Ann Lovett case - 30 years
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Glass fused light wrote: »Okay please explain to me then. What is your issue with my post exactly?
Context, in regards to the thread, the 80's and today, the age of conception, the age she died.
[/quoteThank goodness the country has come on so much and such attitudes no longer exist. It seems like a different planet altogether, that people would get so worked up by a woman, Ann Lovett, having a little baby seems unfathomable.
But I didn't mention Ann Lovett in my post, I was commenting generally on the situation as it is today. I've already clarified this! Other posters have also commented generally on irish soceity and single mothers also, so I'm not sure why you are focussing on my post?0 -
But I didn't mention Ann Lovett in my post, I was commenting generally on the situation as it is today. I've already clarified this! Other posters have also commented generally on irish soceity and single mothers also, so I'm not sure why you are focussing on my post?
what you saidThank goodness the country has come on so much and such attitudes no longer exist. It seems like a different planet altogether, that people would get so worked up by a woman having a little baby seems unfathomable.
What i assume you were trying to say?
Thank goodness the country has come on so much and such attitudes no longer exist. It seems like a different planet altogether, that people would get so worked up by a woman women having a little baby babies seems unfathomable.
Other posters have, intentionaly or not, placed the responsibility of dealing with her pregnacy solely with her shoulders, which was a very 80's thing to do.
So its context rather than being a grammar nazi1 -
Glass fused light wrote: »But I didn't mention Ann Lovett in my post, I was commenting generally on the situation as it is today. I've already clarified this! Other posters have also commented generally on irish soceity and single mothers also, so I'm not sure why you are focussing on my post?
what you saidThank goodness the country has come on so much and such attitudes no longer exist. It seems like a different planet altogether, that people would get so worked up by a woman having a little baby seems unfathomable.
What i assume you were trying to say?
Thank goodness the country has come on so much and such attitudes no longer exist. It seems like a different planet altogether, that people would get so worked up by a woman women having a little baby babies seems unfathomable.
Other posters have, intentionaly or not, placed the responsibility of dealing with her pregnacy solely with her shoulders, which was a very 80's thing to do.
So its context rather than being a grammar nazi
Jesus Christ. Right il be more mindful of my grammar the next. Apologies.0 -
Mention of this tragedy again this week on The Ryan Tubridy show and the prospect of an upcoming movie on the matter titled "Ann" https://www.imdb.com/title/tt10648908/reference/ led me back to this thread and caused me to re-examine much of the material including a 30th anniversary "Remembering Ann Lovett" conference in University of Maynooth https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zsDkgA-FMcE and Ricky McDonald's Irish Times Interview from 2018; I was Ann Lovett's boyfriend https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/i-was-ann-lovett-s-boyfriend-1.3484311.
In spite of all the developments and stuff that has emerged over the past 10 years it seems we are still no nearer the truth and indeed with the death of Ann's mother Patricia in 2015, who it seems steadfastly maintained her silence on the matter right til the end, we are unlikely to get any nearer the truth without more people coming forward with information.
I was the more or less the same age as Anne and grew up in the same Ireland in a rural part of the West of Ireland about 100 miles from Ann. I actually attended college in Galway with one of her former class mates, who also coincidentally became pregnant whilst in college and it seemed at the time I was leaving college in 1989 was preparing to "go it alone" without much in the way of support from the family of the well to do father of the child. I was conscious of living in a very rapidly changing Ireland between 1984 and the one I left in 1989 to go live in England for 4 years. In 1984, in the wake of the incredibly divisive and emotive 1983 Abortion referendum, the initial evidence of a loosening of church control over peoples minds was emerging although the last vestiges of this control remained very powerful especially in many rural areas and amongst a large cohort of influencable people. I don't believe the strictures or the control of the Church in my mid 1980's Ireland were as strict as those projected by others here which I rather suggest date from the 1960's of 70's. But none the less I was still aware of the power of Church dictate even if I was fortunate enough to never experience it myself first hand, I was conscious of third party accounts or hearsay of where people were ordered to behave in a particular way by church authorities and would not dare disobey out of fear.
I only first visited Granard 4 years ago on a cold winter morning on a diversion whilst driving West from Dublin. The lonely grotto so vividly described in so many articles over the past 39 years still remains the same, poignantly so, and there is still no acknowledgement or memorial to hint what happened here 39 years ago. On one level I can appreciate why the people of Granard want it this way, as they, labelled as a 1980's "Valley of the Squinting Windows" were unfairly and presumptiously made to carry the guilt and shame of an entire nations failings, which caused an anger and pain that still persists to this day. Equally I suspect many people in Granard didn't help the situation by the way they closed ranks and maintained a silence, where opening up and discussing what happened could have helped in both understanding what happened and initiating a healing process. I expect much of that behaviour was based on a loyalty, however misplaced, to the Lovett family, especially Ann's mother Patricia, a pillar of the local church community. As such Patricia appeared to be an atypical mother of the Ireland of the time, heading a large family of 9 children of whom tragic daughters Ann and Patricia were the youngest. It's a matter of debate and speculation whether issues in the family of publican Diarmuid and his wife Patricia had uncovered a chink in the veneer of a good upstanding typical Irish 1980's family before the events of January 1984. But there is no doubt that they had a devastating effect, that saw the death of Ann and her son Patrick in January, Patricia Jr by suicide in April and Diarmuid himself in 1987 of a stroke at a relatively young mid 50's.
Over the years there were all sorts of speculation and hints of abuse, rape and possibly even worse, which may have led to the tragedies of Ann and Patricia. Ricky McDonald's interview certainly suggest that Ann's pregnancy may have been the result of rape (a claim also made in the 2014 MU conference) as opposed to his underage, albeit fully consentual, sexual relations with her. (Confusingly though, his reference to the destroyed letter she wrote to him before her death also seems to suggest he may have been the father of her son). There is also a suggestion with reference to marks on her body at the autopsy, that Patricia may have equally been the victim of abuse. Despite the protestations of many in Granard, it would seem, ala Christy Moore's powerful song that "Everybody knew, but nobody said". Certainly there is evidence in Ricky McDonald's interview (and her Granard school contemporary from the MU conference) that her pregnancy was common knowledge amongst the teenagers of the town, and it's been said more than once that concerned individuals approached the Lovett family to inform them of this fact and were told to "mind their own business".
One has to wonder, as suggested by Rick McDonald whether Anne's act was the ultimate premeditated protest to the whole community in which she lived to "show them" instead of confiding in one of them for help. Or whether as it has been suggested elsewhere it was the premeditated act of a desparate frightened young girl with full knowledge of what was happening to her, so much so that she had the awareness to carry a scissors for the purpose of cutting the umbilical cord, and she still maintained a religious devotion or a trust however misplaced, that Our Lady and Mary Magdelane might look after her, so that was where she took herself to give birth rather than instead turning to her friends or family for help - a help Ricky said would have been forthcoming from anyone she'd asked.
In any case, it is possible indeed likely that the publicity around this forthcoming movie will fuel more debate about this tragedy, as will next years 40th anniversary, and who knows some more people may come forward (Perhaps the author of the, however genuine, letter -The typo of "Anne" instead of the conventional "Ann" may be the bloggers own error in transcription - referenced in this blog https://rexyreports.wordpress.com/2016/09/02/anne-lovett-still-asked-to-keep-somebodys-secret/) to reveal details which will help bring a final closure to a tragedy that still blights the memory of 1980's Ireland.
Post edited by pjordan on1 -
Just reading this article. An incredibly sad case. Something was seriously very wrong when a 13/14 yr old was left her own devices and unsupervised like that. That guy was 3 or 4 years older and should have been in england with his family not living alone and mixing with very poor male role models who were teaching him to violently abuse animals for starters. Sex with a minor was and is an offence. What normal 16/17yr old lad takes a fancy to a 13 year old child? From the tenure of the article assault/rape & incest are suggested too. Anne created distance with that guy for a reason. If he was the father why would she not tell him if he was even a genuine friend to confide in?? Also, a few short months after a sisters tragic death what on earth was another 14yr old doing in the company of two older males (one of whom was previously sexually involved with her deceased underage sister) & at a dance some miles away until near 3am??!! Bizarre is the word! That girl also had bruises - so was clearly assaulted by someone prior to the overdose. Truly disgraceful that these girls lives were lost and that their young lives were ruined by neglience and paedophile male abusers in their environment. Hope the truth finally comes out. RIP Anne, Patricia & baby Patrick.
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in those sexually repressed times, girls/women fell into 2 categories. you were either a Mary the Blessed Virgin type, or you were a Mary Magdalene. girls in the middle didn't exist, or so we were led to believe. the Church & society did little to change this black & white perception.
no blame was apportioned to the man. i remember a cousin of mine who got a girl pregnant while she was still in school. it was quite a scandal, and the family were anxious to keep it quiet. some time after the whole business was tidied-up. (she went to England), i recall his Dad saying of the situation, "Ah! sure she got under him"
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Excellent article by Rosita Boland on Ann and her sister Trisha in today's Irish Times. Heartbreak upon heartbreak. And the cover finally beginning to lift off the dysfunction in their home and their violent father.
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I have been drawn into this awful story since watching the documentary recently aired on Virgin Media which highlighted a small part to Ann Lovett whilst speaking about the baby John - Kerry baby case. I am 31 and my parents were born in 1951, they would often tell me about the influence and power the catholic church had at the time and how even if someone in your family committed suicide the whole family would be tarnished as "mental" or "suffering with their nerves" and to stay away from them if you had a romantic interest in any other sibling from that family. I suppose for me personally the way things are now, to try and possibly imagine how a world like this once existed - is beyond difficult to imagine. It doesn't bear to think how frightened poor Ann Lovett was. Whether she was raped or it was consensual she still felt like she had no one to turn to.
It frustrates me so much to think all the blame was on women and these young girls whilst the men who also took part (takes two to tango) could walk away Scott free with no repercussions. Men weren't put in laundries or questioned on their sex lives or shamed upon and what annoys me is ..Certain aspects of different morals are still here to this day. Not as extreme but Men can sleep with 1000s of women but if a girl does it she's a "tramp". Why is it always one rule for women and none for Men?
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10 years since this particular thread started and 40th anniversary of the tragedy yesterday. Surprised there wasn't more focus on it again on the anniversary. But I suppose it is still, even forty years on, a rather delicate, painful and embarrassing subject for some, even still, and I suppose also that little new has emerged in recent years beyond the boyfriend interview in the Irish Time.
Actually it only occurred to me listening to Liveline on Wed "celebrating" Luke Kelly's 40th anniversary, that would have been the story all over the news the morning poor Ann headed for the grotto. RIP Ann. Sleep peacefully with your baby, and your sister and the angels.
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Was it discussed on the news/media much at the time? I can remember the Kerry Babies case well but have no memory of hearing about Ann Lovett till the 90s.
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