Childminder to our home - sick days/holidays

dec1892

Hiya,
I´m looking for a child minder to come to my home to mind my two children for 3 days a week. Two questions:

1. What is the norm with regards sick days and holidays for the minder? Is the expectation that I would pay the minder for any sick days and holidays?

2. I´m considering offering €7 per hour cash. Based in Dublin. Is this about a fair rate for minding two children in our home?

Thanks,
dec1892

MouseTail

dec1892 wrote: »

Hiya,
I´m looking for a child minder to come to my home to mind my two children for 3 days a week. Two questions:

1. What is the norm with regards sick days and holidays for the minder? Is the expectation that I would pay the minder for any sick days and holidays?

2. I´m considering offering €7 per hour cash. Based in Dublin. Is this about a fair rate for minding two children in our home?

Thanks,
dec1892

if they come into your home, as opposed to your children going to theirs, they are your employee.

you must pay minimum wage and deduct PRSI and they should have a contract that specifies holidays and sick pay. That's the law.

godtabh

MouseTail wrote: »

if they come into your home, as opposed to your children going to theirs, they are your employee.

you must pay minimum wage and deduct PRSI and they should have a contract that specifies holidays and sick pay. That's the law.

That is incorrect. The can be employed as contract staff I.e. The child minder is responsible for their own tax, sick pay and holidays. They will be self employed

davo10

You must pay a minimum €8.65 per hour and she is entitled to holidays based on time accrued. Whether holidays are paid or not depends as said above on the working arrangement, employee or self employed. Be advised, unless you give her a contract which says she is a contractor, she can assume that she is an employee and you are responsible for her Prsi, etc. Also bare in mind that as an employee she would be entitled to be paid when you and the kids are away on holiday.

Frank Black

OP, we do this.
I won't go into the legalities/tax side of things, because the reality is that this is unlikly to be an issue.
We don't pay CM for holidays/sick days.
We pay her €65 per day for minding 2 kids, the oldest is in primary school and the youngest goes to playschool for 3 hrs a day.
We're gone from 6am to 5.30pm.

davo10

Frank Black wrote: »

OP, we do this.
I won't go into the legalities/tax side of things, because the reality is that this is unlikly to be an issue.
We don't pay CM for holidays/sick days.
We pay her €65 per day for minding 2 kids, the oldest is in primary school and the youngest goes to playschool for 3 hrs a day.
We're gone from 6am to 5.30pm.

€5.65 per hour, Prsi etc not paid, no holiday leave, that's exploitation. If CM applies for benefits in the future or if you have a falling out, have your chequebook at the ready and prepare to take a hit from revenue and CM.

Flippyfloppy

Hi op. You should have a look at rollercoaster.ie there's loads of childminders & parents on there who've gone through the same thing.

Alan Shore

Frank Black wrote: »

OP, we do this.
I won't go into the legalities/tax side of things, because the reality is that this is unlikly to be an issue.

famous last words, when dealing with employees.

Ray Palmer

You don't hire them as employees you hire them as self employed people. They register as a sole trader and liable for all their taxes.

If they chose to work for less then minimum wage that is their concern not yours.

Frank Black

davo10 wrote: »

€5.65 per hour, Prsi etc not paid, no holiday leave, that's exploitation. If CM applies for benefits in the future or if you have a falling out, have your chequebook at the ready and prepare to take a hit from revenue and CM.

Our CM has more disposable income than us - she's more than happy with the situation and is far from being exploited.

Considering she's not declaring her income from the child minding, it's unlikly she's report us to Revenue, but thanks for your concern

BTW your maths is off too.

davo10

Frank Black wrote: »

Our CM has more disposable income than us - she's more than happy with the situation and is far from being exploited.

Considering she's not declaring her income from the child minding, it's unlikly she's report us to Revenue, but thanks for your concern

BTW your maths is off too.

Her disposable income is her business, not yours. Legislation is in place to require employers to pay employees a minimum of €8.65 per hour regardless of what you have decided is a fair rate.

She doesn't have to declare her income, unless you have given her a contract that says she is providing services as a self employed person, you have to register her as an employee and pay her Prsi, USC etc.

All Rosie in the garden now but if you have a falling out which oft happens, or she goes on maternity/sick leave then you'll find out where you stand.

Now 6am to 5:30pm is eleven and a half hours in my book, at €65 per day is that not €5.65 per hour?

Frank Black

davo10 wrote: »

Her disposable income is her business, not yours. Legislation is in place to require employers to pay employees a minimum of €8.65 per hour regardless of what you have decided is a fair rate.

She doesn't have to declare her income, unless you have given her a contract that says she is providing services as a self employed person, you have to register her as an employee and pay her Prsi, USC etc.

All Rosie in the garden now but if you have a falling out which oft happens, or she goes on maternity/sick leave then you'll find out where you stand.

Now 6am to 5:30pm is eleven and a half hours in my book, at €65 per day is that not €5.65 per hour?

Listen buddy - why not address the OP's issues as opposed to sticking your nose in my business, OP asked a question, I provided some information based on a similar situation I have experience of

At the moment I'm slightly concerned that you've confused me with someone who gives a **** about what you think.

runawaybishop

Frank Black wrote: »

Listen buddy - why not address the OP's issues as opposed to sticking your nose in my business, OP asked a question, I provided some information based on a similar situation I have experience of

At the moment I'm slightly concerned that you've confused me with someone who gives a **** about what you think.

You provided information that could result in legal difficulties.

jd83

Op id go get proper advise from revenue how to pay someone properly. If you go down the route of the other poster and pay some slave labour rate it will just come back to bite you down the road.

Better to have it all done properly, have your ass covered and not have to worry about this and concentrate on getting someone good to look after your kids.

Flippyfloppy

5.65 an hour! For an 11 1/2 hour day with 2 children. I'm going to be sick.

davidm20

Flippyfloppy wrote: »

5.65 an hour! For an 11 1/2 hour day with 2 children. I'm going to be sick.

Don't be, you won't get paid

runawaybishop

Flippyfloppy wrote: »

5.65 an hour! For an 11 1/2 hour day with 2 children. I'm going to be sick.

No need to over-react. I'd say the childminder is happy enough with the arrangement.

davo10

Frank Black wrote: »

Listen buddy - why not address the OP's issues as opposed to sticking your nose in my business, OP asked a question, I provided some information based on a similar situation I have experience of

At the moment I'm slightly concerned that you've confused me with someone who gives a **** about what you think.

Firstly, you posted the information on a public forum. Secondly your info was wrong and illegal. Thirdly, whether you like it or not, we are allowed to form an opinion based in what you posted. Fourthly, don't be concerned nor confused, €5.65 per hour for an 11 and a half our day minding 2 kids says you are exploiting the CM, what I think is immaterial. Fifthly we are addressing the OPs question and the best bit of advice was given above by jd83, contact revenue for advice.

Mrs OBumble

godtabh wrote: »

That is incorrect. The can be employed as contract staff I.e. The child minder is responsible for their own tax, sick pay and holidays. They will be self employed

I'm leaving this thread open so that someone can provide a link from an official source explaining how is is possible to do this, for work done in the employer's premises, at fixed hours set by the employer.

Am sceptical that this exists - but maybe there's some exemption for childcare work that I don't know about.

Other than that, a friendly reminder that all advice given on boards.ie should be legal, and that unciivil posting will not be tolerated: if you post details of something you are doing, then expect it to be critiqued.

professore

Ray Palmer wrote: »

You don't hire them as employees you hire them as self employed people. They register as a sole trader and liable for all their taxes.

If they chose to work for less then minimum wage that is their concern not yours.

Revenue view a sole trader with one customer as an employee.

davo10

runawaybishop wrote: »

No need to over-react. I'd say the childminder is happy enough with the arrangement.

I'm not so sure this argument stands, should employees be allowed to be paid less than minimum wage if they are happy enough with the arrangement? Surely that is why there is legislation to prevent employers exploiting employees in this way.

runawaybishop

davo10 wrote: »

I'm not so sure this argument stands, should employees be allowed to be paid less than minimum wage if they are happy enough with the arrangement? Surely that is why there is legislation to prevent employers exploiting employees in this way.

They are not employees. Childminders are self employed.

runawaybishop

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

I'm leaving this thread open so that someone can provide a link from an official source explaining how is is possible to do this, for work done in the employer's premises, at fixed hours set by the employer.

Am sceptical that this exists - but maybe there's some exemption for childcare work that I don't know about.

Other than that, a friendly reminder that all advice given on boards.ie should be legal, and that unciivil posting will not be tolerated: if you post details of something you are doing, then expect it to be critiqued.

The guidelines and all documentation i have seen indicate a childminder works from their own home, not someone elses. Nonetheless, the terms are left to the minder and parents to agree to. There's no regulation on price here. The minder can earn 15k tax exempt a year.

martinr5232

We had a childminder in our house minding the kids we had to pay her taxes and holiday pay as she was coming into our house.

Now we have the kids minded outside the house we dont have to pay holiday pay or her taxes plus were not having to pay for heating and esb during the day so i would think long and hard about having a chilminder in your own home.

2013Lara

I'm a Childminder in my own home, registered as self employed and pay my tax and prsi, do my tax returns etc. I provide a service from my own home. Prior to this I was a Nanny in my employers home, she was my boss and I worked for her. She was registered as my employer and I was paid 10 euro per hour after tax, regardless of how many children I was minding. I wouldn't regard the parents of the children I mind now my boss, they do not employ me, they use my service. My PRSI was paid and I was entitled to normal class A benefits. That is considered the norm when someone minds in your own home. Therefore entitled to holiday pay and sick leave just like any other employee.

Flippyfloppy

http://www.rollercoaster.ie/Article/tabid/156/ArticleName/Employing_a_Childminder/Default.aspx



Employing a Childminder

Question

My little boy has just started school. We have found a childminder to pick him up and take care of him in our home until we get back from work. She will work approximately 15 hours a week for us. I think that she can be considered self-employed so I don't need to worry about paying tax and PRSI on her behalf. Is this correct? (November 2010)
Answer

No, a childminder working in your home is classified as a domestic worker. (If she was working in her own home she could be considered self-employed.) Domestic workers should pay tax and PRSI in the same way as other employees. If you are employing someone to do domestic work and you are paying them €40 a week or more, you must register as an employer with the Revenue Commissioners. As an employer you are responsible for deducting PAYE (tax), PRSI and levies from your employee's wages. You also must pay employer's PRSI contributions for your employee to the national Social Insurance Fund.
To register as an individual employer for PAYE and PRSI you can download form TR1 from the Revenue website or contact your local Revenue office. When you have sent the completed form to Revenue, you will receive confirmation that you are registered as an employer together with your employer registered number for PAYE purposes and information about the PAYE system and procedures.
You can find the Employer's Guide to PAYE on the Revenue website which includes sections on new employees, calculating tax due and PRSI. When you are paying your employee you must give her a payslip giving details of the PAYE and PRSI that has been deducted.

Frank Black

davo10 wrote: »

Firstly, you posted the information on a public forum. Secondly your info was wrong and illegal. Thirdly, whether you like it or not, we are allowed to form an opinion based in what you posted. Fourthly, don't be concerned nor confused, €5.65 per hour for an 11 and a half our day minding 2 kids says you are exploiting the CM, what I think is immaterial. Fifthly we are addressing the OPs question and the best bit of advice was given above by jd83, contact revenue for advice.

Firstly - thanks I didn't know boards.ie was a public forum.
Secondly - how could the info be wrong? It's what I'm doing, Please post some links to prove the illegaility.
Thirdly - I never said you weren't allowed an opinion - just that I don't give a **** about yours.
Forthly - it's not explotation, just your opinion (which as I've said doesn't concern me).
Fifthly - the only uselful advice the Op has received is from me. Contact revenue? - yes that's what everyone does who employs a CM :rolleyes:. Most of the posters here can quote employment legislation til the cows come home, but ye obviously don't live in the real-world.

dec1892

martinr5232 wrote: »

We had a childminder in our house minding the kids we had to pay her taxes and holiday pay as she was coming into our house.

Now we have the kids minded outside the house we dont have to pay holiday pay or her taxes plus were not having to pay for heating and esb during the day so i would think long and hard about having a chilminder in your own home.

The reason we are going down the CM to our home (as opposed bringing the kids to the CM) is that our youngest fella has a condition and so therefore needs some medication during the day - so our preference would be keep him in the home as opposed to exposing him to other kids where he would be more liable to pick up infections, colds etc

Would be interested in getting to the bottom of where we stand legally in the case of getting a CM into the home

runawaybishop

Frank Black wrote: »

Secondly - how could the info be wrong? It's what I'm doing, Please post some links to prove the illegaility..

It depends if you have the kids looked after in your own home or not. If they aren't in your home then you have no issue.

Flippyfloppy

dec1892 wrote: »

The reason we are going down the CM to our home (as opposed bringing the kids to the CM) is that our youngest fella has a condition and so therefore needs some medication during the day - so our preference would be keep him in the home as opposed to exposing him to other kids where he would be more liable to pick up infections, colds etc

Would be interested in getting to the bottom of where we stand legally in the case of getting a CM into the home

Most county councils have Childcare Committees, they are fantastic for help and advice. You wouldnt really want to pick up on [bad] habits of random strangers on the internet.

A childminder in your own home would really be a Nanny. And Au Pair is a cheaper option, they get paid very little as you give them food & board.

Mrs OBumble

Frank Black - do not post in this thread again.

Frank Black

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Frank Black - do not post in this thread again.

Gladly.

paul71

The legality of determination of self-employed vs employed is governed by the common law principle of "master and servant", the Irish revenue have codified this 300 year old rule, as follows.

http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/rct/determining-the-correct-employment-status-of-a-worker.html

"While all of the following factors may not
apply, an individual would normally be an
employee if he or she:
Is under the control of another person
who directs as to how, when and
where the work is to be carried out.
Supplies labour only.
Receives a fixed
hourly/weekly/monthly wage.
Cannot subcontract the work. If the
work can be subcontracted and paid
on by the person subcontracting the
work, the employer/employee
relationship may simply be transferred
on.
Does not supply materials for the job.
Does not provide equipment other
than the small tools of the trade. The
provision of tools or equipment might
not have a significant bearing on
coming to a conclusion that
employment status may be
appropriate having regard to all the
circumstances of a particular case.
Is not exposed to personal financial
risk in carrying out the work.
Does not assume any responsibility
for investment and management in the
business.
Does not have the opportunity to
profit from sound management in the
scheduling of engagements or in the
performance of tasks arising from the
engagements.
Works set hours or a given number of
hours per week or month.
Works for one person or for one
business.
Receives expense payments to
cover subsistence and/or travel
expenses.
Is entitled to extra pay or time off
for overtime."

Not all the above need apply to determine that a person is an employee. Additionally in ALL cases that I am aware of courts/revenue have determined childminders working in parents home to be employees.

Failure to abide by law may result to additional tax, interest, and penalties under the finance acts, additionally violation of the payment of wages act can result in criminal prosecution (unlikely for 1 employee but possible).

Sorry for long post, but bottom line is that there is a lot of uninformed drivel on this thread and you need to protect yourself, so go get professional advice, 1 hour of a solicitor or accountants time at €50 to €100 is a lot cheaper then possible consequences.

MouseTail

There is no ambiguity, no loophole, someone who comes into your home to mind your children, is not a Childminder as meant in the pre school regs, Childminder Guidelines or Revenue Guidance.

runawaybishop

paul71 wrote: »

Not all the above need apply to determine that a person is an employee. Additionally in ALL cases that I am aware of courts/revenue have determined childminders working in parents home to be employees.

Unless that person is an au pair.

dec1892

runawaybishop wrote: »

Unless that person is an au pair.

Even a live out au pair?
What is the difference between a live out au pair and child minder?

gozunda

I am always shocked where some parents advocate the employment of individuals to mind what should be the most precious things in their lives, whilst advocating sub standard employment conditions. Where you pay peanuts ...

sawdoubters

minimum wage laws

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment_rights_and_conditions/pay_and_employment/pay_inc_min_wage.html

sdanseo

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

I'm leaving this thread open so that someone can provide a link from an official source explaining how is is possible to do this, for work done in the employer's premises, at fixed hours set by the employer.

Am sceptical that this exists - but maybe there's some exemption for childcare work that I don't know about.

Other than that, a friendly reminder that all advice given on boards.ie should be legal, and that unciivil posting will not be tolerated: if you post details of something you are doing, then expect it to be critiqued.

Don't have an official source, but I did door to door sales for a few weeks one summer and we all signed agreements specifically stating that our services were engaged by our agency, but that we were not their employees. We spent regular fixed hours on their premises also.

It's certainly not comparable in terms of the type of work - childminders don't earn commission only - but the concept of employment status is the same.

Effectively, we were self employed, and if I hadn't jumped ship after two weeks of earning next to nothing I would have eventually been responsible for declaring any taxable income to the Revenue. We had no employment rights as we were not employees.

I don't do bandwagons, but I'm certainly in agreement that €65 / 11.5 = €5.65 and that's exploitation, as unlike our situation a childminder has no opportunity to earn more during his or her day.

runawaybishop

sawdoubters wrote: »

minimum wage laws

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment_rights_and_conditions/pay_and_employment/pay_inc_min_wage.html

These do not apply for childminders, nor should they.

Flippyfloppy

runawaybishop wrote: »

These do not apply for childminders, nor should they.

You should *try* and be more specific because you're omitting some information relevant to the context of this thread :rolleyes:

runawaybishop

Flippyfloppy wrote: »

You should *try* and be more specific because you're omitting some information relevant to the context of this thread :rolleyes:

You should *try* to understand what a childminder is and how this thread is about childminders :rolleyes: :rolleyes::rolleyes:

That's right, 3 rolleyes.

Flippyfloppy

runawaybishop wrote: »

You should *try* to understand what a childminder is and how this thread is about childminders :rolleyes: :rolleyes::rolleyes:

That's right, 3 rolleyes.

You should *try* and go all the way back to the OP so you may garner the context of this thread :rolleyes:

runawaybishop

Flippyfloppy wrote: »

You should *try* and go all the way back to the OP so you may garner the context of this thread :rolleyes:

The OP wasn't looking for a childminder. Now they know that a childminder looks after kids in their own home and minimum wage rates do not apply. As i specifically called out.

:rolleyes::rolleyes::eek::rolleyes::rolleyes:

seamus

It's been well established that anyone who provides regular permanent services in the home, is a domestic worker and is an employee.

You may only contract them as self-employed if their services are only occasionally or temporarily used, e.g. as a relief carer or a cleaner for 2/3 hours a week.

This is different to other companies hiring self-employed contractors, specifically because it's your home and it's recognised that domestic work is a big source of exploitation of migrant or other vulnerable workers.

"They were self-employed, it's not my problem" simply won't fly if any of the state bodies get involved. Revenue will clean out your bank account, and DOSW, INIS and the Gardai could prosecute you, depending on how much you've been taking the piss. If you've been treating them fairly (40-hour week @ €10/hour), then you'll probably only be in hoc to Revenue for unpaid PRSI.

http://www.ictu.ie/download/pdf/domestic_english.pdf
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/types_of_employment/full_time_employment/domestic_workers_in_ireland.html

As your employee, your carer* cannot work more than 48 hours per week on average, they are entitled to at least one full consecutive 35 hour period off per week, and must be paid minimum wage. They are entitled to be paid for bank holidays (and payment in lieu if they work that day), and 20 days paid holidays per year. They are not entitled to sick pay. In fact, I would expressly include in their contract a clause which allows you to terminate the contract without prejudice if the person because ill for an extended period.
But you should discuss it with a solicitor, there will be boilerplate contracts you can get for this.

*I say carer, because someone who works in your home is not legally a childminder.

GarIT

runawaybishop wrote: »

nor should they.

Why shouldn't childminders be paid minimum wage?

Moonbeam

I was a childminder and am still registered.
http://www.childminding.ie/childminding/faqs/ is a useful resource to find out what a childminder is and does.
Someone who minds your kids in your own home is classed as a nanny and is covered by employment law and can not earn the 15k tax free (you still pay prsi and return accounts) that childminders in their own home can.

Moonbeam

GarIT wrote: »

Why shouldn't childminders be paid minimum wage?

This question comes up frequently and it comes down to the fact that you are minding children in your own house often with your own children and that is also why you can earn 15k tax exempt and pay a flat rate of prsi.

runawaybishop

GarIT wrote: »

Why shouldn't childminders be paid minimum wage?

Due to the nature of the work. Often the minder is not looking after the kids full time - they are dropped to school for X hours, they are minded along with other kids etc. The minder also can have more than one kid in their care and earn a decent amount - up to 15k is tax exempt also.

Ray Palmer

seamus wrote: »

"They were self-employed, it's not my problem" simply won't fly if any of the state bodies get involved. Revenue will clean out your bank account, and DOSW, INIS and the Gardai could prosecute you, depending on how much you've been taking the piss. If you've been treating them fairly (40-hour week @ €10/hour), then you'll probably only be in hoc to Revenue for unpaid PRSI.

Lets be reasonable here while all of that is "possible" it is so out of the realms of probable it won't ever happen in any short time with all fines. You would get so many warnings before the fines you would want to be trying to get fined and punished.

You can quote all the laws/regulation you want it just doesn't happen like that. They are the worst possible outcomes held for serial offenses and a complete disregard when caught.

wmpdd3

I have seen this all blow up when the child minder tries to claim maternity benefit two or the years after they worked as a childminder in the parent's home, the minder has no insurance record and the employer has a massive tax and prsi bill.

The minder then only gets jsa not maternity benefit, even if they are in a new job, once the year used for contributions is the year they were childminding.

There is no way around this, if you work in the child s home you are an employee with employee rights.
If they are self employed / sole trader, they can pay their own prsi.