Bsc Emergency Medical Science commencing Sept 2015

D Trent

http://www.ucd.ie/medicine/ourresearch/researchcentres/centreforemergencymedicalscience/diplomainemergencymedicalscience/

NEW DEVELOPMENTS: Bachelor of Science in EMS.
UCD Centre for Emergency Medical Science are planning an Honours Degree - Bachelor of Science EMS (BSc EMS). This is scheduled to commence in Sept 2015 and the programme and syllabus are being finalised. Entry paths for school leavers, mature students and exisiting emergency services staff, and recognition of prior learing are also being determined at this stage. The syllabus and admission criteria will be posted on this website as soon as it is available. Please check back regularly.

So what are people's thoughts about this?
Anymore will HSE recruit only graduates from this course instead of public recruitment drives for Student Paramedics?
What effect will this have on the current ICO staff?

BoonDoc

I am saddened that Ireland has fallen to the University programme. What extra clinical skills are taught during the three year programme ? What skills will they have that they don't have now? Will PHECC Paramedics be up the international standard?

In the UK they moved away from the IHCD Paramedic and added a lot of university coursework to the IHCD without additional skills.

This is a racket. It is a way for the academic institutions for getting more money out of the paramedic educational system.

You can go through this programme and still not be able to cannulate, provide ALS skills, or have more than the EMT level of drugs.

How about using this money to teach these paramedics up to the standard that everyone else has. That way, if I have a heart attack in South Kerry I may have a fighting chance instead of an EMT level practitioner showing up without the ability to treat my arrhythmia?

At the moment they can only hold my hand on the 90 minute drive to Tralee.

I have already accepted that I will die in the back of an ambulance during a long commute. I would at least like to have competent and well trained paramedics with internationally recognised skills.

D Trent

BoonDoc wrote: »

I am saddened that Ireland has fallen to the University programme. What extra clinical skills are taught during the three year programme ? What skills will they have that they don't have now? Will PHECC Paramedics be up the international standard?

In the UK they moved away from the IHCD Paramedic and added a lot of university coursework to the IHCD without additional skills.

This is a racket. It is a way for the academic institutions for getting more money out of the paramedic educational system.

You can go through this programme and still not be able to cannulate, provide ALS skills, or have more than the EMT level of drugs.

How about using this money to teach these paramedics up to the standard that everyone else has. That way, if I have a heart attack in South Kerry I may have a fighting chance instead of an EMT level practitioner showing up without the ability to treat my arrhythmia?

At the moment they can only hold my hand on the 90 minute drive to Tralee.

I have already accepted that I will die in the back of an ambulance during a long commute. I would at least like to have competent and well trained paramedics with internationally recognised skills.

From what i've heard it will be a 4 year programme

Bang Bang

BoonDoc wrote: »

I have already accepted that I will die in the back of an ambulance during a long commute. I would at least like to have competent and well trained paramedics with internationally recognised skills.

There are plenty of competent well trained paramedics with ALS skills in Ireland that may well keep you alive for you on that long journey, it does happen.
There are over forty new Advanced Paramedics qualifying in Ireland each year, be positive;)

BoonDoc

Bang Bang wrote: »

There are plenty of competent well trained paramedics with ALS skills in Ireland that may well keep you alive for you on that long journey, it does happen.
There are over forty new Advanced Paramedics qualifying in Ireland each year, be positive;)

Yes, and two who work in all of Kerry...... I am not holding my breath......

Bang Bang

BoonDoc wrote: »

Yes, and two who work in all of Kerry...... I am not holding my breath......

At the last count I believe there are more than two advanced paramedics in the Kerry region so to tarnish the region with your anecdotes is in my opinion wrong.

I wouldn't go saying that I have accepted I will die in a hospital corridor based on the one or two not so competent doctors that I have met.

BoonDoc

Bang Bang wrote: »

At the last count I believe there are more than two advanced paramedics in the Kerry region so to tarnish the region with your anecdotes is in my opinion wrong.

I wouldn't go saying that I have accepted I will die in a hospital corridor based on the one or two not so competent doctors that I have met.

Fair enough mate, I meant two at one time. I would guess that there are in fact more than two but there is one in Tralee and one in Killarney.....if we are lucky.


You are correct. I would much rather have a PHECC Paramedic treat me than some of the doctors that I have met. Both the paramedic and the doctor have four years of university behind them. They must be good.....

palmtrees

Where does it say that this degree will result in the award of Paramedic level status? Sounds like an AP standard course in my opinion.

Edit: I agree that it's madness that a paramedic cannot cannulate

D Trent

palmtrees wrote: »

Where does it say that this degree will result in the award of Paramedic level status? Sounds like an AP standard course in my opinion.

Edit: I agree that it's madness that a paramedic cannot cannulate

Who are you asking? ie to whose post are you replying?

palmtrees

D Trent wrote: »

Who are you asking? ie to whose post are you replying?

boondoc

BoonDoc

Are you sure that they will be APs?

Why would someone go through 4 years of uni and only be a paramedic? Why not spend one more year and be a doctor?

Even in the UK there are still two year uni degrees for paramedic (APs). Why four years? What do they teach during those extra years that make them a better paramedic?

The UK went through this by moving from the IHCD to the Uni based paramedic. Graduates from both programmes have the same skills. In fact, Uni graduates are not getting jobs in the offshore industry because they suck at patient contact. Sure they can write essays on how they feel about ethics but can they actually deal with patients???? NO! Uni paramedics are not getting more patient contact time.... they are only getting more essays and paperwork.


Do you know what makes a good paramedic? Patient contact time.

palmtrees

BoonDoc wrote: »

Are you sure that they will be APs?

Why would someone go through 4 years of uni and only be a paramedic? Why not spend one more year and be a doctor?

Even in the UK there are still two year uni degrees for paramedic (APs). Why four years? What do they teach during those extra years that make them a better paramedic?

The UK went through this by moving from the IHCD to the Uni based paramedic. Graduates from both programmes have the same skills. In fact, Uni graduates are not getting jobs in the offshore industry because they suck at patient contact. Sure they can write essays on how they feel about ethics but can they actually deal with patients???? NO! Uni paramedics are not getting more patient contact time.... they are only getting more essays and paperwork.


Do you know what makes a good paramedic? Patient contact time.

I am. A phone call to UCD CEMS confirmed that it would be AP standard.

The equivalent AP course in the UK is 3 years, and they get far less holidays than we do in Ireland so it's roughly 3.5 years equivalent for us. Same with nurses, nurses do 3 years in the UK, they do 4 here. Same qualification at the end. Why don't nurses do another year and become a doctor? If they want to be a doctor they will try to become a doctor.

...did you just equate not being able to get a job in the offshore industry with not being able to deal with patients?

The biggest problem with this course is not the standard of training, that will only improve. The biggest problem, in my opinion, is 17/18 year olds being put into an AP course. There should be an interview process for this because I'm sure you will agree that a lot of 17/18 year olds would find it difficult to cope with the stress and horrific scenarios that go with this job.

pk10216

This is disappointing to say the least. I have been a member of OMAC for the last 2 years with a view to becoming a paramedic and this new UCD Bachelor of Science in EMS has quenched my dream. Returning to college is financially out of reach for me, by the looks of it the recruitment drive last year is the end of the in house training. Anyone else in the same boat?

sjb25

pk10216 wrote: »

This is disappointing to say the least. I have been a member of OMAC for the last 2 years with a view to becoming a paramedic and this new UCD Bachelor of Science in EMS has quenched my dream. Returning to college is financially out of reach for me, by the looks of it the recruitment drive last year is the end of the in house training. Anyone else in the same boat?

I would have been in the same boat as you I couldn't afford to go back to college but thankfully I made the panel from the last recruitment drive all I can say to you is what was said to me when I was worrying if I'd make it or not and that is it's goin to take either 2 or 3 years to qualify people from this course and all goin wel most of this most recent panel will b used by then so would be possible May be another recruitment now I stress that's an opinion of somebody only obviously anything could happin but keep the faith

antichrist

palmtrees wrote: »

I am. A phone call to UCD CEMS confirmed that it would be AP standard.

From talking with the prof and others involved in the course it is a Paramedic course, after working as a paramedic you go back and get your G.Dip to work at AP standard.

AP is a Level 9 on framework of qualifications, Bsc is an 8.

D Trent

pk10216 wrote: »

This is disappointing to say the least. I have been a member of OMAC for the last 2 years with a view to becoming a paramedic and this new UCD Bachelor of Science in EMS has quenched my dream. Returning to college is financially out of reach for me, by the looks of it the recruitment drive last year is the end of the in house training. Anyone else in the same boat?

I do empathise with people like you. I am a member of CD. I really think that HSE will only run internal student paramedic recruitment drives anymore, after using the panel that is already there now. So I wud advise you to try get EMT qualification thru OMAC. Then apply for nxt intake of Intermediate Care Operatives they will get priority

BoonDoc

antichrist wrote: »

From talking with the prof and others involved in the course it is a Paramedic course, after working as a paramedic you go back and get your G.Dip to work at AP standard.

AP is a Level 9 on framework of qualifications, Bsc is an 8.

So....4 years to be a paramedic. At the moment you can do that after six months of classroom followed by 1200 hours..... WTF do you learn in those extra three years?

BoonDoc

pk10216 wrote: »

This is disappointing to say the least. I have been a member of OMAC for the last 2 years with a view to becoming a paramedic and this new UCD Bachelor of Science in EMS has quenched my dream. Returning to college is financially out of reach for me, by the looks of it the recruitment drive last year is the end of the in house training. Anyone else in the same boat?

This.

This is why making paramedic training a uni based system is wrong. Paramedic should start out as a technical college training like the US. Then, once you are on the job, you can upgrade to the uni degree.

These greedy feckers at universities are taking away the chance for people to become paramedics who either cannot do uni or cannot afford uni.


Again I ask: What is being taught during those extra three years of uni that will make a PHECC Paramedic a better clinician? They will still only be PHECC Paramedics.

In 20 weeks you can become a US Paramedic with 60 drugs, intubation, cannulation, chest drains, ACLS protocols, foleys and surgical airways.
Why is Ireland going backwards in medical training????

antichrist

BoonDoc wrote: »

This.

This is why making paramedic training a uni based system is wrong. Paramedic should start out as a technical college training like the US. Then, once you are on the job, you can upgrade to the uni degree.

These greedy feckers at universities are taking away the chance for people to become paramedics who either cannot do uni or cannot afford uni.


Again I ask: What is being taught during those extra three years of uni that will make a PHECC Paramedic a better clinician? They will still only be PHECC Paramedics.

In 20 weeks you can become a US Paramedic with 60 drugs, intubation, cannulation, chest drains, ACLS protocols, foleys and surgical airways.
Why is Ireland going backwards in medical training????

Who said it's 4 years? Not UCD.......you're relying on a guy that mentioned something on the internet.....he could have said 8 years, it still doesn't make it true. I already know he is wrong about post course qualifications so he's probably wrong about this too.

As far as I know the course will be structured like nursing and will be 2-3 years Long.
Skills have nothing to do with college duration, nursing is 4 years but at the end of it what procedures can you perform or what medication can you administer based on your own assessment? plus from what I remember about when I was in college, the days were short and well spaced out.

To be honest you sound quite negative and bitter regarding qualifications in Ireland, Just leads me to assume (be it right or wrong) that you have had issue with your own qualifications here and have been left with a bad taste in your mouth.

19hz

I wouldn't rule out the HSE ever recruiting directly again.

The UK hire mostly from uni students but some trusts still hire student paramedics.

I imagine there won't be enough college paramedics in Ireland for a good few years, if the degree is decent enough they'll be gone abroad.

D Trent

antichrist wrote: »

Who said it's 4 years? Not UCD.......you're relying on a guy that mentioned something on the internet.....he could have said 8 years, it still doesn't make it true. I already know he is wrong about post course qualifications so he's probably wrong about this too.

Actually you are wrong. if you bothered emailing UCD like I did two weeks ago, you would have been told this is a 4 year course. it's not a rumour, thats directly from the people in charge of finalising the details doe the course. cemshelp@ucd.ie

antichrist

D Trent wrote: »

Actually you are wrong. if you bothered emailing UCD like I did two weeks ago, you would have been told this is a 4 year course. it's not a rumour, thats directly from the people in charge of finalising the details doe the course. cemshelp@ucd.ie

As an AP the course means nothing to me, all I'm going on is what the Prof has said.

GoProGaming

if it is a four year course i'd be pretty pissed off if i only came out as a paramedic, i'd be expecting AP status on the register. it would be interesting to see how they will extend a 270 hour course( +phtls and internship) into a full bsc program without dragging things out.

antichrist

GoProGaming wrote: »

if it is a four year course i'd be pretty pissed off if i only came out as a paramedic, i'd be expecting AP status on the register. it would be interesting to see how they will extend a 270 hour course( +phtls and internship) into a full bsc program without dragging things out.

As I said before......Just look at nursing. The 2 courses may be quite similar.

Edit: yes it is 4 years Long as stated above, most likely along the lines of nursing with the 4th year being on the road placement(internship), Just like nursing.
It won't be mon-fri learning as paramedic courses before but aligned like a regular collage course with half days, study days and semester breaks.

Your final qualification will be paramedic, Just as a nurse will be a rgn.....you can then go on and get your grad. Dip as an AP Just as a rgn can for on and specialize in a&e/Ccu etc.

Elessar

So will this be open to CAO applicants?

Part of me is delighted that the closed-shop mentality is finally lifting for PHEC training. On the other hand, if you come out as an AP after the course....how are you supposed to maintain CPC? If the HSE aren't hiring, I doubt the voluntaries or private companies will be able to offer the required CPC once they are announced. I doubt it's going to be as simple as "treat x patients in a year".

BoonDoc

antichrist wrote: »

To be honest you sound quite negative and bitter regarding qualifications in Ireland, Just leads me to assume (be it right or wrong) that you have had issue with your own qualifications here and have been left with a bad taste in your mouth.

The "bad taste in my mouth" is the realisation that many patients will die due to lack of skills of the "Paramedic."

Speaking for myself in rural South Kerry, I face the fact that due to the paramedic skills set no one can assess my arrythmias nor give drugs to treat them. It means that my fractured femur goes untreated for pain for the 80 minute bumpy ride to Tralee. It means that the .5% ROSC rate for all of Ireland is abysmal. Add that to the 30-40% ROSC rate in Dublin which means that my chance for survival is just about zero.

Angry? Hell yes. When I can visit third world countries and see better pre hospital care than rural Ireland.
Scared? Hell yes, knowing that I may be on a spine board for ten hours on a trolley in Ireland because no one is willing to teach the NEXXUS protocols for spinal clearing which are TEN YEARS OLD!!!!

All of this can be changed with proper Paramedic training equal to the US with proper CPGs.

antichrist

BoonDoc wrote: »

The "bad taste in my mouth" is the realisation that many patients will die due to lack of skills of the "Paramedic."

Speaking for myself in rural South Kerry, I face the fact that due to the paramedic skills set no one can assess my arrythmias nor give drugs to treat them. It means that my fractured femur goes untreated for pain for the 80 minute bumpy ride to Tralee. It means that the .5% ROSC rate for all of Ireland is abysmal. Add that to the 30-40% ROSC rate in Dublin which means that my chance for survival is just about zero.

Angry? Hell yes. When I can visit third world countries and see better pre hospital care than rural Ireland.
Scared? Hell yes, knowing that I may be on a spine board for ten hours on a trolley in Ireland because no one is willing to teach the NEXXUS protocols for spinal clearing which are TEN YEARS OLD!!!!

All of this can be changed with proper Paramedic training equal to the US with proper CPGs.

Phecc registered paramedics can do spinal ruleout.
They can also administer entonox, paracetamol and ibuprofen as well as apply a traction splint to your fractured femur. Not to mention request an AP via medevac112.

Paramedics can assess arrhythmias but I agree are limited in treatment. AP skill set is quite limited in that sense too but hopefully this is changing.

When you Call 999 in south Kerry there is a good chance of getting an AP as there are a few there already, not to mention 1 or 2 more currently getting trained up.

Yes the Irish system isn't perfect, but for a service that only 15 years ago had o2 and nurses while the US had ALS we've come on leaps and bounds in such a short time.

Mycroft H

PHECC have already been consulted on what the equivalent University semester length it will take for the Paramedic and Advanced Paramedic levels to complete.

In short for Paramedic; 2.5 semesters and 1 year internship. Given that there is usually 2 semesters per University year, that brings up the minimum time taken to 2.5 years. If it's going to be a four year course, that requires an awful and unnecessary amount of padding.




It's also worth pointing out that PHECC state; "It is important to point out that in Ireland there is no direct entry to the Advanced Paramedic course for students. The NQEMT Paramedic plus 2 years clinical practice are the pre‐requisite entry criteria."


So. UCDs course looks like a bit of a joke when it boils down to it. 4 years to become a Paramedic? That's not a Paramedic by US/UK standard? Why would I bother?


All taken from here; a PHECC bulletin from September 2013.

http://www.phecit.ie/Images/PHECC/Career%20and%20Education/Qualifications/BLN005%20Minimum%20duration%20and%20essential%20requirements%20of%20PHECC%20recognised%20practitioner%20level%20courses%20leading%20to%20registration.pdf

BoonDoc

antichrist wrote: »

Phecc registered paramedics can do spinal ruleout.
They can also administer entonox, paracetamol and ibuprofen as well as apply a traction splint to your fractured femur. Not to mention request an AP via medevac112.

Paramedics can assess arrhythmias but I agree are limited in treatment. AP skill set is quite limited in that sense too but hopefully this is changing.

When you Call 999 in south Kerry there is a good chance of getting an AP as there are a few there already, not to mention 1 or 2 more currently getting trained up.

Yes the Irish system isn't perfect, but for a service that only 15 years ago had o2 and nurses while the US had ALS we've come on leaps and bounds in such a short time.

Yes, a couple of tablets of pain meds may help take the edge off but what would they do for 10/10 pain?

Let's compare that to a real paramedic.

For a femur fracture a nice mix of micro dose ketamine with 2.5mg of midazolam. Sorry, entonox just is not good enough. With the new NR-P coming on board in the US they would even do a femoral block.

My fast heart would get quickly assessed and synced and I would be given a drug to slow it down. Here in Ireland? They would hold my hand on the ride to Tralee or Cork.

In my tiny town outside of Kenmare someone dropped with a heart attack right in the middle of the town. It took 20 minutes to get the PHECC Paramedics there. They could only do what the CFR was already doing (pushing and AED). The GP showed up and he couldn't do ALS either. The guy died from PHECC guidelines.

So basically, a one day trained CFR can roughly do just as much as a four year trained paramedic? They can put in an iGel, attach the AED and push......

Let's say I have chest pains. Easy MONA treatment right? Oh, but morphine is an AP skill. So I just have to deal with my chest pain to Cork? For an hour and a half? An the paramedics have no idea what kind of rhythm my heart is in?

So again I ask....what is taught on that 3.5 year Paramedic course that will make them better???? UK Paramedics are still going through a 2 year degree and getting far more skills than even APs.

crackcrack30

The easiest part of my job is (following the adequate training) is dealing with patients...


Its the circus that surrounds prehospital care that grinds me down and should be highlighted more here on this forum IMO to those considering a career as a practioner.


A few headings that I'm you could write a book on ...


-shift work.
-long extended days/nights.
-Droped ambulances, as in not covered.
-Missed breaks /fast food.
-lack of equipment or overworked unreliable vehicles.
-traffic and regulations with regard to blue light driving.
-communications poor dispatch info on nature of call.
-poor directions
-upskilling or lack of.
-Managing Aggressive or c2h50h patients.
-Management of different cultures/nationalities.
-bullying ....yes bullying.
-liason with other professionals such as garda, fire, G.P, triage, nursing, ppci.


Yes there have been improvements but they are slow and hard got even when recommended (i.e midaz). But dropping someone who has just completed 4 years in UCD with little or no exposure to prehospital care into some parts or regions would be like dropping them into the fire...

Tango Alpha 51

BoonDoc wrote: »

Yes, a couple of tablets of pain meds may help take the edge off but what would they do for 10/10 pain?

Let's compare that to a real paramedic.

For a femur fracture a nice mix of micro dose ketamine with 2.5mg of midazolam. Sorry, entonox just is not good enough. With the new NR-P coming on board in the US they would even do a femoral block.

My fast heart would get quickly assessed and synced and I would be given a drug to slow it down. Here in Ireland? They would hold my hand on the ride to Tralee or Cork.

In my tiny town outside of Kenmare someone dropped with a heart attack right in the middle of the town. It took 20 minutes to get the PHECC Paramedics there. They could only do what the CFR was already doing (pushing and AED). The GP showed up and he couldn't do ALS either. The guy died from PHECC guidelines.

So basically, a one day trained CFR can roughly do just as much as a four year trained paramedic? They can put in an iGel, attach the AED and push......

Let's say I have chest pains. Easy MONA treatment right? Oh, but morphine is an AP skill. So I just have to deal with my chest pain to Cork? For an hour and a half? An the paramedics have no idea what kind of rhythm my heart is in?

So again I ask....what is taught on that 3.5 year Paramedic course that will make them better???? UK Paramedics are still going through a 2 year degree and getting far more skills than even APs.

Paramedics do 12 leads & can recognise your rhythm, CFR-C's are not allowed use igels. You appear to have a major gripe with paramedics & their training in Ireland ?