agent to arrange a new mattress and send them notice that the rent is going up to €925 as thats market rate now. And to explain to them that I was happy to leave it a €700 before but now since I have had to spend money it drew my attention to a rent review. If they stay they will make an informed decision next time. Or they might leave but i'll still have a replacement on the day they leave at €925 or higher.

I just love tenants I dont hear from. What I want is the agent to go in for the 3 monthly inspection and not even have to bother ringing me. If my life is easy, so too will theirs be.

You sound like a landlord from hell. Furnishings like mattresses can be written off against incomes

homerno

ted1 wrote: »

2 months deposit, your having a laugh. Until there is an escrow in place with the PRTB holding it anybody who gives more than 1 month is daft.

As for bank statements, revenue would even ask for them.

I looked at a place about 5 years ago and the landlord was asking for everything you listed. The place was a kept badly and was dirty. I let rip and him and his wife and put them in the place. Rented the sane house 2 doors down that was much nicer and didn't require any if the above. Just a deposit and a conversation with the landlord and lady

hi ted , i have for some time been taking a months rent plus two months deposit for all rental houses, i think its becoming more popular.

lilymc

I have rented in Dublin, Cork, Kerry and Galway. All of the properties I have rented I had to give 2 months deposit, reference from work, reference from previous Landlord and proof of income. This is all very normal.


To add to your point about Dublin, the apartment I rented in Dublin in 2011 was €895. It is now up on daft for €1,150. I feel bad for those I know living there still.

Bepolite

Yanks have it spot on: first and last month's rent on day one plus a security deposit of roughly 1 month which has to be in an interest bearing account.

murphaph

Bepolite wrote: »

Yanks have it spot on: first and last month's rent on day one plus a security deposit of roughly 1 month which has to be in an interest bearing account.

That deposit is now too small in an Irish context. Just takes too long to get an over holding tenant out. 2 months will become standard soon enough, mark my words. In Dublin at any rate.

dinnyirwin

murphaph wrote: »

That deposit is now too small in an Irish context. Just takes too long to get an over holding tenant out. 2 months will become standard soon enough, mark my words. In Dublin at any rate.

The only reason its not standard at the moment is that a lot of landlords think they cant legally take more deposit for some reason. But with the situation at the moment it is very good for filtering down the amount of people at viewings.

But someone looking to set themselves out from the crowd when viewing can use this to their advantage right now.

Bepolite

murphaph wrote: »

That deposit is now too small in an Irish context. Just takes too long to get an over holding tenant out. 2 months will become standard soon enough, mark my words. In Dublin at any rate.

I suspect the majority of tenants that don't pay rent default much earlier than the end of the lease. Taking 2 months rent rather than a large deposit gives both parties security and is a nice compromise IMO. It also prevents the 'last months rent' having to be interest bearing. It's scandalous that interest bearing deposits that the LL can't touch aren't a requirement here.

In the case of a default before the end of the lease the effect is the same as having two months deposit.

Friend Computer

murphaph wrote: »

That deposit is now too small in an Irish context. Just takes too long to get an over holding tenant out. 2 months will become standard soon enough, mark my words. In Dublin at any rate.

Not until some form of escrow becomes mandatory; too much risk is involved in handing over that kind of cash to a private individual. And before we get onto the "yeah well landlords are handing over their asset", a tenant has more to lose from a couple of months deposit being held onto.

handlemaster

Friend Computer wrote: »

Not until some form of escrow becomes mandatory; too much risk is involved in handing over that kind of cash to a private individual. And before we get onto the "yeah well landlords are handing over their asset", a tenant has more to lose from a couple of months deposit being held onto.

I Dont think so. It doesn't take long for the bills to add up if a tenant refuses to pay,damages the house or steals furnishings etc. So on the whole the landlord has alot to lose.

fash

Friend Computer wrote: »

Not until some form of escrow becomes mandatory; too much risk is involved in handing over that kind of cash to a private individual. And before we get onto the "yeah well landlords are handing over their asset", a tenant has more to lose from a couple of months deposit being held onto.

Is there any risk? A tenant can simply go to the prtb.
Only risk is if landlord goes bankrupt. In which case the thing to do would be stay put, not pay rent and wait for the receiver to take a case to prtb- which would be a long long time.

stateofflux

fash wrote: »

Is there any risk? A tenant can simply go to the prtb.
Only risk is if landlord goes bankrupt. In which case the thing to do would be stay put, not pay rent and wait for the receiver to take a case to prtb- which would be a long long time.

anything involving the PRTB takes months. time that most tenants dont have when leaving one dwelling and having to pay a deposit on the next.

Friend Computer

handlemaster wrote: »

I Dont think so. It doesn't take long for the bills to add up if a tenant refuses to pay,damages the house or steals furnishings etc. So on the whole the landlord has alot to lose.

I didn't say that, I said the tenant has more to lose.

fash wrote: »

Is there any risk? A tenant can simply go to the prtb.

In the meantime they're down a couple of months deposit and quite possibly unable to move into new accommodation until they get it back.

fash

stateofflux wrote: »

anything involving the PRTB takes months. time that most tenants dont have when leaving one dwelling and having to pay a deposit on the next.

So the risk relates to time only- unlike for the landlord who may be facing a respondent whose whereabouts are unknown

stateofflux

fash wrote: »

So the risk relates to time only- unlike for the landlord who may be facing a respondent whose whereabouts are unknown

homelessness is a risk

fash

Friend Computer wrote: »

I didn't say that, I said the tenant has more to lose.



In the meantime they're down a couple of months deposit and quite possibly unable to move into new accommodation until they get it back.

An escrow system would be the same in that respect. A deposit would only be released a month at a minimum after one had left the apartment. And a similar amount of time to at present if there is a dispute (I.e. you have to go to dispute either way). Where is the tenant to get the money for that first month anyway?

dinnyirwin

fash wrote: »

An escrow system would be the same in that respect. A deposit would only be released a month at a minimum after one had left the apartment. And a similar amount of time to at present if there is a dispute (I.e. you have to go to dispute either way). Where is the tenant to get the money for that first month anyway?

And if there is an escrow system it should be set up properly.

Money should be paid in by the tenant and held against their PPS number.
There should be at least a month after both parties have signed off before that deposit is released back to the tenant. The deposit should be at least 2 to 3 months rent.

If a tenant owes a landlord more than their deposit they must pay it off before ever being allowed to use the escrow system again (using PPS number allows this to be monitored).
If they go to rent a new place and are flagged as not being able to use the escrow system the new landlord knows they are a bad bet and can just not rent the property to them.

Same applies to landlords, but since they are not holding the deposit and must apply to get money from the deposit there cant be any abuse on their side.

Landlords want a properly run system even more than tenants do.

murphaph

fash wrote: »

An escrow system would be the same in that respect. A deposit would only be released a month at a minimum after one had left the apartment. And a similar amount of time to at present if there is a dispute (I.e. you have to go to dispute either way). Where is the tenant to get the money for that first month anyway?

Yup. I'm all for a properly managed escrow system (I actually just follow the German model for my Irish tenants and put their deposits in an interest bearing savings account and give them the lot upon termination of the tenancy, but I'm not obliged to do that by any means). I use a standard Rabo direct account for my Irish tenants, which yields currently 1.45% before DIRT. For my German tenancy I must do things a little differently because I must be able to show a specific paper trail wrt deposit and interest etc. Most banks charge for this service. My bank offers it for free but pays the current statutory minimum of 0.2% interest, so my German tenant with guaranteed interest receives much less than my Irish tenants, which is sort of ironic.

If a proper escrow system comes in then it'll be a couple of weeks at best (assuming no disputes) before a tenant gets their deposit back, even in part. So, tenants will just have to have the deposit for the next place saved up and put away. To be honest I wouldn't want a tenant who couldn't save up a deposit for a place so this escrow thing would filter out some of the dead wood from my perspective, which can only be a good thing.

In Germany it's 3 months deposit but you can usually pay one month before tenancy commencement and the remaining 2 months within a set time thereafter. Something like that would be fine too.

homerno

stateofflux wrote: »

anything involving the PRTB takes months. time that most tenants dont have when leaving one dwelling and having to pay a deposit on the next.

sorry correction needed, years not months

TheDoc

I've got this weird thing when it comes to landlords and agents asking for references and bank statements and the likes.

I've previously got references and the landlords I've spoken with havn't been really interested. Personally I know I'm not interested too much in paper references, doesn't take much for someone to make something up. I'd previously just thrown relevant contact numbers into a document I print out and bring with me. By all means they are free to contact the director I report into, confirming I work for them. Likewise with previous landlords.

The last two places I looked at ( pretty sure I got done over on the sly) the representative was fine about it, I guess me the misses give of a good vibe and we are looking for somewhere to settle with the family. Nothing I was uncomfortable with and it was done in an amicable mature fashion.

In terms of bank statements, pretty wary of giving them out to be honest. My current landlord didnt ask for anything of the sort, and the two I've dealt with so far didn't mention it. I'd have an issue handing one over to be honest. I'm agreeing a price with someone, I don't want to hand them over my financials for them to raise the price at the next available opportunity, knowing I can afford it.

That post from Deny puts the fear into me of what I might have to deal with. I've had a good relationship with my landlord. I've painted the entire apartment (was ****e nick when I moved in) bought and fitted new blinds, went around all the windows and doors fitting draft excluders and have done countless DIY tasks. I contacted the landlord twice in relation to issues I simply wasn't going to tackle. If he came back hiking rent I'd tell him where to go. I havn't gone looking for a penny from him, nor a rent reduction. I am fine with throwing money into it here and there, knowing in return I get an un intrusive landlord.

Me and the misses are the sort that treat a rented property like a home, **** I even mow the grass when most people wouldn't. I don't subscribe to that notion that for every little thing to do I should get onto my landlord and work out the financials, I've no problem throwing a few bob here and there. And in return I expect to be treated like an adult, not a child in his parents house. This crack with having to ring someone when I want to put up a picture....no way.

Was looking at a property two weeks ago and when I asked was there any major do's and don'ts the landlord had, the estate agent handed me a printout of about 8 pages. I had a quick glance at the first page, handed him the booklet back and said no thanks.

Has to be some give and take.

The request for bank statements really annoys me. Typically from my experience via estate agents is that I get ZERO information on the properties actual owners, yet in some cases they want to know what I've had for breakfast.

UCDVet

murphaph wrote: »

Yup. I'm all for a properly managed escrow system (I actually just follow the German model for my Irish tenants and put their deposits in an interest bearing savings account and give them the lot upon termination of the tenancy, but I'm not obliged to do that by any means). I use a standard Rabo direct account for my Irish tenants, which yields currently 1.45% before DIRT. For my German tenancy I must do things a little differently because I must be able to show a specific paper trail wrt deposit and interest etc. Most banks charge for this service. My bank offers it for free but pays the current statutory minimum of 0.2% interest, so my German tenant with guaranteed interest receives much less than my Irish tenants, which is sort of ironic.

If a proper escrow system comes in then it'll be a couple of weeks at best (assuming no disputes) before a tenant gets their deposit back, even in part. So, tenants will just have to have the deposit for the next place saved up and put away. To be honest I wouldn't want a tenant who couldn't save up a deposit for a place so this escrow thing would filter out some of the dead wood from my perspective, which can only be a good thing.

In Germany it's 3 months deposit but you can usually pay one month before tenancy commencement and the remaining 2 months within a set time thereafter. Something like that would be fine too.

Why should it take a few weeks to return a deposit? To me, the whole idea of having a deposit due to you, floating around, is madness.

I can't imagine any landlord would be willing to hand over the keys to their property without first having a deposit/rent. I'm always amazed that people expect tenants to be able to wait weeks to get their deposit back and float another deposit on top of it.

murphaph

UCDVet wrote: »

Why should it take a few weeks to return a deposit? To me, the whole idea of having a deposit due to you, floating around, is madness.

I can't imagine any landlord would be willing to hand over the keys to their property without first having a deposit/rent. I'm always amazed that people expect tenants to be able to wait weeks to get their deposit back and float another deposit on top of it.

That's the escrow system that's in place in the UK. Couple of weeks if there's no dispute, several weeks if there is a dispute. No escrow agency is going to be able to hand over a deposit on the day a tenant vacates (they won't carry cash and a bank transfer will take at least a day in the best case scenario...so the tenant still needs to have his deposit for the next place saved up as the LL there is not going to give him the keys until he has the deposit in his account or in his hand.) and that's assuming the agency can inspect on the exact day the tenant leaves.

Anyone who wants an escrow system must reckon with this built in delay in getting deposits back.

UCDVet

murphaph wrote: »

That's the escrow system that's in place in the UK. Couple of weeks if there's no dispute, several weeks if there is a dispute. No escrow agency is going to be able to hand over a deposit on the day a tenant vacates (they won't carry cash and a bank transfer will take at least a day in the best case scenario...so the tenant still needs to have his deposit for the next place saved up as the LL there is not going to give him the keys until he has the deposit in his account or in his hand.) and that's assuming the agency can inspect on the exact day the tenant leaves.

Anyone who wants an escrow system must reckon with this built in delay in getting deposits back.

Sure - if there are disputes, that's a different story. But otherwise? Come'on. Tenants need to give notice, or it's the end-date on the lease. It's not like it should ever be a surprise. Date is known well in advance. Do they not have cashier checks in Ireland?

I purchased a house in the US and that's how it was done. Go sign papers, if everyone is happy, seller hands over the keys and the buyer hands over the cashier's check. Check is validated by the bank beforehand and is verified by the recipient immediately via phone. It's as good as cash, but harder to steal.

When I sold the house, I got a cashiers check - again - at closing. For the agreed upon amount. Same story. No way would anyone expect you to sign paperwork and walk away empty handed on the hopes of getting what you were entitled. And like I said, I bought and sold, no problems. And it was through an escrow agent and all proper/above boards.

And that was years ago, before the all these marvelous technologies. I just moved into an apartment and I was able to pay the landlord his deposit/first month's rent in MINUTES. Honestly, it was probably seconds, and he just wasn't paying attention. I went to my bank's website, typed in the numbers, got a confirmation text, entered that, transferred the money, and he said, 'Okay - I got it. Swing by and pick up the keys whenever you like'.

But when it's time to get a deposit - suddenly the same landlord/escrow company needs a few weeks to sort it, and everyone thinks nothing of it?

murphaph

The banking system in Ireland (and Europe at large) simply doesn't allow that sort of setup. The very quickest a transfer from one bank to another will take is one working day (new SEPA rules, used to be longer). There are bank drafts which act like cashiers cheques and I don't know if there's a way to validate the genuineness of one over the phone. The problem comes when a partial refund of deposit is deemed appropriate. The agent can't have a bank draft for every possible amount there on his person, so we're back to the bank transfer and this will take at least a day. The agency might also be swamped on the day you are moving out and may not be able to get an agent round until the next day or so.

mdebets

murphaph wrote: »

Yup. I'm all for a properly managed escrow system (I actually just follow the German model for my Irish tenants and put their deposits in an interest bearing savings account and give them the lot upon termination of the tenancy, but I'm not obliged to do that by any means). I use a standard Rabo direct account for my Irish tenants, which yields currently 1.45% before DIRT. For my German tenancy I must do things a little differently because I must be able to show a specific paper trail wrt deposit and interest etc. Most banks charge for this service. My bank offers it for free but pays the current statutory minimum of 0.2% interest, so my German tenant with guaranteed interest receives much less than my Irish tenants, which is sort of ironic.

If a proper escrow system comes in then it'll be a couple of weeks at best (assuming no disputes) before a tenant gets their deposit back, even in part. So, tenants will just have to have the deposit for the next place saved up and put away. To be honest I wouldn't want a tenant who couldn't save up a deposit for a place so this escrow thing would filter out some of the dead wood from my perspective, which can only be a good thing.

In Germany it's 3 months deposit but you can usually pay one month before tenancy commencement and the remaining 2 months within a set time thereafter. Something like that would be fine too.[/QUOTE

You can't just take the German escrow system on its own and transfer it to Ireland, you need to see it in the wider context of renting in Germany.

In Germany, the average length of tenancies is much longer than in Ireland. With many people, moving after a year in Ireland, its much harder for tenants, to come up with additional 6 months rent (old and new deposit). It's much easier in Germany, if you have several years, to save for the deposit, plus the possibility, to pay the deposit over two or three months after you have moved in, by which time you already have received your old deposit back.
The higher deposit (as a better protection of the landlord from rough tenants) in Germany is also balanced by other legislation that protects tenants from rough landlords (you can reduce your rent, if the landlord doesn't fix things he is supposed to fix and he is only allowed to raise the rent by a maximum of 20% per year). In Ireland, this is (to a lesser degree) offset by a lower deposit, to make it easier for a tenant to move.

Take for example, if the hot water breaks in your apartment and the landlord is not willing (or able) to pay for the repair. In Germany, you can just reduce your rent, which makes it more likely, that the landlord is finding a way to repair it. In Ireland, you effectively have to sue (via the PRTB) the landlord to get it done, which will take a while, during which time you are still expected to pay the full rent, or you can move out, which will mean you will loose your deposit, but it would be unlikely that a landlord would win a case for outstanding rent against you. If you now increase the deposit to 3 months rent, it would make it much harder for the tenant to move out and loose 3 months of rent. This would mean that the landlord has even less incentive to fix the warm water, as he know that the tenant can't move out and still has to pay the rent, and the PRTB order to fix the warm water is a long way away.

Similar points can be made about rent increases. In Germany, you can calculate upfront, what the maximum rent in 3 years time will be and you have government compiled list of average rents. In Ireland, the landlord can raise the rent to the open market value (which is debatable, as know official list exists), without taking into account the current list. If the overall rents increase massively, he could increase the rent by 50 or even more percent over a few years, giving problems to tenants who can't move, due to not having the money for a new deposit, but also can't pay the increased prices.

murphaph

There's no escrow system in Germany. The deposit can be and usually is held by the landlord.

I'm on record here as also being in favour of rent controls to bring stability to the Irish rental market.

MouseTail

murphaph wrote: »

There's no escrow system in Germany. The deposit can be and usually is held by the landlord.

I'm on record here as also being in favour of rent controls to bring stability to the Irish rental market.

Ireland will have an escrow system this year. At least Id be surprised if it drags into next year. There are murmurings on rent controls, but I cant see it happening.

murphaph

If you think it's bad now wait until the PRTB are administering this escrow system.

BeatNikDub

ted1 wrote: »

2 months deposit, your having a laugh. Until there is an escrow in place with the PRTB holding it anybody who gives more than 1 month is daft.

As for bank statements, revenue would even ask for them.

I looked at a place about 5 years ago and the landlord was asking for everything you listed. The place was a kept badly and was dirty. I let rip and him and his wife and put them in the place. Rented the sane house 2 doors down that was much nicer and didn't require any if the above. Just a deposit and a conversation with the landlord and lady

Absolutely agree Ted.

dinnyirwin

As for dinnyiriwin, there is not one chance in hell I would ever going to pay 2 months deposit or even 3.

dinnyirwin wrote: »

Landlords now have a market where they can claw back some of the expenses that were handed out to them over the last few years and they could do nothing about. .

A deposit is NOTHING to do with clawing back your standard expenses...

The_Morrigan

This thread is to allow the discussion of all things deposits; norms, aspirations and theories on how to make the whole process more efficient for both landlords & tenants.

Posts from the Open Viewing thread have been copied over to here so you can pick up where you left off.

Morri

dinnyirwin

bluewolf wrote: »

A deposit is NOTHING to do with clawing back your standard expenses...

I suggest you read posts before commenting on them.

Nobody said that an increased deposit was to claw back expenses.
You took two different parts of a post and essentially added 2 and 2 and got 5.

And then you thank another poster who did exactly the same thing as you have just done too.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=88942693&postcount=29

Please read the damned posts properly before replying to them.

The_Morrigan

dinnyirwin wrote: »

.......

Please read the damned posts properly before replying to them.

If you post in that manner again you'll find yourself without access to the forum. Addressing other posters in that way will not be tolerated.

Stheno

I'm potentially becoming a renter in the next year after years of living in my own home due to a marriage breakdown.

While I can stump up a deposit and employer references, what am I supposed to do about landlord references?

The_Morrigan

Stheno wrote: »

I'm potentially becoming a renter in the next year after years of living in my own home due to a marriage breakdown.

While I can stump up a deposit and employer references, what am I supposed to do about landlord references?

Everyone has to start somewhere and not everyone is going to have a reference from a previous landlord. Deposit and employer references are a good start and an explanation as to why you weren't renting recently.

billie1b

dinnyirwin wrote: »

Im a landlord and though I use an agent now for all of my properties the things that would impress me at the moment are.

- Have your references (job and 2 or more previous landlords) with you.
- Have bank statements with you.
- Have a cheque ready and write in the first months rent plus 2 months deposit. (dont write in the amount til you hand it over or you might be wasting a cheque).
- Look respectable. Its not as easy as people think for a scumbag to look respectable. They just wont go to the effort. There are exceptions of course but in general.
- Arrive early. If the landlord does happen to be there early he might want to be in and out before everyone else is to turn up if he likes you and you want to take the property. He wants to avoid the scrum viewing too if at all possible.
- Ask questions, but dont start asking for things that the landlord may not want to provide. Like oh, that microwave is a year old, we would like a new one before we take it.
- If its furnished dont start asking the landlord to take away his own furniture = more hassle for him.


If you are a couple make sure you have references and statements for both people.

Some people dont like the idea of paying 2 months deposit but I can tell you it impresses landlords. Sets you out from the crowd.
As a matter of fact I have instructed my agent to ask for two months deposit for any let now. And I see it going to 3 months as standard in the not too distant future. It just gives the landlord that little bit more protection in case the tenant is a scumbag. And generally scumbags wont hand over 2 or 3 months deposit plus a month in advance.

Putting off bringing references, deposit etc just puts you behind anyone that has the ability to deal on the spot.
Having all those things allows the landlord to make a deal and then he can check them out in the morning. Instead of waiting around the next day for a whole heap of them.

You wanna see my bank statement and I as a tenant want to see yours and your statement from your mortgage company to show your payments are up to date and your not fobbing the money off!

Grolschevik

Sorry: posted this in another deposit thread, but it's probably more relevant here:

The whole point of the double or triple deposit idea is to give landlords more of a buffer against overholding, non-paying tenants, right?

However, it seems to me that those sorts of tenants who would not pay rent or overhold will still do so. But they'll just start doing so earlier. As in "I paid two (three) months worth of deposit, so I just won't pay my last two (three) months rent".

It's a false solution. The time it can take for a legal and actually enforced eviction make it so. Those tenants who would take the piss will still do so. And the perennial suspicion of landlords and deposit retention might even make it more likely?

Whereas those that won't do it will be financially inconvenienced or be turned off that property.

dinnyirwin

Grolschevik wrote: »

Sorry: posted this in another deposit thread, but it's probably more relevant here:

The whole point of the double or triple deposit idea is to give landlords more of a buffer against overholding, non-paying tenants, right?

However, it seems to me that those sorts of tenants who would not pay rent or overhold will still do so. But they'll just start doing so earlier. As in "I paid two (three) months worth of deposit, so I just won't pay my last two (three) months rent".

It's a false solution. The time it can take for a legal and actually enforced eviction make it so. Those tenants who would take the piss will still do so. And the perennial suspicion of landlords and deposit retention might even make it more likely?

Whereas those that won't do it will be financially inconvenienced or be turned off that property.

The eviction process could start while the non paying tent still has money in their deposit left. As they face the prospect of losing more of that they might well decide they dont want to lose anymore. Or like you say they might just dig in, but that would be rare.
Also if you get a tenant who will put up three months deposit next to one who can only put up one month, you would definitely think the tenant with 3 months deposit is more likely to be not be thinking about not paying the rent for the last three months. ANd you would think they would be more solvent and able to pay the rent.

Anyway 2 months will be standard by next year (already discussions about it on irishlandlord and askaboutmoney) and 3 months wont be long after. As it is at the moment I never see the deposits from my tenants. The agent hangs on to the deposit. The agent will issue a cheque for the deposit 2 weeks after the tenant has returned the keys, to give a little time to see if everything is in order.
Problem is when there is more damage done than the deposit is worth.

I also think a central escrow service will be in place in the next couple of years. This can be used as reference very easily for both landlord and tenant.

dinnyirwin

billie1b wrote: »

You wanna see my bank statement and I as a tenant want to see yours and your statement from your mortgage company to show your payments are up to date and your not fobbing the money off!

Has that strategy ever got you into the property you wanted?

johnnyskeleton

dinnyirwin wrote: »

Has that strategy ever got you into the property you wanted?

Interesting that this is being mooted now, when there is a severe rental shortage (in Dublin) and people are doing almost anything to snap up even unsuitable properties. You are suggesting that demanding increased terms, on top of already increased rent, is not only a good thing but is simply levelling the playing pitch.

If there is a glut of rental properties in a few months time, is it right for tenants to demand that they pay no deposit, show no documents and have a unilateral break clause?

The system of one month deposit, one month in advance, previous landlord reference and work reference has stood the test of time and is fair to both sides.

If you want a better tenant, or the larger deposit etc, why not charge below market rent and say it is because of that, rather than trying to change the industry norms?

gaius c

dinnyirwin wrote: »

It really bugs me when people start expecting a basic level of service for paying me a huge chunk of their monthly payslip.

FYP

billie1b

dinnyirwin wrote: »

Has that strategy ever got you into the property you wanted?

Yeah, my landlord has shown me a statement of his up to date payements on the house, without asking but he never asked to see my personal bank account. He's a great landlord though, if theres anything wrong he has it fixed within days and doesn't higher the rent to recoup it. He lowered the rent by €100 of the asking price for us after meeting us. You on the other hand sound like the nightmare landlord we had in our previous house a couple of years ago, a cowboy