Who is at fault?

Diemos

Yesterday, I was driving down the N11 towards town, at the Esso fuel station just after Stillorgan a car pulled out of the station, they regularly do this, makes me uneasy every time but they usually stay in the bus lane until they get up to speed, not this guy, he drove in the bus lane for maybe a hundred meters and then quickly switched lane, no indicator, nothing.
I almost rear ended him, serious ABS kicking in, scared the life outta me. The road was quiet, nothing behind me or to the side of me so I would have been able to change lanes if I had to. But I was seriously shaken, I don't know what his rush was but he could have seriously hurt me.

My question is, had I hit him would I have been in the wrong? I've always been told if you rear end a car then you are automatically at fault, however if a vehicle pulls out in front of you and you have no time to re-act sure they are at fault?

Opinions please?

Zubeneschamali

Diemos wrote: »

My question is, had I hit him would I have been in the wrong? I've always been told if you rear end a car then you are automatically at fault, however if a vehicle pulls out in front of you and you have no time to re-act sure they are at fault?

Yes, if someone changes lane without giving way, they may be at fault.

Unfortunately, if the physical evidence says you hit him from behind, the other details in any court case will be he said/she said conflicting witness statements, so it is very hard to prove.

thegreatiam

similar scenario around the same area on where there are houses.

Someone pulled out of the drive and immediately into traffic, luckily it was 530 pm and quite busy so I was only doing 40-50 kph, but with a big gap between me and the car infront. I only just managed to stop intime about 5 feet from his bumper as he slowly got up to speed.

But I only just managed to stop, slightly more rain or more worn tyres and I hit him. luckily I was the last car so I caused no-one else to break.

Made me wonder 2 things, why not wait til I pass since I was the last car.
and if I hit him who is responsible.

I drive a 2001 skoda he had a large merc, I wouldnt want to be covering his repair.

Also the scenario where he drives on oblivious and me and a following car have a pile up, would he be in anyway responsible? Ive a camera installed so I had a shot of the incident and his reg.

No Pants

01000001 01101100 01100001 01101110 wrote: »

What if someone reversed into you in traffic? Or let their handbrake go and rolled back into you? You would be seen to be at fault and nothing you could do about it

Take a look at the dashcam thread.

beauf

There's been a few well known scams that deliberately cause people to crash into their rear at roundabouts and such.

timmy4u2

One important part of proper driving is to allow traffic to progress.
You admit that you saw him leaving the filling station and drive along the lane so why should you be taken by surprise when he exited to the traffic lane; What else was he going to do only come out.
Why did you not move over to the other lane to allow him exit as you state traffic was light at the time or otherwise slow down to allow him to merge safely.

You did not expect him to stop so you would not be inconvenienced and then place him in a more dangerous situation of exiting from a stationary position.

Yes he should have indicated but I would suggest that your intention not to give an inch would have contributed to any accident that may have occured in that situation
The road is for the use of everybody and should be shared.
It is such a pleasure to drive on the motorways and dual carriageways of the UK where the majority respect the righ of others to carry out manoeuvers in the interest of proper driving and in the interest of politeness and not because I of a fear of being liable if they did not and were caught out

No Pants

It's also an important part of driving to not cause others to have to brake.

timmy4u2

No Pants wrote: »

It's also an important part of driving to not cause others to have to brake.

There are many situations where you will cause others to brake and they are all legal situations.
If you expect to drive on the roadways and expect not to have to brake to allow other traffic to progress I am afraid you will have a rough ride out there.

alias no.9

Diemos wrote: »

Yesterday, I was driving down the N11 towards town, at the Esso fuel station just after Stillorgan a car pulled out of the station, they regularly do this, makes me uneasy every time but they usually stay in the bus lane until they get up to speed, not this guy, he drove in the bus lane for maybe a hundred meters and then quickly switched lane, no indicator, nothing.
I almost rear ended him, serious ABS kicking in, scared the life outta me. The road was quiet, nothing behind me or to the side of me so I would have been able to change lanes if I had to. But I was seriously shaken, I don't know what his rush was but he could have seriously hurt me.

My question is, had I hit him would I have been in the wrong? I've always been told if you rear end a car then you are automatically at fault, however if a vehicle pulls out in front of you and you have no time to re-act sure they are at fault?

Opinions please?

If he made it 100m along the bus lane slowly then you had sight of him for quite a while and shouldn't have needed to slam on. Always start by assuming that everybody else on the road is an idiot and likely to do something stupid.
When you see someone that might attempt to merge, it's not that difficult to leave a larger gap between you and the car in front or move out to the overtaking lane to give them some room. I'm not condoning his actions in any way, but from your own point of view, being right is little consolation in the event of an accident and if there's a way to easily avoid the situation, then take it.

No Pants

timmy4u2 wrote: »

There are many situations where you will cause others to brake and they are all legal situations.
If you expect to drive on the roadways and expect not to have to brake to allow other traffic to progress I am afraid you will have a rough ride out there.

There's a distinction between me deciding to brake, such as on the approach to a roundabout or because I can see an upcoming obstacle or change in traffic behaviour and being forced to brake by someone else's actions.

Diemos

Sorry Timmy I should have been clearer, I was driving in the bus lane which was open because it was a Sunday night, I switched to the middle lane, he stuck his nose out and stopped, there was nothing around us, he pulled into the bus lane which I had vacated to allow him to do so safely, were he surprised me was the sudden move into the middle lane when he was travelling at a slower speed and with no indication.

I'm really not sure what more I could have done.

But what I wanted to know was if we had collided who would have be paying for who's repair bill?

beauf

01000001 01101100 01100001 01101110 wrote: »

I just did there. So without a dashcam you'd be automatically at fault??

I was thinking about getting one for ages now. Only problem is that they are big obvious things and they'd be obvious from the outside like a SatNav or something and you'd have to remove them each and every time you left the car in case a scumbag tried to smash the windscreen to get it. This would get annoyingly inconvenient after a while.

TBH you see so much bad driving out there, and bullying, obnoxious driving that I think dashcams can only get more and more common. You really need a front and a rear. So many tailgaters out there. Very little patience out there these days. Whats the rush.

dr.fuzzenstein

Diemos wrote: »

Sorry Timmy I should have been clearer, I was driving in the bus lane which was open because it was a Sunday night, I switched to the middle lane, he stuck his nose out and stopped, there was nothing around us, he pulled into the bus lane which I had vacated to allow him to do so safely, were he surprised me was the sudden move into the middle lane when he was travelling at a slower speed and with no indication.

I'm really not sure what more I could have done.

But what I wanted to know was if we had collided who would have be paying for who's repair bill?

Don't worry OP, this is motoring, that means if you post that someone ran up to your car and bashed it with metal bar, it would be made into your fault within 5 posts, this thread sadly simply delivers as usual.

Anyway, in theory this should not be your fault because if someone switches lanes without indicating and looking, it is their fault.
Proving it is, of courser, another thing. If the other guy just plays thick and ignorant, you could be found to be at fault, because the Gards don't care and the insurance company even less.
So, yes, Dashcam seems the way to go.

timmy4u2

No Pants wrote: »

There's a distinction between me deciding to brake, such as on the approach to a roundabout or because I can see an upcoming obstacle or change in traffic behaviour and being forced to brake by someone else's actions.

My God you will always have to brake because of someone elses behaviour. You cannot expect to say "this is my piece of road and I reserve the rightto drive along it at the indicated speed limit because I was here first". Half the motoring public would be dead or injured if we all adopted that attitude.

beauf

timmy4u2 wrote: »

My God you will always have to brake because of someone elses behaviour. You cannot expect to say "this is my piece of road and I reserve the rightto drive along it at the indicated speed limit because I was here first". Half the motoring public would be dead or injured if we all adopted that attitude.

Thats a bit simplistic. Certainly there are situations where people will pull in front of you unexpectedly at the very last minute. Either through bad driving, road rage or simply a scam.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1302134/Brothers-12m-crash-cash-scam-ring-face-jail.html

Induced accidents – where the “crash for casher” deliberately drives dangerously or badly to force a collision with an innocent motorist.
For example, they slam on their brakes without warning so the car behind crunches into the back of them, or pull out at a junction or roundabout giving an oncoming car no chance to avoid them.

http://www.2pass.co.uk/crash-for-cash-scams.htm#.UuZqSRBFDcs

Of course there is a problem with drivers not letting other drivers out. But that's a different thing entirely.

timmy4u2

Diemos wrote: »

Sorry Timmy I should have been clearer, I was driving in the bus lane which was open because it was a Sunday night, I switched to the middle lane, he stuck his nose out and stopped, there was nothing around us, he pulled into the bus lane which I had vacated to allow him to do so safely, were he surprised me was the sudden move into the middle lane when he was travelling at a slower speed and with no indication.

I'm really not sure what more I could have done.

But what I wanted to know was if we had collided who would have be paying for who's repair bill?

That puts a different slant on it. He changed lanes without indication.

I would imagine if the impact was on his rear quarter or side you would be singing.
rear ending him is perhaps failing to drive at a speed you can see to be clear, but in the end of the day the major question to be asked is
"would the accident have happened if the other driver had not changed lane without indicating and at a speed greatly lower that the speed of the traffic already on that lane and should the driver on that lane have reasonably expected the driver to exit from a Bus Lane, on the assumption that the driver was not aware that he could continue on the bus lane"

Moomat

timmy4u2 wrote: »

Yes he should have indicated but I would suggest that your intention not to give an inch would have contributed to any accident that may have occured in that situation
The road is for the use of everybody and should be shared.
It is such a pleasure to drive on the motorways and dual carriageways of the UK where the majority respect the righ of others to carry out manoeuvers in the interest of proper driving and in the interest of politeness and not because I of a fear of being liable if they did not and were caught out

I agree, there is a huge difference when driving in the UK. In general drivers are much more aware of their surroundings. For example if you are on a motorway and approaching a car you intend to overtake then if there's somebody about to overtake you they'll usually slow down if it's safe and give you a flash to pull out before you've even put on your indicator. I noticed this first while driving trucks over there but on subsequent visits in the car it's exactly the same, awareness and consideration.
Back in Ireland and it's back to the I was here first and I'm in the right mentality.

beauf

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

...Proving it is, of courser, another thing. If the other guy just plays thick and ignorant, you could be found to be at fault, because the Gards don't care and the insurance company even less.
So, yes, Dashcam seems the way to go.

This about sums it up.

beauf

Moomat wrote: »

...
Back in Ireland and it's back to the I was here first and I'm in the right mentality.

I agree.

Theres a flip side of this. Where people drive at you, (perhaps theres obstruction on their side, or they are overtaking) and force you to give way. This seems to be getting a lot more common.

timmy4u2

Moomat wrote: »

I agree, there is a huge difference when driving in the UK. In general drivers are much more aware of their surroundings. For example if you are on a motorway and approaching a car you intend to overtake then if there's somebody about to overtake you they'll usually slow down if it's safe and give you a flash to pull out before you've even put on your indicator. I noticed this first while driving trucks over there but on subsequent visits in the car it's exactly the same, awareness and consideration.
Back in Ireland and it's back to the I was here first and I'm in the right mentality.

I have often said that many Irish drivers should drive in the UK for a week.
Last week I was driving up the M6. My friend in another car had a slight delay so I was allowing him to catch up. I was therefore driving on the insidel lane at 55 to 60 mph.

Some lorries passed me out. Ok they exceeded the limit but not my problem.
I gave them a flash to indicate they were clear of me and could pull back in.

Everybody was happy and then an artic with five or six lights on the roof drove to within a few feet of me, he then put on all his lights and hooted repeatedly.
Eventually he passed out an yes, it was an Irish Registered truck.
I rest my case.

Moomat

beauf wrote: »

I agree.

Theres a flip side of this. Where people drive at you, (perhaps theres obstruction on their side, or they are overtaking) and force you to give way. This seems to be getting a lot more common.

See it all the time myself. It's rude and dangerous and yes you'd probably be in the right if they hit you but why let it get to that. If you anticipate somebody is going to do it then let them through, no point in getting worked up about it. Whats a few extra seconds on your journey for the sake of a relaxed trip.

Cathalog

timmy4u2 wrote: »

Some lorries passed me out. Ok they exceeded the limit but not my problem.
I gave them a flash to indicate they were clear of me and could pull back in.

Bit off-topic, but is this common practice?

Diemos

Cathalog wrote: »

Bit off-topic, but is this common practice?

It would be, 40 foot's can be very difficult to judge when they can safely return to their original lane after completing an over take, due to the length of the vehicle, so when it is safe for them to change lane a quick flash lets them know.

timmy4u2

Cathalog wrote: »

Bit off-topic, but is this common practice?

Yes, common practice especially amongst lorry drivers.
I am not a lorry driver but I havecon occasions driven lorries and I appreciate the fact that they are driving very long vehicles with mirrors that do not totally indicate their extremities so it is very helpful for them to let them know when it is safe to pull in, especially at night time.

beauf

This lack of consideration of other road users has got a lot worse in the last 15~20yrs or so. Especially recently.

No Pants

timmy4u2 wrote: »

My God you will always have to brake because of someone elses behaviour. You cannot expect to say "this is my piece of road and I reserve the rightto drive along it at the indicated speed limit because I was here first". Half the motoring public would be dead or injured if we all adopted that attitude.

Where did I say that's what I do? Of course I have to break all the time. I'm talking about the utopian situation. I consider my behaviour appropriate if I have caused no one else to brake unexpectedly.

Gumbo

This is where Dash cams are worth their weight in gold.

corktina

At the end of the day it's what you have insurance for,,,you never know what someone will do and this guy seems to have changed lane without looking

dr.fuzzenstein

corktina wrote: »

At the end of the day it's what you have insurance for,,,you never know what someone will do and this guy seems to have changed lane without looking

Exactly and of course the above is a very silly thing to do.
Only on Boards would people argue that:
A: You should have expected it and
B: How dare you selfishly hog the bit of road that I was about to use? You fault if I crash into you!

P.C.

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Exactly and of course the above is a very silly thing to do.
Only on Boards would people argue that:
A: You should have expected it and
B: How dare you selfishly hog the bit of road that I was about to use? You fault if I crash into you!

You forget
C: The English are better drivers.

corktina

Had a guy try something similar at the lights in Cork today...me on left, him on right.....pulled off, he assumed his crappy Passat was faster than my Focus and after a few yards , didn't look and tried to pullover into the space where I still was, alongside him....

timmy4u2

corktina wrote: »

Had a guy try something similar at the lights in Cork today...me on left, him on right.....pulled off, he assumed his crappy Passat was faster than my Focus and after a few yards , didn't look and tried to pullover into the space where I still was, alongside him....

Are you saying that you set out to beat him off at the lights? In that you raced him?

I have on occasions in unfamiliar towns with poor signposting found myself in the incorrect lane with the left turn junction not far away with the necessity to get into the inside lane.

One safe way of doing this without inconvenience to other road users is to indicate the intention and to get fast away from the lights so that the manoeuver can be carried out safely.
I would not expect the driver on the inside to treat my car as crappy and try to out run me.
That is inconsiderate and dangerous

corktina

Did I say that? I said I pulled away from the lights, totally within the law. It's another instance of someone trying to find an excuse to have ago at someone, a Boards speciality!

If I wanted to beat him off the line, he'd be eating my dust...a diesel Passat is no match for an ST170

thegreatiam

timmy4u2 wrote: »

Are you saying that you set out to beat him off at the lights? In that you raced him?

I have on occasions in unfamiliar towns with poor signposting found myself in the incorrect lane with the left turn junction not far away with the necessity to get into the inside lane.

One safe way of doing this without inconvenience to other road users is to indicate the intention and to get fast away from the lights so that the manoeuver can be carried out safely.
I would not expect the driver on the inside to treat my car as crappy and try to out run me.
That is inconsiderate and dangerous

She pulled off, he also pulled off. He assumed he was going faster and he pulled left into her lane without looking.

How do you get that she is racing and being inconsiderate and dangerous from that?

corktina

Thanks.....love Tina xxx :-)

timmy4u2

corktina wrote: »

Did I say that? I said I pulled away from the lights, totally within the law. It's another instance of someone trying to find an excuse to have ago at someone, a Boards speciality!

If I wanted to beat him off the line, he'd be eating my dust...a diesel Passat is no match for an ST170

Had a guy try something similar. He assumed his crappy passat was faster than my focus.
Of course you said it. I do not take people up just fot the sake of it.......and it is not about how fast your Focus is.

timmy4u2

thegreatiam wrote: »

She pulled off, he also pulled off. He assumed he was going faster and he pulled left into her lane without looking.

How do you get that she is racing and being inconsiderate and dangerous from that?

?

thegreatiam

timmy4u2 wrote: »

?

do you not understand?

would you like me to use smaller words?
edit:
Since you felt the need to send me this veiled threat ill do as you ask and change this post.

timmy4u2 wrote: »

Are you insinuating that I am stupid. You post seems to indicate that.
That is in breach of the rules, up to you what you do with it in the next three hours, after that I take action.
Attack the post not the poster

No, i am not insinuating you are stupid, I am asking a genuine question as you seem to not understand the situation. How you take that as an attack I don't know.
Do you often have difficulty following the flow of a conversation?

Your post was just a question mark, I assumed you were asking me to clarify some of the terms I had used but were unable to formulate that into a sentence. So I offered to make things easier for you. If you took this to be an affront to your intelligence then I humbly apologies, It was not my intention to confuse you. I see now that it is easily done and I will take care in future to not confuse you further. If you would like me to clarify any of the words I used in this edit then feel free to PM me again.

corktina

timmy4u2 wrote: »

Had a guy try something similar. He assumed his crappy passat was faster than my focus.
Of course you said it. I do not take people up just fot the sake of it.......and it is not about how fast your Focus is.

It's quite simple, I started off at the same speed as him, not faster, the same. He got to a point where he assumed he could pull in, didn't check and didn't expect me to be still alongside him, half a length back...no doubt in his blind spot. How is that racing someone? Who'd bother racing a Passat anyway!

Caliden

The speed / acceleration is a moot point, the point is the other driver attempted to change lane without looking. If you're struggling to understand this, then maybe you should hand in your licence.

corktina

we weren't going particularly fast and it was a 100km/h speed limit anyway!

Moomat

corktina wrote: »

we weren't going particularly fast and it was a 100km/h speed limit anyway!

100km/h limit on a road with traffic lights? I didn't think that was possible

dr.fuzzenstein

OK, new challenge for the trolls:
I was going along a main road at 5 km/h under the posted limit. It was a lovely, sunny day, dry road and a light breeze.
I was looking ahead, behind and to both sides at the same time.
I had 3 other people in the car with me, also looking out, each concentrating on their own window and would shout at me to stop or accelerate in case of danger.
A car came from a sidestreet with a red light for him (and a green one for me), saw me, looked at me, dropped it a gear and floored it, ramming my car side on.
He got out, walked over to my car and said "I know I was at fault, I did it on purpose!"
I have the 3 people in my car, a dashcam recording (4 cams, 1 in each direction with speed and GPS data readout), the eye witness account of 20 passers by and a written report by 4 Gardai who also saw the crash.

Now:
Make it my fault!:P

corktina

Moomat wrote: »

100km/h limit on a road with traffic lights? I didn't think that was possible

south link Cork, pARK AND rIDE LIGHTS...dodgy caps lock

Moomat

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

OK, new challenge for the trolls:
I was going along a main road at 5 km/h under the posted limit. It was a lovely, sunny day, dry road and a light breeze.
I was looking ahead, behind and to both sides at the same time.
I had 3 other people in the car with me, also looking out, each concentrating on their own window and would shout at me to stop or accelerate in case of danger.
A car came from a sidestreet with a red light for him (and a green one for me), saw me, looked at me, dropped it a gear and floored it, ramming my car side on.
He got out, walked over to my car and said "I know I was at fault, I did it on purpose!"
I have the 3 people in my car, a dashcam recording (4 cams, 1 in each direction with speed and GPS data readout), the eye witness account of 20 passers by and a written report by 4 Gardai who also saw the crash.

Now:
Make it my fault!:P

You're clearly in the wrong. You were obviously spreading yourself too thinly. Had you been directing the majority of your concentraion forward and relying on some peripheral vision you would of had time to anticipate his ramming of you based on the alignment of the planets and the colour of his hair.

There's no trolling going on that I can see, just a difference of opinion. Personally if somebody looks like they're going to do something stupid, dangerous or just unsure of what they're at then I'll pull back and give them space. I've spent a long time driving trucks and the fact that you're stuck at 90km/h means it's a much more relaxed journey and you size means you've to really anticipate everything. If I was to take the line that I'm in the right so I'll go ahead anyway I'd be up for genocide at this stage.

corktina

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

OK, new challenge for the trolls:
I was going along a main road at 5 km/h under the posted limit. It was a lovely, sunny day, dry road and a light breeze.
I was looking ahead, behind and to both sides at the same time.
I had 3 other people in the car with me, also looking out, each concentrating on their own window and would shout at me to stop or accelerate in case of danger.
A car came from a sidestreet with a red light for him (and a green one for me), saw me, looked at me, dropped it a gear and floored it, ramming my car side on.
He got out, walked over to my car and said "I know I was at fault, I did it on purpose!"
I have the 3 people in my car, a dashcam recording (4 cams, 1 in each direction with speed and GPS data readout), the eye witness account of 20 passers by and a written report by 4 Gardai who also saw the crash.

Now:
Make it my fault!:P

must be your fault, you aren't Irish are you! (judging solely on your Germanic name)

timmy4u2

Caliden wrote: »

The speed / acceleration is a moot point, the point is the other driver attempted to change lane without looking. If you're struggling to understand this, then maybe you should hand in your licence.

Which one, the IAM or the bogstandard one.

timmy4u2

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

OK, new challenge for the trolls:
I was going along a main road at 5 km/h under the posted limit. It was a lovely, sunny day, dry road and a light breeze.
I was looking ahead, behind and to both sides at the same time.
I had 3 other people in the car with me, also looking out, each concentrating on their own window and would shout at me to stop or accelerate in case of danger.
A car came from a sidestreet with a red light for him (and a green one for me), saw me, looked at me, dropped it a gear and floored it, ramming my car side on.
He got out, walked over to my car and said "I know I was at fault, I did it on purpose!"
I have the 3 people in my car, a dashcam recording (4 cams, 1 in each direction with speed and GPS data readout), the eye witness account of 20 passers by and a written report by 4 Gardai who also saw the crash.

Now:
Make it my fault!:P

Of course you do realise that that is not a traffic accident, it is an assault with intent. So what did you do to him previously for him to retaliate like that?:)

timmy4u2

Moomat wrote: »

You're clearly in the wrong. You were obviously spreading yourself too thinly. Had you been directing the majority of your concentraion forward and relying on some peripheral vision you would of had time to anticipate his ramming of you based on the alignment of the planets and the colour of his hair.

There's no trolling going on that I can see, just a difference of opinion. Personally if somebody looks like they're going to do something stupid, dangerous or just unsure of what they're at then I'll pull back and give them space. I've spent a long time driving trucks and the fact that you're stuck at 90km/h means it's a much more relaxed journey and you size means you've to really anticipate everything. If I was to take the line that I'm in the right so I'll go ahead anyway I'd be up for genocide at this stage.

And of course taking cognisance of the fact that you may not overtake on the inside unless slow moving traffic etc other vehicle is turning right and has indicated, you are going straight ahead, you intend turning left and all of that. No need to repeat the law on the matter. It has been quoted often enough.

Caliden

timmy4u2 wrote: »

And of course taking cognisance of the fact that you may not overtake on the inside unless slow moving traffic etc other vehicle is turning right and has indicated, you are going straight ahead, you intend turning left and all of that. No need to repeat the law on the matter. It has been quoted often enough.

One might argue that the chap in the right lane was moving left before successfully completing their overtaking manoeuvre....

dr.fuzzenstein

corktina wrote: »

must be your fault, you aren't Irish are you! (judging solely on your Germanic name)

Yep, German, but Germanic username coincidence, it's a bad Simpsons reference.