ANOTHER Tesco in the city centre?!!!

AlexDublin

Do we really need another Tesco in the southside city centre? There is already quite a large one in Temple Bar about 100 metres away from this new one on Dame street. Do Dublin City council really care? Dublin is a great city and it saddens me to see the city centre begin to fill up even more with Tescos and Mcdonalds and any other multinational chain who has the money to fill it. What about local businesses? What about homegrown ventures. What are your opinions?

January

As long as it creates jobs I don't really give a fiddlers.

Bandara

January wrote: »

As long as it creates jobs I don't really give a fiddlers.

It doesn't, Tesco opening actually causes more jobs locally to be lost than they create.

January

Bandara wrote: »

It doesn't, Tesco opening actually causes more jobs locally to be lost than they create.

Really, have you got the stats to prove that?

arybvtcw0eolkf

The one in Templebar is fairly small in fairness.

Konata

Where exactly is the new one opening....?

(Currently living abroad, so not in tune with these things!)

EyeSight

Konata wrote: »

Where exactly is the new one opening....?

(Currently living abroad, so not in tune with these things!)

i think the OP means the tiny new one on Dame street by abercrombie.

Getting real tired of the "not another franchise" threads claiming they take everyones jobs. If the demand is there it only makes good business to open. Free market and all that.
The temple bar one is small too. Besides i never do my shopping in small local corner shops, it would be so expensive and they wouldn't have a good variety

Aard

Didn't this Tesco replace a Londis? It's not like we lost a homegrown grand dame of Dame Street there....

thebostoncrab

Plus the front of the Dame Street one isn't done in typical Tesco style, it matches it's surroundings. To be honest, I think recognise it as Tesco at first!

cson

Another new one going in around Lower Dorset St too at the NCR junction.

JTMan

What the south city centre needs most is an Aldi or Lidl.

wicklowwonder

Could do with a Tesco in the Smithfield area. Decent population but all there is around is two Centras in Stoneybatter and Fresh and another Centra and Spar close by. Nearest Tesco is Prussia St. or Jervis St. Superquinn is HSQ and Dunnes is Henry St. I think a Tesco or Dunnes would do really well especially against Fresh prices.

Lux23

Yea, I don't understand why they haven't gone in there yet.

ProudDUB

It's damm near impossible for a local, home grown business to open up in town any more. The rates and rents are so high, the only businesses that can afford them are the multinationals with very deep pockets. And some of them are pulling out as the cost of doing business there is too high. Just look at all the businesses that have deserted the Grafton St in recent years, many of them foreign owed like HMV or Waterstones. I'd rather the building in the city centre have tenants (even if they are the likes of Tesco) than for them to sit empty and boarded up, making the surrounding area look like crap & acting like a magnet for junkies and anti social behaviour.

Aard

Exactly. If a homegrown, independent supermarket were to open up on Dame Street, prices there would be exorbitant. Tesco, Spar, and the likes manage it by having economies of scale.


I don't get the multinational-hate in general. People don't want McDonald's setting up shop in the city centre because the restaurants are garish and gaudy, but they're OK with drive-thrus in a sea of parking eating up the suburbs? The new McDonald's in Temple Bar looks fantastic, and contributes to the high-quality built environment., unlike its suburban sisters. Same goes for the new Tesco, compared to what was there before it.

BMJD

I think a lot of people just don't like the same soulless, monotonous town/city centres that blight many parts of the UK and USA. Exact same shops, exact same layouts, exact same products everywhere. Some variety please

Aard

I don't think Dublin could be described as "soulless" or "monotonous". It is unique among Irish cities and towns, and certainly distinctive from other large European and American cities.

liffeylite

As others have said, Dublin is packed full of independent stores. Pubs, restaurants, cafes shops etc. Sure there are chain stores, but compared to any UK city other than London you will find much more independent businesses of all types in Dublin than you will in the rest of Ireland or the UK.

Similar argument was had about starbucks taking over the city. yes, there are a lot of chain coffee stores, but there are many more independents dotted across the whole city and it is great to see.

The UK is saturated with chain pubs, in Dublin there aren't ANY! ( granted I know Wetherspoons are coming but 3 or 4 of these dotted about the city over the next few years isn't going to make an impact)

Dublin has a fantastic mix of independent businesses and it is a rare thing these days.

Jamie2k9

This is the first I have heard of Tesco on Dame St, I pass the area a couple of times a week and have never noticed it.

LXFlyer

It is beside the southbound bus stop for the 16.

Durz0 Blint

Its an awful Tesco

Really poor layout to it and it has little in the way of meals to go (hot counter etc...) that would be staple for people travelling through the city centre in need of a quick bite.

markpb

Durz0 Blint wrote: »

Its an awful Tesco

Really poor layout to it and it has little in the way of meals to go (hot counter etc...) that would be staple for people travelling through the city centre in need of a quick bite.

There are an awful lot of people actually living in the city centre now, much more than in the past. Perhaps they're targeting residents rather than suburbanites?

hfallada

Its a tesco express or a tesco metro meaning its about the size of a spar. Its literally one or two staff members and a security guard. I would take another convenience store over a vacant unit any day. I dont understand why Dunnes doesnt have small stores like tesco express. There is such a huge volume of people that area of Dublin 2 there can be dozens of stores without saturation.

Im not made about Tesco. But they are one of the largest buyers of Irish food and export huge amounts of it to the UK. But Starbucks on the other hand is everywhere in town and contributes hardly anything to the Irish economy. Its pays its staff less than in the US(and the US employees get health insurance) and its known to very thrifty with its taxes in the UK, so you can pretty much assume the same in Ireland

PriceWatch

wicklowwonder wrote: »

Could do with a Tesco in the Smithfield area. Decent population but all there is around is two Centras in Stoneybatter and Fresh and another Centra and Spar close by. Nearest Tesco is Prussia St. or Jervis St. Superquinn is HSQ and Dunnes is Henry St. I think a Tesco or Dunnes would do really well especially against Fresh prices.

It's coming...Planning application up in an empty unit beside Fresh. Much as I hate Tesco, I'm delighted to see something open beside Fresh as they really are making the most of their monopoly in Smithfield.

wicklowwonder

PriceWatch wrote: »

It's coming...Planning application up in an empty unit beside Fresh. Much as I hate Tesco, I'm delighted to see something open beside Fresh as they really are making the most of their monopoly in Smithfield.

is there? which unit? Down beside Paddy Power? That is great news, even one of those Tesco Express would bring some competition, Fresh prices are the dearest of any supermarket I know of.

Sulla Felix

hfallada wrote: »

Im not made about Tesco. But they are one of the largest buyers of Irish food and export huge amounts of it to the UK.

I never understood this argument. Surely this is largely to do with the fact that they're just a large company? If half of tesco customers tomorrow decided to shop in aldi forever after, yes tesco would have to cut their orders for Irish produce, but aldi would increase theirs, no? What I'd really like to see numbers on are the proportions of irish produce versus foreign, rather than the simple gross. Maybe they'd still come out on top, I don't know, but it'd be a more meaningful metric.

Anyway, slight tangent there, I'm happy to see the unit filled, it's a little bit cramped inside.

AlexDublin

Im not mad on this "lets fill the unit asap" thing. I would prefer to see the city centre as somewhere thats fresh and exciting and uniquely Dublin. I really don't want to see the city centre become just like any other international high street or shopping centre. I not sure on how to do this, I just think that sticking another supermarket chain in isnt gonna add to my experience of Dame street.

NoCrackHaving

AlexDublin wrote: »

Im not mad on this "lets fill the unit asap" thing. I would prefer to see the city centre as somewhere thats fresh and exciting and uniquely Dublin. I really don't want to see the city centre become just like any other international high street or shopping centre. I not sure on how to do this, I just think that sticking another supermarket chain in isnt gonna add to my experience of Dame street.

You aren't sure on how to do this because you can't. The idea of the free market/capitalism etc. is driven on this whole idea. Unless you begin restricting certain buildings to certain types of shops (which wouldn't work due to rent costs etc.) this won't happen.

Also look around the whole Georges Street/South William/Exchequer Street area, right in the heart of the city but all independent shops/bars/restaurants, locally owned. Hardly multi-national there.

Also as an aside, as someone who lives in a city centre, we need supermarkets too! I have lots of small butchers/greengrocers etc. but sometimes when you just want a frozen pizza or some ham and cheese, Tesco Metro is great!

Aard

By the sounds of it, a lot of people seem to only be sticking to the main drags. No wonder they fear "blandification". Venture even a little bit further afield, as suggested above, and people should find the apparently elusive "uniquely Dublin". The supposed problem of the international high street really is confined to only a handful of streets out of hundreds.

Dandelion6

PriceWatch wrote: »

It's coming...Planning application up in an empty unit beside Fresh. Much as I hate Tesco, I'm delighted to see something open beside Fresh as they really are making the most of their monopoly in Smithfield.

That planning application has been up for ages. It's stuck in an impasse over whether or not they can get a licence to sell alcohol. This has been refused so far due to the number of drunks already congregating in the area.

Although Fresh is much too expensive to do the everyday shop in, it does carry a number of items that I can't find in other supermarkets. If Tesco was to go in and drive it out of business (as I believe it would), that variety would be lost. You can be pretty sure a smallish Tesco will have only the bog standard selection of items that its "local" shops everywhere have.

wicklowwonder

Dandelion6 wrote: »

That planning application has been up for ages. It's stuck in an impasse over whether or not they can get a licence to sell alcohol. This has been refused so far due to the number of drunks already congregating in the area.

Although Fresh is much too expensive to do the everyday shop in, it does carry a number of items that I can't find in other supermarkets. If Tesco was to go in and drive it out of business (as I believe it would), that variety would be lost. You can be pretty sure a smallish Tesco will have only the bog standard selection of items that its "local" shops everywhere have.

What is in Fresh that can't be got elsewhere, just out curiosity?

Fresh sells beer, Tesco should be allowed. You kind of get used to drunks around, never see them disturb anyway but that is sad too, surely there is something that could be done? What is the attraction of Smithfield to them?

AlexDublin

NoCrackHaving wrote: »

You aren't sure on how to do this because you can't. The idea of the free market/capitalism etc. is driven on this whole idea. Unless you begin restricting certain buildings to certain types of shops (which wouldn't work due to rent costs etc.) this won't happen.

Also look around the whole Georges Street/South William/Exchequer Street area, right in the heart of the city but all independent shops/bars/restaurants, locally owned. Hardly multi-national there.

Also as an aside, as someone who lives in a city centre, we need supermarkets too! I have lots of small butchers/greengrocers etc. but sometimes when you just want a frozen pizza or some ham and cheese, Tesco Metro is great!

I disagree that that it is impossible to stop the blandification of the city centre. I think its entirely possible. You raise an interesting points as to whether the free market/ capitalism works in relation to our city and its workings. Perhaps zoning buildings or streets; like you mentioned; is a way forward.

markpb

I'm not sure zoning would be allowed prohibit multinationals or chains. It can be used to direct what use the building can be put to and, if it's commercial, what types of businesses can use it, eg cafe / convenience shop / supermarket / clothes shop.

Commercial landlords prefer renting to chains because they can be guaranteed continuity of rent even if the tenant decides to close a single shop. This is why you see empty units in otherwise very desirable locations - the chain has closed that shop but still has to complete the lease with the landlord. With smaller businesses, they can't get this and see a bigger risk. If you want to encourage smaller businesses, you need a different type of owner. Temple Bar is an example of this, though it's success is subjective. Some cities buy and lease units in strategic locations so they can encourage specific types of businesses or mandate specific conditions (like staying open late).

Aard

AlexDublin wrote: »

I disagree that that it is impossible to stop the blandification of the city centre. I think its entirely possible. [...]Perhaps zoning buildings or streets; like you mentioned; is a way forward.

How do you think it is possible? (My emphasis above.)

You mention "zoning", but are short on specifics. The planning system (which zoning is part of) does not get involved in competition, or viability of specific businesses.

So you'd have to find a non-planning way of achieving your goal. State-subsidised rent? Some sort of licencing system? I'm running out of ideas fast, and not sure it's worth it. As I said above, your worry only relates to a few streets in the city centre.

jonnny68

Are some people stuck with interesting things to post about.

How is something like this even worthy of discussion :-\

Mr Simpson

jonnny68 wrote: »

Are some people stuck with interesting things to post about.

How is something like this even worthy of discussion :-\

If you don't like the discussion, don't take part

hfallada

markpb wrote: »

I'm not sure zoning would be allowed prohibit multinationals or chains. It can be used to direct what use the building can be put to and, if it's commercial, what types of businesses can use it, eg cafe / convenience shop / supermarket / clothes shop.

The EU would grill Ireland for this. Member states are not supposed to favour their indigenous companies over multinationals. A most problem with irish Retailers is their lack of uniqueness. Most Irish retailers are carbon copies of a store found elsewhere in the world.

NoCrackHaving

hfallada wrote: »

The EU would grill Ireland for this. Member states are not supposed to favour their indigenous companies over multinationals. A most problem with irish Retailers is their lack of uniqueness. Most Irish retailers are carbon copies of a store found elsewhere in the world.

Like everywhere really, I've lived in 4 major cities outside Ireland and shops are similar because that's what people want. Like I said, want to buy a frozen pizza? It's the same type of shop that will sell it whether you're in Dublin, Chicago, Munich or Tokyo.

AlexDublin

Aard wrote: »

How do you think it is possible? (My emphasis above.)

You mention "zoning", but are short on specifics. The planning system (which zoning is part of) does not get involved in competition, or viability of specific businesses.

So you'd have to find a non-planning way of achieving your goal. State-subsidised rent? Some sort of licencing system? I'm running out of ideas fast, and not sure it's worth it. As I said above, your worry only relates to a few streets in the city centre.

I don't claim to know how to create a great city but I am very interested in the topic. And I believe it is very important. It is interesting reading the various opinions on here.


This is very interesting markpb "If you want to encourage smaller businesses, you need a different type of owner. Temple Bar is an example of this, though it's success is subjective. Some cities buy and lease units in strategic locations so they can encourage specific types of businesses or mandate specific conditions".

Aard

Which streets are the problem though? Name a few, because there really aren't that many.

Would you make it so that Tesco and other international retailers could only set up in non-Main Street or non-City Centre locations?

L1011

January wrote: »

Really, have you got the stats to prove that?

Its commonly known that opening any large out-of-town retail centre casues job losses in the area, often equal to or exceeding the jobs "created" by the new centre. Definitely not a UK-only phenomenon.

Same applies to a lesser extent to them opening new town/city centre supermarkets like this one, but that's normal competition rather than the serious distortion of competiton that out of town ones are.

ibarelycare

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

This is the first I have heard of Tesco on Dame St, I pass the area a couple of times a week and have never noticed it.

It's been open a few months. It's more College Green than Dame Street technically...next door to The Bank bar, where Londis used to be. It's not a big supermarket, it's just a convenience store really.


They're currently renovating the old National Irish Bank near it too, and opening H&M there.

cat_dog

I'd rather another Tesco than an Aldi or Lidl. Sick of em.

tricky D

MYOB wrote: »

Its commonly known that opening any large out-of-town retail centre casues job losses in the area, often equal to or exceeding the jobs "created" by the new centre. Definitely not a UK-only phenomenon.

Same applies to a lesser extent to them opening new town/city centre supermarkets like this one, but that's normal competition rather than the serious distortion of competiton that out of town ones are.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wal-Mart_Effect

EyeSight

tricky D wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wal-Mart_Effect

Don't know if you can compare it to the Irish economy. Besides these studies are one sided and don't go far enough.
Walmart opens, local stores may close. Walmart may hire the same amount of employees(sometimes more as they're usually massive). But what about the savings the local shoppers make? They will more than likely spend that money in other stores in their local area.

Aard

cat_dog wrote: »

I'd rather another Tesco than an Aldi or Lidl. Sick of em.

I can't think of any Aldi or Lidl in the city centre except for Parnell Street, and Thomas Street at a stretch. Where else is there one?

January

Aard wrote: »

I can't think of any Aldi or Lidl in the city centre except for Parnell Street, and Thomas Street at a stretch. Where else is there one?

They are the only ones.

cat_dog

There's an Aldi and a Lidl in Rathmines

markpb

cat_dog wrote: »

There's an Aldi and a Lidl in Rathmines

Rathmines is hardly the city centre. Not far outside it maybe.

Aard

Rathmines is hardly "City Centre". Anyway, how does Aldi/Lidl make for a worse urban environment?


ETA: Nice wording markpb :pac:

cat_dog

Aard wrote: »

I can't think of any Aldi or Lidl in the city centre except for Parnell Street, and Thomas Street at a stretch. Where else is there one?

Cork Street as well.