People's opinions on races leading up to a marathon

TRR

^^^^ woodchopper that is post of the year for so many reasons. The man know his athletics and his soaps. Respect

T runner

From my own experience, i'm not a fan of the half 6 weeks out. When I tried this route I found it cut a two week hole in my specific phase. I wouldn't repeat that, unless power endurance was underdeveloped in which case the benefits might outweigh the cons. I think the benefits from a half marathon 8 weeks out for example should easily be held till race day.

If the schedule was lacking in many specific sessions, and involving easy long runs and shorter tempo only, then a HM six weeks out would be of benefit as power endurance would be underdeveloped in this case.

For many marathoners not at elite or sub elite level, a good position might be as a target at the end of a LT/fundamental/(aerobic) power phase. The half would act as a powerful stimulus for the preceding phase of training, and also as a great start to extending (aerobic) power endurance. Maybe 10-12 weeks out.


Interesting post by Woodchopper. IMO He is correct in that for the specific phase big days are big and small days are small. However, this does contradict his "rule of thumb" suggestion of training through the half and racing it "all out" at 102-104% effort.

Id also disagree with the implication that this lack of rest is the major contributor to the inability to run a half to potential in a proper marathon build up. HM training involves optimising LT, Marathon training involves optimising AT. You cant be optimized in both at the same time, simple as that. If you're in proper marathon training you cant run a HM to full potential as LT is not where it needs to be, irrespective of rest.

If you're going to run the HM 6 weeks out anyway, id consider Larry's suggestions.

However, If you want to get the benefits from the HM but are wary of the recovery you could try 50% of the race at PMP and then the remainder as a progression to HM pace. That will get you the strength endurance you're after.
Would work well in a 2 lap race like Bohermeen. You'd have a few rabbits ahead to run down the second half. Smaller recovery problem.

Ive a feeling you want to race it though.
, and you value the benefit. If you do, rest up and race it. Whatever you do don't do it while fatigued from not resting in the days before. (If so you might as well do it at MP pace to practice it while fatigued, the way Larry suggested)

The two best marathon runners in my club usually run a 10k or 8k 2 weeks out. They don't do it for the bucks.
The effort id run would be controlled, fast but comfortable. Something like 45-60s slower than all out pace would do the job, controlled to the line.

woodchopper

T runner wrote: »

Interesting post by Woodchopper. IMO He is correct in that for the specific phase big days are big and small days are small. However, this does contradict his "rule of thumb" suggestion of training through the half and racing it "all out" at 102-104% effort.

.

No it does not contradict what I said. Big days are big and small days are small. In the lead up to a peak half marathon athletes generally do No Big Workouts in the week leading up to the race.

In a Marathon Specific period the athlete may do a hard workout on the Tuesday or Wednesday( i.e the big day) and then take three or four lower mileage days (small days). Yet, there is still fatigue in the legs from the big day which makes running a PB unlikely unless it is soft pb. Since the pace may be slightly off due to a lack of a Taper the pace of the HM is generally in the region of 103-105% of marathon pace. ( For a 6 minute Marathon Pace this equates to roughly 12- 15 seconds per mile i.e 5.45)

With regards to a lack of LT training causing the slower times there is a fault with that theory. The HM is taking place roughly 6 weeks out from the marathon. A marathon specific phase usually lasts 8-9 weeks. Therefore, the athlete is only out of Aerobic Power training 2-3 weeks. This is not enough to lose your LT levels. If it was 2-3 weeks out from the Big day then yes the dominance of AT training over LT could explain the non PB performance.

ger664

So I ran my final tune-up race today. 5 miles and a new PB (never ran this distance before) but only 15 seconds quicker then my 5 mile split in Dungarven 2 weeks earlier. Clearly I didn't run to my potential but I did run it as hard as I could. Its not my goal race or even close to the distance of my goal race so the outcome was never going to be anything other then mediocre. Its was ran coming off the last high mileage week of the program and it will serve its purpose tomorrow when I run 15-16 miles easy on sore legs. I don't think you will ever run to your true potential in a Tune-Up Race in the middle/end of a marathon training program. If you do you are probably doing something wrong but I do believe that they should be ran as hard as you can run them.

T runner

woodchopper wrote: »

.......Yet, there is still fatigue in the legs from the big day which makes running a PB unlikely unless it is soft pb. .....
With regards to a lack of LT training causing the slower times there is a fault with that theory. The HM is taking place roughly 6 weeks out from the marathon. A marathon specific phase usually lasts 8-9 weeks. Therefore, the athlete is only out of Aerobic Power training 2-3 weeks. This is not enough to lose your LT levels. If it was 2-3 weeks out from the Big day then yes the dominance of AT training over LT could explain the non PB performance.

A few points:

1. 8 weeks is very short for a proper specific stage. It would be 10 weeks more often and often 12.

2. To imply that the fundamental stage is generic between marathon and HM is wrong. Marathon running is basically holding the fastest sustainable pacefor 26.2 miles . In the fundamental phase both aerobic power (the fast pace bit: training of up to 110% race pace) and Resistance (the sustainable for 26.2 bit) are developed. Resistance training for the M can involve

-Progression runs of 90 mins from 85-100% MP (AT) (our club does this one),
-AT progression runs from 95-105% MP for 1 hr,
-long runs of up to 2hrs 45 (80% MP), before
-long runs with AT elements to prepare for the heavy (specific) resistance work in the specific phase.

I.E. In a marathon oriented fundamental phase: Power (LT) is developed and begins to be extended, while AT is developed on the Resistant side.

The Resistance training for HM likewise becomes more focused on 13.1.miles and LT as it progresses. I.E. LT is developed from both the aerobic power side and the resistance side

4. If you are in the midst of a proper marathon build up then you should not be within a minute of HM PB shape 6 weeks from the big one. You cant be as your fundamental resistance work has been too focused on AT and long distance, and you have also between 2-6 weeks of specific marathon training completed.

5. If you are in HM PB potential shape 6 weeks from your marathon, start downgrading your predicted marathon time. You're in poor shape. You're AT is underdeveloped and you don't have the resistance ground work done to prepare you for long hard sessions that will prepare you to run the distance at the pace you want.


Back to how to approach the HM: If you're Specific marathon resistance is good (youre confident your body is trained to run hard for the whole race): racing the HM might be desirable.

If you're resistance is poor: Using the HM as part of resistance based session (e.g as PMP section of a long run) might be the way to go.

(Maybewhat Ecoli alluded to?)


If you're somewhere in between then other variables may decide.

woodchopper

T- Runner, 12 weeks is too long for amateur athletes to be in a specific marathon phase. They will get stale. Perhaps if you actually coached a marathoner you may come to realize this.

PS: All what you have said BAR THE ABOVE is in many ways similiar to my philosophy so why do you need to try and put words in my mouth?. I never said the Aerobic Power/Resistance phase is the same as the marathon specific phase. You seem to be looking for an argument for arguments sake!

All the best,
Woodchopper

drquirky

T runner wrote: »

1. 8 weeks is very short for a proper specific stage. It would be 10 weeks more often and often 12.

Not according to Joe Rubio :

To race a marathon at your best, you really have no choice but to peak for it. I've found that marathon prep works best when kept at roughly eight weeks followed by a two-to three-week taper. Sergio Reyes' prep for his national championship win last fall was eight weeks. In the 2004 Olympic marathon trials, our top three finishers from our local training group finished 11th, 13th and 21st. Two ran PRs. Notable was Cori Mooney, who finished 13th and ran an 8:00-plus minute PR on this type of prep. In my prime competitive days, I would run my best races two months after starting my marathon training and the performances would plateau after that for another four to eight weeks before they started to suffer.

T runner

drquirky wrote: »

Not according to Joe Rubio

To race a marathon at your best, you really have no choice but to peak for it. I've found that marathon prep works best when kept at roughly eight weeks followed by a two-to three-week taper.:

I'm with Rubio!

8 weeks prep + 2-3 week taper = 10-11 weeks marathon specific phase. I suggested 10-12 weeks.

"The HM is taking place roughly 6 weeks out from the marathon. A marathon specific phase usually lasts 8-9 weeks. Therefore, the athlete is only out of Aerobic Power training 2-3 weeks." Woodchopper.

That's an 8-9 week phase and only 5-6 weeks prep given a 2-3 weeks taper (the way Rubio reckons it). I thought that preparation short.

One size doesn't fit all of-course, but id disagree with the idea that its "usually" 8-9 weeks (5-6 weeks prep).

Whatever length the specific phase if you're potentially in peak HM condition 6 weeks from marathon day: you've probably gone wrong.

woodchopper wrote: »

PS: All what you have said BAR THE ABOVE is in many ways similiar to my philosophy so why do you need to try and put words in my mouth?. I never said the Aerobic Power/Resistance phase is the same as the marathon specific phase.

You need to read the post again Woodchopper.

I said that the Aerobic Power/Resistance phase (Fundamental phase) of a marathon differed to the Fundamental phase of a Half marathon[/I]. The Resistance training of the marathon during this phase has AT and long runs as a primary focus. The fundamental phase of a Half has LT as a focus on both sides (Aerobic Power/Resistance).

For this reason, if you are in potential PB HM shape 6 weeks out from a goal marathon, then the only conclusion is that your fundamental phase was H.Marathon oriented and NOT Marathon orientated and you are in BAD shape for your marathon.

Note* It is important to state the above. IF people believe they are potentially in peak HM condition 6 weeks from a marathon, they are more likely to race one: which ultimately may hurt their marathon ambitions. If they are ACTUALLY in peak HM condition then, their chances are hurt already.

I'm basing this on someone with times < 2:50 . If the target time gets longer, the benefits of racing the HM start to outweigh the drawbacks.

woodchopper wrote: »

Perhaps if you actually coached a marathoner you may come to realize this.
....You seem to be looking for an argument for arguments sake!

Woodchopper. I'm not a coach, but still entitled to my opinion... and being a coach doesn't automatically make your point right. Lets focus on the points being made rather than the person making them.

theboyblunder

Marathon training.

There is actually no one size fits all when it comes to marathon training. In fact Claudiio Berdalli got it horribly wrong with Stanley Biwott when he had him run 10 by 1km at 2.45 pace (last rep 2.37) one week before London. Biwott if you remember blew up over the last 5-6k

I would advice against them as they tend to mess up your abiliy to burn fuel at a slower rate hence the mistake by biwott



Then again dont feed the Trolls.

You cant say that can you? I dont know the particulars, but saying that a lad ran a hard workout a week before and that is why he blew up in the last 5k of the marathon is crazy. He might have had a mild infection, he might have not eaten properly, he might have judged pacing incorrectly or a load of other things (including maybe the workout). I reckon you know a lot about coaching, but if you want to convince people on here then show us a study involving many athletes investigating the effects of hard workouts in the weeks leading up to the marathon (id bet theyve been done)

Not saying you are wrong, but if you write with authority then you should show real evidence imo. Just saying youre a coach isnt enough

T runner

theboyblunder wrote: »

You cant say that can you? I dont know the particulars, but saying that a lad ran a hard workout a week before and that is why he blew up in the last 5k of the marathon is crazy. He might have had a mild infection, he might have not eaten properly, he might have judged pacing incorrectly or a load of other things (including maybe the workout). I reckon you know a lot about coaching, but if you want to convince people on here then show us a study involving many athletes investigating the effects of hard workouts in the weeks leading up to the marathon (id bet theyve been done)

Not saying you are wrong, but if you write with authority then you should show real evidence imo. Just saying youre a coach isnt enough

Here's a race report



As you say, there were other factors at work:

"The opening splits were mind-blowing. A 4:28 third mile brought them through 5k in 14:26. They hit 10 miles in 46:56. They then split a crazy 14:30 from 20k to 25k (that’s 2:02:21 marathon pace) and in the midst of that a lead pack of 8 racers hit halfway on world record pace at 61:34."
.."At 30k (1:27:49), the runners were still on 2:03:30 pace and the lead pack was down to four men – ........London course record holder Emmanuel Mutai and 2:05:12 man Stanley Biwott".

In mile 21.."Biwott, who has twice lost marathons in sprint finishes in his career .......re-injected some pace into the race and dropped down to 4:43 and grabbed the lead as Abshero and Mutai gave chase."

He died in the 23rd mile. Mutai took over but also died being caught by Kedebe who came from no-where to win. Kedebe the wily fox, opted out of the crazy pace early at 25k, and ran as even as he could to the line.

Kebede ran a first half of 61:34 and a second half of 64:30 and yet still won going away.

"The course record holders at all five of the long time majors were here, plus the Olympic champ, plus the Dubai record holder"

The session:

2:45 reps is just under HM race pace for a 2:04 marathon . The last rep was 2:37 which is 10k race pace.
My guess (and only a guess) is that they expected a fast start (correctly) and the session was to cover that. That session intensity shouldn't have scupperred Biwotts chances. Biwott may have discussed going after mile 20 with his coach if feeling good. But the plan would have been altered if the 61 min first half was known in advance. Biwott maybe fearing a sprint finish, and not realizing that glycogen depletion was the common opponent, went anyway.
Clearly, the pace was unsustainable. In the end it was a day for thinking on your feet and the most experienced athlete won. Kedebe knew how full his tank was at 25k, adjusted accordingly and used his remaining fuel most economically. Biwott probably lost due to inexperience rather than the HM paced kilometer session. But he had good company! (You can see the list of casualties above. )

woodchopper

T runner wrote: »

I'm with Rubio!


One size doesn't fit all of-course, but id disagree with the idea that its "usually" 8-9 weeks (5-6 weeks prep).



You need to read the post again Woodchopper.

I said that the Aerobic Power/Resistance phase (Fundamental phase) of a marathon differed to the Fundamental phase of a Half marathon[/I]. The Resistance training of the marathon during this phase has AT and long runs as a primary focus. The fundamental phase of a Half has LT as a focus on both sides (Aerobic Power/Resistance).


Woodchopper. I'm not a coach, but still entitled to my opinion... and being a coach doesn't automatically make your point right. Lets focus on the points being made rather than the person making them.

Where to we start!

Point 1 : Once again your putting words in my mouth!. Your implying that that I advocate a 5 week specific period and a 3-4 week taper!. Of course five weeks is a little short! I advocate a 7-10 day taper so it works out about 7-7 and a half weeks of specific training.

Point 2: Yes I misread the original point, I apologize. But T-Runner I never even brought up the differences between the fundamental period of a Half marathon and a full marathon. Thats your point. Why do you need to say that I said that both periods are generic? This is where I said you seem to be looking for an argument for arguments sake!


Point 3: Of course your entitled to your opinion. Nobody said you werent. But when you twist things by trying to put virtual flaws into points I never made its hard to take serious.

Lets map it out. You believe in a 9 week specific phase and a 3 week taper.

I believe in a 7 and a half week specific phase and a 10 day taper. Although if late starting the specific phase its more like a 6 weeks, 4-5 day specific phase and a 8 day taper.

In your philosophy a half marathon 6 weeks out from a marathon is 6 weeks removed from an aerobic power phase and as such the concentration of AT training means a pb in a half marathon is impossible. If you do run a PB it is a result of improper marathon training and an over reliance on LT training. The result will be hitting the wall at 30-35km due to inefficient fuel burning capacity.

In my marathon training I believe 12 weeks is to long for an amatuer. So I propose an 8-9 week specific phase. In this scenario an athlete is only 2- 2 and a half weeks removed from an aerobic power phase so in theory this is not long enough to limit LT ability in a Half marathon race.

The reason the athlete may noy run a PB is due to the fact that since we are in a race against time the athlete does not have the luxery of lying on their backside for the week leading into the half. They do a Marathon Specific workout on the Tuesday/Wednesday, recover for the next 3-4 days and then race the half. Since there is fatigue the athlete rarely runs a PB unless in is a soft one. The half has the result of elevating training and fitness for the next 4 and a half-5 weeks of specific marathon workouts.

Our fundamental period before the marathon may be the same but perhaps you could outline your philosophy in terms of workouts/ time period of this phase? I will then share mine.

Regards,
Woodchopper

woodchopper

Sorry Boy Blunder and T-Runner it was a typo! I meant New York. Claudio even admitted to me that Stanley wont do that workout again 6 days out from a marathon. Apologies T-Runner I know you put a lot of effort trying to disprove my theory! By the way other factors led to Stanley's demise in London

T runner

woodchopper wrote: »

Point 2: Yes I misread the original point, I apologize. But T-Runner I never even brought up the differences between the fundamental period of a Half marathon and a full marathon. Thats your point. Why do you need to say that I said that both periods are generic? This is where I said you seem to be looking for an argument for arguments sake!

Ah here. For the THIRD time. It is the DIFFERENCE between these fundamental phases that should make a potential best HM PB six weeks out impossible. AT work for the marathon DOES NOT START at the marathon specific stage it starts at the fundamental stage a lot earlier.
If you are in TOP HM shape 6 weeks out, then you have completed a HALF MARATHON FUNDAMENTAL STAGE. You have no marathon RESISTANCE work (AT focused) completed. Instead you have concentrated on LT based (HM)RESISTANCE work in the fundamental phase. This holds true REGARDLESS of the Length of the marathon specific period.

Please note: Fundamental stage is an AEROBIC POWER stage AND a RESISTANCE stage. Do you understand this?

Lets map it out. You believe in a 9 week specific phase and a 3 week taper.

No, I simply DISAGREE with your statement that the marathon specific phase is "usually 8-9 weeks", it could be 10, 12, heck it could be 6 weeks!

In your philosophy a half marathon 6 weeks out from a marathon is 6 weeks removed from an aerobic power phase and as such the concentration of AT training means a pb in a half marathon is impossible.

That is called a straw-man argument woodchopper. I wont entertain it. Please answer the arguments I have actually made.

In my marathon training I believe 12 weeks is to long for an amatuer. So I propose an 8-9 week specific phase. In this scenario an athlete is only 2- 2 and a half weeks removed from an aerobic power phase so in theory this is not long enough to limit LT ability in a Half marathon race.

That would hold true ONLY if they have completed a HALF MARATHON type Fundamental phase. The resistance type runs in a MARATHON type fundamental phase concentrates on AEROBIC THRESHOLD and LONG RUNS to the DETRIMENT of resistant runs focusing on LACTIC THRESHOLD.


IF your in half marathon shape 6 weeks out. Your AP and Resistance sessions in the fundamental phase has a HM as focus.
i.e you have completed a half marathon fundamental phase.

The reason the athlete may noy run a PB is due to the fact that since we are in a race against time the athlete does not have the luxery of lying on their backside for the week leading into the half.

A question Woodchopper. Do you have the same Fundamental phase for the Half as for the Marathon?

If you don't then: How is it possible to be in peak HM shape after a Marathon fundamental phase?

Our fundamental period before the marathon may be the same

Its not. I will be doing a MARATHON fundamental phase. If Your athletes are in peak HM shape 6 weeks from the marathon then logic dictates that you have done a HALF MARATHON fundamental phase.

T runner

woodchopper wrote: »

Sorry Boy Blunder and T-Runner it was a typo! I meant New York. Claudio even admitted to me that Stanley wont do that workout again 6 days out from a marathon. Apologies T-Runner I know you put a lot of effort trying to disprove my theory! By the way other factors led to Stanley's demise in London

Not only are you a coach but you are on first name basis with Berdalli and Biwott! Your half marathon training plan for the marathon just gets more and more convincing..............

woodchopper

T runner wrote: »

Not only are you a coach but you are on first name basis with Berdalli and Biwott! Your half marathon training plan for the marathon just gets more and more convincing..............

Ah Sweet T you have made a fatal mistake AGAIN. I never said you have to have a specific half marathon phase before a marathon phase to run close to your Half Marathon potential six weeks out from a marathon did I?

You see many athletes when they get into competition can get very close to their PBs just by competing and toughing it out without neccesarily running perfect LT sessions. You see thats the thing about Real coaching as opposed to Virtual coaching. Every athlete is different. A coach does not say Oh look at what Canova said to his athlete. He/She tells them to compete well in the half. If I allowed them to taper for a week before the half six weeks out from the marathon, they would run close to their pb because, they compete.

But since they have the marathon as their priority I do not let them taper fully. Sorry, if I dont reply back until later tonight as I have to go and coach some athletes this evening, cant be at the computer all evening!

Yours In coaching,
Woodchopper.

PS: You stated that it is impossible to run a pb in the half six weeks out of the marathon with specific marathon training. Yet you think Stanley Biwott's half marathon pace is 58 minutes flat one week outside a marathon! You said that 2.45 is roughly his half marathon pace and that 2.37 was his 10km pace. That would put Stanley's 10km pace at 26.04 one week out from a marathon!. Stanley would need 6 months specific training to run those times for 5k never mind 10k. If stanley's Half marathon pace is 2.45 one week out from a marathon then by your calculations T Runner, Stanley could run something around 56 minutes!

Bit of a contradiction in your philosophy there T.

T runner

woodchopper wrote: »

Ah Sweet T you have made a fatal mistake AGAIN. I never said you have to have a specific half marathon phase before a marathon phase to run close to your Half Marathon potential six weeks out from a marathon did I?

No, what you said was that with PROPER marathon training the only reason a marathoner cant run a PB in the half 6 weeks out was due to fatigue.

*I note that you have downgraded their forecast from Half Marathon PB potential to close to Half Marathon PB potential. You must be tired after shifting those goalposts?
And Close? How close?

You see many athletes when they get into competition can get very close to their PBs just by competing and toughing it out without neccesarily running perfect LT sessions. You see thats the thing about Real coaching as opposed to Virtual coaching. Every athlete is different. A coach does not say Oh look at what Canova said to his athlete. He/She tells them to compete well in the half.

So to get them to perform to peak (sorry close to peak!) half marathon potential you tell them to compete!!!!! and this works because youre a real coach!!!!

The athletics version of Steve Staunton's "i'm the gaffer!" perhaps?

*I note that you are describing AT based resistance sessions in the marathon Fundamental stage as not "perfect LT sessions". That's correct, in fact they are not LT sessions AT ALL.

If I allowed them to taper for a week before the half six weeks out from the marathon, they would run close to their pb because, they compete.

That's it? Woodie says compete! The preceding training is irrelevant? Why coach at all? Why not have this fella do the schedules for you?

PS: ...... You said that 2.45 is roughly his half marathon pace.....
Bit of a contradiction in your philosophy there T.

Another strawman Woodchopper? Here's what I actually said.

T runner wrote: »

2:45 reps is just under HM race pace .....

Give Stanley and Claudio my regards. Do you mind me asking what grade you got in your coaching exams? Same as the young lad in the picture perhaps?

ecoli

Mod: last warning attack the post not the poster, healthy criticism is fine but if you continue with the petty squabbling I will start handing out infractions

AuldManKing

TRR wrote: »

Having said that, 2 out of my 3 fastest marathons had little or no build up races so this has me thinking!

I know everyone is different but just interested to hear opinions.

its a great debate (well, the bits I understand) and an entertaining side bar going on.

I am was doing Bohermeen in early March and have a Marathon on April 6th.
Basic reason for doing the half is 'thats what people do' / 'its a good measure of where you are' / 'everyone else is doing it who has a spring marathon'.......

So this thread is very timely for me.

Right now, I'm siding with not doing Bohermeen as its 5 weeks before the Manchester Marathon.
Impact on training may be too much and the potential for injury is high (if I try to chase the training).

But as an older 'newer runner' I like what was said earlier about the fitness boost gained and also the psychological boost.

Decisions.....Decisions


..........................Carry on.

Gavlor

AuldManKing wrote: »

its a great debate (well, the bits I understand) and an entertaining side bar going on.

I am was doing Bohermeen in early March and have a Marathon on April 6th.
Basic reason for doing the half is 'thats what people do' / 'its a good measure of where you are' / 'everyone else is doing it who has a spring marathon'.......

So this thread is very timely for me.

Right now, I'm siding with not doing Bohermeen as its 5 weeks before the Manchester Marathon.
Impact on training may be too much and the potential for injury is high (if I try to chase the training).

But as an older 'newer runner' I like what was said earlier about the fitness boost gained and also the psychological boost.

Decisions.....Decisions


..........................Carry on.

My tuppence worth is that a shorter distance would suit you better. Any 5 milers around that time?

TRR

AuldManKing wrote: »

Right now, I'm siding with not doing Bohermeen as its 5 weeks before the Manchester Marathon.
Impact on training may be too much and the potential for injury is high (if I try to chase the training).

But as an older 'newer runner' I like what was said earlier about the fitness boost gained and also the psychological boost.

This is going to seem ironic as I don't know what to do 100% myself but for you I'd skip the half. Just because of your injury issues in the past and you're well on track as you've got some solid sessions in. Anyone who read my log will know I don't do many sessions. Not because I don't think they are a good idea but because physically they can kill me. Injury wise and also physically run me into the ground. So for me I'll get a major kick back fitness from the half so long as I don't overdo it. It's like a mega session for me and looking at how I initially set up my programme I will have enough time to rest before and after it so it's back on the agenda for me. But as has been aluded to above (in a very complex way) every runner is different and you've got to do what is right for you at that stage in your training regardless of what the accepted wisdom is!

Gavlor wrote: »

My tuppence worth is that a shorter distance would suit you better. Any 5 milers around that time?

There is a 10k in Bohermeen the same day too!

Finnt

AuldManKing wrote: »

its a great debate (well, the bits I understand) and an entertaining side bar going on.

.

Ha ha I was thinking the same!
What I was thinking was that for the average runner following a "get me around" plan a half marathon 6-8 weeks out would give a good indication of current fitness and an indication of what to aim for in the full marathon?

AuldManKing

Finnt wrote: »

Ha ha I was thinking the same!
What I was thinking was that for the average runner following a "get me around" plan a half marathon 6-8 weeks out would give a good indication of current fitness and an indication of what to aim for in the full marathon?

I'd agree with that and 8 weeks may be better than 6.

sawdoubters

I would not race

corny

AuldManKing wrote: »

its a great debate (well, the bits I understand) and an entertaining side bar going on.

I am was doing Bohermeen in early March and have a Marathon on April 6th.
Basic reason for doing the half is 'thats what people do' / 'its a good measure of where you are' / 'everyone else is doing it who has a spring marathon'.......

So this thread is very timely for me.

Right now, I'm siding with not doing Bohermeen as its 5 weeks before the Manchester Marathon.
Impact on training may be too much and the potential for injury is high (if I try to chase the training).

But as an older 'newer runner' I like what was said earlier about the fitness boost gained and also the psychological boost.

Decisions.....Decisions


..........................Carry on.

Was in the exact same position last year. Ran Bohermeen all out. Very happy with the race, thought i was all set for the marathon, 3 days later i ran a couple of miles and for 6 months didn't run again with injury.

The conventional wisdom might make sense in the future when (IF) i'm stronger and wiser but atm its an unnecessary risk for me. Give it a miss.

BeepBeep67

@AMK - difficult decision, we were discussing LSR's with MP segments on another thread, would you be disciplined to use the HM as an MP session or a progression run?
Nice to do this with company and have it 'catered' so you can dry run your race day prep.

I'll be running the HM that day, but not full out (I've an extra week to my Marathon also), I've an 'easy' Masters PB I can probably bag without interrupting my training.

The main thing is keeping the main thing, the main thing

menoscemo

BeepBeep67 wrote: »

@AMK - difficult decision, we were discussing LSR's with MP segments on another thread, would you be disciplined to use the HM as an MP session or a progression run?
Nice to do this with company and have it 'catered' so you can dry run your race day prep.

I'll be running the HM that day, but not full out (I've an extra week to my Marathon also), I've an 'easy' Masters PB I can probably bag without interrupting my training.

The main thing is keeping the main thing, the main thing

Yes indeed. I had it in my head that racing the Bohermeen half 6 weeks out from London was a super idea; but this thread has been an eye opener.
If I were to race Bohermeen flat out I would need an easy week before and after the race....
Like TRR, when I think back, some of my best marathons have been without a tune up race. Tune up races in the past have also generally only served to fill my head full of doubts so I think I will do Bohermeen as 13.1 miles at MP with 7-8 warm up and cool down miles either side. That way it will be a great workout specific to my goal. I reckon that coming at the back end of a hard weeks training (and with a 5-6 mile warmup) how I feel at the end of a HM @ PMP should replicate pretty accurately how I will be feeling at mile 18-19 in London.

I definitely think doing a HM @ PMP 6 weeks out would serve a much more specific and appropriate stimulus than a 10k race...

dublin runner

Very interesting thread and great to see so many differing opinions. Personally I am running Bohermeen Half as a full out race with the marathon 7 weeks after. Time will tell whether or not this will be beneficial. My marathon training plan is a long one so I think I can afford to have a mini taper and a few days easy running after and not impact on the marathon training too much.

What I will say is that last year I made a mistake in running the Athlone 3/4 @MP (6.50) 3 weeks (I think) out from Dublin. It was my mistake and just bad pacing going out too fast.

I need a mini target within the marathon training. This could just be a lack of confidence i.e must hit 1:xx to prove I can run the marathon in 2:xx

yaboya1

I've 'raced' the HM distance 4 weeks out and ran in a 10k race last weekend. Seville Marathon is on Sunday week. I guess I'm F*%ked! :eek:

menoscemo

yaboya1 wrote: »

I've 'raced' the HM distance 4 weeks out and ran in a 10k race last weekend. Seville Marathon is on Sunday week. I guess I'm F*%ked! :eek:

Don't read this thread :pac:

You'll be grand. You've followed your plan to a tee (apart from the HM), aren't injured and in good form.

statss

just to throw in a nugget from a first timer last year.... I raced Bohermeen 100% flat out (1:35 5 weeks out) & Wicklow half's @ say 95% (1:37 2 weeks out) before the Connemarathon....Don't think it impacted me too badly on the day (3:38)...I wouldn't do it again though