Dublin Airport Development 2014

Khuitlio

Hi just wondering if anyone has any idea whether we'll see plans for the following emerge this year:

Redeveloped pier A
Redeveloped pier B
New pier F

In DAAs strategy for 2010-2014 they state that €7million will be allocated for the planning of the above piers, so that as soon as the need arises for the new piers planning will already be in place. They reckon the piers will be need 2015-2019.

I've attached their masterplan, my sketch of it (as you can see I'm not artist!) and their summary of the development of the new piers.

dubdaymo

They seem to have completely left out one vital ingredient from the mixture. Anyone else care to guess what it is, LOL?.

IRLConor

dubdaymo wrote: »

They seem to have completely left out one vital ingredient from the mixture. Anyone else care to guess what it is, LOL?.

Cargo? Wouldn't pier F be built over the current cargo facilities at 411-414?

Khuitlio

dubdaymo wrote: »

They seem to have completely left out one vital ingredient from the mixture. Anyone else care to guess what it is, LOL?.

Lack of ambition, foresight or money?

Irish Steve

So many things missing

Cargo parking and ramp space to work on the aircraft, it's not just a box to put the aircraft in, a large cargo aircraft needs a lot of pallet dollies, and they don't stack vertically.

Space for all the other things that have to be put somewhere airside, like steps for the rear door, baggage containers, stuff like that.

General Aviation (biz jets etc) stands and access

Remote parking to put things on that are not needed for some while, like standby aircraft.

Usual DAA nonsense, the way they "extended" T1 from an operational aspect was a shambles, whoever designed it had never moved a suitcase or a container of bags in their life, and it was and is a total disaster to operate in a high volume environment, and if a special requirement flight like an Israeli aircraft is coming in, the whole thing becomes a nightmare because of the way that the baggage hall doesn't work.

The landside access is still the disastrous split level no brain nonsense of the set down road that's full of pedestrians so doesn't flow, and nowhere to do a quick pick up of passengers that have arrived,

Lack of imagination, lack of foresight, lack of awareness of what the customer wants.

dubdaymo

Irish Steve has just about summed up the DAA in a few sentences. Total incompetence and a lack of any knowledge of how to run an airport. The omission I was referring to was the crosswind runway. The need to have one at DUB was never more demonstrated than in recent times.

Dublinflyer

It's great that we have so many aviation experts in this country who are more than willing to offer their expertise to the daa. While building terminal 2 they were quick to point out that it was too big and not needed at the time but the daa went ahead and built anyway. Which is lucky as it is completely full with all the new routes running from Dublin over the summer. The same blind ignorance is leading them down the road of looking to plan for expansion again using current real estate resources but maybe their dumb luck will strike again.

flanzer

I see people are still reading and believing Michael O'Leary's Old testament.

Don't ya know he's turned the page, and is an all round nice guy now

CaptainSkidmark

What happened to Pier C?

If it went ahead as per the sketch they would have to re letter them, Its shocking.

flanzer

CaptainSkidmark wrote: »

What happened to Pier C?

If it went ahead as per the sketch they would have to re letter them, Its shocking.

That gets me onto the next point. How old is this document?? daa have renamed the Piers 1,2,3,4 now. A, B, D, E are a thing of the past

Tenger

flanzer wrote: »

That gets me onto the next point. How old is this document?? daa have renamed the Piers 1,2,3,4 now. A, B, D, E are a thing of the past

The plan in the 2nd link above is at least 4-5 years old. I saw it around the time T2 was competed. It was part of a section entitled "Dublin Airport 2035".

Khuitlio

Tenger wrote: »

The plan in the 2nd link above is at least 4-5 years old. I saw it around the time T2 was competed. It was part of a section entitled "Dublin Airport 2035".

Wasn't actually aware that the piers had been renamed, it makes sense that they would do that though.

Although the document is from 2009, it was post crash so has factored this in surely?

The terminals are starting to get busier, and this summer they should definitely be very busy with all the new routes. Personally I think it would be a step in the right direction for them to begin planning airport expansion so that when need it will have a much shorter lead in time.

However I think that they should also be looking to get maximum efficiencies from the infrastructure they have at present before they begin expanding.

I agree that 'Pier F' is in an awful position and would require the cargo facilities to be moved, however I can't see a better alternative, ideally T2 wouldn't have been built where it is. I guess DAA now how to make the most of its location.

Jamie2k9

Wasn't actually aware that the piers had been renamed, it makes sense that they would do that though.

It does and it doesn't. Studies have shown that passengers find it easier to recognise gate numbers with a letter and a number instead of a number. D10 to 101. It may not be such an issue at DUB but at major international airports they have/are changing to letter/number style.

Dublinflyer

Irish Steve wrote: »

The landside access is still the disastrous split level no brain nonsense of the set down road that's full of pedestrians so doesn't flow, and nowhere to do a quick pick up of passengers that have arrived,

The problem with having an area for "quick pickups" of passengers is that you get the five minute brigade taking it over and ending up sitting there for 20 minutes. It also leads to people stopping and waiting for a space to come free and clog up the approach road and that will delay everyone and is just dangerous.

urajoke

Dublinflyer wrote: »

The problem with having an area for "quick pickups" of passengers is that you get the five minute brigade taking it over and ending up sitting there for 20 minutes. It also leads to people stopping and waiting for a space to come free and clog up the approach road and that will delay everyone and is just dangerous.

I agree fully. Look at most car parks where parent and child and disabled spaces are used by people who have neither a child or a disabled person in the car, who consider those spaces are there purely for their convenience to run into the shop for "5mins".

urajoke

Dublin airport is drastically short of wide body stands and even those at T2 double job as two narrow body stands. So when a non Aer Lingus US arrival lands or Etihad in the morning they have to wait sometimes up to an hour for a stand.

Unfortunately T2 is too popular with the majors as very few if any heavies go to T1 leaving plenty of space over there. The DAA may have to look at encouraging some to move but I doubt that will happen.

Jamie2k9

Dublin airport is drastically short of wide body stands and even those at T2 double job as two narrow body stands. So when a non Aer Lingus US arrival lands or Etihad in the morning they have to wait sometimes up to an hour for a stand.

Unfortunately T2 is too popular with the majors as very few if any heavies go to T1 leaving plenty of space over there. The DAA may have to look at encouraging some to move but I doubt that will happen.

USPC.....

The problem with T2 is scheduling and airlines coming in up to an hour early is not the daa's fault.

EB_2013

If runway 11/29 ever gets redeveloped will that the the end of 16/34. It looks like that from the plans.

billie1b

urajoke wrote: »

Unfortunately T2 is too popular with the majors as very few if any heavies go to T1 leaving plenty of space over there. The DAA may have to look at encouraging some to move but I doubt that will happen.

DAA didn't give the majors a choice of terminals, they told them it was T2 and that was it, a couple of the US companies and even Etihad asked for Terminal 1, Pier B but cause its cheaper charges but DAA refused

billie1b

Khuitlio wrote: »

Wasn't actually aware that the piers had been renamed, it makes sense that they would do that.

The piers weren't renamed, they are still known as Pier A, B, E and D on official documents, its only on the inside that the gates were renamed from Letter/Number to just numbers.

Jamie2k9

billie1b wrote: »

DAA didn't give the majors a choice of terminals, they told them it was T2 and that was it, a couple of the US companies and even Etihad asked for Terminal 1, Pier B but cause its cheaper charges but DAA refused

There is no difference in charges for B and E piers.....

billie1b

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

There is no difference in charges for B and E piers.....

Not anymore, it was all amended in 2013, there used to be differences between Terminal 1 and 2, now they just charge per wide body, narrow body and so on so forth

Jamie2k9

billie1b wrote: »

Not anymore, it was all amended in 2013, there used to be differences between Terminal 1 and 2, now they just charge per wide body, narrow body and so on so forth

Never a difference, CAR ruled on that and carriers wouldn't move to T2 if pricing was different.

See CAR docs about it.

flanzer

billie1b wrote: »

The piers weren't renamed, they are still known as Pier A, B, E and D on official documents, its only on the inside that the gates were renamed from Letter/Number to just numbers.

I can tell you now that they were changed

Let's look at a recent stand definition document shall we.......

https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&ei=bbXqUovOD47T7AbX8oDYCg&url=http://www.dublinairport.com/Libraries/Airport_Charges/STAND_DEFINITION_TABLE_SEPTEMBER_2013_1.sflb.ashx&cd=2&ved=0CCYQFjAB&usg=AFQjCNHOUIbseILPhMKvY2fCSmYn8WHWVw

urajoke

billie1b wrote: »

Not anymore, it was all amended in 2013, there used to be differences between Terminal 1 and 2, now they just charge per wide body, narrow body and so on so forth

So which is it then? I'm lost.

Where on earth do you get your information?

urajoke

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

USPC.....

The problem with T2 is scheduling and airlines coming in up to an hour early is not the daa's fault.

What's USPC sorry? I tried googling it.

And yes, they do turn up early but the number of times they have to wait on one or both aircraft with slots is stupid. I don't blame the DAA but the lack of wide body stands at T2 is very evident most mornings.

I'm sure the scheduling is fine as you say it's the aircraft arriving early with the jet streams that is the problem and the DAA hasn't enough stands to shuffle around to accommodate the early aircraft.

lord lucan

urajoke wrote: »

What's USPC sorry? I tried googling it.

United States Preclearance.

billie1b

flanzer wrote: »

I can tell you now that they were changed

Let's look at a recent stand definition document shall we.......

https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&ei=bbXqUovOD47T7AbX8oDYCg&url=http://www.dublinairport.com/Libraries/Airport_Charges/STAND_DEFINITION_TABLE_SEPTEMBER_2013_1.sflb.ashx&cd=2&ved=0CCYQFjAB&usg=AFQjCNHOUIbseILPhMKvY2fCSmYn8WHWVw

Nice! I really have to start reading memos instead of just signing them

Thanks for that

stopthepanic

flanzer wrote: »

I can tell you now that they were changed

Let's look at a recent stand definition document shall we.......

https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&ei=bbXqUovOD47T7AbX8oDYCg&url=http://www.dublinairport.com/Libraries/Airport_Charges/STAND_DEFINITION_TABLE_SEPTEMBER_2013_1.sflb.ashx&cd=2&ved=0CCYQFjAB&usg=AFQjCNHOUIbseILPhMKvY2fCSmYn8WHWVw

Also visible on the Docking Chart. see attached

urajoke

You might want to, see post 29.

markpb

Irish Steve wrote: »

if a special requirement flight like an Israeli aircraft is coming in, the whole thing becomes a nightmare because of the way that the baggage hall doesn't work.

Can someone explain this? What special arrangements do Israeli flights need?

Dublinflyer

The flights is generally segregated and there is a lot of extra security involved.

relaxed

Dublinflyer wrote: »

The flights is generally segregated and there is a lot of extra security involved.

Why so? If they can't conform to the same standards as everybody else why not just them to shag off?

Is there a scheduled service from Israel to Ireland?

eusap

markpb wrote: »

Can someone explain this? What special arrangements do Israeli flights need?

In Brussels airport the Israel flights normally get escorted from the runway to the gate by Armed Police and a Firetruck. While it is parked at the gate the police and fire brigade stay with it until it departs again.

LoonyLovegood

Is the risk of terrorism that great on an Israeli flight?

drdeadlift

yip

Irish Steve

Dublinflyer wrote: »

The problem with having an area for "quick pickups" of passengers is that you get the five minute brigade taking it over and ending up sitting there for 20 minutes. It also leads to people stopping and waiting for a space to come free and clog up the approach road and that will delay everyone and is just dangerous.

That's easily dealt with, There are already airport police patrols, move on the 5 minute brigade, if the person that's being collected is not standing there, then they are not collecting, so send them round the circle again.

At least if there is somewhere to collect, it makes it possible to come in and out again without having to mess about trying to find somewhere behind the car park for people to get into a vehicle without hitting doors off fences.

A few less DAA vehicles parked on the departure road would also help considerably, but the real improvement would be to make the centre lane of departures the through lane, with the left and right sides being the set down area, that way, there's only one lane to move into, from either side, and there's a walkway for children to be put on and kept safe, the present cock up is an accident waiting to happen.

The other shambles is the pedestrian crossing across the departure road, it would make far more sense to have passengers coming from the car park on a different level altogether. Passengers exiting terminal side go in through the doors of the terminal. Passengers exiting on the car park side would go into the car park foyer, and then use the link that is segregated from the traffic. That way, the traffic on the departure road will flow, and it might even be feasible in that scenario, it might even be possible to allow pick up from the outer lane of departures.

Irish Steve

markpb wrote: »

Can someone explain this? What special arrangements do Israeli flights need?

Israel brings in their own security, who are airside cleared, and have their own radio equipment with them. They have their own personnel in the check in area, who will interview a percentage of the people travelling on the flight, they are in the baggage hall where the bags come down for loading, and as it it not possible to guarantee that all bags will arrive in the designated bin, they insist that the bin used is next to the "rejected" bin, so if any bags are not correctly sorted, they arrive in the bin next to the flight, so the security checker sees them all being handled, and all bags from the hall to the aircraft are escorted to the aircraft, and if a bag falls off the dolly, it has to go back to the terminal to be rescanned before it can be loaded.

They have staff at the baggage loading point, and no loaders or baggage handlers are allowed to enter any part of the aircraft if they are carrying any form of radio equipment, which the lead agent of the team and the dispatch agent would have to have in order to be able to contact the ramp control.

The Israeli security is even tighter than American flight security, they have similar checks, but not to the same degree.

Razor44

is that just for el Al or all frights from Israel? I know dublin has a charter flight in the summer from Israel, so does it apply there as well?.

interesting point it was a 757-300....last year.

urajoke

Razor44 wrote: »

is that just for el Al or all frights from Israel? I know dublin has a charter flight in the summer from Israel, so does it apply there as well?.

interesting point it was a 757-300....last year.

It's a good few years since they flew in, it's done by Arkia now.

Locker10a

Razor44 wrote: »

is that just for el Al or all frights from Israel? I know dublin has a charter flight in the summer from Israel, so does it apply there as well?.

interesting point it was a 757-300....last year.

EL aL have their own security they provide themselves ! But not for much longer if you ask me! Its costs them an arm and a leg and makes them very uncompetitive against other airlines so they will have to cut back!

roundymac

eusap wrote: »

In Brussels airport the Israel flights normally get escorted from the runway to the gate by Armed Police and a Firetruck. While it is parked at the gate the police and fire brigade stay with it until it departs again.

I'v seen the same thing in Berlin.

Irish Steve

urajoke wrote: »

It's a good few years since they flew in, it's done by Arkia now.

It was Arkia back when I was working on it, but the security was Israeli Government as far as I know, nothing to do with ElAl as such.

Jhcx

So from the current layout of planned proposals. T1 looks like its going to be under a lot of stress. there's No way it can cater for all those gates. Would need a serious overhaul. There's plenty of desks just not enough space for queuing. Security would be a disaster at peak times not to mention the duty free valley is not exactly a mile wide.

Thats just my opinion i can understand T2 handling it ok, because its airy and spacious and has a fine big security area. but lacks desks. T1 just doesnt have that space to allow greater flow.

urajoke

Irish Steve wrote: »

It was Arkia back when I was working on it, but the security was Israeli Government as far as I know, nothing to do with ElAl as such.

Why are you quoting me? I'm just saying its Arkia who fly in now not EL AL

lord lucan

Jhcx wrote: »

So from the current layout of planned proposals. T1 looks like its going to be under a lot of stress. there's No way it can cater for all those gates. Would need a serious overhaul. There's plenty of desks just not enough space for queuing. Security would be a disaster at peak times not to mention the duty free valley is not exactly a mile wide.

Thats just my opinion i can understand T2 handling it ok, because its airy and spacious and has a fine big security area. but lacks desks. T1 just doesnt have that space to allow greater flow.

T1 is about to undergo a huge redevelopment which will eliminate the street as we know it. The retail area will be a much wider area that you walk through and a higher ceiling giving a greater feeling of space. The plans for it look great,there'll even be an orientation area right after security where pax can get their stuff together before proceeding onwards,eliminating the current situation were pax are causing congestion as they get their clothing/belts/jewellery etc back on.

Khuitlio

lord lucan wrote: »

T1 is about to undergo a huge redevelopment which will eliminate the street as we know it. The retail area will be a much wider area that you walk through and a higher ceiling giving a greater feeling of space. The plans for it look great,there'll even be an orientation area right after security where pax can get their stuff together before proceeding onwards,eliminating the current situation were pax are causing congestion as they get their clothing/belts/jewellery etc back on.

Don't suppose you have any of the plans or pictures of what it is going to be like?

lord lucan

Khuitlio wrote: »

Don't suppose you have any of the plans or pictures of what it is going to be like?

The plans have only been seen internally. Here's an article that features some artists impressions of the proposed retail area and some info on it.

http://www.moodiereport.com/document.php?c_id=6&doc_id=38037

Jhcx

Oh that's great to hear. Curious though where are they going to get all the extra room or is that why the shops are vacant already on facing wall?

Irish Steve

urajoke wrote: »

Why are you quoting me? I'm just saying its Arkia who fly in now not EL AL

I was quoting you because it matters not if it's ElAl, or Arkia that operates the flight, once the flight is Israeli, then the appropriate security measures are taken by the Israeli state system to provide the additional security that they deem appropriate.

lord lucan

Jhcx wrote: »

Oh that's great to hear. Curious though where are they going to get all the extra room or is that why the shops are vacant already on facing wall?

Most of the other concessions,Dixon's,house of Ireland for example are moving further up and the daa is taking that space along with the old easons space,butlers,and the toilet block opposite sunglass hut.