Do I need to register as a business?

EP90

Last year I bought in a couple of orphan lambs, got a flock number, raised them and killed for personal meat. This year I would like to increase the number to 6, raise, slaughter and sell the meat to local friends. I’m retired and as such complete Revenue tax F11 for a pension. Do I need to register the rearing/sale of the lambs as a business with anyone or just declare it as earned income on F11?
Thanks for any info.

TomOnBoard

Have a look at this:

http://www.kbg.ie/Taxation_Brochure_2012.pdf

Then, consider a chat with yer accountant.

EP90

Thanks for the link and some heavy reading !
I have four acres, so only a very small smallholder and not worthy of an accountant.
The question arose because of a Motor tax renewal and the goods only declaration for a commercial van I use for transport of feed, sheep, straw etc. past years a flock number was required. This year the form http://www.environ.ie/en/LocalGovernment/MotorTax/PublicationsDocuments/FileDownLoad,23874,en.pdf
requires me to confirm that 'my business is registered with the revenue commissioners for tax purposes' hence my question do I need to do more than just declare profits on F11 via ROS
Thanks again for any input.

TomOnBoard

What makes that new regulation worse is that it appears you have to be registered for VAT, not just have a business. Unless I'm wrong.

So for example, if you're involve in forestry, any profits from which are not taxable in law, you wouldn't have a business registered. How therefore do you satisfy this requirement?

rancher

TomOnBoard wrote: »

What makes that new regulation worse is that it appears you have to be registered for VAT, not just have a business. Unless I'm wrong.

So for example, if you're involve in forestry, any profits from which are not taxable in law, you wouldn't have a business registered. How therefore do you satisfy this requirement?

Is it a big or a small van
Some small vans don't cost much more to tax private, save the hassle,
Small farmers don't have to register for vat.

EP90

Large old van with a big engine and very handy. expensive tax!!
It’s a call to the income tax office tomorrow and see what’s involved.

TomOnBoard

EP90 wrote: »

It’s a call to the income tax office tomorrow and see what’s involved.

Why should you have to? My first port of call would be the Motor Tax office to ask why you should have to register just to tax a van. Bloody ridiculous bureaucratic nonsense!:mad:

EP90

Motor tax office won’t issue an ‘own goods’ taxation without form RF111a goods only declaration confirming my business is registered with the Revenue.
Rang the income tax and they are sending out the necessary paperwork, so I’ll see what’s involved in registering as a business versus the saving in motor tax.

Any advice welcome.

tattycat

I was advised by Gaurdi to use pps number...... I have a crew cab same problem. Not allowed to have a large van without legitimate reason. NUTS

TomOnBoard

tattycat wrote: »

Not allowed to have a large van without legitimate reason. NUTS

NOT ALLOWED!!!:mad:

Are we living in Mao's China FFS?:mad:

Im not fighting with you, but how can any so-called Democratic Republic put this kind of Bolloxilogical regime in place??:mad::mad:

And we allow it, because we are so tied up every day in JUST SURVIVING!:mad::mad::mad:

sawdoubters

I would not register

you would have agriculture on you back as well


https://www.agriculture.gov.ie/publications/2010/schemesandservices2010-2011/9animalhealthandwelfare-part1/

EP90

I have a Transit which is handy for moving sheep, bales, hurdles etc hence trying to get Goods tax rate.

Tattycat, PPS number is the same thing as your self employed tax number so can be crossed checked to ensure you’re a registered business with the revenue (if they choose to).

Sawdoubters. Thanks for the link. I’m already registered with them with a herd number. Do you there will be more aggravation from them if I register as a business?

Its fecking hard work trying to stay legal. I may just say bollox and put down the pps number and take me chance.

TomOnBoard

I wonder does the IFA have a position on this issue? Surely this would be a problem for their less wealthy members?

Still fuming about it! :mad:

sandydan

that law was brought in to limit use of commercial vehicles for leisure purposes ,far as i can remember details-it's almost illegal to use one on weekends or outside working hours, or proposed to, big hullabullo a few years ago,when enforced on trades and farmers alike, one of these regulations slipped in under the radar,ie law brought in ,and enforced 1 or 2 years later ,like for example (not to change topic) the new building law regs, which eliminates the self builder,real can of worms that,passed in early last year and will be in force from 1st March 2014.there are plenty allegations of people driving vans asked to provide employment details on a weekly basis,at checkpoints by social welfare officers accompanied by gardai,to combat fraud,were bankers or developers driving vans? or am i bigoted or what's the term?:mad:

J.O. Farmer

sandydan wrote: »

there are plenty allegations of people driving vans asked to provide employment details on a weekly basis,at checkpoints by social welfare officers accompanied by gardai,to combat fraud,were bankers or developers driving vans? or am i bigoted or what's the term?:mad:

I hate to break it to you but most bankers are still in jobs and unlikely to be claiming social welfare. Developers drove big jeeps more than vans but they are commercial too.
The people who you seem to be referring to are people who work in the building trade. If they are working they shouldn't be claiming social welfare or at least should be declaring what income they are getting. I don't think because of what went on with bankers and developers that people who worked in the building industry should be free to work and earn undeclared income and claim social welfare. If the van drivers stopped at checkpoints are obeying the laws of the land they should have nothing to worry about. Fraud should not be tolerated regardless of if it's a lad doing a small bit of building or a large bank.

sandydan

J.O. Farmer wrote: »

I hate to break it to you but most bankers are still in jobs and unlikely to be claiming social welfare.

I heard some where that to attract a banker, pay needed to be in excess of E500,000 to entice them to work in current environment in a manner to which they were accustomed or something like that and bonuses-shares- should now be added if they are to be KEPT in Ireland and an allowance to match current lifestyle if one is evicted due to being broke or is that the wrong term too. now how is that relevant to original topic and where did i refer to working people in trades only being stopped to prove they are entitled to a van (commercial vehicle) on whenever. im told ,may not be accurate it's illegal to have a tool box or gas drum in car,ordinary-farmers like me often require tools to strip down parts they are purchasing secondhand,or carry beef nuts etc, seems like regulations gone mad in Ireland to curtail use of commercial vehicles (or vans,landrovers,transits) some manufacturers have now defined new 4x4s as commercial which looks to fly in face of Irish legal definition, so stand back and watch the sparks fly when put on market or will big business win again?

J.O. Farmer

I agree bankers are overpaid but there shouldn't be fraud occurring if the financial regulator is doing his job. Granted it's a big if.
It's not illegal to transport tools and other items in connection with your farming enterprise. If anything its the opposite it's illegal to use the van for any private use. That said with farming it's a grey area given that the revenue will accept the family car running costs as a business expense and deduct a percentage for personal use. If that applies to a car it should apply to a van.
It is illegal to have undeclared income while claiming social welfare or for income tax purposes. I presume that's the point of the checkpoints you talk about. Those multi agency ones are becoming more common. Commercial tax isn't all that cheap anyway compared to cars anymore so there's not much incentive to have a small van instead of a small car. If you are driving a big van you probably need it for some business reason.

sandydan

sandydan wrote: »

im told ,may not be accurate it's illegal to have a tool box or gas drum in car,ordinary-farmers like me often require tools to strip down parts they are purchasing secondhand,or carry beef nuts etc,

i should have made it clearer i was referring to a car there.
what about tools in a car,and farm produce,aren't they specifically excluded from insurance cover,making their transport illegal except in a trailer.So a van would fit bill.but if stopped while using van with no tools etc to collect items you could be in trouble on way,
I did hear if a van (commercial vehicle ) is purchased revenue can demand some of the rebate is returned if in their opinion revenue ( tax) returns on the business were insufficient,or didn't justify rebate?
Big vans can be bought for pittance now in pwo, great for calf mart and transporting dismantled or medium sized machines,furniture etc.

J.O. Farmer

I'm not sure about the car. I thought that an exception was made in relation to the family farm its probably something that your insurance company would be better placed to advise you on.
In relation to the van the letter of the law is impractical in that you can't pick up a litre of milk on the way back from checking cattle as that is personal use.
I don't think you would always need to be carrying something though. Checking cattle on an outfarm is a legitimate farming activity which you need only yourself. I think using a van as transport for legitimate farming activity should be acceptable as it's not something you would be doing without the farm. On that basis I don't see how a farmer going about farming business could break the law by driving an empty van.

sandydan

farming business is usually in locality where local garda always knows the score it's whenever a journey well outside farm is where a clean empty van is required that problems start,but when buying for first time its annoying to say the least and daft over regulated like getting an angle grinder to sharpen a thumb tack and having to drive back to shop in car for milk after passing by in van

J.O. Farmer

It's just another classic example of somebody in an office coming up with an idea that when applied in practice has all sorts of daft probably unintended effects that they don't see because it will never effect them.
You have to hope common sense applies in applying these things.

sandydan

just come in from checking some heifers in calving pen wet miserable night outside wonder if they(advisors) had this for 3 weeks what daft solution to checking calving animals in wet weather would they come up with, don't tell me we'll wait for some suggestions from others tomorrow

Nekarsulm

local lad who owns a shoe shop was stopped at a checkpoint, when the Guard couldn't find anything wrong with Tax, Insurance, DOE or License, then proceeded to lecture him about picking his child up from school in the van. Told him he should go home and get the car and then pick up the child , before returning home to get the van again. This led to a heated argument about how was he expected to get both the child and the van to the shop (where the child does her homework, etc till 5pm) Guard got angry and said "be on your way, now" and walked off.

sandydan

EP90 wrote: »

Last year I bought in a couple of orphan lambs, got a flock number, raised them and killed for personal meat. This year I would like to increase the number to 6, raise, slaughter and sell the meat to local friends. I’m retired and as such complete Revenue tax F11 for a pension. Do I need to register the rearing/sale of the lambs as a business with anyone or just declare it as earned income on F11?
Thanks for any info.

To get back to original question:)
I would be more wary of health and safety issues,ie safe food,all relevant issues in just in case of infections etc. How would regs in slaughter for sale and supply, compare with sale and supply of raw milk for example or is this relevant?

EP90

Thanks for the inputs as I am taking an interest and its throwing up some views.
As I'm classed as self employed (Retired) it seems registering a business as a sole trader is the way to go. Any profit from sheep will just be taxed at a personal rate of being self employed. This then satisfies form RF111A to allow goods taxation.
If the regs. for sale of meat gets complicated I'll sell as live stock at a mart etc.
I'm not looking to retire to Panama, just a break even smallholding.

sandydan

well i never figured you were doing it for the money ,believe me,selling to friends to slaughter themselves will get around food regs and still give them a financial incentive to buy as lamb purchased that way is a money saver big time and they know it's origin,also the cost of registering as business can be avoided and just fill farming tax forms instead, then some of your other costs,car or van running fuel and repairs tax and insurance and portion of your electricity,phone bill mains water, etc may be put against your sales,so your total sales profit wont be taxable in it's entirety,this will give you a chance "to test the waters" as the saying goes while having a healthy pastime profitable i hope.:)

tattycat

But what about me? I'm on a 3 acre smallholding, 4 big dogs, nd car boot sales some weekends..where's the break for people like me?

sandydan

well you could try a few lambs or depending on location farm animal visitors centre start with the other wooly creatures that scare the fox,whats their names,or maybe your writing talent ,get typing you might have something worthwhile to read, sure weel all buy it.:)hows your storytelling ability,if musical try busking,there is no millionaire in farming nowadays i my opinion just bluffers who like high profile and those as locals say " have old money" and the rest of us who think we made money until some forgotten bill come in "Oh Cripes here we go again its the fair next week forget about the feckin kitchen unit missus":D