How much deposit should I ask for?

redcard

Hi all, having just being stung by my tenants to use there deposit as there final mths rent! I'm thinking now when advertising I should be asking more than 1 mth rent as a deposit? What's the norm these days?

djimi

Where abouts is the property? In most parts of Dublin you can ask for whatever you want (the majority of tenants will tell you where to go with yourself but youll find someone). In most other parts of the country I wouldnt say you have much chance of getting more than a month.

Deposits are not protected in this country; its bad enough risking not getting your months worth back, most people will not be prepared to risk more than that.

redcard

The property is in Dublin. I just rent 1 house I'm not into ripping people off by holding there deposits for ware and tare or minor things, I rented my self for years so I know both sides. I just need to protect myself by asking more than 1 mth rent as deposit so I don't get stung again! I am going to check my property this week and am dreading it as I don't know what's going to meet me and there's noting I can do about it!!

Kristopherus

Have you got the home addresses of the gang that cheated you?

murphaph

Ask for 2 months now in Dublin.

Santa Cruz

redcard wrote: »

The property is in Dublin. I just rent 1 house I'm not into ripping people off by holding there deposits for ware and tare or minor things, I rented my self for years so I know both sides. I just need to protect myself by asking more than 1 mth rent as deposit so I don't get stung again! I am going to check my property this week and am dreading it as I don't know what's going to meet me and there's noting I can do about it!!

I am afraid you walked in to that one. The normal is a one month deposit to be refunded on satisfactory vacation by the tenant. Renting is a business and should operate as such. Hopefully you wont have too much disruption to the property

redcard

They have moved back to there own country. They were good tenants though so I'm hoping for the best!

_Kaiser_

You haven't actually lost anything though right - ie: you still have the deposit?

While I agree that they should have paid you the last month and left "properly" unfortunately (as you know yourself from renting) the experience often is that getting a deposit back - even if you are a perfect tenant - is a minefield in this country.

Chalk it up to experience but I wouldn't be counting on anyone giving you more than the current 1 month as a deposit given the hassle it may involve later.

AlanG

Given the amount of time you have to wait before issuing proceedings fro non payment of rent it is perfectly reasonable to ask for 2 months rent as deposit, especially for a furnished property. You should have no problem getting it.

_Kaiser_

AlanG wrote: »

Given the amount of time you have to wait before issuing proceedings fro non payment of rent it is perfectly reasonable to ask for 2 months rent as deposit, especially for a furnished property. You should have no problem getting it.

Given the amount of time you may have to wait to get your deposit back - or fight with the landlord over how much is returned - it is perfectly reasonable not to give any more than 1 months rent as deposit



See? Works both ways

djimi

And therein lies the problem with the deposit system, and more widely speaking the rental system overall, in this country. Landlord doesnt trust the tenant and wants larger deposit, tenant doesnt trust the landlord and wont hand over any more than they absolutely have to, both sides know that they can find themselves screwed over with little meaningful recourse other than to wait on an inefficient that could take a year to rule (and even then has no guarantees that they will see their money).

_Kaiser_

djimi wrote: »

And therein lies the problem with the deposit system, and more widely speaking the rental system overall, in this country. Landlord doesnt trust the tenant and wants larger deposit, tenant doesnt trust the landlord and wont hand over any more than they absolutely have to, both sides know that they can find themselves screwed over with little meaningful recourse other than to wait on an inefficient that could take a year to rule (and even then has no guarantees that they will see their money).

Exactly, but until renting in this country starts being treated as a professional transaction/service by ALL sides (government and "regulator" included!) rather than a stepping stone to "getting on the property ladder", or the option for "poor people" then it'll never change.

drumswan

Why not ask for the first and last months rent + 1 months deposit?

_Kaiser_

drumswan wrote: »

Why not ask for the first and last months rent + 1 months deposit?

So 3 months worth? I know what I'd be saying to that.

murphaph

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

So 3 months worth? I know what I'd be saying to that.

Depends how stuck you were.

_Kaiser_

murphaph wrote: »

Depends how stuck you were.

Nope.. Simply put I wouldn't have 4/5k (Dublin prices) to risk handing over to Average Joe Landlord, and on principle I wouldn't give it even if I had lest I be encouraging that sort of muppetry/greed given our rental system.

I'd never be that stuck.. even if it meant moving a little further out - but then you're talking to a guy who commuted from Cavan to Dublin for a year without a bother.

Daith

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

Nope.. Simply put I wouldn't have 4/5k (Dublin prices) to risk handing over to Average Joe Landlord, and on principle I wouldn't give it even if I had lest I be encouraging that sort of muppetry/greed given our rental system.

Indeed. Rising rents, lack of supply and now asking for more than a months deposit? I'd only consider it if it was going into an escrow system and not directly to the landlord.

djimi

Id be a lot more comfortable paying first and last months rent up front with only a months deposit than I would be paying first months rent up front and two months worth of a deposit. My big concern about the deposit is the serious risk that you wont get it back (at least without a drawn out battle), so the smaller the deposit the better.

redcard

Well I've just been up to the house to check everything out, one of the family has stayed behind to Move there stuff. Good news is they kept the house in good condition, just the usual cleaning and minor repairs to be done so my stress levels have come down! In saying that they have accumulated about 2 large skip loads of crap!! They have a man with a van coming for it today. They could have easily left that there and I'd be out of pocket to the tune of €500 or more. I am thinking along the lines of requesting as suggested 1st and last mths rent plus 1 mth deposit up frount. I have to protect myself !!

drumswan

djimi wrote: »

Id be a lot more comfortable paying first and last months rent up front with only a months deposit than I would be paying first months rent up front and two months worth of a deposit. My big concern about the deposit is the serious risk that you wont get it back (at least without a drawn out battle), so the smaller the deposit the better.

Agreed

_Kaiser_

redcard wrote: »

Well I've just been up to the house to check everything out, one of the family has stayed behind to Move there stuff. Good news is they kept the house in good condition, just the usual cleaning and minor repairs to be done so my stress levels have come down! In saying that they have accumulated about 2 large skip loads of crap!! They have a man with a van coming for it today. They could have easily left that there and I'd be out of pocket to the tune of €500 or more. I am thinking along the lines of requesting as suggested 1st and last mths rent plus 1 mth deposit up frount. I have to protect myself !!

And what protection will your tenants have from you? OK you seem like a decent sort from your posts here but a new tenant isn't going to know that - they'll just see a landlord looking for more than the norm with no guarantees.

Personally if I was asked for 3 months worth of rent before I even moved in I'd just move on to the next place. Things aren't THAT bad yet!

redcard

Kaiser, I hear what your saying it's like no one can be trusted these days. Suppose all I can say is I'm one of the honest landlords just trying to pay the morgage and not get ripped off in the process. I just hope I cross paths with the honest tennant;-)

Grolschevik

The whole point of the double or triple deposit idea is to give landlords more of a buffer against overholding non-paying tenants, right?

It seems to me that those sorts of tenants who would not pay rent or overhold will still do so. But they'll just start doing so earlier. As in "I paid two months worth of deposit, so I just won't pay my last two months rent".

It's a false solution. Those who would do it will still do it. And the perennial suspicion of landlords and deposit retention might even make it more likely.

Whereas those that won't do it will be financially inconvenienced or be turned off that property.

The_Conductor

Grolschevik wrote: »

The whole point of the double or triple deposit idea is to give landlords more of a buffer against overholding non-paying tenants, right?

It seems to me that those sorts of tenants who would not pay rent or overhold will still do so. But they'll just start doing so earlier. As in "I paid two months worth of deposit, so I just won't pay my last two months rent".

It's a false solution. Those who would do it will still do it. And the perennial suspicion of landlords and deposit retention might even make it more likely.

Whereas those that won't do it will be financially inconvenienced or be turned off that property.

Well- it would give the landlord time to actually issue proceedings against them. The PRTB proceedings are online- landlords do check prospective tenants out- as do tenants landlords. Its far from a satisfactory system- but if more unhappy tenants and landlords were to issue proceedings against their landlord or tenant- a history would build up- and once it gathers momentum, it would become more widely known, and before long- a common tool used by both parties.

Personally I think the first and final month's rent, along with 1 month's deposit, is a fair and reasonable solution- and one that most people will grudgingly accept as the most equitable.

TheDoc

djimi wrote: »

Id be a lot more comfortable paying first and last months rent up front with only a months deposit than I would be paying first months rent up front and two months worth of a deposit. My big concern about the deposit is the serious risk that you wont get it back (at least without a drawn out battle), so the smaller the deposit the better.

Agreed with this. Considering I doubt a tenants deposit is put into a separate account and left idle for the duration of lease, I'd imagine there can be trouble when it comes to getting deposits back off sums over 1 month.

It's a bit of a minefield, I'd never heard of two months deposit until the last few weeks. Last two properties I;ve been in, one month deposit and one month rent up front.

The notion of two months deposit plus one months rent is a spanner in the works.

All of a sudden its an extra grand I need to cough up, in a market that is currently chaotic and moving fast.

Personally haven't encountered anything in the last few weeks of my search, asking for two months. One landlord mentioned it and I said I wouldn't be offering more then one, and it was " a sure its grand".
I think alot of said written down and the likes, but I'd say landlords, like tenants, can get a vibe of people and might be able to relax a little bit.

This sort of stuff should be streamlined. There really needs to be a defined set of procedures for entering into an agreement. Preferably which governs a county, or even nationwide.

This craic of landlords essentially setting the rules as they see fit is pretty outragous to be fair. Just makes no sense to me. I'm essentially hearing something new every person I meet, and I'm on a whirlwind search for a house. Leaves me in a perilous position of constantly not having something they want, and the propoerty then going as there appears to be ZERO patiance among landlords and estate agents. Like their properties won't sell tomorrow or something.
Wild west out there at the moment. Really feeling the stress and pressure.

Two weeks now to find a house. Organised viewings for three properties, all next week. Literally **** all available and it seems its being made as difficult as possible for me.

jester77

Here in Germany, it's 3 months warm rent as deposit plus 1 months rent up front. The deposit is placed into an account where neither the landlord or the tenant can access without the permission of the other. Works good here and the tenant knows the landlord can't screw them over when it comes to getting the deposit back.

Daith

The_Conductor wrote: »

Personally I think the first and final month's rent, along with 1 month's deposit, is a fair and reasonable solution- and one that most people will grudgingly accept as the most equitable.

Surely this is still all in the landlords favour? He gets two months rent up front and the deposit is in his back account.

While it protects the landlord, it won't protect a tenant if the landlord doesn't give back the deposit?

I'd agree with the above only if the deposit wasn't in the landlords bank account though.

djimi

jester77 wrote: »

Here in Germany, it's 3 months warm rent as deposit plus 1 months rent up front. The deposit is placed into an account where neither the landlord or the tenant can access without the permission of the other. Works good here and the tenant knows the landlord can't screw them over when it comes to getting the deposit back.

I think most people in Ireland would be perfectly happy with such an arrangement. The problem we face is that once we hand over the deposit it disappears into a black hole, and we are at the mercy of the landlord having the funds in their personal account when we want to get our deposit back. Its bad enough risking one months deposit in such circumstances, but its unacceptable to expect people to risk more than that without some assurance that the money will be there when the tenancy ends.

djimi

Daith wrote: »

Surely this is still all in the landlords favour? He gets two months rent up front and the deposit is in his back account.

While it protects the landlord, it won't protect a tenant if the landlord doesn't give back the deposit?

I'd agree with the above only if the deposit wasn't in the landlords bank account though.

It might stand in the landlords favour, but its better than nothing. I dont mind handing over a total of three months rent if I knew that two of them were going towards the actual rent. The landlord still has the security of two months worth of rent (until the final month anyway), and the tenant knows that they are only risking one months worth of a deposit. Its not quite win-win, but its the best we can hope for until we get a proper deposit protection system.

The_Conductor

djimi wrote: »

I think most people in Ireland would be perfectly happy with such an arrangement. The problem we face is that once we hand over the deposit it disappears into a black hole, and we are at the mercy of the landlord having the funds in their personal account when we want to get our deposit back. Its bad enough risking one months deposit in such circumstances, but its unacceptable to expect people to risk more than that without some assurance that the money will be there when the tenancy ends.

I'd beg to differ.
While the escrow system sounds fine- can you really expect an Irish person to be satisfied to pay 3 months deposit- and a month's rent in advance?
Its never going to happen. Safety of the deposit wholly aside- what Irish tenant is going to hand over 4 months at the outset of the tenancy?

djimi

People may grumble about it, but its more likely to become more normal to have 2-3 month deposits when tenants know that there is no risk of the landlord basically stealing their money. The biggest issue now is not so much the amount but the fact that there is no guarantees that the money will ever be seen again.

Im inclined to agree though that asking for 3 months rent does not take into account the demographic of the Irish rental market compared to other countries, and expecting first time and young renters to be able to afford not just one 3 month deposit but possibly two (if we assume that the deposit is not going to be returned immediately) is probably not realistic.

hfallada

We don't need a deposit perfection scheme like the government is suggesting. The PRTB operates a slow enough organisation with a minimal work load. If the actually had to engage with people I wouldn't be surprised if it took up to a year for a deposit to be returned from them

djimi

The PRTB are absolutely the wrong people to administer such a system...

TheDoc

The_Conductor wrote: »

I'd beg to differ.
While the escrow system sounds fine- can you really expect an Irish person to be satisfied to pay 3 months deposit- and a month's rent in advance?
Its never going to happen. Safety of the deposit wholly aside- what Irish tenant is going to hand over 4 months at the outset of the tenancy?

Somewhat agree with this also.

If that was in place lets say now, I'd be expected to hand over €4800 at the outset. I don't know about you lads, but I don't have 5 grand knocking about my savings accounts, and if I did, I'd probably keep going and just get a mortgage and not bother with renting in the first place

runawaybishop

The_Conductor wrote: »

I'd beg to differ.
While the escrow system sounds fine- can you really expect an Irish person to be satisfied to pay 3 months deposit- and a month's rent in advance?
Its never going to happen. Safety of the deposit wholly aside- what Irish tenant is going to hand over 4 months at the outset of the tenancy?

It will depend on the property and the demand really. If enough are prepared to pay it then it will become the norm fairly fast in some areas.

_Kaiser_

TheDoc wrote: »

Somewhat agree with this also.

If that was in place lets say now, I'd be expected to hand over €4800 at the outset. I don't know about you lads, but I don't have 5 grand knocking about my savings accounts, and if I did, I'd probably keep going and just get a mortgage and not bother with renting in the first place

That's nail on head right there - most people renting won't have that kind of money lying around, and given that renting is seen as a "stepping stone" to buying anyway people won't be willing to throw that kind of cash into the "dead money" that is renting.

This might work alright in Germany but this isn't Germany and the Irish mindset is completely different. We can't even run the country in anything approaching a professional manner (everything from the top down is done on the "who you know" and "ah shure it'll be grand" approach), never mind a sector that is seen as a stopgap or poor man's option by most Irish people.

Until that mindset changes you haven't a hope of people accepting something like this - not to mention it still does nothing to address the problems experienced by one/both sides during a tenancy anyway.

runawaybishop

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

That's nail on head right there - most people renting won't have that kind of money lying around.

You should though.

djimi

runawaybishop wrote: »

You should though.

Perhaps, but I think its often overlooked in this discussion that a sizable portion of the Irish rental market is made up of younger and often first time renters, and to €4k+ is a lot of money to have as an initial fee. Its all well and good saying that renters should it, but not quite as black and white as that.

Ireland is not Germany. People do not typically rent beyond the early part of their adult life (or at least traditionally did not), and this is something that needs to be taken into consideration by both sides (including landlords when deciding it renting is a business that they want to get involved in).

Michael D Not Higgins

TheDoc wrote: »

Somewhat agree with this also.

If that was in place lets say now, I'd be expected to hand over €4800 at the outset. I don't know about you lads, but I don't have 5 grand knocking about my savings accounts, and if I did, I'd probably keep going and just get a mortgage and not bother with renting in the first place

What kind of mortgage are you getting with a 5 grand deposit?

jester77

djimi wrote: »

Perhaps, but I think its often overlooked in this discussion that a sizable portion of the Irish rental market is made up of younger and often first time renters, and to €4k+ is a lot of money to have as an initial fee. Its all well and good saying that renters should it, but not quite as black and white as that.

Ireland is not Germany. People do not typically rent beyond the early part of their adult life (or at least traditionally did not), and this is something that needs to be taken into consideration by both sides (including landlords when deciding it renting is a business that they want to get involved in).

The same is asked of young Germans, actually it's a bit more. Nearly all apartments are rented through an agent and they get 2.5 times cold rent. So young Germans have to come up with 6 months rent before moving into an empty apartment that they need to furnish.

I don't know how they finance it but it I've never heard too much complaints apart from having to pay the agent so much for 5 mins of work.

TheBandicoot

runawaybishop wrote: »

You should though.

For some people that could be 4 or 5 months worth of saving up, and where do you live in the meantime?

I'm 23 and while I could finance a 5 grand outlay on renting somewhere, that is a sizable double digit percentage of all the money I have in the world and would be a major decision to be made on my part.

Thomas D

NO way would I trust a scumlord with more than a months deposit.

_Kaiser_

runawaybishop wrote: »

You should though.

That might be fine if you're living at home and Mammy and Daddy are paying most or all of the bills - but when you're a bit older and have your own expenses, loans, kids etc to cover as well it's a little different .. especially given the often extremely unprofessional/made-up-as-we-go rental situations in this country.

Just look at some of the problems posted here every week - none of which will be addressed by handing over maybe 5k to a Joe Soap accidental/reluctant/greedy landord.

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

What kind of mortgage are you getting with a 5 grand deposit?

That's not what he said - he said he might as well keep going anyway towards a deposit if that's the kind of sums that were expected

Michael D Not Higgins

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

That's not what he said - he said he might as well keep going anyway towards a deposit if that's the kind of sums that were expected

Living where in the meantime?

Daith

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

Living where in the meantime?

Family?

_Kaiser_

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

Living where in the meantime?

OK let's for a minute imagine this nonsensical idea actually was implemented here in Ireland - I don't care what happens in Germany or the UK or anywhere else because, as I noted earlier, this isn't any of those places!

- Some would pay it (the more money than sense crowd) and still run into the same issues with tenancies we see on this board daily because we don't HAVE a professional rental market in this country. This in turn would drive prices up generally in the area/city

- Many more would refuse (or equally just couldn't afford it) and move further out thus increasing pressure and prices elsewhere, as well as increasing traffic and commuting times

- Others would move home assuming that was an option and Mammy and Daddy were prepared to keep/subsidise them

Now I'm sure we can all see for ourselves the knock-on effects this would have on the larger economy, people's lives and work.. if not just go back a few years in our history!

I have to say though, the fantasy world that some people here live in is bemusing. The idea that people who are renting and paying maybe €1300+ a month (which ISN'T cheap!) PLUS bills, commuting/car costs, kids etc can somehow pull another 4 grand out of their back pocket with no security or guarantee offered in return is just farcical!

But it is indicative of the larger problem.. that being that renting in Ireland is seen as a joke - something to be exploited, treated as a stop-gap to ownership, or a lesser option for the poor who can't afford to buy.

The biggest selling point for buying a property in Ireland ISN'T security or because it's "the done thing" or it shows you've "arrived" - it's to save yourself from dealing with amateur greedy nonsense like some of the stuff I see posted on this forum every week!

runawaybishop

TheBandicoot wrote: »

For some people that could be 4 or 5 months worth of saving up, and where do you live in the meantime?

I'm 23 and while I could finance a 5 grand outlay on renting somewhere, that is a sizable double digit percentage of all the money I have in the world and would be a major decision to be made on my part.

Wherever you were living before i would imagine. Yes, 5k is a decent bit of cash. It makes sense to have a couple months rent in the bank in case anything happens though. I a well aware many people cannot afford this, but that doesn't mean that it isn't best practise.

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

That might be fine if you're living at home and Mammy and Daddy are paying most or all of the bills - but when you're a bit older and have your own expenses, loans, kids etc to cover as well it's a little different .. especially given the often extremely unprofessional/made-up-as-we-go rental situations in this country.

Just look at some of the problems posted here every week - none of which will be addressed by handing over maybe 5k to a Joe Soap accidental/reluctant/greedy landord.

When you have more responsibilities its even more incumbent on you to have a fall back. Having first and last months rent paid, or 2 months in the bank in case of issues is just sensible.

Deposits will be held by a 3rd arty soon. Asking for 3 months will probably become the norm pretty quick.

_Kaiser_

runawaybishop wrote: »

Wherever you were living before i would imagine. Yes, 5k is a decent bit of cash. It makes sense to have a couple months rent in the bank in case anything happens though. I a well aware many people cannot afford this, but that doesn't mean that it isn't best practise.


When you have more responsibilities its even more incumbent on you to have a fall back. Having first and last months rent paid, or 2 months in the bank in case of issues is just sensible.

Deposits will be held by a 3rd arty soon. Asking for 3 months will probably become the norm pretty quick.

What's "sensible" as you call it vs what's practical/reality for many renters is two different things. It's not just house owners and landlords who are finding the residential accommodation market tough you know!

As for the deposit being held by a third party, while that's welcome it's only part of the problem - look through some of the threads here of tenants, landlord and estate agents all pulling fast ones or just being ignorant to their responsibilities. Where the deposit sits won't change that plus if it's being administered by the PRTB it'll no doubt take forever based on their normal reaction time.

I can't see this becoming the norm for the reasons I outlined above, and moving home to mammy and daddy (historically the done thing in this country) isn't always an option either.

Plus there still hasn't been any answer to my question earlier in the thread - what assurances does a tenant get for handing over this large sum of money to a Joe Soap landlord?? None! It won't force them to deal with issues any quicker, it won't stop them (or their agents) chancing their arms with rent increases, denying liability for flood damage, forcing new leases on people etc (and that's just from the first few pages of this forum!)

Luckily though in the real world outside this forum, this sort of talk is unlikely to actually happen and even if it did, it'll likely be confined to the so-called desirable South County Dublin region (and as someone living there now I really can't see the appeal of the place save for it being close to my office, but I'd happily commute (again) if it came to it too)

runawaybishop

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

What's "sensible" as you call it vs what's practical/reality for many renters is two different things. It's not just house owners and landlords who are finding the residential accommodation market tough you know!

As for the deposit being held by a third party, while that's welcome it's only part of the problem - look through some of the threads here of tenants, landlord and estate agents all pulling fast ones or just being ignorant to their responsibilities. Where the deposit sits won't change that plus if it's being administered by the PRTB it'll no doubt take forever based on their normal reaction time.

I can't see this becoming the norm for the reasons I outlined above, and moving home to mammy and daddy (historically the done thing in this country) isn't always an option either.

Plus there still hasn't been any answer to my question earlier in the thread - what assurances does a tenant get for handing over this large sum of money to a Joe Soap landlord?? None! It won't force them to deal with issues any quicker, it won't stop them (or their agents) chancing their arms with rent increases, denying liability for flood damage, forcing new leases on people etc (and that's just from the first few pages of this forum!)

Luckily though in the real world outside this forum, this sort of talk is unlikely to actually happen and even if it did, it'll likely be confined to the so-called desirable South County Dublin region (and as someone living there now I really can't see the appeal of the place save for it being close to my office, but I'd happily commute (again) if it came to it too)

Yes, i am aware its not practical for many, i did state that.

Deposits will soon be held in escrow, i am not sure why are you are referring to Joe Soap landlord? Thats not the scenario we are referring to.

This forum isnt indicative of the rental market. By its very nature we are far more likely to hear the bad stories.

Victor

Thomas D wrote: »

NO way would I trust a scumlord with more than a months deposit.

Please tone down your language.

Moderator

murphaph

Yep, I'd expect the introduction of the escrow system to see landlords increase their standard deposit requirement to 2 months in short order.