...PAC hearings today and the AGS....

galwaytt

I watched all this today and my response is. .... What a waste of taxpayers money this matter that is. ...

Garda performance has no place in front of the PAC.

Indeed you could argue that the fact that this had ended up in front of an ACCOUNTS committee, as a revenue issue, proves that which motorists have long suspected: that the points system is a revenue generating mechanism, not a policing one.

Mind you, more than one member of AGS has said it to me in person anyway. .

Atlantic Dawn

Nobody else is willing to investigate it so it's a step in the right direction.

galwaytt

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Nobody else is willing to investigate it so it's a step in the right direction.

Is not that, it's the fact is being focused on as a financial item. ...

TouchingVirus

galwaytt wrote: »

Is not that, it's the fact is being focused on as a financial item. ...

The allegations are that people had points quashed as favours or by their buddies. It's corruption and since the whistle-blowers have no faith in the internal processes the only way it can be tackled is through the PAC. I would rather they spend a bit of taxpayers money to find out what's going on with the points system and try reform it than keep it internal. It has been internal for years, and every dog on the street knows there's some truth to it despite the Garda Commissioner's desire to be above reproach.

Councils quash thousands of littering fines, get hauled in front of the PAC to answer for themselves. Of course we always knew littering fines were a revenue generation operation.

It's not great logic, is it?

the_syco

galwaytt wrote: »

ACCOUNTS committee

There are two ways to check the amount of fines;

• count the tickets
• count the fines

Since the tickets could just be written off as paid if the member doing so was corrupted, that leaves counting the fines.

Added to this, if you say it's a Garda issue, they'd be redirected to an internal enquiry. Mention unpaid taxes, and suddenly people sit up, take notice, and bay for the money blood.

timmy4u2

Whereas the PAC may not be the best forum it was the only forum available.
The whistle blowers tried to have this sorted internally but they were bullied and threatned with disciplinary action and singled out for the application of selective discipline.

In one case for refusing to state that he-the Garda-attended at a court while off duty and in the case of the Sergeant he was singled out for discipline when a seized computer went missing even though several others involved in the case were not considered for discipline.

Callinan stated that they were the only two Gardai of a force of 13000 to make the allegations.
No wonder the rest stayed quiet.

timmy4u2

GEMMA O'DOHERTY – 19 APRIL 2013THE garda Commissioner has admitted he had penalty points wiped out after incurring them on official force duties.

Does this say a lot?
The "on duty" part has also been dissected.

coolbeans

I really have only limited confidence in the cops myself. I've seen and hard too many cases of petty and serious corruption to not tend to tar them all with the same brush. I'm truly sorry to say. They're not the police force of an advanced democracy imo.

timmy4u2

coolbeans wrote: »

I really have only limited confidence in the cops myself. I've seen and hard too many cases of petty and serious corruption to not tend to tar them all with the same brush. I'm truly sorry to say. They're not the police force of an advanced democracy imo.

Do we have an advanced democracy in Ireland?
Heretofore promotions in An Garda Siochana were political appointments from Superintendent upwards, now, for some time, all Garda Promotions have to be approved by the minister sonit v is true to say thatvall Garda promotions are not political appointments.

Also remember that no Garda below the rank of Inspector has the power to cancel a speeding ticket.
Also remember that the Commissioner had a speeding ticket cancelled concerning his driving of his private car.

brooke 2

timmy4u2 wrote: »

Does this say a lot?
The "on duty" part has also been dissected.

Gemma O'Doherty, who reported that the Commissioner had points removed, was fired from the Independent. There has been
no mention of this in mainstream media. Stephen Rea, editor of the Indo, has also had points removed!

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

timmy4u2

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

These facts have been in the public domain for quite some time now as has the speeding incident of former Minister for Justice John O'Donoghue and the subsequent similar fall out, Garda wise, from that.
Note that Stephen Rea comes from Kerry where his family ran a pub quite near to the ring of Kerry.

toyotaavensis

Only people doing wrong have to worry about the PAC enquiry. The reason gardai are trying to stop the PAC is because they have been cancelling points for their buddies for some time. I have to wonder if the OP is a gard?

brooke 2

Fred Swanson wrote: »

When was this list of people who had points removed revealed?

The full list has not been revealed. A few names were mentioned by Clare Daly in the Dáil when the points controversy
originally erupted.

brooke 2

timmy4u2 wrote: »

These facts have been in the public domain for quite some time now as has the speeding incident of former Minister for Justice John O'Donoghue and the subsequent similar fall out, Garda wise, from that.
Note that Stephen Rea comes from Kerry where his family ran a pub quite near to the ring of Kerry.

Paul Williams, crime reporter, has also had points removed!

timmy4u2

What a pompous attitude the Garda Commissioner took at the PAC.
He basically stated that the PAC could not adjudicate on the issues but rather he was better qualified to adjudicate while there was the dongle of a squashed speeding issue attached to his USB Port.
From his attitude, when he referred to the whistleblowers as subordinates who usurped him, in essence calling them Plebs and that they had no rights to make complaints to tha Dail says a lot as to what he intends to do with any whistleblowers within An Garda Siochana.

Not as if this attitude was not know already, only now it has been said in public by the Commissioner.

Callinan seems to forget that Michael McDowell when he was Minister for Justice stated that every Garda had a right to bring any issues to a member of the Dail; not that that was necessary but it cleared up any doubts on that issue.

Unbelievably he also went on to say that going before the PAC would have an adverse effect on discipline within the force.
Of course what he was saying is that An Garda Siochana may loose their ability to set up the so called Kangaroo Courts when they needed to weed out their problems.....and if you go by what he has stated about whistleblowers they are a big big cheeky v problem for him.
Time now for his departure

brooke 2

timmy4u2 wrote: »

These facts have been in the public domain for quite some time now as has the speeding incident of former Minister for Justice John O'Donoghue and the subsequent similar fall out, Garda wise, from that.
Note that Stephen Rea comes from Kerry where his family ran a pub quite near to the ring of Kerry.

Paul Williams, crime reporter, has also had points removed!

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

toyotaavensis

The timing of the comments the commissioner made today about the killers of Det. Garda Donoghue is questionable at best. I was not impressed when I heard them.

The Maverick

toyotaavensis wrote: »

The timing of the comments the commissioner made today about the killers of Det. Garda Donoghue is questionable at best. I was not impressed when I heard them.

It was the anniversary of his killing, surely one of the most logical times to make a renewed appeal for information.

toyotaavensis

It wasnt an appeal for information he said that the killers should be expecting a knock on the door which the cynic in me thinks might have been a bid to move attention away from the PAC.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

toyotaavensis

He is considering going to the high court to stop gardai or ex gardai from appearing before the PAC.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

brooke 2

Fred Swanson wrote: »

Scandalous!

timmy4u2

The Maverick wrote: »

It was the anniversary of his killing, surely one of the most logical times to make a renewed appeal for information.

Yes it was a logical time for such a statement but it was also an opportune time to deflect media attention from his publicly declared views on what he thinks of those within An Garda Siochana who try to expose corruption and cronyism.

His statements on the killing, along with his statements on the whistleblowers also indicate his preference to bully in that he states that the suspects should await a knock on the door and to keep looking over their shoulders.
He made these bullying threats about individuals where he has admitted that they do not have enough evidence to charge them and have them extradited.

We all want to see the killers brought to justice but we do not want to see suspects bullied, and at this stage they are only supects, nor do we want to see their convictions-if it ever comes to that- jeopardised because the Commissioner has declared that the Force is going to bully them.
Bad enough that he has declared and set out to bully members of his own force

The Maverick

timmy4u2 wrote: »

Yes it was a logical time for such a statement but it was also an opportune time to deflect media attention from his publicly declared views on what he thinks of those within An Garda Siochana who try to expose corruption and cronyism.

His statements on the killing, along with his statements on the whistleblowers also indicate his preference to bully in that he states that the suspects should await a knock on the door and to keep looking over their shoulders.
He made these bullying threats about individuals where he has admitted that they do not have enough evidence to charge them and have them extradited.

We all want to see the killers brought to justice but we do not want to see suspects bullied, and at this stage they are only supects, nor do we want to see their convictions-if it ever comes to that- jeopardised because the Commissioner has declared that the Force is going to bully them.
Bad enough that he has declared and set out to bully members of his own force

I am no supporter of Commissioner Callinan, I think he is nothing but a complete and utter government yes man and his stance on the whistleblowers leaves a lot to be desired. Ideally, he would resign or be sacked and some one actually decent would replace him.

However, I really do not agree with what you are trying to say. The timing of the appeal for new information has nothing to do with trying to deflect attention from the penalty points issue, it would have have been decided weeks in advance. I believe it's fairly standard to appeal for information on unsolved killings on the anniversary of their occurrence. It would have been much more bizarre if the commissioner had not bothered to issue a new appeal because of the fallout from his appearance at the PAC.

Your use of the word "bullying" appears to imply that the suspects in this case are poor, defenseless young men and women who are deserving of our sympathy because the guards are actually going to be so audacious as to try and arrest them. These people (and I use the term people loosely) are nothing but vermin who would shoot you or me as quick as they would look at us. Everyone knows they killed the garda and it's only through fear, cowardice and a hatred of the law on the parts of others that they have managed to get away for so long.

Kristopherus

Whats ominous about all this is the fact that the whistleblowers went to the Shinners with their box of tricks. And it was quite noticeable that Mary Lou was the most obnoxious towards the Commissioner. Any chance those same Shinners would inform the Commissioner who those bastards are that murdered Garda Donohoe? I'm pretty sure they won't. Its too easy to sit on the fence and shout:mad:

Anan1

Kristopherus wrote: »

Whats ominous about all this is the fact that the whistleblowers went to the Shinners with their box of tricks. And it was quite noticeable that Mary Lou was the most obnoxious towards the Commissioner. Any chance those same Shinners would inform the Commissioner who those bastards are that murdered Garda Donohoe? I'm pretty sure they won't. Its too easy to sit on the fence and shout:mad:

The commissioner says he already knows who they are. What do you honestly expect Sinn Féin to do about it? Not that it has anything to do with the penalty points issue in any case.

_Kaiser_

Anan1 wrote: »

The commissioner says he already knows who they are. What do you honestly expect Sinn Féin to do about it? Not that it has anything to do with the penalty points issue in any case.

+1.. this nonsense of using the SF/IRA history to dismiss anything they say really annoys me.
I'm no fan of any party to be honest but let's not forget that NONE of the current parties have a spotless history (the example I always use is the "great" CJH and his arms trial followed swiftly by his rise to leader of the country)

Anyway, on topic - Callinan's statements last week plus the treatment of the 2 gardai in question should be enough to force his resignation and a full independent review of the force as a whole instigated.
But this is Ireland, and Shatter won't see his good mate fired and seeing as corruption, incompetence and the old boys culture is so endemic in our system you'd have to ask if there even IS such a thing as an "Independent" body anymore.

I don't expect any real consequences to come from this (except to the 2 guys involved of course) just as I don't expect anything from the banking inquiry (they're already busy making sure that no-one could be appointed that might upset the applecart)

No Pants

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

+1.. this nonsense of using the SF/IRA history to dismiss anything they say really annoys me.
I'm no fan of any party to be honest but let's not forget that NONE of the current parties have a spotless history (the example I always use is the "great" CJH and his arms trial followed swiftly by his rise to leader of the country)

I agree, but as much as I hate the political parties, all of them, I reserve a special contempt for SF. They have blood on their hands and not just specks either, great feckin' 50 gallon drums of it. They cannot claim to have any kind of concern for law and order in this country.

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

Anyway, on topic - Callinan's statements last week plus the treatment of the 2 gardai in question should be enough to force his resignation and a full independent review of the force as a whole instigated.

Agreed, his attitude was shocking. Gene Kerrigan had a good piece on it yesterday in the Sindo. However, as you say, who is really independent?

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

I don't expect any real consequences to come from this (except to the 2 guys involved of course) just as I don't expect anything from the banking inquiry (they're already busy making sure that no-one could be appointed that might upset the applecart)

Yes, that'll be an expensive farce if it ever actually happens.

timmy4u2

The Maverick wrote: »

I am no supporter of Commissioner Callinan, I think he is nothing but a complete and utter government yes man and his stance on the whistleblowers leaves a lot to be desired. Ideally, he would resign or be sacked and some one actually decent would replace him.

However, I really do not agree with what you are trying to say. The timing of the appeal for new information has nothing to do with trying to deflect attention from the penalty points issue, it would have have been decided weeks in advance. I believe it's fairly standard to appeal for information on unsolved killings on the anniversary of their occurrence. It would have been much more bizarre if the commissioner had not bothered to issue a new appeal because of the fallout from his appearance at the PAC.

Your use of the word "bullying" appears to imply that the suspects in this case are poor, defenseless young men and women who are deserving of our sympathy because the guards are actually going to be so audacious as to try and arrest them. These people (and I use the term people loosely) are nothing but vermin who would shoot you or me as quick as they would look at us. Everyone knows they killed the garda and it's only through fear, cowardice and a hatred of the law on the parts of others that they have managed to get away for so long.

I never said it was not decided in advance, I said it was an opportune time to deflect media attention and that opportunity was taken advantage of.

Hold on a minute now on the bullying.
Anybody can be bullied. The do not have to be poor or rich.

And it would be audacious to arrest them when they have openly declared that there is not enough evidence. You cannot go around arresting anybody without sufficient evidence.
Everybody do not know they did the killing including the Gardai. We can all have views but we cannot convict on assumptions based on what we have read in the papers.

How would you feel if you were followed by Gardai everyplace you went and how would you feel if the Gardai besetted your home and knocked repeatedly on your door when they did not have evidence that you committed a crime.

There are clearly laid down guidelines for the investigation of crime and nowhere does it state that you can break the law in you investigations.

And you certainly cannot openly declare on the media for the information of the suspects that you know there is not enough evidence to arrest them so youcare going to knock on their doors and you are going to follow them around and when they look over their shoulder their will be a Garda or Gardai following them to intimidate them.

That was an audacious statement for a Garda Commissioner to make as it breaches their constitutional rights.
Obviously, from evidence of the whistleblowers that system was employed on them in an attempt to silence them.

The Maverick

timmy4u2 wrote: »

I never said it was not decided in advance, I said it was an opportune time to deflect media attention and that opportunity was taken advantage of.

Hold on a minute now on the bullying.
Anybody can be bullied. The do not have to be poor or rich.

And it would be audacious to arrest them when they have openly declared that there is not enough evidence. You cannot go around arresting anybody without sufficient evidence.
Everybody do not know they did the killing including the Gardai. We can all have views but we cannot convict on assumptions based on what we have read in the papers.

How would you feel if you were followed by Gardai everyplace you went and how would you feel if the Gardai besetted your home and knocked repeatedly on your door when they did not have evidence that you committed a crime.

There are clearly laid down guidelines for the investigation of crime and nowhere does it state that you can break the law in you investigations.

And you certainly cannot openly declare on the media for the information of the suspects that you know there is not enough evidence to arrest them so youcare going to knock on their doors and you are going to follow them around and when they look over their shoulder their will be a Garda or Gardai following them to intimidate them.

That was an audacious statement for a Garda Commissioner to make as it breaches their constitutional rights.
Obviously, from evidence of the whistleblowers that system was employed on them in an attempt to silence them.

It was the opportune time to issue an appeal as it was the anniversary of the killing, regardless of what had happened the day previously. What should the guards have done? Ignored the anniversary and said nothing because the commissioner made a fool of himself? I'm sure the guard's family would have appreciated that.

It's the DPP's job to decide if there is enough evidence to prosecute someone, not the guards. The guards can arrest someone if they have a reasonable believe the person was involved or is withholding information, it is not the same burden of proof that is required to prosecute. No laws would be broken by arresting someone, I don't know where you got that from.

You certainly can declare in the media that you have suspects in mind and intend to arrest them. I would say it is one of the most common things said by any police force across the globe in major inveatigations.

Anan1

No Pants wrote: »

I agree, but as much as I hate the political parties, all of them, I reserve a special contempt for SF. They have blood on their hands and not just specks either, great feckin' 50 gallon drums of it.

Who doesn't, really? The war in the north was a very dirty three way affair, and all three sides killed and maimed civilians. But SF subsequently signed up to the peace process and renounced violence - their war is over.

No Pants wrote: »

They cannot claim to have any kind of concern for law and order in this country.

That's like saying that we shouldn't trust the PSNI because of the past transgressions of the RUC. Times change, and the murder of Adrian Donohoe is a criminal matter - nothing to do with SF.

Muahahaha

I heard a piece on the radio over the weekend about the whistleblower in the Leas Cross nursing home who revealed how patients were being regularly abused by staff.
He ended up being fired from his job and took a case to the Employment Appeals Tribunal where he somehow lost and was left with a legal bill of €75,000 to pay.

If that's how the State treats whistleblowers who seek to improve the services the public receive by exposing wrongdoing then I really do despair for the future of this country. Our 'institutions' are riddled to the core with gombeen scratch my back management who have instilled a culture of not rocking the boat, those that do will face dire consequences for their actions.

No Pants

Anan1 wrote: »

Who doesn't, really? The war in the north was a very dirty three way affair, and all three sides killed and maimed civilians. But SF subsequently signed up to the peace process and renounced violence - their war is over.
That's like saying that we shouldn't trust the PSNI because of the past transgressions of the RUC. Times change, and the murder of Adrian Donohoe is a criminal matter - nothing to do with SF.

No it's not. I know you like to play devil's advocate Anan, but are you seriously going to equate SF/IRA with the RUC? One was a police force and the other a terrorist organisation. In any case, the other "sides" from the North are not relevant right now as they are unlikely to be questioning the Garda Commissioner. I never mentioned Adrian Donohoe, nor do I need to. There are plenty of murders that they were involved with and I wasn't born on Good Friday in 1998. My memory goes back further than that and while SF are free to question anyone they like, preferably without the use of hammers or electric drills, I'm also free to call them a bunch of murdering hypocrites.

Apologies for derailing this thread. It was not my intention.

galwaytt

timmy4u2 wrote: »

Yes it was a logical time for such a statement but it was also an opportune time to deflect media attention from his publicly declared views on what he thinks of those within An Garda Siochana who try to expose corruption and cronyism.

His statements on the killing, along with his statements on the whistleblowers also indicate his preference to bully in that he states that the suspects should await a knock on the door and to keep looking over their shoulders.
He made these bullying threats about individuals where he has admitted that they do not have enough evidence to charge them and have them extradited.

We all want to see the killers brought to justice but we do not want to see suspects bullied, and at this stage they are only supects, nor do we want to see their convictions-if it ever comes to that- jeopardised because the Commissioner has declared that the Force is going to bully them.
Bad enough that he has declared and set out to bully members of his own force

I watched the PAC thing live - the issue of catching people for Garda Donohoe was actually brought up by one of the questioning TD's - which was, I thought, a most odd thing to do at a PAC sitting on something completely unconnected.

Once that horse was out of the box though, and the anniversary here, it was not unreasonable to have AGS make an appeal for information on the crime.

Anan1

No Pants wrote: »

No it's not. I know you like to play devil's advocate Anan

No, you don't. You say that in an attempt to undermine what I'm saying without actually addressing it. I say what I think, and I explain why. Instead of impugning my motives, you might do the same yourself.

No Pants wrote: »

but are you seriously going to equate SF/IRA with the RUC? One was a police force and the other a terrorist organisation. In any case, the other "sides" from the North are not relevant right now as they are unlikely to be questioning the Garda Commissioner. I never mentioned Adrian Donohoe, nor do I need to. There are plenty of murders that they were involved with and I wasn't born on Good Friday in 1998. My memory goes back further than that and while SF are free to question anyone they like, preferably without the use of hammers or electric drills, I'm also free to call them a bunch of murdering hypocrites.

Apologies for derailing this thread. It was not my intention.

Like I said, all sides murdered civilians and all sides tortured people. And yes, that does include the police and the army. If you want to have a special distaste for SF then be my guest, but don't try and kid yourself they were somehow worse than the loyalist paramilitaries or the British - they were all killing civilians. But yeah, we are going OT here...

timmy4u2

The Maverick wrote: »

It was the opportune time to issue an appeal as it was the anniversary of the killing, regardless of what had happened the day previously. What should the guards have done? Ignored the anniversary and said nothing because the commissioner made a fool of himself? I'm sure the guard's family would have appreciated that.

It's the DPP's job to decide if there is enough evidence to prosecute someone, not the guards. The guards can arrest someone if they have a reasonable believe the person was involved or is withholding information, it is not the same burden of proof that is required to prosecute. No laws would be broken by arresting someone, I don't know where you got that from.

You certainly can declare in the media that you have suspects in mind and intend to arrest them. I would say it is one of the most common things said by any police force across the globe in major inveatigations.

It is not that simple to make an arrest in situations such as this.
In the people v Quilligan

...affecting personal rights Parliament intended the power to be exercised only in a manner that would be in conformity with the Constitution and within the limitations of the power as they are to be gathered from the statutory scheme or design. This means, amongst other things, not only that the power must be exercised in good faith, but that the opinion or other subjective conclusion set as a pre-condition for the valid exercise of the power must be reached by a route that does not make the exercise unlawful - such as by misinterpreting the law, or by misapplying it through taking into consideration irrelevant matters of fact, or through ignoring relevant matters. Otherwise, the exercise as a power will be held to be invalid for being ultra vires".

And as regards fingering suspects for whom there is insufficient evidence I would not go on what me be heard or seen on television. Reality has to prevail and indeed many have successfully sued for damages where they were so publicly fingered.

But the commissioner was not fingering them he was issuing threats, in otherwords adopting bullyboy tactics.
Its well known that the DPP decides the charges in such cases, the Gardai usually decide who to lawfully arrest

cadaliac

Corruption is still live and well in the halls of government. We all know it.
What I find strange is the item that the whistle blowers picked to expose. Points being squashed. Why not pick promotions or demotions in the force, for instance?? As the OP said - its a waste of tax payers money (imo).

I agree that the corruption has to stop but in reality who really cares if some speeding points or points for other offences were wiped off the slate. I know I would be delighted if someone could do that for me. {if i had points of course}

Yes, you could argue that it (me getting points wiped) is adding to the corruption in the country as a whole but there are far more serious issues of corruption in this country - just look at the Irish Water fiasco.

My point being - I just think its a little trivial when there are some far more serious issues to be dealing with at the moment - namely prosecuting the killers of that poor guard.

brooke 2

cadaliac wrote: »

Corruption is still live and well in the halls of government. We all know it.
What I find strange is the item that the whistle blowers picked to expose. Points being squashed. Why not pick promotions or demotions in the force, for instance?? As the OP said - its a waste of tax payers money (imo).

I agree that the corruption has to stop but in reality who really cares if some speeding points or points for other offences were wiped off the slate. I know I would be delighted if someone could do that for me. {if i had points of course}

Yes, you could argue that it (me getting points wiped) is adding to the corruption in the country as a whole but there are far more serious issues of corruption in this country - just look at the Irish Water fiasco.

My point being - I just think its a little trivial when there are some far more serious issues to be dealing with at the moment - namely prosecuting the killers of that poor guard.

It seems that some of those who had penalty points removed repeatedly were subsequently involved in fatal crashes.

If any of your family had been the victims of such reckless drivers
you would not be of the opinion that the issue of points removal
was 'a little trivial'.

Anan1

cadaliac wrote: »

My point being - I just think its a little trivial when there are some far more serious issues to be dealing with at the moment - namely prosecuting the killers of that poor guard.

The weakness of that argument, though, is that it ends up with nothing getting done about anything. The penalty points issue mightn't be the most important or even the most urgent, but it still deserves to be addressed and every success will make the next instance of corruption that bit easier to deal with.

cadaliac

brooke 2 wrote: »

It seems that some of those who had penalty points removed repeatedly were subsequently involved in fatal crashes.

If any of your family had been the victims of such reckless drivers
you would not be of the opinion that the issue of points removal
was 'a little trivial'.

Fatal crashes et al is a different kettle of fish and points or no points isn't going to make a difference to the fatality - unfortunately.
I do agree with you however in the fact that points should not have been wiped for serious crashes, fatalities etc. Of course they shouldn't. Or, indeed for repeat offenders.

jackofalltrades

cadaliac wrote: »

I agree that the corruption has to stop but in reality who really cares if some speeding points or points for other offences were wiped off the slate. I know I would be delighted if someone could do that for me. {if i had points of course}

As bad as it is getting points on your licence, seeing other people get them as well, and being let away with it is rubbing salt in your wounds.

Yes, you could argue that it (me getting points wiped) is adding to the corruption in the country as a whole but there are far more serious issues of corruption in this country - just look at the Irish Water fiasco.

Small scale corruption, and people's acceptance of it, is what creates the perfect environment for large scale corruption to exist.

Fatal crashes et al is a different kettle of fish and points or no points isn't going to make a difference to the fatality - unfortunately.

Having penalty points wiped, sometimes for numerous incidents is going to create an "I'm above the law" attitude in a driver. Which can only be to the determinant of road safety.

brooke 2

cadaliac wrote: »

Fatal crashes et al is a different kettle of fish and points or no points isn't going to make a difference to the fatality - unfortunately.
I do agree with you however in the fact that points should not have been wiped for serious crashes, fatalities etc. Of course they shouldn't. Or, indeed for repeat offenders.

According to the Indo yesterday points were cancelled for some very serious offences. I would be concerned that some
of those drivers got off repeatedly. That is definitely not a trivial issue.

cadaliac

brooke 2 wrote: »

According to the Indo yesterday points were cancelled for some very serious offences. I would be concerned that some
of those drivers got off repeatedly. That is definitely not a trivial issue.

Agreed

The Maverick

timmy4u2 wrote: »

It is not that simple to make an arrest in situations such as this.
In the people v Quilligan

And as regards fingering suspects for whom there is insufficient evidence I would not go on what me be heard or seen on television. Reality has to prevail and indeed many have successfully sued for damages where they were so publicly fingered.

But the commissioner was not fingering them he was issuing threats, in otherwords adopting bullyboy tactics.
Its well known that the DPP decides the charges in such cases, the Gardai usually decide who to lawfully arrest

Long legal quote there but it doesn't back up your argument. People can be arrested if there is a reasonable suspicion they were involved in a crime. Evidence could exist that may link them to the crime but it may not be deemed strong enough to warrant prosecution. I imagine the hope would be that one of the people in custody would confess to their and the others involvement in the crime.

I fail to see how any reasonable person would believe the the commissioner stating that the gardaí know who carried out the crime and they should expect to be arrested soon is a threat. After all, isn't that generally what police forces do? Arrest the perpetrators of any criminal action, be it minor or in the case very serious.

However, the motors forum is not the right place at all for this argument. Hopefully now that the Ombudsman is involved, there will be a more impartial investigation and the whistleblowers will get to air their story properly.

Bigus

cadaliac wrote: »

Fatal crashes et al is a different kettle of fish and points or no points isn't going to make a difference to the fatality - unfortunately.
I do agree with you however in the fact that points should not have been wiped for serious crashes, fatalities etc. Of course they shouldn't. Or, indeed for repeat offenders.

points or no points isn't going to make a difference to the fatality


Yes it would if the driver was banned prior to the fatal incident which is the whole point.


Repeatedly dangerous drivers were let off and subsequently went out and killed or got killed.

Enough points would have had them entirely off the road or would have slowed them down enough to avoid more points and possible license loss

I didn't take this seriously til I heard about these numerous fatalities, directly linked to people still driving recklessly with no FEAR of sanction .

Big Tom Mainliner

Its absolutely ridiculous that such a big deal is being made about this...

I've had points quashed in the past. Rural Ireland has always operated with a bit of flexibility in-built in the system. People are hand-wringing and acting like its the crime of the century.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

timmy4u2

The Maverick wrote: »

Long legal quote there but it doesn't back up your argument. People can be arrested if there is a reasonable suspicion they were involved in a crime. Evidence could exist that may link them to the crime but it may not be deemed strong enough to warrant prosecution. I imagine the hope would be that one of the people in custody would confess to their and the others involvement in the crime.

I fail to see how any reasonable person would believe the the commissioner stating that the gardaí know who carried out the crime and they should expect to be arrested soon is a threat. After all, isn't that generally what police forces do? Arrest the perpetrators of any criminal action, be it minor or in the case very serious.

However, the motors forum is not the right place at all for this argument. Hopefully now that the Ombudsman is involved, there will be a more impartial investigation and the whistleblowers will get to air their story properly.

The law is the law. Misinterpretation of the law whether wilful or otherwise is illegal and everything associated with that is tainted with illegality thus making it ultra vires or beyond ones legal power. Otherwise everybody could go around arresting everybody else on a whim or suspicion.