leisure battery

joed571

My leisure battery for camper is compeletly done. Where is the best place to get a new one. Looking to get camper back on road after winter

Not in Ireland

These are competitive by Irish standards.
http://www.batteriesdirect.ie/magento/index.php/leisure-batteries.html

http://www.tayna.co.uk/Leisure-Batteries-C45.html

Uk link, get it over there or take your chances having to ship a 30kg lead box back in the event of a returns claim.

joed571

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

http://www.tayna.co.uk/Leisure-Batteries-C45.html

Uk link, get it over there or take your chances having to ship a 30kg lead box back in the event of a returns claim.

Thanks sir liamalot for the links, as usual my bad luck is in..
i need it next weekend for the galway rally and have inlaws coming from england by boat to visit the week after

niloc1951

Have a look HERE

Banner batteries, which are one of the few which actually do 'what it says on the tin' are widely available here.
Why not give Europower a call and they will tell you your nearest stockist.

moodrater

joed571 wrote: »

Thanks sir liamalot for the links, as usual my bad luck is in..
i need it next weekend for the galway rally and have inlaws coming from england by boat to visit the week after

You could always borrow your car battery for the weekend just don't do the dog on it.

Halfords 100ah leisure battery is only €99 at the moment, it has lower cca than a lot of 100ah 'leisure' batteries which is good and if their weight estimation is accurate 29.8kg then its 30% heavier that most too. That points to decent semi traction like / heavy duty construction. They recently changed supplier from varta to yuasa for car batteries if the leisure battery is yuasa too it should be a quality thing. The manager may tell you the manufacturer. Shame the warranty is short but most leisure batteries die from sulfation and negligence which wouldn't be covered anyway. I'd want to verify that weight in person but if the figures add up I'd be chancing one myself.

http://www.halfords.ie/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_storeId_11101_catalogId_15551_productId_264265_langId_-1_categoryId_212435

Was going to suggest an energy bull myself. I just notices you're in donegal, if you're near letterkenny might be worth asking donagheys what they have then can be cheap for some things.

moodrater

The 100Ah halfords leisure battery thats reduced from €159 to €99 appears to be the 110Ah varta hobby http://www.tayna.co.uk/813010-Varta-Hobby-Leisure-Battery-A28-P3641.html

Halfords used to sell it in black as 110Ah(20h) / 90Ah(5h) for €199.

And that hefty 29+kg seems to be acurate.

CJhaughey

I don't think Varta are anywhere as good as they used to be, I can't speak for their leisure batteries but I was in a tyre and battery place the other day that had 2 pallets of Varta batteries going back under warranty. They are also changing from Varta to Yuasa.

moodrater

CJhaughey wrote: »

I don't think Varta are anywhere as good as they used to be, I can't speak for their leisure batteries but I was in a tyre and battery place the other day that had 2 pallets of Varta batteries going back under warranty. They are also changing from Varta to Yuasa.

This battery is an old model though (assuming thats whats on the shelf when you go to collect it) the new varta 'professional' leisure batteries are high cca lightweight, low cycle starter jobbies.

The manager in halfords told me that they changed suppliers only because varta couldn't supply stop start batteries for many models and yuasa refused to supply them unless it got an exclusive contract. I'm sure they're probably using similar tactics elsewhere.

CJhaughey

moodrater wrote: »

This battery is an old model though (assuming thats whats on the shelf when you go to collect it) the new varta 'professional' leisure batteries are high cca lightweight, low cycle starter jobbies.

The manager in halfords told me that they changed suppliers only because varta couldn't supply stop start batteries for many models and yuasa refused to supply them unless it got an exclusive contract. I'm sure they're probably using similar tactics elsewhere.

Yes but two pallets of Varta batteries going back under warranty would make a person think?

joed571

Thanks for all the replies folks. I got a 110ah one today in Donagheys for €89. It was the same as the one that was in it so happy enough.

moodrater

joed571 wrote: »

Thanks for all the replies folks. I got a 110ah one today in Donagheys for €89. It was the same as the one that was in it so happy enough.

Nice one they are great for some things, what make was it?

moodrater

CJhaughey wrote: »

Yes but two pallets of Varta batteries going back under warranty would make a person think?

Varta is just a label now varta silver = bosch silver = alphaline etc. so if you want to write off 'varta' you need to write off johnson controls which means probably 80% of batteries in europe. Batteries could be from germany, slovenia, china, korea, brazil etc. A bad batch of 063 batteries could easily account for those kind of returns. You never know what you're getting anymore or where its coming from or how its been changed since the last time you got one or since the lase review or batch. It may be a lump of ****e who knows but the spec and weight of the halfords one is more promising than the 1000cca 20kg 110ah so called leisure batteries sold under other names.

joed571

moodrater wrote: »

Nice one they are great for some things, what make was it?

It was a wetline

niloc1951

joed571 wrote: »

It was a wetline

Wetline is a brand supplied by Unipart. Unipart do not manufacture, they are a distribution company of bought in products.

The Wetline range of batteries are of unknown origin, probably the cheapest supplier which will give Unipart the biggest profit margin.

Personally I would recommend the purchase of a battery from a supplier/manufacturer who has at least a web presence which gives comprehensive specifications for its products. For example, Varta, Banner, Exide, Yuasa, to name just four.

€89 is real cheap for a 110 a/h battery, a premium one should cost at least double that price.
However it is probably good value if it is only for occasional use, never discharged below about 75% (not left go below about 12.2 volts when under constant load) and always fully charged immediately after use.
Such batteries can killed off quickly if subjected to frequent discharge below 12.1 volts, particularly so if left in that state for any length of time.

I have just replace my pair of Varta 95 a/h semi-traction batteries, which were original equipment, after eight years of heavy use with a pair of Banner Energy Bull 115a/h

niloc1951

Kudos on getting 8 years Niloc.

niloc1951 wrote: »

Personally I would recommend the purchase of a battery from a supplier/manufacturer who has at least a web presence which gives comprehensive specifications for its products. For example, Varta, Banner, Exide, Yuasa, to name just four.

Me too.

Good luck trying to find any useful practical information from Exide let alone comprehensive :rolleyes:.
Banner don't seem to provide much in the way of tech data either. Bosch are another reputable chief offender. Shame because if they did I'd give them more consideration. Have you got a recommended charge profile for yours? Bulk/absorption/float set points and temp. compensation rate?

niloc1951

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

Kudos on getting 8 years Niloc.



Me too.

Good luck trying to find any useful practical information from Exide let alone comprehensive :rolleyes:.
Banner don't seem to provide much in the way of tech data either. Bosch are another reputable chief offender. Shame because if they did I'd give them more consideration. Have you got a recommended charge profile for yours? Bulk/absorption/float set points and temp. compensation rate?

Have a look HERE, it's quite educational as to what to look for in any battery purchase.

Take the 956 01 as an example.

The Capacity is listed as 80 (ah) at K20 so what does that mean
It means that the fully charged battery will be fully discharged after 20 hours of use.
Being rated at 80 amps that equates to having been discharged at a rate of 4 amps per hour after 20 hours it will have delivered up its 80 amps and be flat.

To complicate things the formula is not linear, so if for example the discharge rate is 8 amps per hour it won't last 10 hours (double the rate won't give half the time), it will in fact last quite a shorter time, about 8 hours.
It would therefore be an 8amp X 8hours battery, a 64 ah battery

By the same law Peukert Effect if the discharge rate is say 2 amps per hour it will last a lot longer than 40 hours (half the rate will give over double the time), about 50 hours
It would therefore be a 2amp X 50hours battery, a 100ah battery

So the ah rating marked on a battery without hourly rate of discharge used in the calculation by the manufacturer isn't worth Jack Sh1t when it come to knowing how the battery will perform and how much battery you are getting for your money,

Secondly the lack of a Cold Discharge EN (A) otherwise know as cranking power, an important figure for a battery designed for engine starting indicates that that particular battery is specially designed for leisure use and not for engine starting.

joed571

The new battery is the same as the old which was in the camper when i bought it over four years ago and gets used at least once a month. So if i get another four years out of one that costs half the price of a good one im happy enough

niloc1951

niloc1951 wrote: »

Have a look HERE, it's quite educational as to what to look for in any battery purchase.

Charging requirements usually.
DOD vs cycle life graph.
De-rating for temperature graph.

They're not listed.
Nor is the technical guide very technical.

Alas.

Macspower

I have 3 batteries in mine and 2 of them died during the year. Rotten Egg Smell..

these were the 2 newer ones and bought from Halfords but I did get 4 years from them. They are actually warped now that I look carfully at them.

In the meanwhile I just disconnected them and worked off the original battery which is 10 years old and still going. I'm going to replace them this year but I'm just going to run with 2 batteries as I think the 3 was overkill

moodrater

Macspower wrote: »

I have 3 batteries in mine and 2 of them died during the year. Rotten Egg Smell..

these were the 2 newer ones and bought from Halfords but I did get 4 years from them. They are actually warped now that I look carfully at them.

In the meanwhile I just disconnected them and worked off the original battery which is 10 years old and still going. I'm going to replace them this year but I'm just going to run with 2 batteries as I think the 3 was overkill

60/70ah or 100/110ah? The 60/70ah battery is not a real leisure battery its identical to the standard spec 072 standard car battery in every way. Did you check electrolyte, and top up as necessary, whats your float voltage?

Aidan_M_M

I wouldn't take a present of an Exide leisure battery unless it was going to the metal recyclers! I used have to replace then on brand new MHs.

moodrater

moodrater wrote: »

The 100Ah halfords leisure battery thats reduced from €159 to €99 appears to be the 110Ah varta hobby http://www.tayna.co.uk/813010-Varta-Hobby-Leisure-Battery-A28-P3641.html

Halfords used to sell it in black as 110Ah(20h) / 90Ah(5h) for €199.

And that hefty 29+kg seems to be acurate.

A great example of the moving of furniture that goes on in the battery world.

Halfords Leisure Battery:


Bosch L4 Leisure Battery:


Lucas LP663:


Varta Promotive:


"The original Varta Hobby batteries are still available it seems, under the Bosch branding and are the L4 type series"
http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/view-profile.asp?action=view&uid=448

http://www.ebay.ie/itm/12V-110AH-LUCAS-663-Heavy-Duty-Lorry-Truck-Taxi-Marine-Boat-Leisure-Battery-/190646490066

kelbal

Hi guys. I need to get a new battery myself. Was originally veering towards the Banner Energy Bull 115AH.....
http://www.batteriesdirect.ie/magento/index.php/leisure-batteries/banner-energy-bull-95901-12v-115ah.html

But after looking at the 100Ah Halfords one for €99, it has me tempted. Anyone bought it?

niloc1951

kelbal wrote: »

Hi guys. I need to get a new battery myself. Was originally veering towards the Banner Energy Bull 115AH.....
http://www.batteriesdirect.ie/magento/index.php/leisure-batteries/banner-energy-bull-95901-12v-115ah.html

But after looking at the 100Ah Halfords one for €99, it has me tempted. Anyone bought it?

Banner are a major manufacturer/supplier of original equipment to various auto manufacturers and have come out well in tests carried out by The Caravan Club and other organisations into 'leisure batteries'.
http://www.caravanclub.co.uk/media/6552072/technical.pdf
http://www.practicalcaravan.com/forum/technical/leisure-battery-investigation-caravan-club

The Halfords one is definitely cheaper but quality costs

kelbal

niloc1951 wrote: »

Banner are a major manufacturer/supplier of original equipment to various auto manufacturers and have come out well in tests carried out by The Caravan Club and other organisations into 'leisure batteries'.
http://www.caravanclub.co.uk/media/6552072/technical.pdf
http://www.practicalcaravan.com/forum/technical/leisure-battery-investigation-caravan-club

The Halfords one is definitely cheaper but quality costs

Phoned Halfords, that €99 one is a Yuasa battery. They seem to have a decent reputation? Its probably not a dud thing ( like the exide ones Aidan mentioned) ??

niloc1951

niloc1951 wrote: »

http://www.caravanclub.co.uk/media/6552072/technical.pdf
http://www.practicalcaravan.com/forum/technical/leisure-battery-investigation-caravan-club

You always have the best battery porn Niloc .

I recently operated a 2 ton scissor lift running on 4 x T-105s parallel series to give 450Ah @ 12v except one of the 6v's had fallen in battle and was engulfed in it's own gubbins. :eek:
So I could only speculate the scissor lift was operating with 300Ah at 9v and self-discharging like an open balloon.
Three hours operating no bother and back to docking station for decommissioning on my recommendation.
Forget camping batteries folks; 6v industry grade; scissorlifts, golf buggies, mobility equipment.

kelbal

I was talking to a retailer today, and he was of the opinion that a battery which is the standard leisure battery size, roughly 35x18x23cm, is never in reality going to be more than about 90Ah. It may say 110 or 115, but in reality that won't be the case.
Is there any merit to what he says do you guys reckon?

thanks

Eh, you can do some things with plate structure, grid composition, electrolyte specific gravity, material purity etc..
I'd default to the if it's not heavy it's not lead school of thought.

The charging system is more important than batteries. Longer service life, self-discharge defeating etc.
Batteries are just a buffer not a source.

A bad or mediocre charging system/regime will not fully charge batteries and therefore cause permanent capacity loss, a bank could be down 50% capacity by charge cycle 200 from most generic chargers I look at, combined with climate, unless you float them between cycles.

CCA means many different things to many different companies too. It's not standardised to voltage min or temperature.

niloc1951

As Sir Liamalot says, 2 X 6 volt traction batteries are best, but a very expensive option only to be considered if long-term off grid use is contemplated combined with multiple cycles of very deep discharge.

For the ordinary punter the best investment for long term value are genuine leisure batteries of the flooded semi-traction construction type combined with a decent four or five step charging system.

Anything with engine starting capability is a different beast.

Macspower

I have 2 of the halfords ones in for the last 6 years...

they are now both completely dead. Rotten egg smell on charging and warped looking..

I am now running off a standard battery until I get 2 new ones.. the standard battery is not up to the job at all and once discharged it's basically banjaxed..

I suppose 6 years was a good run from a pair of batteries.. If they are 99 euro I'd consider them again.

kelbal

Just dropped into Halfords, and the battery they have on offer is actually a 115Ah one - for €99. Its a Yuasa battery. Needless to say, I left with one in my hands.

niloc1951

niloc1951 wrote: »

As Sir Liamalot says, 2 X 6 volt traction

T-105's are semi-traction and competitively priced for what you get imho. 225Ah for £200.
Normal discharge levels.
I wouldn't drop a real traction to 20% either.

marzyt

Hi there
I installed two new Banner running bull leisure batteries 92ah in my hymer motorhome in auguct 2011 and now find that they are loosing the charge slowly over a few days even with the 12v main switch off could it be that they are weak and not holding the charge or is there possibly a leak somewhere . I usually have the motorhome plugged into 240 v most of the time ,I did find the power quite low a few days ago when i left the van unplugged from the 240v any ideas

niloc1951

marzyt wrote: »

Hi there
I installed two new Banner running bull leisure batteries 92ah in my hymer motorhome in auguct 2011 and now find that they are loosing the charge slowly over a few days even with the 12v main switch off could it be that they are weak and not holding the charge or is there possibly a leak somewhere . I usually have the motorhome plugged into 240 v most of the time ,I did find the power quite low a few days ago when i left the van unplugged from the 240v any ideas

Running Bull are designed to cars with stop/start technology. Perhaps their Energy Bull designed specifically for leisure applications would have performed better.

Is the electrolyte level ok if it's the flooded type.
Is the onboard charger set to the correct profile for the type of battery (if it's adjustable), I believe there are two different types of Running Bull, flooded and AGM, each requires a different charging profile to maximise its charge/life.

A quality leisure battery connected to the correct type of 3 or 4 step charger most of the time should give a much better return, over five years of life could reasonably be expected, I've know a pair that lasted eight years.

moodrater

marzyt wrote: »

Hi there
I installed two new Banner running bull leisure batteries 92ah in my hymer motorhome in auguct 2011 and now find that they are loosing the charge slowly over a few days even with the 12v main switch off could it be that they are weak and not holding the charge or is there possibly a leak somewhere . I usually have the motorhome plugged into 240 v most of the time ,I did find the power quite low a few days ago when i left the van unplugged from the 240v any ideas

If you don't have a multimeter to check for a drain then charge fully for a couple of days, then disconnect them and see if they maintain charge over time. Are they AGM batteries they don't like being overcharged you'd want to check your charger voltages / if you're thinking of going AGM again.

marzyt

hi there
many thanks niloc 1951 for your reply, I have rechecked the batteries and note that they are indeed sealed AGM batteries, I have checked with Eoropower who supply them in this country and was told that they are used extensively in motorhomes . I will check with the supplier who installed them but i have no doubt that the settings are ok on the charger. The batteries are continueing to loose power when not plugged into the 240v

moodrater

marzyt wrote: »

I will check with the supplier who installed them but i have no doubt that the settings are ok on the charger. The batteries are continueing to loose power when not plugged into the 240v

You don't know whether its self discharge within the battery or something draining it without a meter or disconnecting the batteries from the circuit for a period and rechecking them. You also should test the batteries independently as you may just have one bad battery.
Whatever about the 'settings' most of the shaudt electroblocks had a final charge of 14.3v which is too low for the banner bull to achieve full charge and a float of 13.8v which is too high and no temperature compensation. That was regardless of gel/flooded setting. And thats assuming its operating correctly.

marzyt

marzyt wrote: »

I have checked with Eoropower who supply them in this country and was told that they are used extensively in motorhomes.

Doesn't make it right though.

1 bad battery in a bank = 2 x weakest battery
Important information on parallel batteries
AGM's are a pain, they are very unforgiving of minor charging descrepencies.

Is there anything that could be bypassing your main isolator? Other than a battery monitor.

I recently learned why manufacturers spread the myth that undercharge is better than overcharge, and why most chargers are set too low. Most inverters shut down at 15v as over-voltage protection. Whereas a decent temperature compensating charger on a 14.7v set-point could be well over 15.5v.

As a rule of thumb the ambient Irish climate requires a 0.3v boost across a wet LA battery.

marzyt

I charged the battery up pretty well and then put on all the lights to see how long they would last before the alarm came on and found i had power for about one hour sounds like they are bunched , any suggestion as to suitable replacements ? i dont think i will get the same again.

niloc1951

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

Doesn't make it right though.

1 bad battery in a bank = 2 x weakest battery
Important information on parallel batteries
AGM's are a pain, they are very unforgiving of minor charging descrepencies.

Is there anything that could be bypassing your main isolator? Other than a battery monitor.

I recently learned why manufacturers spread the myth that undercharge is better than overcharge, and why most chargers are set too low. Most inverters shut down at 15v as over-voltage protection. Whereas a decent temperature compensating charger on a 14.7v set-point could be well over 15.5v.

As a rule of thumb the ambient Irish climate requires a 0.3v boost across a wet LA battery.

I had two batteries wired in the usual method 1 way, interestingly the furthest away battery did give up the ghost first, all be it in its eight year, but the other one was still ok.
As recommended I changed both and rewired them as in method 2.
When time permits I am going to change the wiring to that shown in method 3.
Having invested over €300 in the new pair I plan to maximise their return.

When at home they are on permanent charge and when away, after use off grid, they get a whack from One Of These when I'm on the move.

SmartGuage

Cwaor nice setup. That's a fast charger though isn't it? On sealed batteries...easy enough break into them anyways.
I'm hardly surprised the one closest your charger lasted longest Niloc. I reckon you know best how to treat them. In your case the nearest was getting the fullest charge, scarcely the norm though. Loading configuration being the same as charging.

I've got an 115mm² series link lead on standby for when I get my 2 x 6v's delivered . I'm predicting a 1.5m run to keep the van balanced.

If you only have two batteries method 2 & method 3 are likely the same.

SmartGuage wrote:

Finally, if you only have 2 batteries, then simply linking them together and taking the main feeds from diagonally opposite corners cannot be improved upon.

moodrater

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

Important information on parallel batteries

Not content to accept their calculations I just simulated it using an up to date gel battery model and ...... spot on.

marzyt wrote: »

I charged the battery up pretty well and then put on all the lights to see how long they would last before the alarm came on and found i had power for about one hour sounds like they are bunched , any suggestion as to suitable replacements ? i dont think i will get the same again.

Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater, you may still have a one good battery or a defective charger you really need to check them separately.

You questioning my sources Mr. M.? :pac:

[Edit] Probably right to(o)...;)..carry on.

marzyt

marzyt wrote: »

put on all the lights to see how long they would last before the alarm came on

Are you running lights off an inverter? What's the total load in watts?
Waiting for the inverter to start ringing is a very bad practice, the bell is set to 10.5v ideally for battery longevity you wouldn't be dropping below 12.0v at the absolute min., 12.2v is recommended cut-off.

niloc1951

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

Cwaor nice setup. That's a fast charger though isn't it? On sealed batteries...easy enough break into them anyways.
I'm hardly surprised the one closest your charger lasted longest Niloc. I reckon you know best how to treat them. In your case the nearest was getting the fullest charge, scarcely the norm though. Loading configuration being the same as charging.

I've got an 115mm² series link lead on standby for when I get my 2 x 6v's delivered . I'm predicting a 1.5m run to keep the van balanced.

If you only have two batteries method 2 & method 3 are likely the same.

Although the unit has DIP switches to alter the charging profile depending on battery type, 'ordinary' wet flooded which can have their electrolyte level checked and topped up are recommended as the most aggressive charging profile is best but results in water loss.

I usually need to top mine up a couple of times a year, but I do spend extended times off grid and have a few power hungry appliances.

My Banner Energy Bulls performed very well last autumn while touring France for two weeks using Aires every night, particularly considering they were running a CPAP Machine each night, plus all the other usual stuff like TV/Sat/radio, heating, lighting, water pumping, etc.

marzyt

Took your advise moodrater,I fully charged both batteries and disconnected the leads for two days and discovered that they are fully holding the charge and to be sure took them both to a local motor factors who tested them and found them to be in a very good condition . looks like my problem may lay in the charging system or as he suggests the relay device hopefully will get to the bottom of it

moodrater

marzyt wrote: »

Took your advise moodrater,I fully charged both batteries and disconnected the leads for two days and discovered that they are fully holding the charge and to be sure took them both to a local motor factors who tested them and found them to be in a very good condition . looks like my problem may lay in the charging system or as he suggests the relay device hopefully will get to the bottom of it

Few quid saved so, get/borrow a multimeter if you don't have one then its just a matter of pulling/replacing fuses / relays until the drain is gone to find it.

If theres a maplin near you : http://www.maplin.co.uk/p/ut-30b-digital-compact-multimeter-n15by

marzyt

marzyt wrote: »

...then put on all the lights to see how long they would last before the alarm came on and found i had power for about one hour sounds like they are bunched...

You used ~1500Wh on lights in an hour?!?
Any pic's of this relay device?

+1 get a multimeter although anything glowing red with heat emissions might be a likely suspect.

moodrater

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

+1 get a multimeter although anything glowing red with heat emissions might be a likely suspect.

Batteries were never charged in the first place, the electroblock probably doesn't put out enough voltage to give them a full charge in the first place and with the kind of drain he's talking about it was probably only putting a couple of amps at most into the batteries so they'd have to be charging for a few days to get anywhere near capacity. Probably getting a surface charge on them those control panels are useless for assessing charge and capacity.