corporation tax

darkpagandeath

http://www.rte.ie/news/business/2014/0123/499591-taoiseach-ireland/

How long do you think the government can hold off Europe on this. How long until we see a scaling back on Multinationals here if the Tax avoidance is clamped out. Maybe technicalities that Ireland will not change the way corporation tax dealt with here but if the loop is closed what then...

mike65

Under existing arrangements, such as the Double Irish, corporations can lower tax liabilities using payments between related entities in a corporate structure.

This is done so that the burden falls on the firm resident in the lower tax country - such as zero tax jurisdictions in the Carribean - rather than in the higher tax country.

Ireland does not impose taxes on revenue relating to subsidiaries of Irish companies that are located elsewhere.

Facebook, Apple and Microsoft are thought to avail of this tax arrangement, which is regarded as separate to Ireland's general corporate tax rate of 12.5%.

apple(s) and oranges

The Corpo rate of 12.5% is in no danger.

darkpagandeath

mike65 wrote: »

apple(s) and oranges

The Corpo rate of 12.5% is in no danger.

We all know that ... But their not paying that yet. What happens when they have too.

ancapailldorcha

Low corporation tax is good. It keeps big companies here and attracts more of them leading to new jobs.

darkpagandeath

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Low corporation tax is good. It keeps big companies here and attracts more of them leading to new jobs.

It is already low there using loop holes is the point.

Phill Ewinn

darkpagandeath wrote: »

We all know that ... But their not paying that yet. What happens when they have to.

Pay your taxes or fcuk off corpos. We're full to the brim with sh1tehawks vulturing around this country.

rwg

darkpagandeath wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/business/2014/0123/499591-taoiseach-ireland/

How long do you think the government can hold off Europe on this. How long until we see a scaling back on Multinationals here if the Tax avoidance is clamped out. Maybe technicalities that Ireland will not change the way corporation tax dealt with here but if the loop is closed what then...

corporation tax will never be changed, if it does we are a third world my country my friend - even politicians appear to realize this, well the current ones anyways

ancapailldorcha

Phill Ewinn wrote: »

Pay your taxes or fcuk off corpos. We're full to the brim with sh1tehawks vulturing around this country.

I'm not saying it's ideal but without foreign investment, Ireland would be a third world country. A small percentage of something is better than 100% of nothing.

dxhound2005

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I'm not saying it's ideal but without foreign investment, Ireland would be a third world country. A small percentage of something is better than 100% of nothing.

Are we in the First World or the Second World now? Does anyone know where the Second World is?

darkpagandeath

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Are we in the First World or the Second World now? Does anyone know where the Second World is?

Behind the sofa with the tax returns ?

banquo

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I'm not saying it's ideal but without foreign investment, Ireland would be a third world country. A small percentage of something is better than 100% of nothing.

This. Exactly this! Also, most of the profits that we end up taxing weren't even made in Ireland. It's deadly.

Also, before the wash of complaints: people aren't poor because Google etc don't pay more tax.

expectationlost

Sheryl Sandberg of Facebook becomes a billionaire bit.ly/1dYGXxv

if we raised the corporation tax, (or changed the tax avoidance schemes) what would happen to Sheryl Sandberg, we must protect the needy

ancapailldorcha

expectationlost wrote: »

... what would happen to Sheryl Sandberg, we must protect the needy

She'd leave, set up shop somewhere else which would lead to massive amounts of people losing their jobs and leaving the country meaning the taxpayer gets no return whatsoever for the fees they paid to put them through University.

Aidric

expectationlost wrote: »

Sheryl Sandberg of Facebook becomes a billionaire bit.ly/1dYGXxv

if we raised the corporation tax, (or changed the tax avoidance schemes) what would happen to Sheryl Sandberg, we must protect the needy

Kenny met with Sandberg today in Davos on this very matter and gave assurances that there will be no movement on Ireland's CT position.

He is right, it would erode our competitive edge. The tax policy of a country cannot be dictated by Europe in any case.

expectationlost

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

She'd leave, set up shop somewhere else which would lead to massive amounts of people losing their jobs and leaving the country meaning the taxpayer gets no return whatsoever for the fees they paid to put them through University.

or maybe they wouldn't leave, there here not here just for the tax right?

expectationlost

Aidric wrote: »

Kenny met with Sandberg today in Davos on this very matter and gave assurances that there will be no movement on Ireland's CT position.

He is right, it would erode our competitive edge. The tax policy of a country cannot be dictated by Europe in any case.

or deceny

darkpagandeath

expectationlost wrote: »

or mabe they wouldn't leave, there here for the people right?

Well that's what these companies say ... but they also say they work within current tax law in each jurisdiction. There is a difference with working within the law to the spirit of the law. Why do they protest so much when this is mentioned if they think their not doing anything wrong.

awec

expectationlost wrote: »

Sheryl Sandberg of Facebook becomes a billionaire bit.ly/1dYGXxv

if we raised the corporation tax, (or changed the tax avoidance schemes) what would happen to Sheryl Sandberg, we must protect the needy

What would happen to Sheryl Sandberg if we raised the tax rate? Absolutely nothing, it won't hit her in the pocket.

The losers would be employees of these facebook in Ireland and taxpayers.

expectationlost

awec wrote: »

What would happen to Sheryl Sandberg if we raised the tax rate? Absolutely nothing, it won't hit her in the pocket.

The losers would be employees of these facebook in Ireland and taxpayers.

or maybe it wouldn't

darkpagandeath

expectationlost wrote: »

or maybe it wouldn't

Would they not have to wind down operations, Pretty sure they cant just walk out saying errrr... yeah the company is not profitable anymore as it's their head offices here not just a part of the company.

awec

expectationlost wrote: »

or maybe it wouldn't

"Or maybe" is not really the phrase to use when you are tinkering with tax rates that will affect tens of thousands of jobs.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

awec wrote: »

"Or maybe" is not really the phrase to use when you are tinkering with tax rates that will affect tens of thousands of jobs.

or maybe it is

expectationlost

awec wrote: »

"Or maybe" is not really the phrase to use when you are tinkering with tax rates that will affect tens of thousands of jobs.

oh i thought these silicon valley types loved risk taking? or we are supposed to also

darkpagandeath

expectationlost wrote: »

oh i thought these silicon valley types loved risk taking? or we are supposed to also

Nah their all gone now only greedy people left... Look at that company that does not invent anything just repackages existing hardware (mostly out of date) paint it white and sell it to the masses. I do lol when they still claim to be the little guy and not a massive corporation. You know to make out there ethical.

Mr. Incognito

People are stupid.

Companies will always structure their affairs to reduce tax. Most multinationals are headquartered in low or nil tax jurisdictions like the caymans etc.

Every person working in multinationals is earning a wage, half of which is taxed on income tax and then they pump money into the economy for services, houses, etc.

The multinationals are they reason there is a housing bubble in Dublin and nowhere else due to google etc.

Raise corporation tax and then they leave and we go to crap.

So sick of people regurgitating rubbish they read from ill informed dopes in the sin do or other rags or idiot populist economic morons in sinn fein

darkpagandeath

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

People are stupid.

Companies will always structure their affairs to reduce tax. Most multinationals are headquartered in low or nil tax jurisdictions like the caymans etc.

Every person working in multinationals is earning a wage, half of which is taxed on income tax and then they pump money into the economy for services, houses, etc.

The multinationals are they reason there is a housing bubble in Dublin and nowhere else due to google etc.

Raise corporation tax and then they leave and we go to crap.

So sick of people regurgitating rubbish they read from ill informed dopes in the sin do or other rags or idiot populist economic morons in sinn fein

But no one said Raise was asking about Europe closing the loop holes

Frank Lee Midere

darkpagandeath wrote: »

But no one said Raise was asking about Europe closing the loop holes

If the loop holes are genuinely closed all over Europe then all that happens is a windfall for the Irish government.

darkpagandeath

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

If the loop holes are genuinely closed all over Europe then all that happens is a windfall for the Irish government.

Exactly no like their paying more tax just not avoiding huge amounts of it anymore. Their mantra is always we are doing nothing wrong.

Frank Lee Midere

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Exactly no like their paying more tax just not avoiding huge amounts of it anymore. Their mantra is always we are doing nothing wrong.

Where would they go if the loopholes were genuinely closed all over Europe? They can't stay in Europe. I can't see software engineers emigrating en masse to Russia, China etc.

Phill Ewinn

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

People are stupid.

Companies will always structure their affairs to reduce tax. Most multinationals are headquartered in low or nil tax jurisdictions like the caymans etc.

Every person working in multinationals is earning a wage, half of which is taxed on income tax and then they pump money into the economy for services, houses, etc.

The multinationals are they reason there is a housing bubble in Dublin and nowhere else due to google etc.

Raise corporation tax and then they leave and we go to crap.

So sick of people regurgitating rubbish they read from ill informed dopes in the sin do or other rags or idiot populist economic morons in sinn fein

Most of the people working in those super-duper Dublin jobs are foreigners.

The super-duper companies they work for are taking the fvckin' Mickey out of you. You might tolerate that kind of behavior but I don't. They should pay their way or go away.

Place is already fvcked

Frank Lee Midere

Phill Ewinn wrote: »

Most of the people working in those super-duper Dublin jobs are foreigners.

The super-duper companies they work for are taking the fvckin' Mickey out of you. You might tolerate that kind of behavior but I don't. They should pay their way or go away.

Place is already fvcked

If they go away you can probably kiss goodbye to your job. Whatever that is.

darkpagandeath

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

Where would they go if the loopholes were genuinely closed all over Europe? They can't stay in Europe. I can't see software engineers emigrating en masse to Russia, China etc.

That's a very good point I think it's more the veiled threats and double bluffs. I mean these companies have had it really good the way tax works atm is like the wild west since the take off of the internet. As loop holes are closed and normalisation occurs they will just have to pay their due's. You cant claim your ethical if you keep moving you HQ to the latest tax haven.

L'Enfer du Nord

The corporation tax debate provides a simple narrative (which is why politician love it):
Basically it boils down to “Don’t touch our 12.5% corporation tax rate, we’d be f**ked without it.” It’s easy for even the most ill-informed politician to articulate this. Every time Enda Kenny or anyone else comes back from a summit and our corporation tax is unchanged he declares a victory.


If our economy really is dependent on across the board low corporation tax attracting multi-nationals we should be working on moving away from that position. We can only act as a tax haven for multi-nationals as long as other jurisdictions tolerate it. So if our economy really does depend on multinationals routing profits through Ireland to avail of low corporation tax rates we don’t have much control over our economic future.


As an aside, another reason politicians love multinationals is the fanfare around job announcements, you generally don’t get that with small and medium sized Irish companies creating jobs so most of the IDA efforts seem to be directed towards FDI and attracting multinationals.

Phill Ewinn

Seems to me our economy relys on winks, nods and corruption.

Pay your tax or fvck off

Days 298

Phill Ewinn wrote: »

Seems to me our economy relys on winks, nods and corruption.

Pay your tax or fvck off

Pub talk at its best.

Even if they did the left would give out when the government couldnt replace the tens of thousands of jobs to replace them with no revenue and huge social welfare bills. Further tax on workers to keep the country working completely disincentives getting into the work and job creation (business creation), more moaning. Of course cue SF with a magic wealth tax on the now non resident rich entities and a quick injection of the cash from the pension reserve which is quicky spent on cheaper imports or saved away under the mattress. Country f*cked and everyone penniless.... of course except those who can afford it which is never the people the person saying it represents.

darkpagandeath

Days 298 wrote: »

Pub talk at its best.

Even if they did the left would give out when the government couldnt replace the tens of thousands of jobs to replace them with no revenue and huge social welfare bills. Further tax on workers to keep the country working completely disincentives getting into the work and job creation (business creation), more moaning. Of course cue SF with a magic wealth tax on the now non resident rich entities and a quick injection of the cash from the pension reserve which is quicky spent on cheaper imports or saved away under the mattress. Country f*cked and everyone penniless.... of course except those who can afford it which is never the people the person saying it represents.

Again I don't think anyone has said they need to pay more tax just the Rate they should without avoidance. Are some not effectively paying less than 3%

Days 298

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Again I don't think anyone has said they need to pay more tax just the Rate they should without avoidance. Are some not effectively paying less than 3%

No countries on paper rate is their effective rate. Countries compete for the jobs. We are punching above our weight and thus Europe moans. They want some of our jobs.
http://www.irishexaminer.com/business/france-has-lower-effective-tax-rate-than-ireland-study-227320.html

ahnowbrowncow

Phill Ewinn wrote: »

Most of the people working in those super-duper Dublin jobs are foreigners.

I know, sure look at this

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

"tax fizzy drinks to fight obesity"


"what, dont be silly. taxing corporations highly wont cost us jobs"

darkpagandeath

Days 298 wrote: »

No countries on paper rate is their effective rate. Countries compete for the jobs. We are punching above our weight and thus Europe moans. They want some of our jobs.
http://www.irishexaminer.com/business/france-has-lower-effective-tax-rate-than-ireland-study-227320.html

You know thats not true if it was there would be no need for the Double Irish....

Days 298

darkpagandeath wrote: »

You know thats not true if it was there would be no need for the Double Irish....

What? I just linked you to something which shows that countries that begrudge our low rate have lower effective rates than on paper.

Mr. Incognito

Phill Ewinn wrote: »

Most of the people working in those super-duper Dublin jobs are foreigners.

The super-duper companies they work for are taking the fvckin' Mickey out of you. You might tolerate that kind of behavior but I don't. They should pay their way or go away.

Place is already fvcked

Lovely. I think you'll find that most of them are Irish.

There are foreigners there as most of these companies are foreign but the Irish aren't great at building multi-nationals with the exception of large agri companies.

They do pay their way. They are even building infrastructure that the State is too inept/ incompetent to afford / put in place such as power generation infrastructure, installing their own communications networks etc.

Ireland was a backhole until these companies came in the 90s and brought prosperity and education and JOBS.

But while you moan into your Diageo (English Company) produced Guiness and moan about the bleedin foreigners you have any other magic ideas how to replace the 65-70% of the Economy if they left?

Phill Ewinn

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

Lovely. I think you'll find that most of them are Irish.

There are foreigners there as most of these companies are foreign but the Irish aren't great at building multi-nationals with the exception of large agri companies.

They do pay their way. They are even building infrastructure that the State is too inept/ incompetent to afford / put in place such as power generation infrastructure, installing their own communications networks etc.

Ireland was a backhole until these companies came in the 90s and brought prosperity and education and JOBS.

But while you moan into your Diageo (English Company) produced Guiness and moan about the bleedin foreigners you have any other magic ideas how to replace the 65-70% of the Economy if they left?

We should sit, beg and roll over! Great strategy there. People will respect us for that.


We got them here using some aul sales talk. Shure low croporation taks bosco. Dubble Oirish loike. No questions!

Now they're here:-

No it's time to put the boot in and make the profit from the sale.

Days 298

Phill Ewinn wrote: »

We should sit, beg and roll over! Great strategy there. People will respect us for that.


We got them here using some aul sales talk. Shure low croporation taks bosco. Dubble Oirish loike. No questions!

Now they're here:-

No it's time to put the boot in and make the profit from the sale.

Your joking right? Most are footloose. Dell comes to mind.

Phill Ewinn

Days 298 wrote: »

Your joking right? Most are footloose. Dell comes to mind.

Exactly. Milked the place for all it was worth - then fvcked off.

Days 298

Phill Ewinn wrote: »

Exactly. Milked the place for all it was worth - then fvcked off.

Did we make a loss from their entrance, existence in this country or when they left?

Phill Ewinn

Days 298 wrote: »

Did we make a loss from their entrance, existence in this country or when they left?

Not the point. The gubberment would tax your grannys farts if they could. CEOs rob money off sick children in this county for feck sake!

But don't tax Guugle! Whatever you do

ancapailldorcha

So, what do you suggest we do then. If we remove the competitive advantage that is our low corporation tax rate and these companies depart, how would you suggest the country gets by. I'm not saying it's perfect but it's what we have. As for that CEO you mentioned, everyone should know by now that charities that size are rotten to the core.

Phill Ewinn

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

So, what do you suggest we do then. If we remove the competitive advantage that is our low corporation tax rate and these companies depart, how would you suggest the country gets by. I'm not saying it's perfect but it's what we have. As for that CEO you mentioned, everyone should know by now that charities that size are rotten to the core.

Tax them. Australia says stay within the spirit of the law. We a need a leaf from them.

Having €40bn in a Swiss bank while your HQ host country is selling water to keep the lights on. Gimme a break.

Days 298

Phill Ewinn wrote: »

Tax them. Australia says stay within the spirit of the law. We a need a leaf from them.

Having €40bn in a Swiss bank while your HQ host country is selling water to keep the lights on. Gimme a break.

.........Name me a few countries without water charges and property taxes that are worth living in.

Phill Ewinn

Days 298 wrote: »

.........Name me a few countries without water charges and property taxes that are worth living in.

Ireland after the next general election