Ticket Touting Discussion

scudzilla

Hopefully we can have a discussion here about Ticket touts and touting in general.

Lets try and refrain from the one sentence 'They're all scum' answers and have a decent discussion.

Personally i don't have much of an issue with touts, people will always try and make money, in any way they can, and ticketmaster really do help them out with sometimes ridiculous maximum limits (6 each for Slash at The Olympia springs to mind)

In my gig going years, (since '85) i've bought tickets from touts outside venues many many times, and have NEVER paid more than face value, i bought 2 tickets in Manchester for Rammstein a few years back for 40 quid, they were 45 each face value!!! You just have to know how to speak to them, if they aint selling, walk away, they'd rather some cash in pocket than a useless ticket.

I have even sold tickets over face value 2/3 times, i'm no tout by any stretch, but if i get presented an opportunity to make a few quid then i will.

Ever heard of Viagogo? They have tickets supplied to them by Ticketmaster, they're currently selling standing tickets for Garth Brooks for 190Euro, AND A SEAT IN ROW G, BLOCK 332 WILL COST 943Euro each!!

Have a watch of this, very interesting

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWlnL8drSdw

Another good documentary is this one, part 1 is here, just follow on for the rest

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zgV93t-Z_s

Now Ticketmaster will soon be bringing in a seperate section to their site called Ticketmaster Auction, where people can bid on tickets, these will be for hard to get gigs, if they take 10% of the tickets and auctioned them thats 10% less tickets for the fans, and who will get the extra money? (3/4/5 time face value), yep, that'll be ticketmaster.

Stubhub in the U.S is joined with Ticketmaster, they auction/sell tickets WAY over face value and have done for YEARS

Ever heard of a guy called Trent Reznor? (Nine Inch Nails), well he had a bit of a war with Ticketmaster and them selling over the odds some years ago, another interesting read below

As we approach on-sale dates for the upcoming tour, I’ve noticed lots of you are curious / concerned / outraged at the plethora of tickets that somehow appear on all these reseller sites at inflated prices – even before the pre-sale dates. I’ll do my best to explain the situation as I see it, as well as clarify my organization’s stance in the matter.

NIN decides to tour this summer. We arrive at the conclusion outdoor amphitheaters are the right venue for this outing, for a variety of reasons we’ve throughly considered*. In the past, NIN would sell the shows in each market to local promoters, who then “buy” the show from us to sell to you. Live Nation happens to own all the amphitheaters and bought most of the local promoters – so if you want to play those venues, you’re being promoted by Live Nation. Live Nation has had an exclusive deal with TicketMaster that has just expired, so Live Nation launched their own ticketing service. Most of the dates on this tour are through Live Nation, some are through TicketMaster – this is determined by the promoter (Live Nation), not us.
Now we get into the issue of secondary markets for tickets, which is the hot issue here. The ticketing marketplace for rock concerts shows a real lack of sophistication, meaning this: the true market value of some tickets for some concerts is much higher than what the act wants to be perceived as charging. For example, there are some people who would be willing to pay $1,000 and up to be in the best seats for various shows, but MOST acts in the rock / pop world don’t want to come off as greedy pricks asking that much, even though the market says its value is that high. The acts know this, the venue knows this, the promoters know this, the ticketing company knows this and the scalpers really know this. So…

The venue, the promoter, the ticketing agency and often the artist camp (artist, management and agent) take tickets from the pool of available seats and feed them directly to the re-seller (which from this point on will be referred to by their true name: SCALPER). I am not saying every one of the above entities all do this, nor am I saying they do it for all shows but this is a very common practice that happens more often than not. There is money to be made and they feel they should participate in it. There are a number of scams they employ to pull this off which is beyond the scope of this note.

StubHub.com is an example of a re-seller / scalper. So is TicketsNow.com.

Here’s the rub: TicketMaster has essentially been a monopoly for many years – certainly up until Live Nation’s exclusive deal ran out. They could have (and can right now) stop the secondary market dead in its tracks by doing the following: limit the amount of sales per customer, print names on the tickets and require ID / ticket matches at the venue. We know this works because we do it for our pre-sales. Why don’t THEY do it? It’s obvious – they make a lot of money fueling the secondary market. TicketMaster even bought a re-seller site and often bounces you over to that site to buy tickets (TicketsNow.com)!

NIN gets 10% of the available seats for our own pre-sale. We won a tough (and I mean TOUGH) battle to get the best seats. We require you to sign up at our site (for free) to get tickets. We limit the amount you can buy, we print your name on the tickets and we have our own person let you in a separate entrance where we check your ID to match the ticket. We charge you a surcharge that has been less than TicketMaster’s or Live Nation’s in all cases so far to pay for the costs of doing this – it’s not a profit center for us. We have essentially stopped scalping by doing these things – because we want true fans to be able to get great seats and not get ripped off by these parasites.

I assure you nobody in the NIN camp supplies or supports the practice of supplying tickets to these re-sellers because it’s not something we morally feel is the right thing to do. We are leaving money on the table here but it’s not always about money.
Being completely honest, it IS something I’ve had to consider. If people are willing to pay a lot of money to sit up front AND ARE GOING TO ANYWAY thanks to the rigged system, why let that money go into the hands of the scalpers? I’m the one busting my ass up there every night. The conclusion really came down to it not feeling like the right thing to do – simple as that.

My guess as to what will eventually happen if / when Live Nation and TicketMaster merges is that they’ll move to an auction or market-based pricing scheme – which will simply mean it will cost a lot more to get a good seat for a hot show. They will simply BECOME the scalper, eliminating them from the mix.

Nothing’s going to change until the ticketing entity gets serious about stopping the problem – which of course they don’t see as a problem. The ultimate way to hurt scalpers is to not support them. Leave them holding the merchandise. If this subject interests you, check out the following links. Don’t buy from scalpers, and be suspect of artists singing the praises of the Live Nation / TicketMaster merger. What’s in it for them?


If people didn't buy from touts they would go away, but they do, so they'll be here for some time to come

Whats your opinions?

Toast

People who want to tout point to the capitalistic nature of our society and how supply and demand define the price of items saying that the market should regulate pricing rather than a law.

People who believe that touting is wrong and there should be laws against it typically see that engaging in it is creating an environment that is destructive and likely to backfire on ones self. It makes it harder to get tickets and costs people money.

What you basically got is a libertarian viewpoint and a socialist viewpoint and depending on which side you float towards you'll see the other as wrong not for any logical reason but for an idealistic reason. Any discussion on this (and I've been in a few) gets very circular as you're basically arguing against someones world view.

As such I rarely spend the time anymore trying to convince people they're wrong (from my perspective) and just concentrate on providing an alternative to people who share my view.

rubadub

Mr.S wrote: »

What really pisses me off is the fact when people specifically buy tickets to shows to re-sell at a higher price when its sold out. If you go to any gigs regularly in Dublin, you will notice the same 3 or 4 lads buying and selling tickets outside the venues, they've been doing it years and make a killing.

I doubt the "old school touts" buy any tickets in advance of a gig though. The usual guys you see are doing the "buying or selling" tickets routine. They go up to a venue and just try and find people trying to get rid of tickets, and sell them on a bit higher, sort of like stockbrokers taking a commission. Often they would be paying well over the odds themselves.

These old touts will often not want to buy tickets if they have too many, simple supply & demand. They would make sure never to be lumbered with a load of them. e.g. if garth brooks had 10 more gigs these touts would not be bothered, they would go and make what they can on the day. The old school touts very often will sell well below face value too, and still can be making a decent profit. Some people would tear a ticket up before selling to a tout, but that is also stopping a fan from going, who could possibly have bought it from them at face value or below. Some people will give them to bouncers or gardai at larger gigs telling them to give them free if anybody asks, but I would not trust them to do that, could end up just another middleman getting his cut.

People are shy and nervous or do not have time to be shouting about selling tickets outside gigs. I have seen more people with signs outside gigs in recent years. A sign like "genuine fan needs ticket will pay face value".

Ticketmaster could easily set up a system to refund people for tickets and resell them themselves. If you have an account with them and a history showing you rarely return tickets then you should be allowed. You would need this rule to stop people buying up loads, discovering the gig has not sold out, and returning them. Remember www.tickets.ie are a small company who can make a grand living selling at face value, when ticketmaster charge you €6.10 this is not simply €6.10, this is €6.10 above and beyond what tickets.ie can make an acceptable profit on. Their lack of actual service is astonishing for the price they charge for it.

MadsL

rubadub wrote: »

A sign like "genuine fan needs ticket will pay face value".

This. I have given spare tickets away before now, standing outside until I manage to give the ticket away in the hopes of paying it forward.

I will never pay or ask more than face value. Lifelong vow.

lordgoat

TM are in the business of making money. They do it very well. Why would they make it difficult for them to make money by changing it in favour of a fan based system?

All we are going to see in Ireland/EU is what's happening in the US, basically TM touting with TM getting a slice.

scudzilla

lordgoat wrote: »

TM are in the business of making money. They do it very well. Why would they make it difficult for them to make money by changing it in favour of a fan based system?

All we are going to see in Ireland/EU is what's happening in the US, basically TM touting with TM getting a slice.

Yep, and you can't go against Ticketmaster, i think Pearl Jam tried it and didn't tour the U.S for a long time due to it

opr

Mr.S wrote: »

Its very hard to stop touting, we could adopt a Glastonbury system for tickets but thats way over kill for standard gigs.

I've never understood why with most gigs sold through ticketmaster in Ireland that you can't have some kind of similar system in place?

As an example lets say each person when they register an account with ticketmaster uploads a photo which is then used when they purchase a ticket for a gig. So you have a stock photo from your ticketmaster account which is printed on the ticket for each gig that you buy a ticket.

You could have some kind of a system which allows two transfer per year for people who genuinely can't attend a gig. It would help massively to stop touting and doesn't seem like a huge ordeal to implement.

Opr

A V A

im looking forward contributing to this thread in a considerate way thats not just "their scum" i just have the time right now to think about how to say what im thinking as im a bit slow :P but i want to explain myself in the right way , absolute great thread to start with, great resources and evidence to go off , well done

Toast

opr wrote: »

register an account with ticketmaster
uploads a photo... some kind of a system...doesn't seem like a huge ordeal to implement.

Glastonbury got a lot of flack for changing their system to such an Internet based solution and effectively denying people who weren't tech savvy or had access to that technology the chance to get tickets.

Had this been in place on Ticketmaster for Garth Brooks can you imagine the rush for people to register their photos between the announcement and the sale?

I think you'd just be replacing one form of anguish and pain for another.

A V A

Toast wrote: »

Glastonbury got a lot of flack for changing their system to such an Internet based solution and effectively denying people who weren't tech savvy or had access to that technology the chance to get tickets.

Had this been in place on Ticketmaster for Garth Brooks can you imagine the rush for people to register their photos between the announcement and the sale?

I think you'd just be replacing one form of anguish and pain for another.

if thats the case we have a 20 or so year wait for the elderly of today to pass away , for this technology to come into effect and the generations will be educated in "technology"

i think the glastonbury system is an absolute great idea and should be in place !!! photo on both tickets and if being sold a fee to be paif for th details for be changed over and the photo to be changed over aswell , that way i see touts not bothering to do any of that , and if fake tickets are attempted to be sold , they're screwed

A V A

and i think those bug promoters should cop the fcuk on and go with tickets.ie ticket master was once where they were , everyone has to start at the bottom

RiverOfLove

A V A wrote: »

if thats the case we have a 20 or so year wait for the elderly of today to pass away , for this technology to come into effect and the generations will be educated in "technology"

i think the glastonbury system is an absolute great idea and should be in place !!! photo on both tickets and if being sold a fee to be paif for th details for be changed over and the photo to be changed over aswell , that way i see touts not bothering to do any of that , and if fake tickets are attempted to be sold , they're screwed

I can't see how something like this won't work.

If you buy an airline and are unable to continue with your journay, you can change dates easily but it will cost you a bit. Also if can't turn around around and resell your ticket for a profit.

A V A

Mr.S wrote: »

It would cost a lot to implement that, plus lots of obstacles like tickets as gifts, group tickets, what if you can't make it last min and give them to a friend?

As Lordgoat said, they are making killings off ticketsales in Ireland (and the world!) as they are the only popular seller. Tickets.ie is good but isn't used by the big promoters (well, rarley).

and i totally understand that but why not implement a system as to where they can ring up ,lets say 8 hours before the gig , ring and cancel , the money then returned to the card owner account that it was payed by and the ticket then goes back into the ticket master system for re sale with obvious diferent numbers and barcodes etc , im sure a system could be in place for paying by cash

nitromaster

A V A wrote: »

and i think those bug promoters should cop the fcuk on and go with tickets.ie ticket master was once where they were , everyone has to start at the bottom

And then tickets.ie manages to go completely down for every single big event it tries...yeah not the best idea :P

RainyDay

Mr.S wrote: »

If we adopted the Glaso style measures for EVERY gig through Ticketmaster, it would cost a **** load to implement, what if people wanted to re-sell at facevalue etc etc, let alone the privacy concerns that would no doubt arise.

For something as big as Glastonbury its fine because people are willing to jump through the hoops. People wouldn't be as forthcoming with run of the mill gigs every day of the week!

Other countries (mostly festivals though) have a system where once you buy your ticket, you have to register it online under the name of the person who will be attending and using that ticket, and then photo ID is checked at the gate. So the tickets only become tied once registered to a name.

I was at the Tom Waits gigs at the Phoenix Park (2008?) when they checked passports to match the name, and there was no delay or queueing problems.

They should offer a 'cancel' option, so instead of reselling tickets to your workmate, you just sell them back to Ticketmaster.

lordgoat

To all the people saying TM should do this and that.

Why the fuk should they? They are a business and making money and getting the most money possible. The don't care about fans or artists or anything other than that. It's really simplistic to say oh they should just do these things when you don't consider the fact that their no.1 objective is to make as much cash as possible.

I don't agree with it but I can definitely understand it.

Also lol's at whoever thinks TM will ignore the promotors aor promotors will use an alternative. When Live Nation the biggest promotor owns TM. Oh yes we bought you but we are now going to use something else to make less money.

When that deal went through it was the end of a free market and there is no realistic alternative.

Mike Guide 69

Mr.S wrote: »

Matching names to tickets I have no problem with, if there is a proper system in place.

What did they do for the Tom Waits gig? Did the card holder / person who booked tickets have to be there with ID?

I went to that Tom Waits gig in The Phoenix Park (cracking gig, dreadful weather though, bit like what it is now).

When i produced my ticket, security asked for a visual i.d, i had my drivers licence with me and that was enough for them. Matching my name with the pic, but in the line beside me, the security guy, seemed to be checking every 2nd or 3rd person for id, so i guess it was down to the individual from the security end at how best they wanted to implement it.

nxbyveromdwjpg

How do you all feel about paying below face value when a 'true fan' is stuck with a spare ticket come the day?

Any issues with giving them €25 for a €50 ticket, thereby reverse-touting the person due to the same laws of supply and demand?

Toutless and adverts have no issue with this, I'm guessing many here don't either. Why the double standard?

Toast

Selling over face value never helps anyone other than the seller. There can be a belief in the buyers mind they've been helped but this is not the case. Buying/selling below face value CAN be a two way street of people helping each other out.

Basically if someone has a ticket to something they can't get rid off at face value they are generally happy to get something for it. Similarly there are people who might not be interested in seeing something at the original face value but will take a punt if there are tickets for cheaper. I've been on both ends of the transactions and been happy to have been. I think allowing it helps more people than denying it would.

What I don't believe in is trying to pressure people into selling at a lower price. Lowball offers, posting a maximum price you'll buy at in wanted sales, pitting two sellers against each other etc. I'm not a fan of the adverts style "arm chancing" offers. We try restrict this sort of environment as much as possible on Toutless.

rubadub

lordgoat wrote: »

To all the people saying TM should do this and that.

Why the fuk should they?

I think its more people saying "If TM gave a damn about their customers, or had any moral conscience then they could easily do something, they don't -proving they are ruthless pricks who only care about profit, they offer a VERY poor after sales service, even though they charge ludicrous amounts for this service".

People are saying it would cost a lot to implement, well they are already getting up to €6.10 per ticket above & beyond what tickets.ie do.

The US term is scalping, you can see TM fought against anti-scalping laws in some places. Sometimes they do seem to attempt to say they are against it though.

Toast wrote: »

Similarly there are people who might not be interested in seeing something at the original face value but will take a punt if there are tickets for cheaper.

+1, I was given 2 tickets to get rid off once and the concert had just started in the olympia. A passing english lad & his wife bought them for half price or so, he only got them since they were going cheap, he didn't even know who was playing till I told him.

RainyDay

lordgoat wrote: »

To all the people saying TM should do this and that.

Why the fuk should they? They are a business and making money and getting the most money possible. The don't care about fans or artists or anything other than that. It's really simplistic to say oh they should just do these things when you don't consider the fact that their no.1 objective is to make as much cash as possible.

I don't agree with it but I can definitely understand it.

It took Mick O'Leary about 20 years to work out that making your customers hate you is not a sound business strategy. How long do you think it will take TM to follow suit?

rubadub

RainyDay wrote: »

How long do you think it will take TM to follow suit?

When they get some genuine competition.

scudzilla

The recent Garth Brooks gigs for example, they really should have been a maximum of 4 per person, possibly 2, it's just playing into the arms of touts.

Look at Slash at the Olympia last year, a venue with approx 1,000 capacity and they let people buy 8 tickets each!!

Brooks has sold 320,000 this week, or he will have by Thursday, at 6.10Euro per ticket in fee's that's 1.9million in fee's alone!!

And people wonder why TM won't change, until they do then it's always going to weigh in a touts favour

A V A

Mr.S wrote: »

Because the current system works fine for promoters and TM. There is little incentive for them to change the ticketing system.

If we adopted the Glaso style measures for EVERY gig through Ticketmaster, it would cost a **** load to implement, what if people wanted to re-sell at facevalue etc etc, let alone the privacy concerns that would no doubt arise.

For something as big as Glastonbury its fine because people are willing to jump through the hoops. People wouldn't be as forthcoming with run of the mill gigs every day of the week!

Other countries (mostly festivals though) have a system where once you buy your ticket, you have to register it online under the name of the person who will be attending and using that ticket, and then photo ID is checked at the gate. So the tickets only become tied once registered to a name.

the system isnt fine is a load of boll*x

if people want to go to a concert and buy the tickets right away when they come out for sale , to me thats enough for me to say "tough sh*t" , yes things come up last minute so thats why i said for them to be re-entered to the system

i would rather pay the fees to change over , rather than pay money to a person profiteering and touting , if its a tenner thn over so be it , rather pay that then 20 or over


and +1 on registering online

Toast

You guys saying online registration, uploading photos, online ownership changes etc need to go reread the panicy questions of the people in the Garth Brooks threads regards using the ticketmaster website and remember that they're the ones who were tech savvy enough to find boards, register and post. There is another bunch of people we never see on online forums because it is an alien idea to them.

I'd love an all digital solution which allowed ownership transfer personally if everyone could use it but it comes with a barrier to entry that removes a chunk of people from the buying pool and isn't even that effective (I've had plenty of people try buying / selling Glastonbury tickets regardless of the security).

Irish Aris

scudzilla wrote: »

Brooks has sold 320,000 this week, or he will have by Thursday, at 6.10Euro per ticket in fee's that's 1.9million in fee's alone!!

/QUOTE]

We had the same discussion today at work. It is one of the reasons that most of the time I'd buy my tickets on outlets (where I'd pay 2.50 at most).

On the topic of touting, I guess it's all a matter of supply and (mostly) demand. People want to badly go to concerts, they miss on tickets (which makes me wonder how badly they wanna go to the concert in the first place) and then pay ridiculous money on touts (and if they can really afford to pay ridiculous money) I don't feel sorry for them).

For me it's a matter of principle. I refuse to pay anything above face value. There were a couple of occasions that I missed on tickets because of work commitments-in one of them I manage to find ticket on the day of the concert on toutless.com. Similarly if I had to sell a ticket it would never be for more than face value.

A V A

Edited:

This has nothing to do with boards.ie Take it up with the website that you have the issue with.

melekalikimaka

from working at concerts for a long time my only advice is dont by tickets second hand, the amount of people every year who turn up with cancelled tickets and have absolutely no recourse as the only person who we can help sort messes out are people who had bought the ticket originally.

you run a hugh risk buying off any sites other than ticketmaster.

Irish Aris

melekalikimaka wrote: »

from working at concerts for a long time my only advice is dont by tickets second hand, the amount of people every year who turn up with cancelled tickets and have absolutely no recourse as the only person who we can help sort messes out are people who had bought the ticket originally.

you run a hugh risk buying off any sites other than ticketmaster.

second that.
On the odd occasion I'd try toutless.com, it would be the only site that I'd put any trust on.

A V A

ok lordgoat ill remember that when you comment on things that have nothing to with boards.ie

A V A

melekalikimaka wrote: »

from working at concerts for a long time my only advice is dont by tickets second hand, the amount of people every year who turn up with cancelled tickets and have absolutely no recourse as the only person who we can help sort messes out are people who had bought the ticket originally.

you run a hugh risk buying off any sites other than ticketmaster.

i dont why people dont take advice from people like your self with first hand experience in dealings with concerts , 100% with what you said . and for you having to deal with the people with cancelled tickets must have been rough , i could only imagine their re actions

Toast

Mr.S wrote: »

While toutless is a great platform and I use it all the time, it's fairly easy to shift loads of cancelled tickets via it if your so inclined!

I agree this is true and I actually worry when people assume because a user is on our site they must be trustworthy. This is actually counterproductive to us as it makes us MORE attractive to scammers. Our strategy against scammers is to have an educated user base AND to have a quick response to suspicious activity. With enough effort put in by a scammer they could take anyone in but the reality is most won't waste their time if they're not getting bites and having accounts closed quickly especially as there are less vigilant communities to take advantage of.

So I'd much rather people take the most cautious approach in dealings at all times. For example we're often asked if ticketfast (aka etickets or print at home tickets) are dangerous but the reality is while it is easier for them to be printed multiple times the same risk exists with regular printed tickets of being canceled. Our advice is to treat them equally suspiciously.

Still dealing with canceled and multiple etickets is usually amateur stuff. MOST scams these days are based around getting people to send money remotely on the promise of a ticket being delivered. This used to be done with things like William Hill or Western Union transfers but more often we're seeing people use Bank Accounts and Paypal accounts as people BELIEVE these provide security. I don't know how hard it is to actually use fake credentials to setup bank accounts and paypal accounts but I do know that neither CAN help you in the case of an issue without getting courts involved. The data protection act is very clear on providing details of people to others and someone coming along to a bank with a story about promised tickets is not going to have them release information. You'd have to create a case and get a court order for the release of information.

It is not 100% guarantee but if you arrange to meet someone in person for the deal in a safe public place, ask them to bring ID, check the name on the tickets match the ID and get a camera phone pic of the ID you're going to be a lot less likely to be riped off than dealing with a stranger on the Internet. Obviously what melekalikimaka says about not buying second hand at all is the safest method so get yourself a good twitter list of promoters, music sites etc to be aware of stuff going on sale that you might be interested in.

A V A

i do this all time and advise people to do it to ask for ID , a copy of a drivers license or take a picture of it , when buying any tickets at all , i have done that on adverts when buying tickets and especially e tickets aswell, im not afraid to ask and the person selling should understand and be ok with providing some sort of proof of their id etc

i got scammed on adverts in december by a user that scammed 4 or 5 other users for the value of 400 euro and up , a certain rep from adverts would not give out details of this user even tho the transactions were all done by bank account, which is understandable adverts rep sticket to the rules under the data protection act , but still my case and the other users that were scammed , we made a case and we all reported our cases , we even met up , those of us from dublin , to decide what the plan was and kept the people that were not from dublin in the loop. they got away with a substantial amount of money so you would think the guards would simply just get in touch with adverts and get the bank info and go from there.

people should be carefull with tickets aswell, as a year or two ago , i bought tickets from a woman that was 100% legit , met her outside the hospital were she worked and bought tickets , came to the night of the event and they were cancelled, we were made a show of and it was humiliating , turns out she bought them from a polish couple and then sold hem on to us , she bought them at a touted price and sold them on for even a more profit !! its just a never ending story with concert tickets

lordgoat

From a personal point of view. I have no sympathy for anyone that gets ripped off paying over the face value for a ticket. You used a tout. You got burned. Again this might sound harsh but if no one bought above face value tickets there would be no touts. It's a simplistic view i know but it's one I hold to. I'd rather not go to a concert than pay over the asking to a tout.