Fanaticism over fuel economy?!

Idbatterim

there are endless threads on this forum over fuel economy i.e it all comes down to money, so it seems fairly mental to me, that nobody seems to care about the serious costs, i.e. depreciation / interest / driving pleasure etc, or am I mad and should I simply focus on fuel economy and "da cheap" tax, "da cheap tax" in most cases saving 200-300 per year! (As if they were driving anything that came even close to large engined CC based in the first place) :rolleyes:

jimgoose

If you get in my way while I go spend €30,000 on a new Kia so ai can haz De Chape Tax an' De Chape diesel, I will rip your arms off and beat you to death with them. :mad:

Valetta

A lot of people recognise the difference between capital costs and current (or running) costs.

Caliden

I have a friend who is currently in the process of selling his perfectly fine mk5 tdi golf in order to buy 08+ car in order to avail of cheap tax.

Palm -> face

jimgoose

Caliden wrote: »

I have a friend who is currently in the process of selling his perfectly fine mk5 tdi golf in order to buy 08+ car in order to avail of cheap tax.

Palm -> face

Friend of mine (affluent enough chap, in his '70s) sold a beautiful 2002 Mercedes-Benz S320 a little over a year ago, and bought a 2012 Skoda Superb 1.6 diesel. Couple a weeks back I met him down the pub and asked him how he was liking his new-ish car. "I don't bloody like it!" he howled. "The comfort and equipment level is alright. Even the engine isn't too bad. But it's... it's... pedestrian!!". He couldn't quite put his finger on what was wrong, but I could. Most people climb up to a new top-end Skoda like that, but my friend came down from a six-cylinder Merc, and it shows. It matters. And yes, I told him not to do it at the time!

Stavros Murphy

Valetta wrote: »

A lot of people recognise the difference between capital costs and current (or running) costs.

Yeas. They do indeed. Lets amortise 40k over five years to save €400 on tax annually. Forget the hefty deposit, or the balloon payment - think of the savings. Then fork over €600 every month, which "frees up capital"... mystifies me. Also the reason many businesses go bust - the "shure pay it monthly" amounts add up very fast to an unmanageable. Also keeps a lot of folk broke.

JDM Jack

I think driving a car is much more than just transport and the relative costs IF you're into cars. I mean, I'm not even old enough to be able to drive but I know my first (road) car will need to drive and look nice before costs but at the same time I know I want a diesel that'll have a decent enough MPG, as I'll be strapped for cash.

Big Tom Mainliner

It all comes down to driving pleasure for me.

To be honest, I often find myself in a bit of a rush, so I want something with a bit of speed that is going to get me there, without the engine revving so hard it sounds like its going to blow. If you're 20 mins late trying to get from Castlebar to Westport, a 1.4 Kia just won't do it for you. You need at the very least a solid 2.0l under the bonnet, preferably much more.

MuppetCheck

There's an assumption that everyone that buys a new car wants nothing else but low tax.

Try finding a well specced, reasonably economical car in excellent condition with a comprehensive service history in this country - they are few and far between. It's hilarious the heaps that are passed off as mint.

Voodoomelon

A lot of people budget for motoring in the same way. The only real cost that is looked at or considered when choosing a new car is the repayments and the motor tax.

Petrol/diesel doesn't even come into the equation anymore as "everyone knows its cheaper to run a diesel, plus they're more reliable". Neither does servicing cost or fuel cost. The smaller the engine the better, as "big engines cost a lot to fix and cost more to run", regardless of the size of the car.

New equals better with most of the motoring population, anything over 50k miles is "getting on".

So the motoring decision goes:

We need a new car -> VW, Toyota, Ford are the most reliable -> How much money can we afford on repayments -> What's the newest plate we can get for our money (hence lower spec) -> Diesel engine please -> Which has the lowest tax -> Which has the lowest miles -> Oh I like that color -> Oh it was only used by an aul wan to drive to the shops 3 times a week? -> Hey everyone look at my new diesel Corolla with hubcaps and low tax, I've finally made it.

Now for people who are not into cars, the huge majority of people, I totally get why they do the above. But I will never do it for as long as I live.

JDM Jack

Voodoomelon wrote: »

A lot of people budget for motoring in the same way. The only real cost that is looked at or considered when choosing a new car is the repayments and the motor tax.

Petrol/diesel doesn't even come into the equation anymore as "everyone knows its cheaper to run a diesel, plus they're more reliable". Neither does servicing cost or fuel cost. The smaller the engine the better, as "big engines cost a lot to fix and cost more to run", regardless of the size of the car.

New equals better with most of the motoring population, anything over 50k miles is "getting on".

So the motoring decision goes:

We need a new car -> VW, Toyota, Ford are the most reliable -> How much money can we afford on repayments -> What's the newest plate we can get for our money (hence lower spec) -> Diesel engine please -> Which has the lowest tax -> Which has the lowest miles -> Oh I like that color -> Oh it was only used by an aul wan to drive to the shops 3 times a week? -> Hey everyone look at my new diesel Corolla with hubcaps and low tax, I've finally made it.

Now for people who are not into cars, the huge majority of people, I totally get why they do the above. But I will never do it for as long as I live.

I hope I never do this! With the economy the way it is though I won't be having a broad choice for a first car, starting with a Golf, Bora, A4 etc. Hopefully a Jap import some day.. *cough R34 cough*

lomb

I think I worked out that a 06 mint Merc CLS 350 with its 1800 euro tax, 20mpg cost the same to run as a brand new 20k base Corolla or Golf with 45mpg.
I think I know which I would rather.

Atlantic Dawn

I think the current economy has some people believing the only way to save money is to spend it, from the idiot spending €30k to save €500 a year on motor tax and fuel to the fool installing €20k solar panels in his roof of the house to save €200 a year in electricity. They see the saving in running cost but seem to think the capital costs and depreciation are free.

The_Honeybadger

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

I think the current economy has some people believing the only way to save money is to spend it, from the idiot spending €30k to save €500 a year on motor tax and fuel to the fool installing €20k solar panels in his roof of the house to save €200 a year in electricity. They see the saving in running cost but seem to think the capital costs and depreciation are free.

+1 see it all the time. Don't know of any solar panels that cost 20k mind.
I have a sis in law who is currently looking at spending 15k on a used diesel and getting rid of her perfectly good petrol car. She lives in town and can walk to work, uses the car for running to shops etc but the cost of petrol is "killing her" apparently. I have given up trying to talk sense into her. It'd be one thing if she could easily afford it but she works in the service industry and will be at the pin of her collar trying to pay for the new motor, and which point she will be no doubt crowing about all the money she is saving. The country is full of people like this who cannot grasp basic budgeting and the long term cost of ownership, depreciation etc.

Idbatterim

I think the current economy has some people believing the only way to save money is to spend it, from the idiot spending €30k to save €500 a year on motor tax and fuel to the fool installing €20k solar panels in his roof of the house to save €200 a year in electricity. They see the saving in running cost but seem to think the capital costs and depreciation are free.

Brilliant analogy! NAIL HAMMER HEAD!

I think driving a car is much more than just transport and the relative costs IF you're into cars. I mean, I'm not even old enough to be able to drive but I know my first (road) car will need to drive and look nice before costs but at the same time I know I want a diesel that'll have a decent enough MPG, as I'll be strapped for cash.

This is the funny thing though, people are into number plates, if they were into "Cars" they would be the getting the serious amount of car you can get, if you are prepared to go a few years older. The age of the cars has nothing to do with where it ranks on the scale of good to **** IMO... Also all the car puritans, if they were actually car connoisseurs wouldnt they all be driving 6 or 8 cyilder bm's, audi's, mercs etc?

Stavros Murphy

I drive a Skyline for economic reasons. I compared the ownership costs/running costs to a new Fiesta and went for the far cheaper option. Depreciation - nil. Cost - tiny, sub 2k. Fuel - does 100 smiles per gallon, very economical. Tax - a bargain, sub €700. Comfort - Recaros, very snug. Fact I'll be a long time dead and get to drive a Skyline daily - priceless. Repayments - none. Makes sense to me anyway.

obezyana

I love my car so I don't care how much petrol I have to put in it

ironclaw

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

to the fool installing €20k solar panels in his roof of the house to save €200 a year in electricity. They see the saving in running cost but seem to think the capital costs and depreciation are free.

Speaking as a petrol head thats an unfair analogy. If you boost your heating with these panels i.e. They heat water, not generate electricity of which few do, they pay for themselves relatively quickly (3 to 7 years) Thats opposed to a car which is always, always going to cost your money.

On thread however, I'd have an R32, RS4, 3.2 TT Quattro, M5 etc pretty much any car to put a smile on your face, before I'd have a "sensible" car. Whats the point, your going to spend perhaps 30% of your day in it, why budget? Would you buy a cheap bed to save a few quid?

Bpmull

A neighbour of mine bought a new s40 diesel in 2007 lovely car he minded it well and all that. Then in 2010ish he decided he would trade the perfectly good volvo in for an identical s40 but with a 08 plate no joke. I think he gave around 6k for the upgrade it was main dealer. I could not comprehend this at all I know you would be saving a bit in tax but your buying a second hand car which you don't know its past. And trading in a car you had from new so know its past fully. The 08 ended up causing a bit of trouble too about 1k to but right I can't remember what was wrong with it exactly as the guy himself wouldn't know anything about car so couldn't name what was replaced. It ended up being an expensive way to save a few 100 euro on tax a year.

btkm8unsl0w5r4

At the end of the day some people don't care about driving and just want a new car, or a cheap car or whatever. Some people want performance cars and are willing to waste money on running costs and fuel. The annoying group are those that talk about performance but won't put their money where their mouths are or buy "performance brands" with tiny engines and then sh1te on about the tax. You know who you are.......

kirving

I bought a 1.8 petrol car the other week. Not a big engine by any means, and it should get about 50 MPG on the motorway. I've been called mad, insane, naive, and more by people who tell me I should have bought a diesel. I seriously doubt that the majority of buyers consider anything but the most expensive, smallest engine diesel they can afford. The reality is that the cheaper petrol option might often be better specced, have lover mileage, and be newer.

Jesus.

Everything's so Fecking dear in this Country its no wonder people are concerned about fuel economy. We're robbed of every penny we have so looking for value is not surprising.

I do agree though that people spending thousands to save a few hundred on tax etc need their heads examined. There was a thread running yesterday where a guy in his OP admitted to doing just that. It defies logic.

ironclaw

Jesus. wrote: »

I do agree though that people spending thousands to save a few hundred on tax etc need their heads examined. There was a thread running yesterday where a guy in his OP admitted to doing just that. It defies logic.

Well your trying to make someone, who has no knowledge of cars, believe that a cheaper tax bill and marginally cheaper fuel is not, on the overall cheaper in the long run. Sure, if I pay less tax and less at the pump, how could I lose?

There is zero education about the mileage balance and driving characteristics that make a diesel more economical so you can't really blame them. What will be interesting however will be the number of second hand petrols available in this country in 5 to 10 years time.

Supergurrier

What about smiles per gallon eh eh ???

Atlantic Dawn

ironclaw wrote: »

What will be interesting however will be the number of second hand petrols available in this country in 5 to 10 years time.

Yes if I had a large storage area I would be stockpiling them, huge amount of great spec petrol cars available for criminally low money at the moment in this country.

hughjohn

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Yes if I had a large storage area I would be stockpiling them, huge amount of great spec petrol cars available for criminally low money at the moment in this country.

Yep , have just bought a nice 2 litre beemer 3 series petrol for small money.
Workmates tell me I should be certified , they said " I really cant believe you went and bought a big petrol engined car!! How much is that to tax?"

Supergurrier

hughjohn wrote: »

Yep , have just bought a nice 2 litre beemer 3 series petrol for small money.
Workmates tell me I should be certified , they said " I really cant believe you went and bought a big petrol engined car!! How much is that to tax?"

Only in Ireland is a 2 litre petrol considered a BIG engine, jaysus

Notch000

sure go on to Carculator.ie and it will show you that buying a new renault thats made of cheese will actually make you flush again !! that and the advert for the guy who coudent afford to give up his tracker morgage but BOI sortred hi out !!! this ****ing country

Jesus.

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Yes if I had a large storage area I would be stockpiling them, huge amount of great spec petrol cars available for criminally low money at the moment in this country.

hughjohn wrote: »

Yep , have just bought a nice 2 litre beemer 3 series petrol for small money.
Workmates tell me I should be certified , they said " I really cant believe you went and bought a big petrol engined car!! How much is that to tax?"

Honestly though boys, do you reckon the theory that our crazily high motor tax is offset by the depreciation suffered by large cars because of that very same tax system, is sound?
Like if our tax system was like any normal Country's tomorrow morning, would the price of large cars go up so that overall you'd still be spending as much buying one (second hand)?

Some swear by it but others say its bunkum, citing examples from the UK where such cars are every bit as cheap as here despite the tax being fairly reasonable over there.

Idbatterim

Honestly though boys, do you reckon the theory that our crazily high motor tax is offset by the depreciation suffered by large cars because of that very same tax system, is sound?
Like if our tax system was like any normal Country's tomorrow morning, would the price of large cars go up so that overall you'd still be spending as much buying one (second hand)?

Absolutely in most cases, the motor tax decimates the value of older prestige cars, because you are combing the big two depreciators in ireland, the reg year and motor tax. The problem is, even though I have my eye on one or two 3L bm's that are priced to sell and have the ridiculous running costs factored in, I just dont know if I can psychologically give those f**cking parasites E1494 or nearly E1700 if paid by the quarter. The 2.5L engine on CC is ideal, problem is you obviously cant get the 6 or 7 series with this engine, they start at 3L, hence why I'm holding onto the 325ci for a while while I decide what to do...

Some swear by it but others say its bunkum, citing examples from the UK where such cars are every bit as cheap as here despite the tax being fairly reasonable over there.

the prices of cars in discussion do seem similar in the uk, which makes makes me wonder, how in gods name are they so cheap over there, if the tax is virtually nothing?! Because thats pretty much the issue that makes "large engined cars" as attractive as lepers to most people over here!

I reckon your average Joe soap here would deem 2L and over a large engined car, Id probably say at least 2.5L, but more likely 3L and over...

Voodoomelon

My tax was up on the 728 in December, I actually saved nearly a €1000 in tax by changing to the 740, go figure.

Supergurrier

Voodoomelon wrote: »

My tax was up on the 728 in December, I actually saved nearly a €1000 in tax by changing to the 740, go figure.

Poor Leo won't be happy ya filthy tax dodger ye :pac:

Sobanek

Let's say your budget for a car is €27,000 (Price of a new BMW 116d)

What would you be able to get if you'd be willing to poke around the 2nd hand market?

2005 BMW E60 M5
€14,950
Advantages:
- 507bhp
- V10 Sound
- Huge Specification
- Bigger than the 1 Series
- Cheaper to buy than a 1 Series
- Little to no depreciation

Disadvantages:
- €1,809 tax
- High Fuel Consumption
- High Maintenance Costs

However...

You're still left with €12,000 after you buy this car.
Still left with over €10k after you pay the tax for a whole year!
Still left with over €7k after you do a full service and any necessary repairs which will extend its life for another 50k miles.
€7,000 buys you 4,701 litres of petrol. Even at an average consumption of 15 litres per 100 km (mixed driving), you still have enough cash to drive the M5 for another 31,000 kilometres (at €1.489 per litre).

And you own a fully specced M5, not a 116d with cloth seats.

Valetta

Sobanek wrote: »

Let's say your budget for a car is €27,000 (Price of a new BMW 116d)

What would you be able to get if you'd be willing to poke around the 2nd hand market?

2005 BMW E60 M5
€14,950
Advantages:
- 507bhp
- V10 Sound
- Huge Specification
- Bigger than the 1 Series
- Cheaper to buy than a 1 Series
- Little to no depreciation

Disadvantages:
- €1,809 tax
- High Fuel Consumption
- High Maintenance Costs

However...

You're still left with €12,000 after you buy this car.
Still left with over €10k after you pay the tax for a whole year!
Still left with over €7k after you do a full service and any necessary repairs which will extend its life for another 50k miles.
€7,000 buys you 4,701 litres of petrol. Even at an average consumption of 15 litres per 100 km (mixed driving), you still have enough cash to drive the M5 for another 31,000 kilometres (at €1.489 per litre).

And you own a fully specced M5, not a 116d with cloth seats.

What if you don't want a 507 BHP car?

Sobanek

Valetta wrote: »

What if you don't want a 507 BHP car?

Buy a newer 520d then or a brand new 114d.

ironclaw

Valetta wrote: »

What if you don't want a 507 BHP car?

Why not? And thats not a trolling question, its a genuine query. Who wouldn't want a little more poke, a truck load more features and a decent car at the end of the day? Yes, its an M5 and yes, it has 507bhp but its less than half the price with at least 10 times the 'value' in every possible way. Its an absolute no brainer.

commited

MuppetCheck wrote: »

There's an assumption that everyone that buys a new car wants nothing else but low tax.

Try finding a well specced, reasonably economical car in excellent condition with a comprehensive service history in this country - they are few and far between. It's hilarious the heaps that are passed off as mint.

I agree and disagree. Most people who buy a generic new or nearly new car want the number on the plate, low mileage, cheap tax and high MPG. Lots of people in Ireland don't know much about cars and that's fair enough, I don't know much about horses. However, I think I'd do my research if I was going to buy one.

I agree re the mint comment, but there is little incentive to keep cars mint in Ireland as the vast majority of the public won't pay a premium for a car in good condition, only low miles..

BMJD

I dunno guys, the Renault ad on the wireless said if I buy one if their cars, I can afford to live again! They wouldn't be making **** up would they?

tossy

BMJD wrote: »

I dunno guys, the Renault ad on the wireless said if I buy one if their cars, I can afford to live again! They wouldn't be making **** up would they?

The irony is you would die a little inside every time you drove one.

eqwjewoiujqorj

If buying a second hand car, what is the premium for a 2008 car VS a pre 2008 car,
and if you were keeping the car for few years would you make it back,
if you included the resale value (if they don't change the car tax system).

NIMAN

Sobanek wrote: »

Let's say your budget for a car is €27,000 (Price of a new BMW 116d)

What would you be able to get if you'd be willing to poke around the 2nd hand market?

2005 BMW E60 M5
€14,950
Advantages:
- 507bhp
- V10 Sound
- Huge Specification
- Bigger than the 1 Series
- Cheaper to buy than a 1 Series
- Little to no depreciation

Disadvantages:
- €1,809 tax
- High Fuel Consumption
- High Maintenance Costs

However...

You're still left with €12,000 after you buy this car.
Still left with over €10k after you pay the tax for a whole year!
Still left with over €7k after you do a full service and any necessary repairs which will extend its life for another 50k miles.
€7,000 buys you 4,701 litres of petrol. Even at an average consumption of 15 litres per 100 km (mixed driving), you still have enough cash to drive the M5 for another 31,000 kilometres (at €1.489 per litre).

And you own a fully specced M5, not a 116d with cloth seats.

That sounds like a great idea, but you are still buying a 9 yr old car, and there is a fair chance that things are going to start going wrong with cars at this age, irrespective of how well they are maintained. Simple wear and tear.

Whereas many will be attracted by a new car with no wear and tear, and a fresh warranty.

Andrew_Doran

Idbatterim wrote: »

I reckon your average Joe soap here would deem 2L and over a large engined car

I'd say most europeans would too.

obezyana

Supergurrier wrote: »

What about smiles per gallon eh eh ???

Smiles per gallon is exactly how I judge my fuel consumption.

Sobanek

Andrew_Doran wrote: »

I'd say most europeans would too.

My friend over in Poland owns an Audi A4 2.0 TDI and he says that this engine is small. Next in his plans is a CLS350

bladespin

Valetta wrote: »

What if you don't want a 507 BHP car?

Buy a less powerful, cheaper to run and insure petrol and you'll have an even bigger belly laugh at the diesel lemmings.

Tea 1000

Sobanek wrote: »

Let's say your budget for a car is €27,000 (Price of a new BMW 116d)

What would you be able to get if you'd be willing to poke around the 2nd hand market?

2005 BMW E60 M5
€14,950
Advantages:
- 507bhp
- V10 Sound
- Huge Specification
- Bigger than the 1 Series
- Cheaper to buy than a 1 Series
- Little to no depreciation

Disadvantages:
- €1,809 tax
- High Fuel Consumption
- High Maintenance Costs

However...

You're still left with €12,000 after you buy this car.
Still left with over €10k after you pay the tax for a whole year!
Still left with over €7k after you do a full service and any necessary repairs which will extend its life for another 50k miles.
€7,000 buys you 4,701 litres of petrol. Even at an average consumption of 15 litres per 100 km (mixed driving), you still have enough cash to drive the M5 for another 31,000 kilometres (at €1.489 per litre).

And you own a fully specced M5, not a 116d with cloth seats.

In fairness, you'd be nuts to buy a 6 owner M5 with 95k miles on it. High performance cars have components with much shorter shelf lives than regular cars. Gearbox for an M5 could be €14,000 itself, and after 6 owners, you can be sure each one took their cut in it before shoving it on to the next lead-booted bargain hunter, so there's not much life left in it. Suspension components won't be cheap and will be close to due replacement, any repairs will be eye watering, and servicing will probably be massive if it's done right.
However, pick yourself a 1 owner 545i even with the same miles and you're in completely different territory. Unstressed engine, not bought by folk looking to cane it, more stomachable service and running costs, no bespoke components to replace, and should be happy to run for many more miles with little need for attention, and will be a good 5k less than an M5!
So your theory is sound, your particular example I have an issue with!
I think to properly afford to run an E60 M5 you need to be in the budget ballpark of a 40k car, but go for a well minded 25k M5. 6 owners on a high performance car is the motoring equivalent of a red light district!

H3llR4iser

Sobanek wrote: »

My friend over in Poland owns an Audi A4 2.0 TDI and he says that this engine is small. Next in his plans is a CLS350

I don't know how it works in Poland in regards of tax/fuel/insurance but I can say that, without the shadow of a doubt, a 2L engine is definitely considered big in most of the EU - afterall, year after year the most sold cars are the Golf, Focus, Clio, Polo, Astra and the likes - nothing that comes with 2.5L V6s as standard option in them.

Rowley Birkin QC

Kevin Irving wrote: »

I bought a 1.8 petrol car the other week. Not a big engine by any means, and it should get about 50 MPG on the motorway. I've been called mad, insane, naive, and more by people who tell me I should have bought a diesel. I seriously doubt that the majority of buyers consider anything but the most expensive, smallest engine diesel they can afford. The reality is that the cheaper petrol option might often be better specced, have lover mileage, and be newer.

I had the same from a cousin when I bought a well specced 2.0 petrol BMW Coupe that isn't too far away from it's fully depreciated book value. She had just bought a brand new Kia Toaster and was "saving a fortune on tax". Bonkers.

ironclaw wrote: »

What will be interesting incredibly annoying however will be the number of second hand petrols available in this country in 5 to 10 years time.

I'm starting to look at E92 coupes and they are nearly all diesel. Finding a well looked after, well specced petrol model will be a challenge.

btkm8unsl0w5r4

Tea 1000 wrote: »

I think to properly afford to run an E60 M5 you need to be in the budget ballpark of a 40k car, but go for a well minded 25k M5. 6 owners on a high performance car is the motoring equivalent of a red light district!

Absolutely totally correct. You see 15k in the price difference between M5 of the same year. A car like that should be totally bought on condition and mileage.

Idbatterim

I'm starting to look at E92 coupes and they are nearly all diesel. Finding a well looked after, well specced petrol model will be a challenge.

http://www.carzone.ie/search/BMW/3-Series/325-I-E9/201405221387255/advert?channel=CARS

take a look at this! You are right though, 99% are ****, either SE or diesel or both... My criteria is E92 325 or 330, manual, petrol, black or white only, D reg AND now for the big one, price, I'm just not prepared to part with what they are going for at the moment, thats no to say that they are overpriced. The interest alone on a 2 year loan, would wipe out the 1k motor tax saving I would be making annually...

Also in general as used cars now, I see no point in anyone who is into cars buying the 2L E92, the motor tax is only E180 more per year on the 6 pot for the 325, its a good bit quicker, with a 6 pot and very little difference in fuel economy.

btkm8unsl0w5r4

335i auto for 12k, these are fantastic cars (if maintained properly) going for a song, e46 m3 performance without the inspection 2 costs. Really we should all shut up and allow those who don't value such cars drive the price down for those of us who do.

http://www.carzone.ie/search/BMW/3-Series/335-335I/201338218448883/advert?channel=CARS