More Irish Heritage faces the cutters torch

Judgement Day

From the Maritime forum: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=88862324#post88862324



I really despair of this country and I'm worn out from my own efforts at preservation - which of course is what the authorities want - but surely there's somebody else out there who can get off their backsides and do something about this? :mad::mad::mad:

Jawgap

What's the historical significance of the vessel?

riffmongous

Jawgap wrote: »

What's the historical significance of the vessel?

I only heard about this for the first time a few minutes ago so I am only reposting what I saw on a facebook page 'Naomh Eanna Trust'.

Built in the Liffey Dockyard, Dublin from 1956 to 1958, the MV Naomh Eanna was built to carry passengers and supplies to the Aran Islands, off the west coast of Ireland. She worked this route for her entire life, plying out of Galway and was retired in 1988, following a hard career in one of the worst seas on the planet. In 1989 she was secured by the Irish Nautical Trust who moved her to Grand Canal Dock, Dublin where she is now moored.

Sad indeed if they are just going to destroy it

gobnaitolunacy

A not-too-far away example of what can be done with an old ship...pity there's no imagination south of the border.

http://www.nomadicbelfast.com/

plus an update from the iwai forum...

'She is not taking on water or sinking or anything like that, and she should be under no circumstances be cut up, are we now down to photos of our heritage? Go figure folks..there are very interested and serious people interested in taking on this ship, all we need is the will from the powers to be to let them do it, and I know it will be done...do we want sterile boatless waterways?'

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/q60gdhv0uznwlcc/oyfT9LFcx3

Jawgap

I'll be honest - I don't see the historical significance of the vessel. She was an island ferry who did a lot of good work serving the offshore communities. Beyond that I'm not sure what makes her part of history?

If she was conserved would she even be that much of a tourist draw compared to the Nomadic or HMS Caroline when she she's finished?

I suspect the interest in her would be no more than niche.

Reekwind

I think we have to be careful here. It is the normal course of events for buildings to be torn down and ships cut up; there is nothing wrong with that. Conservation looks to preserve those artefacts that are of real historical significance, rather than simply keeping things as they were. And, in truth, I don't see why the Naomh Eanna warrants maintaining

Judgement Day

Reekwind wrote: »

I think we have to be careful here. It is the normal course of events for buildings to be torn down and ships cut up; there is nothing wrong with that. Conservation looks to preserve those artefacts that are of real historical significance, rather than simply keeping things as they were. And, in truth, I don't see why the Naomh Eanna warrants maintaining

The "Naomh Eanna" should be preserved if for no other reason than we have damn all of our maritime heritage preserved 'down here' - not a damn thing! Our railway heritage has been given away to Belfast too. Where did you get your definition of conservation from? Who says it's only about artefacts that are of real historical significance? Tell that to the Ulster Folk & Transport Museum and the myriad of other museums throughout the world that preserve every day items for future generations. Ireland is different though, a world leader in bull**** interpretative centres - cut up the real thing and then build a centre about it with OPW mannequins and FAS trainees giving guided tours to confused Americans. :rolleyes:

Jawgap

Judgement Day wrote: »

The "Naomh Eanna" should be preserved if for no other reason than we have damn all of our maritime heritage preserved 'down here' - not a damn thing! Our railway heritage has been given away to Belfast too. Where did you get your definition of conservation from? Who says it's only about artefacts that are of real historical significance? Tell that to the Ulster Folk & Transport Museum and the myriad of other museums throughout the world that preserve every day items for future generations. Ireland is different though, a world leader in bull**** interpretative centres - cut up the real thing and then build a centre about it with OPW mannequins and FAS trainees giving guided tours to confused Americans. :rolleyes:

A ferry is not exactly and everyday item that can be archived, catalogued and displayed. It takes a lot of money to renovate and maintain a ship / boat in the water.

I still don't see what is significant about this vessel that might make it worth preserving - other than the fact that it's old. Is there anything remotely unique about its design, construction or service that would lead even a few people to add it to a list of things to see or suggest it should be preserved as an example of Ireland's maritime heritage for future generations to study?

If we had the money I'd prefer if we hung on to one of the naval vessels as the centre piece for a maritime heritage museum in Cork - and / or plonk it in the river opposite Collins Barracks to compliment the Soldiers and Chiefs exhibition.

The Ulster Folk & Transport Museum also charges an entry fee - would people pay to go see the Naomh Eanna?

As for the idea that "our railway heritage has been given away to Belfast" - surely it's a shared heritage and therefore it's just as much 'theirs' as 'ours'?

donegal.

gobnaitolunacy wrote: »

A not-too-far away example of what can be done with an old ship...pity there's no imagination south of the border.

http://www.nomadicbelfast.com/

"last remaining White Star Line ship in the world"

it would take a quare leap of imagination to compare the significance of the two boats . :rolleyes:

Judgement Day

donegal. wrote: »

"last remaining White Star Line ship in the world"

it would take a quare leap of imagination to compare the significance of the two boats . :rolleyes:

I don't why you're bothering to post in the History & Heritage forum given that you appear to have no interest in or grasp of the subject. Here's a few roll eyes for you too. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Judgement Day

Jawgap wrote: »

A ferry is not exactly and everyday item that can be archived, catalogued and displayed. It takes a lot of money to renovate and maintain a ship / boat in the water.

I still don't see what is significant about this vessel that might make it worth preserving - other than the fact that it's old. Is there anything remotely unique about its design, construction or service that would lead even a few people to add it to a list of things to see or suggest it should be preserved as an example of Ireland's maritime heritage for future generations to study?

If we had the money I'd prefer if we hung on to one of the naval vessels as the centre piece for a maritime heritage museum in Cork - and / or plonk it in the river opposite Collins Barracks to compliment the Soldiers and Chiefs exhibition.

The Ulster Folk & Transport Museum also charges an entry fee - would people pay to go see the Naomh Eanna?

As for the idea that "our railway heritage has been given away to Belfast" - surely it's a shared heritage and therefore it's just as much 'theirs' as 'ours'?

So because something costs money to preserve it should be scrapped. Why a naval vessel should be preserved anymore than a commercial vessel? As for the railway items in Belfast - I think I'm well placed to know what the reaction would be if any of the collection were sought for repatriation to the south - shared heritage my hole. That said rather in Belfast than scrapped.

gobnaitolunacy

donegal. wrote: »

"last remaining White Star Line ship in the world"

it would take a quare leap of imagination to compare the significance of the two boats . :rolleyes:

It would be a relatively obscure WSL ship outside of special interest circles and within a hairs breadth of being disposed of without a whimper. I never knew it still even existed before it was brought back to Belfast.

Re railway presevation, they're prob better off being all up in NI, they'd get sod all recogition, appreciation, protection and heritage lottery grants 'down Mexico way'.

I wouldn't mind but there was no effort to offer the Naomh Eanna to any group that might be interested, just 'scrap it already'.

Jawgap

Judgement Day wrote: »

So because something costs money to preserve it should be scrapped.

Quite simply - yes. The less historically significant something is, the less should be spent preserving it. It's one thing to preserve household artifacts for nominal sums, it's quite another to spend hundreds of thousands restoring a vessel and tens of thousands maintaining it - unless the vessel has some unique characteristic.

Judgement Day wrote: »

Why a naval vessel should be preserved anymore than a commercial vessel?

Because certain of our naval vessels were built in Ireland (at Verolme) and gave a certain service to the State.

LE Aoife, due to be retired later this year, was built in Ireland, and was involved in the rescue of the Canadian sub - Chicoutimi. She was also involved in the Air India disaster.

Deirdre - the first of her class was designed and built here and was involved in Fastnet Race disaster. She's now a luxury yacht.

Emer - other than being available, I can't think of a reason, but someone with a better knowledge of the Navy may have an idea.

Also, the Naval Service's ships were very well looked after and when they are decommissioned are seaworthy. Other than some work to remove or decommission equipment, the cost involved in relocating and maintaining them is quite modest.

Judgement Day wrote: »

As for the railway items in Belfast - I think I'm well placed to know what the reaction would be if any of the collection were sought for repatriation to the south - shared heritage my hole. That said rather in Belfast than scrapped.

It's on the island - that's the important thing. It's not like it's inaccessible to anyone who is interested.

Judgement Day

The "Naomh Eanna" was built in Dublin in 1958 by Liffey Dockyard and it could be argued also performed some service to the State. There is a large, untapped public interest in maritime things in Ireland judging from the crowds that turn out to watch the Tall Ships etc. but there's never any follow through. The Dublin Port people don't seem to know what they about, as they allow the "Jeanie Johnston" to deteriorate while buying the "Kitiwake", the last Irish lightship in the Republic from Harry Crosbie. The simple fact is that a worthwhile maritime collection could be established in the Republic - including your beloved naval vessels - but not without pressure being brought to bear on the politicians.

The amount of tourists estimated to have visited Ireland due to the €13 million spend on "The Gathering" was 275,000 - imagine if this sort of money had been wisely invested in key projects such as a National Transport Museum or Maritime Museum. It wouldn't be a one-off 275,000 visitors would it? Varadkar and Deenihan need to cop themselves on - will it happen - hell no, especially with the defeatist attitude amongst southern 'preservationists'.

Jawgap

With respect, do you think a National Transport or Maritime Museum would add more than a few hundred visitors - as in people who would decide to come to Ireland primarily to visit such a site?

I'd imagine most of any potential visitors to such a museum would add it to their itinerary having already decided to come here.

If the Naomh Eanna was approaching decommissioning and was still generally seaworthy I'd say she should be preserved but looking at the amount of work she seems to need (although I'll admit to not being an expert), I'd suggest the finite budget we have to spend on heritage could be spent better elsewhere.

It would be a sad and unworthy end to a ship that has provided sterling service but I'd suggest remediating her before sinking her somewhere close to shore (for divers to use) would be a better use of the hull (maybe as part of a 'blueway')

Reekwind

Judgement Day wrote: »

Where did you get your definition of conservation from? Who says it's only about artefacts that are of real historical significance?

I'd start with the National Monuments Act, myself. You know, "a matter of national importance by reason of the historical, architectural, traditional, artistic, or archaeological interest"

You've got to give a strong case as to why a building/ship/whatever has to be maintained indefinitely, as opposed to giving way to the new. Either its got intrinsic value in itself or it's a strong example of a particular genre/style. Otherwise you're just trying to live in the past and we'd all be living in 19th C tenements

gobnaitolunacy wrote:

It would be a relatively obscure WSL ship outside of special interest circles and within a hairs breadth of being disposed of without a whimper

The Nomadic was almost certainly saved by its connection to the Titanic

gobnaitolunacy

Reekwind wrote: »

The Nomadic was almost certainly saved by its connection to the Titanic

*slow handclap*

riffmongous

I would be in favour of keeping it as for an island nation we don't seem to have much of a maritime heritage already, which I would say should be of historic national importance, except it doesn't seem to be because it was more or less ignored before.

Judgement Day

Jawgap wrote: »

With respect, do you think a National Transport or Maritime Museum would add more than a few hundred visitors - as in people who would decide to come to Ireland primarily to visit such a site?

I'd imagine most of any potential visitors to such a museum would add it to their itinerary having already decided to come here.

If the Naomh Eanna was approaching decommissioning and was still generally seaworthy I'd say she should be preserved but looking at the amount of work she seems to need (although I'll admit to not being an expert), I'd suggest the finite budget we have to spend on heritage could be spent better elsewhere.

It would be a sad and unworthy end to a ship that has provided sterling service but I'd suggest remediating her before sinking her somewhere close to shore (for divers to use) would be a better use of the hull (maybe as part of a 'blueway')

With respect I do think considerably more than a few hundred additional visitors would be attracted by the presence of a good maritime or transport museum. However stand alone attractions as in one maritime museum aren't going to have that effect but what is needed is a range of related, quality attractions - apart from pubs, some increasingly blighted scenery, mind crushing interpretative centres and some surfing (way out west) Ireland has little to offer. Compare our tourist offering with the UK mainland and it's laughable but the Failte Ireland/Govt. policy is not based on repeat business rather get 'em in once and fleece them.

Your argument about the 'finite' amount to spend on heritage holds no water - sorry - but if we are to be serious about tourism/heritage money needs to be stripped from other budgets. I'm not saying where as that will take us seriously off topic.

Jawgap

Judgement Day wrote: »

.....

Your argument about the 'finite' amount to spend on heritage holds no water........

Unlike the ship.......sorry, couldn't resist that one.

Reekwind

gobnaitolunacy wrote: »

*slow handclap*

Hmmm. I was expecting you to point out the similar circumstances that would make the Naomh Eanna a monument of note

beauf

I don't get the significance of this vessel either.

deise08

Lets hope she doesn't go the way of the Port Lairge. a sorry site to see now.

CrabRevolution

I wouldnt be a massive follower of history and conservation, and generally in conservation arguments I side with the history/tourism side. But I really don't get how this ship is particularly significant, it's setting the bar very very low if this is an example of a valuable part of Irish heritage.

You'd swear they were torching the Book of Kells or bulldozing the GPO the way some here are going on.

Judgement Day

I suppose a mere ferry like the "Naomh Eanna" doesn't really compare with the other ships preserved in our National Maritime Museum does it ...oh wait :rolleyes:

From the thread in the Maritime Forum:

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/break-up-of-aran-island-ferry-for-scrap-opposed-by-waterway-enthusiasts-1.1685587

Jawgap

Judgement Day wrote: »

I suppose a mere ferry like the "Naomh Eanna" doesn't really compare with the other ships preserved in our National Maritime Museum does it ...oh wait :rolleyes:

From the thread in the Maritime Forum:

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/break-up-of-aran-island-ferry-for-scrap-opposed-by-waterway-enthusiasts-1.1685587

Sorry, but if the presence or otherwise of illustrious passengers is the benchmark then we should have every bus, tram and train (or most of them) preserved.

I think the clue is in the headline - "Break-up of Aran island ferry for scrap opposed by waterway enthusiasts" - I think most people wouldn't see the merit in recovering and restoring her and given the likely costs involved it's an even tougher sell.

The other ship mentioned in that article - LE Macha - was scrapped and she was a former flower-class corvette who served on the Arctic convoy route when she was in service with the RN.

She also brought the remains of WB Yeats back from France for reburial. She was scrapped in 1970.

I don't mean that as justification for scrapping the Naomh Eanna, I just cite it as an example of how more historically significant ships have gone for scrap.

I think if people want the Naomh Eanna to be saved then they have to find something worth saving in her, other than the fact that she's been around for a bit.

Judgement Day

You've effectively answered your own question - there's nothing worthy of preservation in Ireland - everybody's out of step save for our Jim. :rolleyes:

beauf

I'd have liked to see the Flower Class.

Judgement Day

Just flicking around European Maritime Museums and came across this one in Turkey http://www.rmk-museum.org.tr/en/rmk_navigation.htm - lots of everyday craft preserved. The lifeboat is a bit of a contrast to the "Mary Stanford". Turkey is a country that would readily spring into my mind as a place noted for conservation but this museum is an eyeopener.

Jawgap

Judgement Day wrote: »

You've effectively answered your own question - there's nothing worthy of preservation in Ireland - everybody's out of step save for our Jim. :rolleyes:

No, there's tons of stuff worth preserving and if enough people think that vessel is worth preserving then preserved it shall be.

In the case of the museum in Turkey - the "about us" section of their website seems to suggest it is a privately (largely) funded venture. I think if public money is going to be spent preserving something then the something needs to be extra extra special.

We all things we think are worth preserving or pet projects that appeal to our own sense of what's historical but just because the belief is passionately held doesn't mean the items are actually historical.

Btw- if Weston Aerodrome is suddenly purchased and turned into a Museum of Irish Aviation History, you'll know I will have won the Euromillions!

gobnaitolunacy

Reekwind wrote: »

Hmmm. I was expecting you to point out the similar circumstances that would make the Naomh Eanna a monument of note

It's one of the last if not the last vessels of riveted construction, built in Dublin and the last remaining railway owned seagoing vessel on the island of Ireland, but I can't imagine that means anything to you. If people were on the ball in the 1960s we could have preserved a steamship like the British, Swiss, Kiwis or Dutch, but shure they were still on the go, why would we bother...it's not a monument (sic.) of note.

beauf

Its only taken 31 posts to find out what's the significance of it.

Jawgap

gobnaitolunacy wrote: »

It's one of the last if not the last vessels of riveted construction, built in Dublin and the last remaining railway owned seagoing vessel on the island of Ireland, but I can't imagine that means anything to you. If people were on the ball in the 1960s we could have preserved a steamship like the British, Swiss, Kiwis or Dutch, but shure they were still on the go, why would we bother...it's not a monument (sic.) of note.

That sounds like a good starting point to build a case for saving her - would a stronger case not be made if she was moved 'home,' - as in moved to the West where no doubt those who she served would have a greater affinity for her than Dublin would?

Judgement Day

beauf wrote: »

Its only taken 31 posts to find out what's the significance of it.

Do we take it then that we have your approval to proceed with attempts to save it? :rolleyes:

Reekwind

gobnaitolunacy wrote: »

It's one of the last if not the last vessels of riveted construction, built in Dublin and the last remaining railway owned seagoing vessel on the island of Ireland, but I can't imagine that means anything to you.

If this is how people campaign for funding for conservation (only admitting begrudgingly that the ship might have some significance after all) then it's no wonder that they struggle to attract interest. But thank you for lowering yourself to providing a reason as to why this might be a candidate for preservation

Judgement Day

Reekwind wrote: »

If this is how people campaign for funding for conservation (only admitting begrudgingly that the ship might have some significance after all) then it's no wonder that they struggle to attract interest. But thank you for lowering yourself to providing a reason as to why this might be a candidate for preservation

People are interested in preserving all sorts of things but the ordinary Joe Soap has little say in these matters. Those that could/should do something, and have their hands on the levers of power, couldn't care less about anything once they get their despicable snouts in the trough - try reading "Animal Farm".

beauf

Judgement Day wrote: »

Do we take it then that we have your approval to proceed with attempts to save it? :rolleyes:

No

Reekwind wrote: »

If this is how people campaign for funding for conservation (only admitting begrudgingly that the ship might have some significance after all) then it's no wonder that they struggle to attract interest. But thank you for lowering yourself to providing a reason as to why this might be a candidate for preservation

+1

Its like a negativity and sarcasm campaign. Good luck with that. Talk about biting the hand that feeds you. In terms of construction very similar to M.V. Cill Airne. Do we need another one? What are the visitor.customers numbers like on the M.V. Cill Airne.

roadsmart

Local taximan in Kenmare is changing his cab, it's working life is over. This cab has faithfully carried many to surrounding towns and villages at all hours in all weathers over it's career. Surely this is worth preserving?��

gobnaitolunacy

roadsmart wrote: »

Local taximan in Kenmare is changing his cab, it's working life is over. This cab has faithfully carried many to surrounding towns and villages at all hours in all weathers over it's career. Surely this is worth preserving?��

Yeah sure, why not?:rolleyes:

roadsmart

gobnaitolunacy wrote: »

Yeah sure, why not?:rolleyes:

Ah mebbe it's just me, but I really can't see the difference between an old ferry and an old taxi.

Judgement Day

roadsmart wrote: »

Local taximan in Kenmare is changing his cab, it's working life is over. This cab has faithfully carried many to surrounding towns and villages at all hours in all weathers over it's career. Surely this is worth preserving?��

Is that the best you can do? Why do you feel obliged to post such rubbish in this thread, indeed why do you even bother reading a thread when you clearly have no interest in the subject being discussed?

Judgement Day

beauf wrote: »

No



+1

Its like a negativity and sarcasm campaign. Good luck with that. Talk about biting the hand that feeds you. In terms of construction very similar to M.V. Cill Airne. Do we need another one? What are the visitor.customers numbers like on the M.V. Cill Airne.

Oh dear, were you just about to put your hand in your pocket? :rolleyes:

roadsmart

Judgement Day wrote: »

Is that the best you can do? Why do you feel obliged to post such rubbish in this thread, indeed why do you even bother reading a thread when you clearly have no interest in the subject being discussed?

Oooh, touchy. I wasn't aware i was entered in a competition. I would have as much interest as the next man in the preservation of our heritage, but there are sensible limits, and I consider an old rustbucket of a ferry to be outside them. That is of course my opinion, which I'm entitled to hold. I certainly won't get upset over yours, no matter how trivial and ridiculous I think it is.

FunLover18

I would agree that we could do with a maritime museum of sort but to start off with an Aran Island ferry? Surely we can (and yes, should) do better. Would anyone posting here go to the UK to see an Isle of Wight ferry from the 50s?

Judgement Day

FunLover18 wrote: »

I would agree that we could do with a maritime museum of sort but to start off with an Aran Island ferry? Surely we can (and yes, should) do better. Would anyone posting here go to the UK to see an Isle of Wight ferry from the 50s?

So, what do you suggest, and I think that you're missing the point, almost everything has already been scrapped and a start has to be made somewhere.

FunLover18

Judgement Day wrote: »

So, what do you suggest, and I think that you're missing the point, almost everything has already been scrapped and a start has to be made somewhere.

Soemthing like the Sunbeam in Kerry would be of more interest to me, it's older, and it has some a story. I don't think it's Irish but I think it's more interesting than a ferry. Last I heard it was being reburied at see which seems daft to me. I don't know much about Ireland's maritime history but I find it hard to believe we can't do better than a ferry. I'm all for having a maritime museum/historical archive but not just for the sake of it which is what this feels like.

Judgement Day

Currently there are four vessels in the Dublin Port area which combined would provide the nucleus of an interesting Maritime Collection: The "Naomh Eanna" ferry and the adjacent RNLI lifeboat "Mary Stanford"; north of the Liffey is the famine ship replica "Jeanie Johnston" and the last remaining lightship "Kittiwake". Quite a representative group - throw in some retired naval service vessel(s) and presto!

beauf

Judgement Day wrote: »

Oh dear, were you just about to put your hand in your pocket? :rolleyes:

Thus far thats exactly what you were suggesting, paying for this rust bucket out of everyones pocket.

The justification that its an Irish made riveted ship, is kinda nullified by the fact there already is one.

wo passenger liner tenders were commissioned by the Irish Government on July 12, 1961 - the M.V. Blarna and its exact replica or sister ship, the M.V. Cill Airne....The sisters were built in the Liffey Dockyard in Dublin and were the very last of the riveted ships to be built in Europe. Rivetting was being replaced by electric arc welding in the 1930s but the incredible production of the Liberty ships during the war sealed the fate of rivetting forever. Research has indicated that the decision to rivet the two sisters was a political one, designed to ensure employment of the last of the rivetting crews in the Liffey Dock. So the T.S.M.V. Cill Airne has a European industrial significance, as well as a social connection to Dublin.

I'm not clear on how industrial significance, construction, culture etc. is communicated by turning it onto a restaurant.

Jawgap

roadsmart wrote: »

Local taximan in Kenmare is changing his cab, it's working life is over. This cab has faithfully carried many to surrounding towns and villages at all hours in all weathers over it's career. Surely this is worth preserving?��

Did he ever carry anyone famous in it? Or did anyone famous ever reminisce about being carried in it?

........I've a couple of vintage bikes I bought and restored as a pet project - I wonder if I can get the public purse to pay for the work I did. One of the bikes is quite famous - it looks like one that Sean Kelly used to ride.

roadsmart

Jawgap wrote: »

Did he ever carry anyone famous in it? Or did anyone famous ever reminisce about being carried in it?

........I've a couple of vintage bikes I bought and restored as a pet project - I wonder if I can get the public purse to pay for the work I did. One of the bikes is quite famous - it looks like one that Sean Kelly used to ride.

Bejayziss, I think one of the Healy rays got sick near it one night.

Jawgap

roadsmart wrote: »

Bejayziss, I think one of the Healy rays got sick near it one night.

Not good enough......maybe if they left one of their caps on the back seat we could do something.

.....if that pool of puke is still there maybe we could do something with that? Any reports of miracles, unexplained cures etc from people who smelled it?