Jack Daniels releases new training plans

viperlogic

I see Jack Daniels has released new training plans in the 3rd edition of his book, Daniels Running Formula. I have the 2nd edition and have just ordered the 3rd.
The 3rd edition now has 6 marathon training plans: novice, 2Q, 4 week cycle, 5 week cycle, 18 week and 12 week. Also plans now for half marathon and the paces have changed also.

Anyone else get it yet and what do they make of the new plans?

Bludub

I preordered it before Christmas. Got email today saying it is despatched. Hopefully I'll have it the next week.

viperlogic

Book arrived and I can say its much better than the 2nd edition in terms of plans. Now includes loads more plans and all tailored to different weekly mileage.

adrian522

Currently reading this, very interesting stuff, I love all the technical analysis.

I'm about half way through, enjoying it, half the test is now underlined on the kindle!

Is anyone/has anyone followed the plans? Any feedback if so?

tunguska

Got mine a few weeks ago. Usually with new editions theres not that much of a difference but this is like a different book altogether, theres so much new stuff in there.

AuldManKing

Source: http://fellrnr.com/wiki/Jack_Daniels_Running_Formula


5 Third Edition Changes

The third edition of the book includes numerous changes.

The table of race performance to VDOT has not changed at all, but there is now a table for those with slower performances. This covers VDOT values of 20 to 30, mile race times of 9:10 to 12:55 and marathon times of 4:57 to 6:44.

The Easy pace is now a range of paces roughly centered on the second edition's single Easy pace. The range is 76 seconds/mile wide for VDOT of 30 down to 42 seconds for a VDOT of 85. The second edition used about 74% of V̇O2max, and the third edition uses 70% to 79%.

Paces for T, I, and R have not changed, nor obviously has the M pace.

There is now the idea of Hard running which is based on subjective feel rather than a specified pace.

There is no longer a table for longer Tempo runs and the T pace is now only used for interval training.

An approach to measuring overall training stress has been added, assigning points to various paces. This approach is similar to TRIMP, but would require far more effort to track and calculate without some type of software.

Where the second edition directed half marathon runners to use either a marathon plan (if they were slow or fast), or a 10K plan (if they were faster), the third edition actually includes a half marathon specific training plan. This plan is 24 weeks long and includes easy, tempo, hard, marathon, long, and repetition training.

The marathon training plans have been expanded.

The novice plan is somewhat similar to the second edition but the specific workouts have changed.

The 2Q plan resembles Plan A from the second edition, but there are now different plans depending on your weekly mileage.

The 12 week plan is actually the last 12 weeks of the elite plan in the second edition.

There is a new plan called the 4-week cycle that is a 26 week plan and is somewhat similar to the old Plan A but every fourth week has no quality workouts.

There are two sets of plans that are more rough outlines than fully specified plans. The five weeks plan gives five weeks that can be repeated and there are three 18 week programs; two by distance and one by time



3.1 Marathon Training Plans

The 3rd edition contains 6 plans; novice, 2Q, 4 week, 5 week, 18 week and 12 week. The novice, 2Q, 4 week and 12 week plans are fully specified while the 5 week and 18 week plans are loose templates on which a plan can be built.

The novice plan is intended for beginners, and uses a run/walk approach for the first half of the plan. The plan is 18 weeks long and specifies 2 to 5 workouts per week. The first 9 weeks have 5 workouts with 2 of them optional. The next 8 weeks have two quality workouts specified, with the recommendation to run 5 days/week, and the last week is a taper. The plan specifies time rather than distance, so the length of the run will depend on your speed. The longest run is 2:30, plus two 2:15 and a 2:00 long run. There are a few interval workouts at Tempo pace.

The 2Q plan is so called because it specifies two quality workouts per week, with all other (easy) running is left up to the individual. The long runs mostly involve variable pace rather than steady easy running. For instance, week 9 of the 41-55 miles/week plan has a 15 mile long run as 2 Easy + 6 Marathon + 1 Easy + 4 Marathon + 1 Tempo + 1 Easy, and a second 14 mile run of 5 Easy + 3x (2 Tempo + 2 min rest) + 1 Tempo + 2 Easy. The workouts change between each of the different plans based on weekly distances. Also, the plans for the lower weekly distances only specify time, not a distance limit, so be cautious about using these plans if you are a faster runner.

The 4-week cycle is a 26 week plan with two quality workouts per week for three weeks, but only easy running on the fourth week. The general pattern of the four weeks is:
No-quality run
A steady long easy run
An easy segment followed by a longer marathon paced segment (e.g. 30 min Easy, 15 miles Marathon).
An interval workout, such as 3 miles E, 3x (3 miles T + 3 min rest), 2x (2 miles T + 2 min rest), 2 miles easy for a total of 18 miles, 13 at tempo pace.

The 2Q and 4-week cycle plans have separate workout tables for different weekly mileage. The plans are for up to 40 miles/64 Km, 41-55 miles/66-89 Km, 56-70 miles/90-113 Km, 71-85 miles/114-137 Km, 86-100 miles/138-161 Km, 101-120 miles/163-194 Km, over 120 miles/194 Km. Yes, that's seven different plans.

The 12 week plan is a tough program intended for elite or highly trained athletes. This plan is the last 12 weeks of the elite plan in the second edition, so if you want to follow this plan you may want to get a copy of the earlier book to have the full 18 weeks.
The a five week cycle provides the workouts for five weeks of training, with the intention that this is repeated as many times as required prior to the race. There, some simple instructions for converting the five week cycle to the last three weeks of tapering before the marathon. This plan is more of a general outline than the other plans, giving rough guidance of what to do rather than a specific workout. For instance, this plan might say Thursday is "R session", and that our sessions should total no more than the lessor of 5% of your weekly mileage or 5 miles, and that of recovery should be 2 to 3 times the length of the interval. Other than that guidance there is a lot of flexibility. This is the only marathon plan that includes I and R paced interval training.

There are three 18 week programs; two by distance and one by time. The two distance programs are equivalent, one being in miles and the other kilometers. These programs have a quality workout every fourth or fifth day, which may make it tricky if you only have time for your long runs at the weekend.

TRR

Would be interested to read the preface to this book! From what AMK has printed above the plans seem to be expanded for different levels of runners but have the plans from edition 2 been modified significantly and if so why? Has his philosophy changed or is this just a way of generating extra cash?

viperlogic

TRR wrote: »

Would be interested to read the preface to this book! From what AMK has printed above the plans seem to be expanded for different levels of runners but have the plans from edition 2 been modified significantly and if so why? Has his philosophy changed or is this just a way of generating extra cash?

From what I remember (dont have book in front of me) his 2nd edition Plan A is also in the 3rd edition but known as the 2Q plan but broken out depending on your weekly mileage, essentially saving the reader in doing some maths. I'm still following plan A for limerick but will review afterwards on what I will do for Amsterdam.

AuldManKing

TRR wrote: »

Would be interested to read the preface to this book! From what AMK has printed above the plans seem to be expanded for different levels of runners but have the plans from edition 2 been modified significantly and if so why? Has his philosophy changed or is this just a way of generating extra cash?

Preface

neilc

I've been following P&D myself for the last few marathons and following a fairly sh1tty last one I've been toying with a change over to Daniels. Not because I think P&D is suddenly bad but it's just I think I need to change things up a bit. The one I'm thinking of is attached, it's his his 4 week cycle program maxing out at 55 miles from the latest edition of the book.
I was just wondering a couple of things. The plan is made up of two Q sessions a week for three weeks out of four. Everything else is regarded as easy runs. The first Q session is meant to be a Sunday assuming that's the day your marathon is. There is mostly a speed aspect to these bar a few which are LSR's (longest 16 miles). The second Q sessions are mostly multi paced speed sessions. Am I right in thinking there are basically no LSR's (6 out of 26 weeks). Should I use the Easy miles to build up to LSR distance on other days. Would that then not make it three Q session weeks. Also does that last week of taper look like a lot of miles. Thoughts??

blockic

neilc wrote: »

I've been following P&D myself for the last few marathons and following a fairly sh1tty last one I've been toying with a change over to Daniels. Not because I think P&D is suddenly bad but it's just I think I need to change things up a bit. The one I'm thinking of is attached, it's his his 4 week cycle program maxing out at 55 miles from the latest edition of the book.
I was just wondering a couple of things. The plan is made up of two Q sessions a week for three weeks out of four. Everything else is regarded as easy runs. The first Q session is meant to be a Sunday assuming that's the day your marathon is. There is mostly a speed aspect to these bar a few which are LSR's (longest 16 miles). The second Q sessions are mostly multi paced speed sessions. Am I right in thinking there are basically no LSR's (6 out of 26 weeks). Should I use the Easy miles to build up to LSR distance on other days. Would that then not make it three Q session weeks. Also does that last week of taper look like a lot of miles. Thoughts??

Good post neilc, was thinking the same thing myself as I was glancing through the new plans.

My thoughts would be that yes, there should be a build up of long runs to supplement the Q session long runs but I've have no experience of Daniels so glad you asked the question.

Krusty i reckon would be a good man to go to in regard to this as he is nearly has shares in Mr. Daniels at this stage I suspect with the daniels marathon cycles he has been though!

adrian522

Daniels always caps his LR at 150 mins, so depending on your speed you will do runs of up to about 18 miles, but usually he will have you do miles of different paces in the middle of the long run to simulate the feeling of running on tired legs without actually having to spend 3+ hours running.

neilc

adrian522 wrote: »

Daniels always caps his LR at 150 mins, so depending on your speed you will do runs of up to about 18 miles, but usually he will have you do miles of different paces in the middle of the long run to simulate the feeling of running on tired legs without actually having to spend 3+ hours running.

Ok, that makes sense. I wonder though, what about on each of the 4th weeks which are just easy miles, would it be ok to throw in 20 or 21 milers there. Think I'd need the confidence of a few 20 milers!

adrian522

I know what you mean, which is why I'm leaning away from Daniels for my first shot at DCM this year.

Krusty_Clown

neilc wrote: »

I've been following P&D myself for the last few marathons and following a fairly sh1tty last one I've been toying with a change over to Daniels. Not because I think P&D is suddenly bad but it's just I think I need to change things up a bit. The one I'm thinking of is attached, it's his his 4 week cycle program maxing out at 55 miles from the latest edition of the book.
I was just wondering a couple of things. The plan is made up of two Q sessions a week for three weeks out of four. Everything else is regarded as easy runs. The first Q session is meant to be a Sunday assuming that's the day your marathon is. There is mostly a speed aspect to these bar a few which are LSR's (longest 16 miles). The second Q sessions are mostly multi paced speed sessions. Am I right in thinking there are basically no LSR's (6 out of 26 weeks). Should I use the Easy miles to build up to LSR distance on other days. Would that then not make it three Q session weeks. Also does that last week of taper look like a lot of miles. Thoughts??

Hi neilc, it goes without saying, that if you opt for one of the lower mileage four week cycle plans (with an easy week), then that's exactly what you get. You won't get significantly long runs, as a good chunk of the mileage is taken up by the quality sessions. In the plan you highlighted, there's still a fairly sizable chunk of quality mileage:
15 miles/100 mins
13 miles (10 @MP)
15 miles (11 @MP)
16 miles/120 mins
16 miles (13 @MP)
17 miles (13 @MP)
16 miles/140 mins
16 miles (14 @MP)
16 miles (13 @MP)
16 miles/140 mins
15 miles (14 @MP)
16 miles (13 @MP)

There's a pretty good chance that if you get through all of that quality mileage (bearing in mind I skipped over all of the shorter tempo-based sessions), then the likelihood is that you won't need to go over the 20 mile mark in training. With all of those marathon pace sessions, it'd certainly be a tough first marathon plan. I could be wrong, but it seems to be aimed at a runner who'd be looking at 8:45/mile or easier (so maybe 3:45+ marathon?). The current philosophy for 4+ hour marathons seems to be to put the emphasis on time on feet, rather than specific mileage targets, as once you go over a certain amount of time on your feet, it starts to get counter-productive (based on an interview I listened to with Pete Pfiztinger on MarathonTalk).

My own personal preference would be to pad out some of those later sessions with additional easy miles to bring them to the 20 mile mark, but that would probably mean going over your weekly targets. In a week that already has 2 x Q sessions, you really shouldn't be considering using some of the easy miles to make an additional long run, as you're correct, that would be a third 'Q' session that week, and it would also leave you with feck all miles to run for the rest of the week (and a little too much quality).

If you're not comfortable with the length of the long runs, I'd either increase the plan's max mileage (for example target a max of 60-65 miles) and use those miles to pad out some of the longer runs with easy miles, or alternatively, just follow one of the higher mileage plans.

neilc

Hi Krusty,
Thanks for the reply. I've always followed the 55 mile p&d plans bar the once when I went for the 70 one. That 70 mile cycle fairly took it out of me in the months after though so I'm weary of going back to that many miles.
I really like the idea of Daniels after following p&d for so long though. There's so much more variety to his sessions. Actually they seem slightly daunting compared to p&d. As you say there's still a sizable chunk of quality there and as you suggest I could pad out the longer runs and increase the weekly mileage up to 60 or so. The only thing that surprises (scares) me is that you think the plan may aimed at 3:45 runners, I was hoping to give my pb one more shot (3:10). Do you base that on the weekly mileage or something else?

viperlogic

Have a look at Jonathan Savages aka fellrnr site http://fellrnr.com/wiki/VDOT_Calculator in which you enter a recent race time and it will calc several different JD training plans for you and paces. He covers "plan A" from 2nd edition and "Plan 2Q" and "4 week cycle plan" from the 3rd edition. I have both the 2nd and 3rd books and I'm currently following "Plan A" from the 2nd edition for a 3:05. I really enjoy "Plan A" as each quality session is interesting rather than just plodding along clocking up slow miles

Note fellrnr doesn't calc both sessions, just the LSR, more than likely for legal reasons, but still a great resource.

Krusty_Clown

neilc wrote: »

Hi Krusty,
Thanks for the reply. I've always followed the 55 mile p&d plans bar the once when I went for the 70 one. That 70 mile cycle fairly took it out of me in the months after though so I'm weary of going back to that many miles.
I really like the idea of Daniels after following p&d for so long though. There's so much more variety to his sessions. Actually they seem slightly daunting compared to p&d. As you say there's still a sizable chunk of quality there and as you suggest I could pad out the longer runs and increase the weekly mileage up to 60 or so. The only thing that surprises (scares) me is that you think the plan may aimed at 3:45 runners, I was hoping to give my pb one more shot (3:10). Do you base that on the weekly mileage or something else?

Hi neilc, from my own experience, there's a significant gain to be had, just from changing the style of plan you're following and coming from a background of P&D, you'll appreciate the flexibility of the JD plan, where you no longer have a day by day schedule, but rather focus on the two key sessions and fit the rest of the miles in, when it's convenient. Definitely worth pursuing.

In terms of who the plan is aimed at, I could be entirely wrong. I'm just basing this on the typical long run in the plan, where it's the lesser of 16 miles or 140 minutes. To do more than 16 miles, you'd have to be running at 8:45/mile or quicker. I overlooked the fact that you wouldn't be running a long run at marathon pace, so probably 3:15-3:20 might be a better estimate. Assuming a vdot of 50 (equivalent to a 3:10 marathon), then a long run at easy pace would be run at 8:32/mile. That means your typical long run will be 14-16 miles (the lesser of 16 miles or 120 minutes).

Comparing this to the second edition Plan A, where the long run might be:
22 miles or 2.5 hours (whichever is less), which gives you: 6:49/mile. So you'd have to be running at 6:49 or quicker to do more than 22 miles.

Like I said, it's entirely conjecture on my part, but if you look at the 56-70 mile plans (page 222/223), then the long runs increase from 16 - 20 miles. That'd still be in your ball-park, right? If for example you established your max at 65 mpw, you'd have four weeks in the entire 18 week plan where you hit max mileage, whereas the more typical mileage would be around 52 miles.

statss

the 86-100 mile 2Q plan is INSANE

adrian522

I need a rest day just reading that!

viperlogic

adrian522 wrote: »

I need a rest day just reading that!

They are not too bad, once you break them down. I put them into a spreadsheet with all the paces/distance/times inserted so easier to follow and modify on the fly if needed

Krusty_Clown

statss wrote: »

the 86-100 mile 2Q plan is INSANE

It looks like a compromise between the old Plan A and the Elite plan. If you delve into it, it's not that bad (a little easier than the elite plan anyway, though it shares a number of common sessions).

RayCun

viperlogic wrote: »

They are not too bad, once you break them down.

4E + 8M + 1T + 6M + 1T +1E
is not that bad, it's worse
:pac:

Krusty_Clown

RayCun wrote: »

4E + 8M + 1T + 6M + 1T +1E
is not that bad, it's worse
:pac:

The equivalent Elite plan session was:
4E + 8M + 1T + 6M + 1T +2E
So a significant reduction in difficulty.

viperlogic

Heads up for anyone else following "Plan A" from 2nd edition, week 23 (week starts on a Sunday), Q2 session is nasty and more than likely a typo as its a week before the marathon!

Q1: 2E + 2x (10-15min T with 3min rest) + 30-45min E
Q2: 2x (35-40min E + 15-20min T) + 2E

opus

Just for a change (from P&D) I was thinking of giving the Daniels plan a lash for Frankfurt in the autumn but have to say that things like this scare me somewhat

viperlogic wrote: »

Q1: 2E + 2x (10-15min T with 3min rest) + 30-45min E
Q2: 2x (35-40min E + 15-20min T) + 2E

viperlogic

opus wrote: »

Just for a change (from P&D) I was thinking of giving the Daniels plan a lash for Frankfurt in the autumn but have to say that things like this scare me somewhat

It's the only one that looks nasty but I'm sure it's a typo in the book, the rest of the weeks are well manageable and very enjoyable

opus

viperlogic wrote: »

It's the only one that looks nasty but I'm sure it's a typo in the book, the rest of the weeks are well manageable and very enjoyable

No I mean the whole terminology scares me, it's like learning a different language

RayCun

Q2 in that case is 10/11 days out from the marathon, and it's not that different from Q1
Q1 = 20/30 min T + 2E + 30-45 min E
Q2 = 30/40min T + 2E + 70/80 min E

so an extra 10 minutes T and 40 minutes E, three days further out
if you've managed all the sessions up to that point I don't think this one is so bad

Krusty_Clown

viperlogic wrote: »

It's the only one that looks nasty but I'm sure it's a typo in the book, the rest of the weeks are well manageable and very enjoyable

That same session exists two weeks earlier (week 4), so it's not the only one that looks nasty. I certainly wouldn't describe all of the other sessions as enjoyable. Achievable yes, but enjoyable would be stretching things. Week 5 for example: 2E + 4 x1T + 10E + 4x1T + 2E is a nice tough session. Not a patch on the Elite plan (or the above 3rd edition) but still a challenging 22 mile session.

viperlogic

opus wrote: »

No I mean the whole terminology scares me, it's like learning a different language

Ah, I was the same and was flicking backwards and forwards non-stop through the book. Much easier to just use http://fellrnr.com/wiki/VDOT_Calculator for your E, T, I/Hard, MP paces

Krusty_Clown

RayCun wrote: »

Q2 in that case is 10/11 days out from the marathon, and it's not that different from Q1
Q1 = 20/30 min T + 2E + 30-45 min E
Q2 = 30/40min T + 2E + 70/80 min E

so an extra 10 minutes T and 40 minutes E, three days further out
if you've managed all the sessions up to that point I don't think this one is so bad

Q2 is a 20+ mile session, a week and a half from your goal marathon. Most certainly a typo. The equivalent Elite plan session is 3x2T, if I remember correctly.

RayCun

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Q2 is a 20+ mile session

For some people!

viperlogic

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

That same session exists two weeks earlier (week 4), so it's not the only one that looks nasty. I certainly wouldn't describe all of the other sessions as enjoyable. Achievable yes, but enjoyable would be stretching things. Week 5 for example: 2E + 4 x1T + 10E + 4x1T + 2E is a nice tough session. Not a patch on the Elite plan (or the above 3rd edition) but still a challenging 22 mile session.

Maybe my choice of words is not the best, but there is a great feeling of achievement once they are done. Looking at it as a whole at first you think to yourself how am I going to do this but once out on the road I love the challenge of each interval. Towards the end you think how am I going to do another T interval, my legs are shot but some how when my Garmin starts the beep count down to the next interval a surge of energy comes from somewhere to get me through it. Maybe I'm just weird!!

Krusty_Clown

viperlogic wrote: »

Maybe my choice of words is not the best, but there is a great feeling of achievement once they are done. Looking at it as a whole at first you think to yourself how am I going to do this but once out on the road I love the challenge of each interval. Towards the end you think how am I going to do another T interval, my legs are shot but some how when my Garmin starts the beep count down to the next interval a surge of energy comes from somewhere to get me through it. Maybe I'm just weird!!

Out of curiosity, what were your before and after marathon times?

viperlogic

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Out of curiosity, what were your before and after marathon times?

3:28 in Waterford in June last year. All going well, aiming for 3:05 in Limerick next week thou trained at paces for a 3:00

Krusty_Clown

viperlogic wrote: »

3:28 in Waterford in June last year. All going well, aiming for 3:05 in Limerick next week thou trained at paces for a 3:00

What did you use for the max weekly mileage figure? Best of luck with it. Let us know how it goes.

viperlogic

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

What did you use for the max weekly mileage figure? Best of luck with it. Let us know how it goes.

Max weekly was 50miles as was cycling also. Plan is to up the max for Amsterdam.

jfh

good timing with this tread, i have just started the "4 weeks cycle plan" 56 -70 miles, in the 3rd edition, i like the fact that every fourth week is an easy week so hope to fit in a race.
i also like the flexibility of the schedule, 2 days a week, i can commit to that, all the rest easy.
my only concern is the lack of long runs, thanks to whoever posted the link to fellrunner, makes the plan far more transparent there's only 2 runs over 20 miles.

i know krusty used JD plan A to great effect in london for sub 2:40, perhaps if your reading this you might let me know, you max milage in that plan.
my goal is 2:45, so thinking 70 might be a little low, if i went for the 71 -85 plan, it would push out the amount of runs over 20 miles to 5.
any thoughts appreciated.

cianc

qq for the experts: my plan was to go with plan A from the second edition. Is it worth picking up a copy of the third edition and switching to one of the newer plans? Maybe too early to say since it's just out, but I'm sure people have opinions, and I'd like to hear them.

tunguska

cianc wrote: »

qq for the experts: my plan was to go with plan A from the second edition. Is it worth picking up a copy of the third edition and switching to one of the newer plans? Maybe too early to say since it's just out, but I'm sure people have opinions, and I'd like to hear them.

I suppose if you never did plan A (from 2nd ed) it wont make a difference. Both solid plans really. Most important thing is to give yourself 3 - 4 weeks slack though. Theyre tough training plans and you'll probably start to feel a bit cooked after a few weeks, so its good to be able to take a week of easy running to allow your body time to bounce back.

jfh

tunguska wrote: »

I suppose if you never did plan A (from 2nd ed) it wont make a difference. Both solid plans really. Most important thing is to give yourself 3 - 4 weeks slack though. Theyre tough training plans and you'll probably start to feel a bit cooked after a few weeks, so its good to be able to take a week of easy running to allow your body time to bounce back.

Yeah that was the reason I was going with the 4 week cycle plan, never did plan A. Cianc let me know if you want a Pic of the 4 week cycle PM'd

cianc

jfh wrote: »

Yeah that was the reason I was going with the 4 week cycle plan, never did plan A. Cianc let me know if you want a Pic of the 4 week cycle PM'd

Yes please!

Krusty_Clown

jfh wrote: »

i know krusty used JD plan A to great effect in london for sub 2:40, perhaps if your reading this you might let me know, you max milage in that plan.
my goal is 2:45, so thinking 70 might be a little low, if i went for the 71 -85 plan, it would push out the amount of runs over 20 miles to 5.
any thoughts appreciated.

Hi jfh, I maxed at 100 mpw both times I followed the plan, but to be honest, I don't think it's absolutely necessary. You really have to establish what is the right level of mileage for you. Take smmoore for example, he ran sub 2:40 in October, and if I remember correctly, he would have maxed out at about 65-75 mpw. For me, mileage has been a progression thing, year on year increasing the mileage gradually, and it seems to work for me, as I think that it's thanks to the consistent mileage that I've managed to largely avoid injury and continue to make progress, so it meets my needs. It's also worth remembering that you only hit peak mileage for 3 or 4 weeks of the plan, so over the course of the 18 week plan, you probably average around 85% (or 85 miles in my case), so it's not as hard as it looks on paper. Sure, those 100% weeks can be tough, particularly with the two tough sessions, but you come out the other side feeling particularly strong. As Tunguska suggested, always good to plan a down week or two in the schedule, for when you need it (like holidays, illness, injury or just over-tiredness).

I found that it was important not to be concerned about pace for the easy miles in the plan. Based on my vdot at the time, easy pace would've been around 7:15/mile, but the day after a Q session, I'd just go with the flow, and the pace would end up being closer to to 7:50/mile. After a day or two, it naturally picked up again, and 7:00/mile felt easy. So I'd recommend trying to hit the Q sessions on target, and just chill and let the legs and body decide the pace for the easy stuff.

jfh

krusty, you made some good points there, particularly not to be too focused on the E runs. realistically i dont have the mileage in the legs to anything over 70, maybe i'm over cautious. peaked at 70 last time & thought it was my peak.
i'll start off with the 55 - 70 and if i'm feeling ok, may up it a tad
thanks again

jfh

cianc wrote: »

Yes please!

Pm sent

cianc

jfh wrote: »

Pm sent

That actually looks tailor made for where I am in mileage and time until Frankfurt. Time to fire up the kindle. Thanks jfh.

viperlogic

Below is a table I have made of the Q1 sessions from the 2Q Plan from the 3rd edition

weekly max|1|2|3|4|5|6|7|8|9|10|11|12|13|14|15|16|17|18
-40 miles|11|12|11|11|11|12|12|13|14|15|16|16|16|15|17|17|12|10
41-55 miles|14|13|15|15|15|16|16|15|16|15|17|17|17|17|17|17|15|10
56-70 miles|16|15|16|16|16|17|17|16|18|16|17|20|17|17|20|17|15|13
71-85 miles|18|18|18|18|18|19|19|19|20|18|18|20|18|16|18|18|16|13
86-100 miles|20|21|22|20|20|21|21|22|21|18|21|22|19|18|20|19|16|14
101-120 miles|21|21|23|21|20|20|22|22|21|19|21|22|20|20|21|20|16|14
120+ miles|21|21|23|21|20|20|22|22|21|19|22|22|21|20|21|20|16|14


As you can see, no 20 milers until your max is 56 to 70 miles, and then only two of them. But in saying that, there are a lot of long sessions in both Q1 and Q2, so plenty time on the feet.

Still not sure will I move to this or 4 week cycle yet for Amsterdam. Pretty happy with "Plan A" from 2nd edition

jfh

viperlogic wrote: »

Below is a table I have made of the Q1 sessions from the 2Q Plan from the 3rd edition

weekly max|1|2|3|4|5|6|7|8|9|10|11|12|13|14|15|16|17|18
-40 miles|11|12|11|11|11|12|12|13|14|15|16|16|16|15|17|17|12|10
41-55 miles|14|13|15|15|15|16|16|15|16|15|17|17|17|17|17|17|15|10
56-70 miles|16|15|16|16|16|17|17|16|18|16|17|20|17|17|20|17|15|13
71-85 miles|18|18|18|18|18|19|19|19|20|18|18|20|18|16|18|18|16|13
86-100 miles|20|21|22|20|20|21|21|22|21|18|21|22|19|18|20|19|16|14
101-120 miles|21|21|23|21|20|20|22|22|21|19|21|22|20|20|21|20|16|14
120+ miles|21|21|23|21|20|20|22|22|21|19|22|22|21|20|21|20|16|14


As you can see, no 20 milers until your max is 56 to 70 miles, and then only two of them. But in saying that, there are a lot of long sessions in both Q1 and Q2, so plenty time on the feet.

Still not sure will I move to this or 4 week cycle yet for Amsterdam. Pretty happy with "Plan A" from 2nd edition

nice table!
with a 70 mile max in plan A, you get three 20 miles + so only one more.
the biggest difference i can see, is that the 4 week cycle plan does not have the long easy run after a session.
for instance in plan A, there's a few sessions where you do mile repeats at T pace and then do an hour of E.
there seems to be more running on tired legs in plan A, this is just my view while supping some beer, havn't tore it apart.

average_runner

The 5-10k plan looks alot different to the old one, anyone any experience with the new one? 40- miles

Itziger

Well, I'm still hanging in there with the 2Q plan from the 3rd edition. There are a couple of the hard sessions still to come that have me wondering (read, 'quaking') and the percentage of weekly mileage for the last couple of weeks is something I might tamper with as well.

To start with that last point, I notice that the A plan calls for 60% of max mileage for the second last week whereas this 3rd ed plan calls for 80%. As someone who goes well fresh I think I prefer the 60% and that's not just me being lazy. While I have been ok with the last 4 or 5 Q sessions, I do wonder about the likes of this from 7 weeks out- bear in mind it's the midweek workout: 2E+8M+2x(2T w/2 min rec) +2E

Here's hoping I have a quiet day at work before that!! I'm also looking forward to the midweek two weeks from now:2E+12M+2E.

Btw, this is the 56 to 70 mile version.