Milking cows

Kevin the sheep

Want to milk in 16 ten years done on dairy farms so know what it's about have 120 acres is it good idea or bad

Markcheese

Kevin the sheep wrote: »

Want to milk in 16 ten years done on dairy farms so know what it's about have 120 acres is it good idea or bad

It must be a bad idea if you have 10 years experience,120 acres and you have to ask on an Internet forum...

Kevin the sheep

Markcheese wrote: »

It must be a bad idea if you have 10 years experience,120 acres and you have to ask on an Internet forum...

What I mean is before I go spending money do people think the ass is gona go out of it my boss is well set up best facility's you could ask for and he says it's gona be fine start up you will make money but it's dif starting out than where he is he spent about half a million on a new parlour last year .have suckers at home at min but noting out of them

farmingmad10

Only thing their is money in. Always was the best & always will be too. If you cut the milk price in the morning their would still be a good return out of cows if you had good access to paddocks & kept costs low as possible on grass. Their isn't a lot of money in beef or sheep when you add it all up. A British friesan cow will knock out 6000 litres over 10 months on less than 1 tonne of meal maybe only 700kg if your growing good grass. You have the milk cheque coming in every month unlike beef for example. Dairy isn't a bad a lifestyle as people make out if you have a decent setup & its an enjoyable lifestyle along with being profitable

Kevin the sheep

Thanks farmingmad10 I don't think is a bad lifestyle lot of work but I enjoy it where I am now work 12 and a half days then one and a half days off so work doesn't frightin me was thinking of jersey cross hear there good on fertility and good bit of milk down side no calf value no cull cow value all bf where I work if I could make decent money (anything more than sucklers) I would go for it

farmingmad10

It's worth doing a business plan on it. Try & get costing off guys you know. Their was costingsIin farmers journal last week of cost of cows for a year. It take around €2000/cow to get into dairy farming. Maybe less if you could do lots of d work yourself. A teagasc adviser once said a charolais cow can buy 2 dairy cows so selling the sucklers would buy you a herd of dairy cows. I think dairying in ireland will be still be good post 2015. Demand is growing all the time & Ireland is able to compete well on the world dairy markets.

Kevin the sheep

I would be doing most of the work myself have my bosses old parlour eight unit for around two grand cows would be on straw bed for one or two winters till I get cubicles in sucklers would go against milkers have a lane full length of farm would use till get roadways in over time my thinking get milk going out the gate and do the rest bit by bit

Timmaay

120acres on the one block? And whereabouts in the country are ya, is it decent enough dry land like?

Kevin the sheep

South Carlow would be 80 acres dry land 40 not bogs but kinda wet put it this way wouldn't be early grazing

farmingmad10

It depends. No harm in investing money at start if it's going to bring a good return on investment. Doing some of the construction work yourself might be a help. My advice is to do a budget on it your costs what money you can afford to borrow etc. Jersey would be a good choice alright. A grass based cow with good solids & fertility.

Timmaay

Kevin the sheep wrote: »

South Carlow would be 80 acres dry land 40 not bogs but kinda wet put it this way wouldn't be early grazing

Thats fine, graze the 80acres 1st, leave the 40 till March. But hmm so all the 1 block? I'll give delavals answer myself, go stock to 3.4cows/ha, contract rear all replacements, that gives you 160cows, say 5500l/yr, in a good year like this, with a 10c/l margin should leave you with 90k of profit. Of course would take afew years to get there!

Kevin the sheep

Wasn't lookin at that high a stocking rate well didn't know I could go that high I was doing figures last week and think first few years more like 4/5 cent per litre I know how to grow a lot of grass that's been drilled into me for the last ten years and that's where the profit is

freedominacup

I'm not trying to put you off as you have a lot going for you. The average spend by new entrants in the first couple of years of the new entrants scheme was just over €150,000. That was before stock sales as far as I remember so if you have a good sized herd of sucklers you know how much you can reduce this figure by.

40 acres of not dry ground in Carlow, so blowing grass out of the ground in a '13, hard/very hard to work in a '12 but no bother cause the rest of the farm is producing away, and in or around average in an '11?

Kevin the sheep

I will have around 140head of stock to sell from calf /cows/heifers/in calf heifers/bulls/bull weanlings so average them at €1000 across the board one again the other I hope my borrowings will be very small by the way what does the13 12 11 stand for?

tomwaterford

Kevin the sheep wrote: »

I will have around 140head of stock to sell from calf /cows/heifers/in calf heifers/bulls/bull weanlings so average them at €1000 across the board one again the other I hope my borrowings will be very small by the way what does the13 12 11 stand for?

2013
2012 and 2011 id say

jaymla627

Timmaay wrote: »

Thats fine, graze the 80acres 1st, leave the 40 till March. But hmm so all the 1 block? I'll give delavals answer myself, go stock to 3.4cows/ha, contract rear all replacements, that gives you 160cows, say 5500l/yr, in a good year like this, with a 10c/l margin should leave you with 90k of profit. Of course would take afew years to get there!

If it was that simple everyone would be at it, if you take say contracting rearing heifers (80) animals a year between incalf/maiden at a cost of 600 a piece a year your talking 48,000, bought in silage your talking probably a 1,000 tons a year to be safe at 30 euro a ton 30,000, meal bill will be around 30,000 grand as-well assuming 700 kg a cow a year at in our around 280 a ton, add in a loan repayments of say 30,000 a year plus say 10,000 grand for casual labor your up to around 150,000 euro our 17 c/l.
Then throw in your veterinary, electricity,machinery,fertilizer, reseeding, lime, A.I and miscellaneous costs which probably add-on a conservative 10 cent litre your talking costs of 27 cent a litre, when/if milk price drops back to around 30 c/l the picture isn't so rosy, then drop in a bitch of a year like 2012 weather wise and your struggling big time.

Kevin the sheep

All them costs seem high but true when you see it that way I don't want to keep 160 dairy cows if I had 80/90 I would be more than happy and keep replacements on farm also cut silage on farm just want to make a living not get rich provide for my wife and newborn son that's all

farmingmad10

If any of you guys can back me up on this. Did jack Kennedy on the journal about 2 weeks ago have an article saying that milk costs last year were 38c/ litre?

Kevin the sheep

That's a lot isn't it won't make any money at that cost

farmingmad10

farmerjack

farmingmad10 wrote: »

If any of you guys can back me up on this. Did jack Kennedy on the journal about 2 weeks ago have an article saying that milk costs last year were 38c/ litre?

Remwmber That figure would have included a strong figure for depreciation

MFdaveIreland

Best of luck whatever you choose, I would say go for it , you have. A very good foundation

Kevin the sheep

Thanks like any big undertaking afraid if things go wrong but can't be worse money than out of the sucklers about 200per cow rather milkin me self than someone else's

farmingmad10

Does anyone know can you upload a photo with your post on this? & if so how?

farmingmad10

Their was labour included in costs both own labour wage plus hired labour

C4d78

Kevin the sheep wrote: »

All them costs seem high but true when you see it that way I don't want to keep 160 dairy cows if I had 80/90 I would be more than happy and keep replacements on farm also cut silage on farm just want to make a living not get rich provide for my wife and newborn son that's all

That's the best and most realistic way of looking at it. Forget about the 3.4lu/ha and look after the 80/90 cows and the replacements as best you can and you'll make a go of it alright.
Going down the route of expenditure on contract rearing and high feed bills and pressure of the entire system@ 3.4 Lu/ha would be madness when your just starting out.
Too many people starving cows just so they can say they've a high stocking rate. (Seen the results of infertility Teagasc got with that)

Kevin the sheep

Ya they must starv them at that stocking rate or spend all there profit on forage if not

farmingmad10

Deepsouthwest

C4d78 wrote: »

That's the best and most realistic way of looking at it. Forget about the 3.4lu/ha and look after the 80/90 cows and the replacements as best you can and you'll make a go of it alright.
Going down the route of expenditure on contract rearing and high feed bills and pressure of the entire system@ 3.4 Lu/ha would be madness when your just starting out.
Too many people starving cows just so they can say they've a high stocking rate. (Seen the results of infertility Teagasc got with that)

Agree with most of this, except maybe the fertility side. There's an awful lot of stress/pressure when ur stocked around 3.4lu/h all year round. You need every inch of the farm doing the business all the time. That's a lot to ask of an experienced farmer, let alone a guy starting out.

farmingmad10

This was it guys. It couldn't be right could it. I may read the article again. They had €30,000 included in it for the farmers own labour as part of the business

farmingmad10

Kevin the sheep wrote: »

Ya they must starv them at that stocking rate or spend all there profit on forage if not

The most profitable dairy farms in this county are the ones milking around 70 cows. No big borrowings & can make good use of family labour.

delaval

farmingmad10 wrote: »

The most profitable dairy farms in this county are the ones milking around 70 cows. No big borrowings & can make good use of family labour.

What are you basing that info on?

farmingmad10

delaval wrote: »

What are you basing that info on?

Basing it on the differences of highly stocked dairy farms for example the guys who were milking 80 cows who increased to 200 cows. Did they make more profit by increasing when you look at the year of 2012 with the bad weather the extra costs involved buying meal to running out of silage & then the bad spring with all the meal bills with no growth? Not to mention the extra labour costs.

farmingmad10

I do think that alot of dairy aren't efficient enough to expand herds further post 2015. Are they going to be able to cope with extreme weather events combined with poor milk prices. Not trying to sound negative the future is bright for dairying but I think alot of guys could become bit more efficient first or else they could find it hard to make money when things get tricky.

Timmaay

farmingmad10 wrote: »

The most profitable dairy farms in this county are the ones milking around 70 cows. No big borrowings & can make good use of family labour.

The most of us have made use of family labour, and it can be a handy way of helping your tax bill, however I think on the whole it should be considered much the same as hired labour. Obviously there are excepts where say a successor is perfectly willing to work for free knowing the farm will be theirown own, but I'd never be banking on family labour, far too many farms I've see unwilling children made to work and this isn't right either.

Timmaay

farmingmad10 wrote: »

I do think that alot of dairy aren't efficient enough to expand herds further post 2015. Are they going to be able to cope with extreme weather events combined with poor milk prices. Not trying to sound negative the future is bright for dairying but I think alot of guys could become bit more efficient first or else they could find it hard to make money when things get tricky.

Simple as is do out your cashflow planner, and have enough of a cash reserve to ride out the bad times, and the very same with fodder! But agreed on the efficiency point, zero point expanding unless you already have items like fertility, grass growth, mortality rates etc all as good as possible, before you consider expansion.

farmingmad10

Timmaay wrote: »

The most of us have made use of family labour, and it can be a handy way of helping your tax bill, however I think on the whole it should be considered much the same as hired labour. Obviously there are excepts where say a successor is perfectly willing to work for free knowing the farm will be theirown own, but I'd never be banking on family labour, far too many farms I've see unwilling children made to work and this isn't right either.

True but meant that they need less labour units aswell. Don't get me wrong if you are growing 12t dry matter grass/ha with 3.4 cows/ha its the way to go if you are efficient farmer who has good management skills. With that sort of stocking rate you would make €1,000/acre net profit

Greengrass1

farmingmad10 wrote: »

True but meant that they need less labour units aswell. Don't get me wrong if you are growing 12t dry matter grass/ha with 3.4 cows/ha its the way to go if you are efficient farmer who has good management skills. With that sort of stocking rate you would make €1,000/acre net profit

12T? I'm aiming for 16.
Long way to go. But god loves a trier

farmingmad10

Timmaay wrote: »

Simple as is do out your cashflow planner, and have enough of a cash reserve to ride out the bad times, and the very same with fodder! But agreed on the efficiency point, zero point expanding unless you already have items like fertility, grass growth, mortality rates etc all as good as possible, before you consider expansion.

Yeah they are the things that will be crucial. Focusing on milk solids tight calving spread cheap grass are the things that will drive profits. Measure grass is a key thing here aswell. It allows me to identify whether I have a surplus or deficit & if I have surplus I can take out paddocks for round bale silage or spread fertiliser if deficit

Kevin the sheep

Ya I see how much the grass measuring helps in work if you don't your only guessing tight calving can be achieved over a few years with culling but won't go nuts for the first few years doh build numbers first but grass is key to profit and have the nut lorry comeing as little as possable

C4d78

Deepsouthwest wrote: »

Agree with most of this, except maybe the fertility side. There's an awful lot of stress/pressure when ur stocked around 3.4lu/h all year round. You need every inch of the farm doing the business all the time. That's a lot to ask of an experienced farmer, let alone a guy starting out.

What part of the fertility side do you disagree with. The proof is out there from Teagasc that when stocked too high and golf ball grazing as a result they had figures of 22-23% empty.
This is in effect starving cows in order to run a high stocking rate. Sure way to run a business into the ground

Timmaay

If I ever run a stocking rate as high as 3.4cows/ha (Which I could well do), then the cows most certainly will not be starved! With good fresh pastures that have no matty butt in them, cows will be happy to graze out a paddock fairly tight. And of course, at the times of grass shortage (which will happen more regularly at 3.4cows/ha), you need to buffer feed them, simple as is. How high of a SR was that teagasc trial anyways, and did they bufferfeed at all???

Greengrass1

Timmaay wrote: »

If I ever run a stocking rate as high as 3.4cows/ha (Which I could well do), then the cows most certainly will not be starved! With good fresh pastures that have no matty butt in them, cows will be happy to graze out a paddock fairly tight. And of course, at the times of grass shortage (which will happen more regularly at 3.4cows/ha), you need to buffer feed them, simple as is. How high of a SR was that teagasc trial anyways, and did they bufferfeed at all???

Plenty of lads at that. Know a lad running at 4.
This lad grew 17.5t of grass 2 yes ago

Gillespy

How much N does it take to grow that much grass?

Greengrass1

Gillespy wrote: »

How much N does it take to grow that much grass?

A good bit. But he has his p and k and lime and organic matter as good as it gets. Them alone grow a lot of grass

milkprofit

Kevin the sheep wrote: »

Wasn't lookin at that high a stocking rate well didn't know I could go that high I was doing figures last week and think first few years more like 4/5 cent per litre I know how to grow a lot of grass that's been drilled into me for the last ten years and that's where the profit is

Do partnership with u boss
Or contract his replacments

Timmaay

Kevin what I'd say is fair enough 3.4 might be wayy off the mark for a beginner, but when your doing thinks like the yard layout, parlour shed size etc, keep in mind that some day you might go that far, and design the yard etc with expansion in mind. This will cost you very little now, but believe me it could save some serious headaches down the line.

kevthegaff

always design sheds parlour for expansion, u never know!

Kevin the sheep

Will be puting parlour in existing shed with plenty of room behind for expansion if ever needed will fill two existing sheds with cubicles and can put in other sheds if need be in time room there if I need it if I decide to get more but I think I could manage 80cows on my own with right set up if I have 120 I need help and that just takes the money from the extra 40 to pay wages and anything above if things get tight they will get tight very quick and cost a lot to feed meal/silage rather be safe with my 80

maxxuumman

Kevin the sheep wrote: »

Will be puting parlour in existing shed with plenty of room behind for expansion if ever needed will fill two existing sheds with cubicles and can put in other sheds if need be in time room there if I need it if I decide to get more but I think I could manage 80cows on my own with right set up if I have 120 I need help and that just takes the money from the extra 40 to pay wages and anything above if things get tight they will get tight very quick and cost a lot to feed meal/silage rather be safe with my 80

Na, with the right setup and cows, you'd handle 150 easily. Get some casual labour for the spring and some weekend relief for the rest of the year. Usesome of the extra money from those 40 cows to set yourself up right

Mr Woulfe

C4d78 wrote: »

That's the best and most realistic way of looking at it. Forget about the 3.4lu/ha and look after the 80/90 cows and the replacements as best you can and you'll make a go of it alright.
Going down the route of expenditure on contract rearing and high feed bills and pressure of the entire system@ 3.4 Lu/ha would be madness when your just starting out.
Too many people starving cows just so they can say they've a high stocking rate. (Seen the results of infertility Teagasc got with that)

Would have to agree with that as was proven in spring 2013.