Insulation

puddles59

Hi all our house is very cold even though it s only 8 years old so we obviously dont have it insulated very well. We re thinking about getting the pump job done but am looking for advice or suggestions.We're living in Galway. Cheers

murphaph

Before you even think about improving your insulation make sure you have tackled any draughts. The best insulation in the world is rendered useless by draughts.

shenanagans

Some of the companies that do the pump job will also improve your attic insulation as well. Look for pipes that aren't insulated, block up chimney if it's not used etc.

puddles59

Yes thanks for that as we think we are loseing alot of heat through our windows and doors.

the_syco

Are the windows single or double glazed, and do you have any sort or porch at your front door?

puddles59

No porch and yes they are double glazed. Im wondering if there is anything I could do to improve the window situation apart from replacing them.

Ray Palmer

If your house is that new it is unlikely to have a air cavity and already insulated. I am pretty sure it is in the building regs too the thermal value of your walls is certainly there. I would get your property inspected to see where the heat is going. Thermal view of the property and not a simple BER rating

The insulation guys will sell you their product regardless.

puddles59

Im not familar with a thermal view . Any idea who would do it or roughly how much it costs.

ted1

puddles59 wrote: »

Im not familar with a thermal view . Any idea who would do it or roughly how much it costs.

Shop around and get feedback. A few guys bought thermal cameras when times were good but don't really understand how to interrupt the images

puddles59

Thanks very much will look into it.

murphaph

8 year old rubber window seals may well not be sealing very well any more.

The seals don't last forever.

puddles59

Yes indeed thats true. will give the window company a ring and see how much it would cost to have a look at them. thanks all advice appreciated.

Bepolite

Also get the latches checked. There are grants for insulation as well as tax back - fully investigate

L1011

You won't be able to get the walls pumped as they'll already have insulation in them unless your house was an absolute and utter cowboy job.

Draught hunt BEFORE anything else. Candle works quite well for this - literally walk around looking to see where the flame gets blown off upright or out.

MicktheMan

ted1 wrote: »

A few guys bought thermal cameras when times were good but don't really understand how to interrupt the images

And then again, a few of us do:)

ted1

MicktheMan wrote: »

And then again, a few of us do:)

Absolutely that's why I didn't rule everybody out.
I know a few sparks who got cameras for panel inspections who try to do house inspections

puddles59

Yes i didnt realize that the pump insulation wouldnt work if the house was already well insulated so thats good to know.

shenanagans

I will probably get the pump job done on my house, I had a plumber in the house recently and I asked him if it would be worth my while doing it. He took me outside and opened one of the trap doors things at the gable of the house (like for access to ESB meter or wiring), he showed me the cavity between the walls (which was about 2 inches) and told me it would make a big improvement if I get it pumped.

I wouldn't assume the pump job was done when your house was built, plenty of cowboys around over the last decade. If you have access at the gable of your house get a key and open the doors, if the house has been pumped you'll clearly see the bead insulation showing in the wall cavity.

murphaph

Cavity wall insulation with fixed boards needs to be done quite carefully for it to be effective. Now, consider that the blocklayers who built those walls 8 years ago were being paid by the block and not by the quality of the installation of the fixed insulation boards in the cavity and you can see where problems might arise: blocklayers didn't give a sh!t about your future energy bills, so poorly functioning cavity wall insulation is sadly commonplace in Ireland and pumping these cavities can make a huge difference....but eliminate all draughts first and then add extra loft insulation (easy win) if possible before shelling out the big bucks for wall insulation.

Ray Palmer

murphaph wrote: »

Cavity wall insulation with fixed boards needs to be done quite carefully for it to be effective. Now, consider that the blocklayers who built those walls 8 years ago were being paid by the block and not by the quality of the installation of the fixed insulation boards in the cavity and you can see where problems might arise: blocklayers didn't give a sh!t about your future energy bills, so poorly functioning cavity wall insulation is sadly commonplace in Ireland and pumping these cavities can make a huge difference....but eliminate all draughts first and then add extra loft insulation (easy win) if possible before shelling out the big bucks for wall insulation.

Due to such construction pumping in insulation will not fix the problem. While the insulation guy will tell you the foam will fill all voids it just can't be done. You are very likely to get air pockets all around the house. This will cause cold bridging.
The best way to look at insulation is like a boat. If there is a hole in the boat it will leak the same with insulation. A hole in your insulation you get leaks. With that you will get cold spots on your walls and as a result can get damp in those patches.
In order for pumped insulation to work you would need to know exactly where the insulation isn't attached right and a place where you can pump it in to access the joined up voids. You would be drilling all over the walls to do this if you could tell in the first place. It just isn't practically possible.

Insulation internally or externally is really the only option if construction is wrong like that. External is expensive but less disruptive. Internal is very disruptive but cheaper however with all the auxiliary fixes I suspect would shoot that cost up and it is incredibly disruptive.

islander222

We got our 3 bed semi pump insulated this time two years ago, we only really researched the different companies and priced around - I didn't realise anything about some of the previous posts regarding the issues that could render it useless.... We were also shown the crappy insulation that existed via a little hole in the ESB box outside and it was bad!

All I can say is that two years later, no cold spots, house is way way warmer, holds the heat much better and we've made huge savings on our heating costs - Best money I ever spent anyway (in my own opinion).

A year later we removed the gas fire and installed a stove and that was the second best money we ever spent on the house :-)

Ray Palmer

islander222 wrote: »

All I can say is that two years later, no cold spots, house is way way warmer, holds the heat much better and we've made huge savings on our heating costs - Best money I ever spent anyway (in my own opinion).

Don't get me wrong you can easily get massive improvements even with poorly installed insulation and cold bridging. It doesn't mean it is actually installed correctly and that cold bridging isn't happening. You can get internal damp in your cavity that you won't notice for years. It may never even cause a problem either. Then again you certainly can have a problem especially when the foam blocking air circulation to your floor or roof. Foam can very easily do this. While insulation beads wouldn't.

There are dangers to insulation installation and due to the length of time to spot these problems you are unlikely to know for many years.

Any insulator that says they can fill cavity block on an old house is being very misleading

murphaph

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Any insulator that says they can fill cavity block on an old house is being very misleading

I think we're talking at crossed purposed here. I'm talking about pumping a cavity wall (ie, 2 walls of solid blocks side by side) while you appear to be talking about a single leaf wall built with 9" cavity blocks (this was common right into the late 80's). Indeed, pumping a single leaf wall of cavity blocks is totally pointless, but I do know some people who have still gone ahead and done it

For cavity block construction there are only 2 options: dry lining or externally cladded insulation.

Shedite27

On a similar note, what options are there for houses that have multiple chimneys.

A lot of the older style houses I've seen have 2 downstairs, possibly another one or two upstairs. Is it easy to get these filled in or removed?

Ray Palmer

murphaph wrote: »

I think we're talking at crossed purposed here. I'm talking about pumping a cavity wall (ie, 2 walls of solid blocks side by side) while you appear to be talking about a single leaf wall built with 9" cavity blocks (this was common right into the late 80's). Indeed, pumping a single leaf wall of cavity blocks is totally pointless, but I do know some people who have still gone ahead and done it

For cavity block construction there are only 2 options: dry lining or externally cladded insulation.

I got the difference I was just also pointing out cavity block walls can't be done with pumped insulation. I had 4 different companies saying they could do it and it would work. When I showed one guy the suppliers of the equipment he had saying it would not work on cavity block he said they didn't know what they were talking about:eek:

I have used 3 different companies now and I can say you have to make sure they do everything right yourself. They all chanced their arm. Sales guy says one thing and then the workers say another.

Idbatterim

I blocked the fresh air vent in my apartment bedroom, the window alone lets in a ton of air, due to requiring a new hinge, it doesnt seal properly... The sliding patio door leading out to the balcony, is so badly fitted that wind roars in under it, truly spectacular shoddy building...

Ray Palmer

Idbatterim wrote: »

I blocked the fresh air vent in my apartment bedroom, the window alone lets in a ton of air, due to requiring a new hinge, it doesnt seal properly... The sliding patio door leading out to the balcony, is so badly fitted that wind roars in under it, truly spectacular shoddy building...

Did you not do a snag list or notice when buying it?

Idbatterim

I rent the place, its charleville square in rathfarnham, getting it well below market rent, so not going to complain too much. the letting agency are going to get window sorted shortly, Ill get around to filling gaps with expansion foam or similar shortly...

DebDynamite

We hope to be getting the keys to our new house in the next few weeks and insulation is one of the first things we intend to do.

If the house is suitable for the pumped bead insulation, is it enough to make the house warmer? Or is there anything else we can do? We'll be re-skimming / re-plastering the walls anyway so we could do the dry lining insulation while we were at it.

Ray Palmer

DebDynamite wrote: »

We hope to be getting the keys to our new house in the next few weeks and insulation is one of the first things we intend to do.

If the house is suitable for the pumped bead insulation, is it enough to make the house warmer? Or is there anything else we can do? We'll be re-skimming / re-plastering the walls anyway so we could do the dry lining insulation while we were at it.

The surveyor never mentioned how the property is constructed and if it is insulated?

You shouldn't need both but if you are redoing the walls I would go for insulated plaster board as you can actually make sure it is installed correctly. Con is you lose space inside.

Remember you also insulate the wall under the floorboards. I will probably insulate my floor/ceiling space next as upstairs can get very warm.

murphaph

Ray Palmer wrote: »

I will probably insulate my floor/ceiling space next as upstairs can get very warm.

Just on that point...

What do Irish building regs say about insulation between floors and inside internal walls?

We're going to build a new house here in Berlin or in surrounding Brandenburg next Spring (currently site hunting!). We have a myriad of options when it comes to build type but I am a real fan of prefabricated houses. The one we are veering towards insulates the floors for sound and heat (but the house is a low energy house). As far as I know this is not a requirement of the building regs in Germany but it seems like it really should be. You can't really control the heat in a room using a TRV or similar if a good chunk of the heat in the room is actually coming from a room below!

Ray Palmer

murphaph wrote: »

Just on that point...

What do Irish building regs say about insulation between floors and inside internal walls?

We're going to build a new house here in Berlin or in surrounding Brandenburg next Spring (currently site hunting!). We have a myriad of options when it comes to build type but I am a real fan of prefabricated houses. The one we are veering towards insulates the floors for sound and heat (but the house is a low energy house). As far as I know this is not a requirement of the building regs in Germany but it seems like it really should be. You can't really control the heat in a room using a TRV or similar if a good chunk of the heat in the room is actually coming from a room below!

My days of knowing the regs inside out are gone. Our regs are more minimum settings rather than anything else. Insulating floors within a property is not something that is done normally done on domestic or even commercial buildings. You might get it in apartment blocks but lots of them are just concrete.

I agree with you it makes sense. We have the attic and walls insulated so the heat gets trapped in the bedrooms. If we do the floor it will be better for noise and comfort. Likely that we will put in a floating floor with insulation to the old floor. It would be the preferred way even for a new build in my eyes. I'd go for the ultra thin NASA insulation stuff because you want to be able to access the electric and plumbing fixture with relative ease.

MicktheMan

murphaph wrote: »

We're going to build a new house here in Berlin or in surrounding Brandenburg next Spring (currently site hunting!). We have a myriad of options when it comes to build type but I am a real fan of prefabricated houses. The one we are veering towards insulates the floors for sound and heat (but the house is a low energy house). As far as I know this is not a requirement of the building regs in Germany but it seems like it really should be. You can't really control the heat in a room using a TRV or similar if a good chunk of the heat in the room is actually coming from a room below!

The days of large variations in temperature from room to room should be gone if building a new house and also large fluctuations in temperature over the day should be a thing of the past.
Have you considered Passiv Haus (especially as you will be building in Germany, the home of the PH)? I would if in your shoes and educate myself on the principles involved. Good luck in any case.

murphaph

Yeah it'll be a passiv haus. The crowd we're going with do a deal: for a 120m² house they supply a heat pump, the 100m bore for geothermal and underfloor heating for €12k. We'll be paying a bit more though as we want to build a cellar.

MicktheMan

murphaph wrote: »

Yeah it'll be a passiv haus. The crowd we're going with do a deal: for a 120m² house they supply a heat pump, the 100m bore for geothermal and underfloor heating for €12k. We'll be paying a bit more though as we want to build a cellar.

Are you sure its a passiv haus because, if done properly, there is no need for a conventional wet heating system

murphaph

MicktheMan wrote: »

Are you sure its a passiv haus because, if done properly, there is no need for a conventional wet heating system

I'll double check. How would you heat it otherwise Mick?

MicktheMan

murphaph wrote: »

I'll double check. How would you heat it otherwise Mick?

I'll try to keep it brief:

1st point is a heating system's role is not to heat a house but to replace the heat that's lost from the house.

PH principle is to build the thermal envelope such that there is very very little heat loss. Therefore, very little heat is required to maintain temps. This "heating" is supplied through solar gains and other gains from normal domestic activities/appliances.

A very good explanation here.

murphaph

Hi Mick,
then I was mistaken. We will be building what the Germans call an Effizienzhaus 40 (<40kWh/m²*a). In Germany you can obtain up to €50k at low interest rates such as 1.7% fixed for 10 years) if you build to such energy efficiency standards.

Our house will be "near passiv" I would say. The walls will have a U-Value of 0.147W/m²K, the roof 0.178, the windows 0.7 (triple glazed) and the floor plate 0.205. It will have a ventilation system with 90% energy recovery from exhaust air. It will be near airtight of course (blower tested).

We intend using geothermal for a heat source coupled with underfloor heating (I just love warmth under my feet!).

Idbatterim

came across this in the indo earlier, is this actually something new or is it an airsource heat pump?

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/innovative-new-heating-system-may-yet-save-us-all-millions-29950123.html

sarkozy

murphaph wrote: »

Just on that point...

What do Irish building regs say about insulation between floors and inside internal walls?

We're going to build a new house here in Berlin or in surrounding Brandenburg next Spring (currently site hunting!). We have a myriad of options when it comes to build type but I am a real fan of prefabricated houses. The one we are veering towards insulates the floors for sound and heat (but the house is a low energy house). As far as I know this is not a requirement of the building regs in Germany but it seems like it really should be. You can't really control the heat in a room using a TRV or similar if a good chunk of the heat in the room is actually coming from a room below!

Whereabouts are you looking for sites!? Sounds great. And ... can I ask what's got you in Berlin?

Victor

This is an old thread. Other posts have been split off and moved here: Thermal stability problem

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