Treadmill running

iancairns

With the weather being so poor last 2 weeks I've taken up treadmill running and got to really enjoy aspects of it.

Am I right that running on treadmill can be just as beneficial as running out doors?

I know you're not exposed to the elements but if you put it on 1% incline it's similar to running outside?

I'm targeting around 3:10-3:15 in Paris marathon this year but have been able to clock 10miles on the treadmill at 3:45min/km or 6:05min/mile the other day and could probably keep that up for another 3 miles.

I'm wondering then can I replicate these times outdoors and is 3:15 a conservative goal in marathon?

Thanks!

Ian

TFBubendorfer

The pace on a treadmill is often unreliable and changes as the belt wears out, so take those figures with a pinch of salt.

1% incline is the standard advice, but if that really works out as equivalent to road running is anyone's guess.

The stride on a treadmill is slightly different than the one on the road, so it's never exactly the same as outside running.

The main problem, however, is that your legs must be accustomed to the pounding you get on the road if you're training for a road marathon. While that does not say you cannot do any treadmill running, the majority of the runs still needs to be on the road. Treadmill can be used to supplement running, but it should not be the mainstay.

28064212

+1 to everything TFBubendorfer said.

Also, what are you going to do if the conditions aren't very nice in Paris? While I accept they're probably going to be better than Ireland in January, it doesn't guarantee they won't be adverse. You can't exactly decide to hop on a treadmill there!

iancairns

Hi guys,

Thanks for the responses, and i'm well aware weather might be bad in Paris.

I've only ran 3 times on treadmill and like i said last time i clocked a pretty good pace for me so wondering if i can replicate that outdoors.

You're right though, nothing beats the experience of running outdoors, just when its THIS bad out its nice to go to treadmill which has given me belief that i can run faster than i thought was capable.

Yeah, concerned about this myself, getting in 3 or so circa 15kms on treadmills per week and hoping it's not counter productive - think it may be a bit excessive but...it's just darn easy and warm and bright in that gym.

Trying to at least get one long trail run in at weekends so my legs don't completely lose the feel of proper running. But really think I have to wean myself off the treadmill. Is the complaint about it that it's just not as effective as road running, or can it be in fact detrimental?

TFBubendorfer

iancairns wrote: »

I've only ran 3 times on treadmill and like i said last time i clocked a pretty good pace for me so wondering if i can replicate that outdoors.

If you can indeed run 6:05 pace for 10 miles in training then yes, 3:10-15 would be a very conservative target. In fact, you should easily be able to go sub-3 in that case, assuming that you are training properly for a marathon. But like I said, pace on a treadmill doesn't mean much.

The only way to confirm (or not ) is to run the same distance on the road and see what you can produce there.

echancrure

My 2c

- I find putting the climb to 1.5 percent makes it harder than running outside at the same pace so that's what I do.

- regarding the pounding : I use really, really crap shoes for treadmill runs with no cushioning and at 1.5 climb the bounce you get from a treadmill is not as much as with a 0 zero climb. So yes the pounding is not as hard as on the road, but that can be a good thing too as long that it is not the only running you do (actually treadmill must be the good place to start running with minimalist / bare foot running)

- I find treadmill fantastic for :
- tempo runs (you can plan in advance and see your progress from months to months)
- hill training (there are really no hills round where I live, or they are too dodgy traffic wise)
- speed training (you can be very precise on the distance and speed without finding a track or having to worry about dogs, traffic, prams, teenagers, old ladies, cars coming out of a drive etc.)

So as part of your training once or twice a week I can only see benefits unless you are blessed with rich natural running grounds and decent weather all year round.

cheers

Hard Worker

iancairns wrote: »

With the weather being so poor last 2 weeks I've taken up treadmill running and got to really enjoy aspects of it.

Am I right that running on treadmill can be just as beneficial as running out doors?

I know you're not exposed to the elements but if you put it on 1% incline it's similar to running outside?

I'm targeting around 3:10-3:15 in Paris marathon this year but have been able to clock 10miles on the treadmill at 3:45min/km or 6:05min/mile the other day and could probably keep that up for another 3 miles.

I'm wondering then can I replicate these times outdoors and is 3:15 a conservative goal in marathon?

Thanks!

Ian

If you found the weather to be poor the past couple of weeks, then there is possibly a case to say that you are too soft. My advice is to steer well clear of treadmills. They are not for runners. They are probably ok if you are doing some kind of circuits indoors. Absolutely no reason why anyone training for a marathon would do any training on a treadmill.

PDCAT

Agree with above. i use a treadmill twice per week, mainly for recovery run's. Any other day i run, i'll run on the road or track.
I run at 1% incline on the treadmill. Reason i use the treadmill is it saves on time. I've two little ones at home and need/want to spend time with them after work before their bed times.

Use the treadmill during my lunchtime in work as it allows me the time in the evening. If you can get out on the road, id recommend it over treadmill anyday.

Hard Worker

Hard Worker wrote: »

If you found the weather to be poor the past couple of weeks, then there is possibly a case to say that you are too soft. My advice is to steer well clear of treadmills. They are not for runners. They are probably ok if you are doing some kind of circuits indoors. Absolutely no reason why anyone training for a marathon would do any training on a treadmill.

Ah surely that's a bit of an overstatement?

Christine Clark did most of her training on a treadmill. She ran a 2.31.35 in Sydney.

I'd take that time.

The Internet is littered with tales of other runners who have reached a pretty high standard on treadmills. While clearly they are not ideal, surely a statement as sweeping as "they are not for runners" ignores the runners who have done pretty darn well.

TFBubendorfer

HW's statement might have been harsh, but at the core of it I do agree with him.

If you think the weather in the last 2 weeks has been too harsh for running outside you need to either adjust your attitude or pick a different sport.

Outdoor sports don't stop just because it's windy and/or raining.

TFBubendorfer

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

HW's statement might have been harsh, but at the core of it I do agree with him.

If you think the weather in the last 2 weeks has been too harsh for running outside you need to either adjust your attitude or pick a different sport.

Outdoor sports don't stop just because it's windy and/or raining.

Oh I like bad weather of a kind, I welcome snow and ice as it means winter climbing conditions and crampons.

And let's face it, when you hear road runners wringing their hands about the lack of water stations (Killarney) or the race starting 13 minutes late (Dungarvan) or the distance being out a few metres (Blarney), I think climbers object to being told to get a grip about conditions for outdoor sports! There are plenty of road runners who will whine about very very little indeed.

I enjoy a muddy splatter through rain on weekends. But running at night time on roads in bad weather...I never plan to do a road run at night anyway so it just has less appeal for me.

BeepBeep67

I wasn't complaining this morning when I rolled out of bed, heard the rain lashing against the window, threw on a tee shirt and shorts and hit the treadie for a 40min recovery run .
I now only use the treadie for recovery runs unless there is an exceptional reason, but I do like the fact it's there and very easy to get an early morning run or if I'm working from the house I can hop on at lunch time or in between meetings.
My preference is outdoors for everything else.

PaulieC

BeepBeep67 wrote: »

I wasn't complaining this morning when I rolled out of bed, heard the rain lashing against the window, threw on a tee shirt and shorts and hit the treadie for a 40min recovery run .

I'm not sure why, but I always assumed that in the privacy of one's own home and one owned a treadmill, that short shorts and no top would be the way to go ? Maybe it's just me

BeepBeep67

PaulieC wrote: »

I'm not sure why, but I always assumed that in the privacy of one's own home and one owned a treadmill, that short shorts and no top would be the way to go ? Maybe it's just me

Check out the video blog :pac:

Krusty_Clown

Deleted User wrote: »

And let's face it, when you hear road runners wringing their hands about the lack of water stations (Killarney) or the race starting 13 minutes late (Dungarvan) or the distance being out a few metres (Blarney), I think climbers object to being told to get a grip about conditions for outdoor sports! There are plenty of road runners who will whine about very very little indeed.

Some whine; others just get on with it. We probably have the best year-round running climate in the world. No reason to hit the treadmill, unless you have an obligation, like minding children.

By the way, there is no excuse for a short course.... Ever.

Krusty_Clown

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

By the way, there is no excuse for a short course.... Ever.

Oh they should be correctly measured.

And I'd accept that for very good runners who, say, may be going for a PB, it's annoying.

But some of the posts about that Blarney race, by people who were barely breaking sweat/jogging speed but had some top of the range Garmin telling them the distance was out a few metres...perspective was needed.

I also agree about the weather here in general...but we've had some...um...well frankly hole-opening storms over Christmas and since.

Krusty_Clown

My initial reply was a knee jerk reaction (probably fuelled by performing a set of hill sprint drills this morning, in manky conditions) and my inherent hatred for treadmills. I do see instances where a treadmill would be useful for a running athlete, which I conveniently over-looked like:
1) Maintaining HR in a specific zone
2) Normalizing external influences so you can zone in on specifics, like running form
3) Ice
However, for general running (outside of icy conditions), in my opinion, a treadmill doesn't add anything, and takes so, so much away.

shamrock55

I was ment to do run 8miles today as part of a training programme but due to the weather outdoor running might not be a good idea, what i want to know is would 8 miles on a treadmill be the same

ger664

Deleted User wrote: »

And let's face it, when you hear road runners wringing their hands about the lack of water stations (Killarney) or the race starting 13 minutes late (Dungarvan) or the distance being out a few metres (Blarney), I think climbers object to being told to get a grip about conditions for outdoor sports! There are plenty of road runners who will whine about very very little indeed.

In fairness lack of water in Killarney was on a day where the temperatures where over 24 degrees @ 9 in the morning and climbing. However runners abusing voulenteers/marshals on the day was uncalled for.

As regards the subject running on a treadmill and running on a road are 2 completely different animals and no amount of adjusting the incline is going to make up for it.

Krusty_Clown

shamrock55 wrote: »

I was ment to do run 8miles today as part of a training programme but due to the weather outdoor running might not be a good idea, what i want to know is would 8 miles on a treadmill be the same

Why wouldn't it be a good idea? Unless you happen to live on the Atlantic coast, or a flooded area like Limerick, it's just a bit of wind and icy rain. If it means missing out on your 8 mile training session, then by all means hit the treadmill. But that first day that you make that conscious decision to take the soft option instead of running outdoors, you're opening a door for yourself. But safety and the integrity of your run comes first, so do what you have to do.

Here's what the good Lord Daniels has to say on the subject:

Lord Daniels wrote:

While you should be flexible when weather threatens your training, running under adverse, yet safe, conditions often strengthens confidence.

jfh

I know treadmills are knocked a lot & there's no way I train for a marathon on one but I found it brilliant last year for coming back from an injury, did a lot of tempo runs, there's no way I'd have stuck the intensity on the road. So not a bad way to get some 10k sessions..

DogSlySmile

Say you're training for a race in the alps. We don't have alps in Ireland. So would a treadie sesh of 3 x 15 min (or similar) at 15% incline be considered good training? Think I'd rather that than head up and down killiney hill over and over and over to get the same amount of climbing time :eek:

shamrock55

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Why wouldn't it be a good idea? Unless you happen to live on the Atlantic coast, or a flooded area like Limerick, it's just a bit of wind and icy rain. If it means missing out on your 8 mile training session, then by all means hit the treadmill. But that first day that you make that conscious decision to take the soft option instead of running outdoors, you're opening a door for yourself. But safety and the integrity of your run comes first, so do what you have to do.

Here's what the good Lord Daniels has to say on the subject:

I do live on atlantic coast as it happens (bantry) i went out a couple of days ago with winds not as bad as today and i was blown all over the place, anyway i did the treadmill in the end, it was so bloody boreing though

opus

DogSlySmile wrote: »

Say you're training for a race in the alps. We don't have alps in Ireland. So would a treadie sesh of 3 x 15 min (or similar) at 15% incline be considered good training? Think I'd rather that than head up and down killiney hill over and over and over to get the same amount of climbing time :eek:

I made use of the 'mill training for the Comrades up run last year, basically ran from 11-13 miles most Fri evenings on the random hill program & upped the level by one each week. Think I got to level 12 by the end. Doing it again this year but started earlier so was at level 9 last Fri (varied from 0.5% to 7.1%), will be interested to see what it gets to by next May

Keep the same pace so interesting to see how hr varies depending on the incline.

Muff Richardson

the treadmill debate and the pure runner bravado that goes along with it on this site is mostly just that, bravado, topped off with a whole load of conjecture because most of us have not done enough of either to compare. a treadmill can be as tough or as soft as you set it to be, same with a road run.

ran 3 marathons following p&d 55 and did the same on a treadmill for the entirety my 4th (due to not having the option of road running where i was)...ran a pb for the fourth.

is the treadmill boring as f*ck compared to road running? yep...for me anyway it is. maybe that is the real debate here.

Is 1% incline supposed to make it comparable to running outside for difficulty? I must start doing that so

shamrock55

bluewolf wrote: »

Is 1% incline supposed to make it comparable to running outside for difficulty? I must start doing that so

Apparently so, thats what i did today anyway

Krusty_Clown

Muff Richardson wrote: »

the treadmill debate and the pure runner bravado that goes along with it on this site is mostly just that, bravado, topped off with a whole load of conjecture because most of us have not done enough of either to compare. a treadmill can be as tough or as soft as you set it to be, same with a road run.

Is that your opinion, as someone who has 'done enough of either'? I'm sure you can run a pb on your fourth attempt at a marathon program, but how can you be sure that your pb would not have been significantly greater, had you trained outside?

I have no doubt that once treadmill 'races' become a real prospect, then treadmill running will become an ideal form of preparation, but until then, I would hypothesize that the best way to train for an outdoor race, is to train outdoors (much in the same vein that you would train to climb a mountain by climbing mountains).

nerraw1111

DogSlySmile wrote: »

Say you're training for a race in the alps. We don't have alps in Ireland. So would a treadie sesh of 3 x 15 min (or similar) at 15% incline be considered good training? Think I'd rather that than head up and down killiney hill over and over and over to get the same amount of climbing time :eek:

Timothy Olson does sessions on the treadmill. I put up a link over on the imra thread.

cianc

bluewolf wrote: »

Is 1% incline supposed to make it comparable to running outside for difficulty? I must start doing that so

This is worth a read (tl;dr - probably not necessary for the speed that a lot of treadmill sessions are done at):
http://www.hillrunner.com/jim2/id110.html

echancrure

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Is that your opinion, as someone who has 'done enough of either'? I'm sure you can run a pb on your fourth attempt at a marathon program, but how can you be sure that your pb would not have been significantly greater, had you trained outside?

I have no doubt that once treadmill 'races' become a real prospect, then treadmill running will become an ideal form of preparation, but until then, I would hypothesize that the best way to train for an outdoor race, is to train outdoors (much in the same vein that you would train to climb a mountain by climbing mountains).

Will all due respect Krusty: that similarity kind of argument does not all much water at all.
I hate the softie argument too.

drquirky

echancrure wrote: »

Will all due respect Krusty: that similarity kind of argument does not all much water at all.
I hate the softie argument too.

How does that completely logical argument not hold water? Also, people who are afraid to train outside in bad weather are in fact, soft.

BeepBeep67

15% of my running is on the tredie, it's a handy alternative and good supplement to my overall training, but I wouldn't like to be relying on it solely to hit a target time.
Balance is key.

Krusty_Clown

echancrure wrote: »

Will all due respect Krusty: that similarity kind of argument does not all much water at all.
I hate the softie argument too.

Ah yes, the famous Chewbacca defense. I can't out-argue that! You win. Treadmills for all.

ultrapercy

drquirky wrote: »

How does that completely logical argument not hold water? Also, people who are afraid to train outside in bad weather are in fact, soft.

I think people who live away from the west coast dont really understand how unforgiving the conditions can be. Im on a 48 day streak of running and only 2 of those days have been any way enjoyable. In 19 winters of training this is the most testing I have encountered. I didn't miss a day in the freeze up a couple of years ago and it was infinitely easier than this. Today is good tho. The unrelenting cycle of wind, hail, waterlogged roads/tracks wet shoes and gear makes running almost a second job. If people can relieve the mental and physical burden by doing an odd run on a treadmill that can only be a good thing. Everyone isn't Fanulph Fiennes. It isn't for me however.

TFBubendorfer

Muff Richardson wrote: »

the treadmill debate and the pure runner bravado that goes along with it on this site is mostly just that, bravado

No.

Bravado would be "I'm so incredibly f***ing tough, I can run in wind and rain and hail".

Nobody has been saying anything like that - quite the opposite, in fact. Running in wind and rain isn't particularly hard.

silverharp

for family reasons Ive joined a leisure club in Dublin so have used a gym for the first time. While I havnt used a treadmill much I do a half hour on a high setting on an elliptical cross trainer and I find it great, I get my heartbeat higher then I would get out jogging and the resistance setting mimics going uphill which I wouldnt get on a mid week run. So this weekend I went to the gym yesterday and did an hour in the gym, 30min cross trainer and 30 minutes upper body work and today did a 10k run. If I had just gone for a run on Sat I'd have done nothing today as I dont run 2 days in a row.
So the gym is supplementary for sure but I think it can add to the overall working out in a week which has to be a good thing.

TFBubendorfer

ultrapercy wrote: »

I think people who live away from the west coast dont really understand how unforgiving the conditions can be

I live about 2 miles from the coast, far enough away for the high tide not to worry me but close enough to get a good feel what the conditions are like. I wouldn't have been running in the conditions we had at about 2am Saturday night, that's certainly true, but those brutal storm fronts usually don't last for the entire day. When I went out at around 9:30 it was still windy but bearable.

RayCun

silverharp wrote: »

I dont run 2 days in a row.

!!!

silverharp

RayCun wrote: »

!!!

generally never have, I have gone with the idea of having recovery days for jogging. Ideally I'd do two different activities two days in a row, cycle one and run the next for instance

drquirky

silverharp wrote: »

generally never have, I have gone with the idea of having recovery days for jogging. Ideally I'd do two different activities two days in a row, cycle one and run the next for instance

Whatever floats your boat but pretty hard to improve this way! You do realise you can recover by running easier/ right? In face many would argue (myself included) these "recovery runs" actually do more to promote healing and ease muscle stress/soreness than taking days off.

echancrure

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Ah yes, the famous Chewbacca defense. I can't out-argue that! You win. Treadmills for all.

I just wanted to point out that because a marathon is run outdoor the best training has to be outdoor too cannot be the whole story otherwise you end up in a situation where the best training for a marathon is to run a marathon: the similarity argument cannot be used to discount other form of training.

I think most people who have defended treadmills on this thread are talking about using it once or twice a week as part of a 5 or 6 day marathon training regime.

I hold that view myself: to dismiss it because it is not outdoor or not the same thing as running a marathon etc. is a rather poor logical argument.


Hope this helps.

Peace and Love

Muff Richardson

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Is that your opinion, as someone who has 'done enough of either'? I'm sure you can run a pb on your fourth attempt at a marathon program, but how can you be sure that your pb would not have been significantly greater, had you trained outside?

sorry, read back on that and i should have that most of us have not done enough of either in equal measure, not that i had done a lot more of both!

it would be a good study to do a extended period of treadmill training alone (utilized correctly) and road running to see the precise pros and cons...there are pros and cons to both, no doubt about this. you dont seem to accept that the treadmill does have pros over the road in some capacity.

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

I have no doubt that once treadmill 'races' become a real prospect, then treadmill running will become an ideal form of preparation,

lay off the aul sarcasm eh, only if its funny tho which that wasn't

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

I would hypothesize that the best way to train for an outdoor race, is to train outdoors (much in the same vein that you would train to climb a mountain by climbing mountains).

the mountain climbing example isnt great, an awful lot of mountain climbing training is done indoors on treadmills, stairmasters, and biking in chambers...and for the more technical climbs indoor walls are used extensively, mountains aren't on doorsteps like running outdoors...but i get what you are trying to say although dont agree.

Muff Richardson

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

No.

Bravado would be "I'm so incredibly f***ing tough, I can run in wind and rain and hail".

not too far off it in this thread and multiple others from certain posters regarding treadmill running.

TFBubendorfer

<mod>Since this thread has gone way off-topic I'm closing it before it goes completely into the personal insults territory.

Some of you need to learn that a discussion does not mean attacking anyone who disagrees with you.</mod>