Best breed of maternal sheep ?

Green farmer

With the lambing season starting , what type of ewes do people like working with the best in terms of good mothering ability, meaning less human assistance ???

Cran

Green farmer wrote: »

With the lambing season starting , what type of ewes do people like working with the best in terms of good mothering ability, meaning less human assistance ???

Don't know about main breed but I do like my ewes to have atleast 25% blackface hill ewe in them. I find it makes them better lambers outside

DMAXMAN

Green farmer wrote: »

With the lambing season starting , what type of ewes do people like working with the best in terms of good mothering ability, meaning less human assistance ???

never had many of them but any mules I had were great mothers but were big ewes that needed to be very well fed. like texel cross ewes too only they are fierce stubborn if you need to adopt a lamb onto one, just wont work!

AnFeirmeoir

Green farmer wrote: »

With the lambing season starting , what type of ewes do people like working with the best in terms of good mothering ability, meaning less human assistance ???

Older ones. You know they know what they're at .

Lano Lynn

have kerry hill X texelx ewes hardly ever handle a ewe at lambing but they are not having enough lambs(1.5) lively but great mothers.

breeding up to lleyn x in a hope to boost output had lleyns in the early90s they are very good mothers and easy worked but don't want a whole pile of triplets so may also use cheviot in the x.

hill cross ewes tend to be easier lambed than lowland crosses.

texels are not what they used to be they have been bred down into big head/short/narrow pelvised/mastitis magnets thanks to 'top breeders'

suffolks have also suffered at the hands of 'top breeders' I cannot understand how so much of the national flock consists of over 50% suffolk they tend to be lazy lumps to posh to push....but......the suffolk x cheviot (the first cross) is a great sheep.

so texel x suffolk or suffolk x texel might be the biz in the show ring in august but the are a nightmare to lamb.

but its a victoria or beyonce question ........:)

Green farmer

I think over time a bit too much texel and Suffolk sneak into out flock as it's easier to keep our own replacements. I've a lot of texel personally, but thinking of introducing some belclare into the mix.

Lano Lynn

all in favour of home bred ewes, and rams from breeders you can trust but there are so many bad breeders of pedigree sheep out there I am rapidly coming to the belief that home bred rams are going to play a greater part of my flock.

when you hear that a pedigree breeder pays a furtune for an inlamb hogget that a,has a cesaerian and b,gets mastitis so he flushes her and get 15 embryos where the f*** is that getting anyone??????????

Lano Lynn

slightly off thread but is it a health and safety issue that the dept want to know how many CROSS sheep I have on the census form?:D

my sheep are all lovely and quiet:)

Conmaicne Mara

Lano Lynn wrote: »

slightly off thread but is it a health and safety issue that the dept want to know how many CROSS sheep I have on the census form?:D

my sheep are all lovely and quiet:)

Jesus don't say that, say they're all cross and the place isn't safe for inspectors

monseiur

Green farmer wrote: »

With the lambing season starting , what type of ewes do people like working with the best in terms of good mothering ability, meaning less human assistance ???

The Perth, Lanark, Swaledale, Newton Stewart etc. i.e. the hill horney ewes are considered the best when it comes to mothering ability, they need almost zero human assistance unless of course they're outcrossed.
Over 95% of lambs are born in their natural habitat here in Ireland, in Scotland and Wales. Lambs are sometimes a week old before the farmer sees them ! Out of say 100 ewes, having 85 to 90 lambs by sale time is considered a good return. The average lamb per ewe is 1, also the lamb price at the mart is 30% to 45% less than the lowland lamb due to much smaller carcase etc.
There is a lot more intensive labour involved in lowland sheep when lambing etc.plus the cost of feed, but it's reflected in the return. So it's 6 of 1 and half dozen of the other!

M.

Lano Lynn

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

Jesus don't say that, say they're all cross and the place isn't safe for inspectors

maybe sheep ireland is going to include anger management services?
bord bia approved of coarse;)

(watch out Con the blasphemy inspectors will be calling next(see gunthering posts))

Green farmer

I suppose comparing lowland sheep farming and hill sheep farming can be like comparing apples and oranges. Each man to his own really. I was watching the bbc there recently and in England there's a strong link between the hill farmer crossing their blackface with the Leicester to give the mule, and the lowland farmer buying in the mule, as their main breathing stock.they wouldn't entertain the idea of keeping the offspring for breeding once crossed with the terminal ram once. The mule is the main breed of ewe across the water. Is the same link as strong here ?
Seperately I agree with cran, I like a minimum of at least 25% mountainy in my ewes.less foot problems etc, but cannt go too mountainy in a lowland setup if you produce butcher lambs, also hill sheep and keeping good neighbours might not go hand in hand, less you've 6ft high fencing around 100% of your farm :-)

Conmaicne Mara

Green farmer wrote: »

less you've 6ft high fencing around 100% of your farm :-)

You're not related to Oliver McDonald are you? :pac:

razor8

Big thumbs up for the mule here too. Nearly always lamb themselves, have two even lambs that are always the first ready. If you get a harsh spring like last year they excel, other breeds I have stopped milking but they milk off there back
My problem is I haven't enough of them

I breed my own usually but finding it very Hard to get the right lanark/Perth type horny lately
Bought a batch this year so waiting to see what they turn out like

I would admit that 50% of mules are crap, any crossed with the mayo horny are far too fine and offspring hard finished IMO. You them with a bit of width and depth in them

Cran

razor8 wrote: »

Big thumbs up for the mule here too. Nearly always lamb themselves, have two even lambs that are always the first ready. If you get a harsh spring like last year they excel, other breeds I have stopped milking but they milk off there back
My problem is I haven't enough of them

I breed my own usually but finding it very Hard to get the right lanark/Perth type horny lately
Bought a batch this year so waiting to see what they turn out like

I would admit that 50% of mules are crap, any crossed with the mayo horny are far too fine and offspring hard finished IMO. You them with a bit of width and depth in them

Totaly agree Mule are fantastic animals if right ones are bought, flock here is 80% mule. I'm crossing them with Lleyns now for replacements and looking forward to see how the cross back to Charollais this year;)

Green farmer

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

You're not related to Oliver McDonald are you? :pac:

Not that I know of anyway

Conmaicne Mara

Green farmer wrote: »

Not that I know of anyway

He once got some hill sheep, yonks ago. All he had for fencing was hedges and he was very surprised that they didn't keep them in :pac:

Green farmer

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

He once got some hill sheep, yonks ago. All he had for fencing was hedges and he was very surprised that they didn't keep them in :pac:

Hedges ? All those things do is act as a back scratch to the sheep as their escaping through them :-)

The man in my coop knows me on a first name basis for the amount of green sheep wire I've bought off him , 3ft does me fine and keeps the girls in, but if I tried to keep pure hill sheep, they'd only use it as a hurdle and would be gone.:eek:

Separately I've had good luck with a batch of belclare ewes I bought a few years ago. Think I'm going to get me a ram next summer for replacements

Conmaicne Mara

Green farmer wrote: »

Hedges ? All those things do is act as a back scratch to the sheep as their escaping through them :-)

The man in my coop knows me on a first name basis for the amount of green sheep wire I've bought off him , 3ft does me fine and keeps the girls in, but if I tried to keep pure hill sheep, they'd only use it as a hurdle and would be gone.:eek:

Separately I've had good luck with a batch of belclare ewes I bought a few years ago. Think I'm going to get me a ram next summer for replacements

Some of mine will jump 3 foot plus a strand of barbed on top of that. So I added another on the top of that, which put manners on them.

Username John

Green farmer wrote: »

The man in my coop knows me on a first name basis for the amount of green sheep wire I've bought off him , 3ft does me fine and keeps the girls in, but if I tried to keep pure hill sheep, they'd only use it as a hurdle and would be gone.:eek:

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

Some of mine will jump 3 foot plus a strand of barbed on top of that. So I added another on the top of that, which put manners on them.

I have one Charolais, that can jump 3 ft sheep wire with two strands barbed on top :mad:
She was on the cull list this year, but went in lamb and so is around for another bit. :rolleyes:
And already she has has jumped out of where she should be into another group of lambs, and took them back with her when she was going to her own crew... :mad: :mad:
(she always has nice lambs tho, so I wasn't that upset when she had to stay for another year)

AnFeirmeoir

Have Belclare x here . They are really quiet to handle. Had mostly twins from them last year. But I had to handle a lot of them at lambing. They're not strong sheep IMO .

Put Belclare cross Suffolk ewes back to a new Belclare ram this year. After that I'll be bringing back in some Suffolk into the mix.
Want ewes to be mostly maternal breed but not pure as lambs don't flesh as well .

Green farmer

AnFeirmeoir wrote: »

Have Belclare x here . They are really quiet to handle. Had mostly twins from them last year. But I had to handle a lot of them at lambing. They're not strong sheep IMO .

Put Belclare cross Suffolk ewes back to a new Belclare ram this year. After that I'll be bringing back in some Suffolk into the mix.
Want ewes to be mostly maternal breed but not pure as lambs don't flesh as well .

Quiet to handle makes life easier. I found in the batch I have that their also good milky sheep. Just wondering were the ones you handled in lamb to a Suffolk ? Would the ram be to blame ? I have two texel rams and noticed that I had a way higher handling rate from one and none from the other ?
Also when your working with an existing lowland flock that's gone too terminal in breeding ( as mine is ) what are the options to bring it back maternal , as far as I can see its either ,cheviot,belclare or llyen.

monseiur

Green farmer wrote: »

Hedges ? All those things do is act as a back scratch to the sheep as their escaping through them :-)

The man in my coop knows me on a first name basis for the amount of green sheep wire I've bought off him , 3ft does me fine and keeps the girls in, but if I tried to keep pure hill sheep, they'd only use it as a hurdle and would be gone.:eek:

Separately I've had good luck with a batch of belclare ewes I bought a few years ago. Think I'm going to get me a ram next summer for replacements

It is not true that horneys will jump 3 ft fence, of course you might find 1 in a 1,000 that will jump anything but it's the exception rather than the rule.
If you buy a batch of horney lambs or hoggets they will settle in a group and after a few months you could even remove the fence and they will not wander too far, (this is known as settlement patterns in the hill & mountains). The hill sheep farmers in the Cooley mountains know all about this after their flocks were removed due to the Foot & Mouth disease some years ago.
As sheep age they develop a homing instinct and some are known to jump fences, swim across rivers etc. etc. to get home especially at lambing time.
So the secret is to breed your own or else buy young stock.

M.

Green farmer

monseiur wrote: »

It is not true that horneys will jump 3 ft fence, of course you might find 1 in a 1,000 that will jump anything but it's the exception rather than the rule.
If you buy a batch of horney lambs or hoggets they will settle in a group and after a few months you could even remove the fence and they will not wander too far, (this is known as settlement patterns in the hill & mountains). The hill sheep farmers in the Cooley mountains know all about this after their flocks were removed due to the Foot & Mouth disease some years ago.
As sheep age they develop a homing instinct and some are known to jump fences, swim across rivers etc. etc. to get home especially at lambing time.
So the secret is to breed your own or else buy young stock.

M.

Fair enough Monsieur, as a lowland farmer I know nothing about hill farming.

tomwaterford

I find the texel to be a good breed
usualy fairly easily lambed..good lambs to get up and suckle when born (most important trait IMO.no point having dopey lambs and heap of work)
quiet sheep to handle and lovely dougs with small teats..had suffocks and teats nearly same size as cows
good to mind lambs outdoors
1 fault though.stubborn as f**k if they decide to go againest ya for any reason..

dave747

Have had mules in the past and found them great sheep,plenty of milk and good hardy lambs from them and found good to fatten after texel rams. i will def be buying some again this year to breed replacements from

MayoAreMagic

razor8 wrote: »

Big thumbs up for the mule here too. Nearly always lamb themselves, have two even lambs that are always the first ready. If you get a harsh spring like last year they excel, other breeds I have stopped milking but they milk off there back
My problem is I haven't enough of them

I breed my own usually but finding it very Hard to get the right lanark/Perth type horny lately
Bought a batch this year so waiting to see what they turn out like

I would admit that 50% of mules are crap, any crossed with the mayo horny are far too fine and offspring hard finished IMO. You them with a bit of width and depth in them

I wouldnt totally agree with you on the mayo ewes razor. (I have to defend my own )
The mayo ewe varies in size depending in the area. The quality is also very up and down. I suppose it is a bit like the mule, you can have good ones and bad ones. There are mayo ewes that would put it up to the perth ewes while being a good bit hardier. They would also be far larger than the lanark type and at the same time just as hardy.
The issue is there is no registered breed, so you would have to be well up to speed on the mayo ewe, and crucially, who to source them off, to get the ones you would be looking for.

On the average you are probably right, simply because there are a lot of poor mayo ewes out there. But at the same time I wouldnt tar them all with the same brush.

Conmaicne Mara

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

The issue is there is no registered breed,

There is.

Contact John Noonan, Teagasc, Westport I think.

MayoAreMagic

Thanks con. I know of that program but from what I have heard off a few guys who would be well respected in the area, there is very little quality control involved. Like no sheep were being turned away for lacking the quality required, which when you consider the variable quality in mayo ewes doesnt really make sense. I know of some who are now in it that were running lanark rams a few years ago.

Green farmer

On a separate topic, any one running Cheviots on a lowland farm, for a maternal breed, Which type make the best ewes ?

Lano Lynn

Green farmer wrote: »

On a separate topic, any one running Cheviots on a lowland farm, for a maternal breed, Which type make the best ewes ?

running some cheviots since '94 .criss cross wicklow & ncc .
brutal selection and retention of homebred rams has worked for me.
often retain a son of a purchased ram bred off an old proven ewe(see longevity thread)
bitches for barrenness always more cheviots barren than other Xbreds in our flock ,reduced the rate by culling ruthlessly.

Lambing % not great ,going to introduce some CheviotXLleyn
to see how that goes check back in 4-5 years

there is a lot of **** cheviots out there which is a pity great potential good suffolkXcheviots are great sheep may not be as prolific as mules but produce far better quality lambs

Conmaicne Mara

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Thanks con. I know of that program but from what I have heard off a few guys who would be well respected in the area, there is very little quality control involved. Like no sheep were being turned away for lacking the quality required, which when you consider the variable quality in mayo ewes doesnt really make sense. I know of some who are now in it that were running lanark rams a few years ago.

I was in it the first year, but dropped out this year. Mostly because it benefits the ram producers, I couldn't get to the special sale in Ballinrobe, and the extra paperwork. With my numbers then it didn't allow me any flexibility.

The selection process, well, I selected 20 ewes that didn't have outside breed influences in them. Two other members came and checked, then tagged the sheep, as well as the ram.

The idea then for the lambs of those ewes was to randomly select one lamb and DNA test him, as all the rams were DNA tested too. I didn't do my lamb returns so didn't get to that stage.

At the initial info meeting I felt there was merit to it. The thinking was to prevent or at the least lessen inbreeding and keep a number of sheep, pure I suppose you could say. I think they could have included more and brought the idea along farther but they didn't want to flood people with too much info/work at the beginning.

Now, I suppose, as with anything else, the success of it will depend on two things. The honesty of the people involved and a belt and braces approach to checks and balances for the flocks involved.

MayoAreMagic

The idea definately has merit Con, I fully agree. It is the proper way to go. But it needs to be enforced correctly to maximise the outcome. The more they take the soft option of letting everyone have their say, the longer it will take to get it right. As you know yourself, there might be 5 fellas with 5 different ideas about what makes a good mountain ewe - they cant all be right... If you look at lanarks, or even texels, suffolks etc, there is a set type to the ewes and they look the same. Really, that is the direction we need to go in.

Wooly Admirer

If the breed is to be brought in the right direction the only way to it is to record the parentage, build the family tree and when a good line shows up - use it for the benefit of the entire breed. Without these kind of records, progress will be almost impossible.

Lano Lynn

surely one of the advantages blackfaces have is that you are not constrained by the ridgity of a 'pedigree' you can draw on a much greater gene pool and adapt your sheep to suit your specific conditions.?
while a 'flock book' has merits it does not in itself lead to breed improvement.

bratnuk

We find the belclare x horny a very hardy mother and produce good lambs from a Suffolk ram

Conmaicne Mara

Green farmer wrote: »

On a separate topic, any one running Cheviots on a lowland farm, for a maternal breed, Which type make the best ewes ?

I've flirted shamelessly and heavily with going all Cheviot here but that idea is on the wane now. I would be looking in the direction of Lairg type NCC for my hill farm.

As to what's the best breed, well for me it's the blackface because that's what'll produce and rear lambs here.

Thomas Drennan

I bought 12 zwarble x texel cross ewe lambs put them to a blue texel lamb count is a bit low but if their anything like the lambs I had out of 2 zwarble x texel ewe lambs last year I'm into serious lambs

Kevhog1988

Thomas Drennan wrote: »

I bought 12 zwarble x texel cross ewe lambs put them to a blue texel lamb count is a bit low but if their anything like the lambs I had out of 2 zwarble x texel ewe lambs last year I'm into serious lambs

The zwarbtles good mothers??

wrangler

Thomas Drennan wrote: »

I bought 12 zwarble x texel cross ewe lambs put them to a blue texel lamb count is a bit low but if their anything like the lambs I had out of 2 zwarble x texel ewe lambs last year I'm into serious lambs

You really need to be near 2lambs per ewe......an extra .25 lamb per ewe is worth €25, the difference between a u grade lamb and an E grade is €2
Get the lambs per ewe up first

charolais0153

wrangler wrote: »

You really need to be near 2lambs per ewe......an extra .25 lamb per ewe is worth €25, the difference between a u grade lamb and an E grade is €2
Get the lambs per ewe up first

Have never heard of e grades here. Seem more common in england but i suppose theres more beltex out there also

Lambman

Never had zwartables but heard there a real milky ewe and good till cross off for keeping replacements.... know a few purebred breeders keeping them for weaning lambs onto aswell 3 lambs supposed till be no bother till them from what I heard? Can someone here explain till me the main difference in rouge ewes and charrlois ewes? Both similar looking

Ard_MC

Lambman wrote: »

Never had zwartables but heard there a real milky ewe and good till cross off for keeping replacements.... know a few purebred breeders keeping them for weaning lambs onto aswell 3 lambs supposed till be no bother till them from what I heard? Can someone here explain till me the main difference in rouge ewes and charrlois ewes? Both similar looking[/quote

I would think the Rouge would be a bit more maternal..but that's only a guess.

wrangler

Ard_MC wrote: »

Lambman wrote: »

Never had zwartables but heard there a real milky ewe and good till cross off for keeping replacements.... know a few purebred breeders keeping them for weaning lambs onto aswell 3 lambs supposed till be no bother till them from what I heard? Can someone here explain till me the main difference in rouge ewes and charrlois ewes? Both similar looking[/quote

I would think the Rouge would be a bit more maternal..but that's only a guess.

yea, More milk but a bit wild

Lambman

Just asking as I see a few lads up here using roubex rams (purebred rouge ewe crossed with beltex ram) and was wondering why they don't just use a charrlois ewe crossed with beltex ram? You'd imagine they wouldn't be keeping replacements off either mix?

Dickie10

how would a blue leicester go on suffolk and lynn? or suffolk x and llynn cross? my llyn have become a bit small, perfect for producing early may and june lambs off HD ram but some of the hoggets and lambing in april have had small lambs, you dont get into 21 kg now in winter.

charolais0153

Dickie10 wrote: »

how would a blue leicester go on suffolk and lynn? or suffolk x and llynn cross? my llyn have become a bit small, perfect for producing early may and june lambs off HD ram but some of the hoggets and lambing in april have had small lambs, you dont get into 21 kg now in winter.

Texel? Im not a fan of blue leicester.

Dickie10

im definitly not a fan of texel cross ewes.seem to take a lot of interfernce at lambing. but i might try 3/4 llyn 1/4 texel

J.O. Farmer

charolais0153 wrote: »

Texel? Im not a fan of blue leicester.

If I wanted to put length and size into my replacements I'm not sure I'd be going texel. A lot of them look a little short.

The blue leicester can be soft especially with the stringy wool. What about the border Leicester.

charolais0153

Texel ewes here bigger than a lot of suffolks.
This is a hogget that reared a lamb

J.O. Farmer

charolais0153 wrote: »

Texel ewes here bigger than a lot of suffolks.
This is a hogget that reared a lamb

You've obviously got a good line. Maybe it's my imagination but 10 or 15 years ago it was easy to find texels like that but these days I see a lot of texel rams with great width and muscle but short in length and stature. There's still good big rams but to be got but it's harder.