The Quenelle

Mint Sauce

**WARNING. SERIOUS THREAD ALERT**

Firstly, If you have been following the Anelka/WBS/Zoopla story, lets put that totally aside for this, and discuss this gesture on its own.

Secondly, sorry if I come across abit uneducated on the subject, but could someone please explain the controversy of this.

From what I understand, its suppose to be anti-Semitic, and has been compared to the Nazi Salute, but also from reading about it, its also been used as a anti-establishment gesture, and has also been compared to the up yours/fisting gesture, something to do with the original meaning of the word.

So was it actually ever used by the Nazis, or used against the Jewish community. Or was it simply once a jesture, like the finger or w*nker sign is know, and then hijaked or evolved to what it is now.

RidleyRider

Sits back, gathers popcorn for the show:pac:

kev1.3s

A load of bull if you ask me, very few would have even heard of it if it wasn't for a foolish footballer with more money than brains and now the media have hyped it up so much it's here to stay.

Mint Sauce

kev1.3s wrote: »

A load of bull if you ask me, very few would have even heard of it if it wasn't for a foolish footballer with more money than brains and now the media have hyped it up so much it's here to stay.

This was one of my thoughts as well, hence the orriginal question.

elefant

I read up on this yesterday. From the wikipedia page it seems to have been first used in the very recent past by a comedian, and was intended to be anti-establishment, and later anti-zionist.

It wasn't entirely clear to me from wikipedia where the current, apparently strong, anti-Semitic connotations came from, but I guess, as is the case with any symbol/gesture, meanings can change. Interesting how the meaning of gestures like that can be so transient.

I'm none the wiser how it happened though.

Herb Powell

Mint Sauce wrote: »

**WARNING. SERIOUS THREAD ALERT**

Firstly, If you have been following the Anelka/WBS/Zoopla story, lets put that totally aside for this, and discuss this gesture on its own.

Secondly, sorry if I come across abit uneducated on the subject, but could someone please explain the controversy of this.

From what I understand, its suppose to be anti-Semitic, and has been compared to the Nazi Salute, but also from reading about it, its also been used as a anti-establishment gesture, and has also been compared to the up yours/fisting gesture, something to do with the original meaning of the word.

So was it actually ever used by the Nazis, or used against the Jewish community. Or was it simply once a jesture, like the finger or w*nker sign is know, and then hijaked or evolved to what it is now.

Well IDK about you, but I find this pretty provocative

http://www.thelocal.fr/userdata/images/1388414494_1388406043_quenelle_Le_point_screengrab.jpg

humanji

elefant wrote: »

I read up on this yesterday. From the wikipedia page it seems to have been first used in the very recent past by a comedian, and was intended to be anti-establishment, and later anti-zionist.

It wasn't entirely clear to me from wikipedia where the current, apparently strong, anti-Semitic connotations came from, but I guess, as is the case with any symbol/gesture, meanings can change. Interesting how the meaning of gestures like that can be so transient.

I'm none the wiser how it happened though.

The comedian is a self-proclaimed anti-Zionist, but comes across to me as quite anti-Semitic. This is why the salute was adopted by neo-Nazis and all sorts of racists.

Using it and claiming you meant the innocent original meaning is no different to making a Nazi salute and claiming you did it in reference to the US boy scouts who did it first. You're not going to be believed, and the chances of you actually telling the truth are pretty slim.

Collie D

humanji wrote: »

The comedian is a self-proclaimed anti-Zionist, but comes across to me as quite anti-Semitic. This is why the salute was adopted by neo-Nazis and all sorts of racists.

Using it and claiming you meant the innocent original meaning is no different to making a Nazi salute and claiming you did it in reference to the US boy scouts who did it first. You're not going to be believed, and the chances of you actually telling the truth are pretty slim.

Thank you. I Googled it and your post was more objective than the first few links I clicked on.

Still not sure where it originated bar the comedian guy.

Mint Sauce

Herb Powell wrote: »

Well IDK about you, but I find this pretty provocative

http://www.thelocal.fr/userdata/images/1388414494_1388406043_quenelle_Le_point_screengrab.jpg

Well in fairness, a skinhead performing almost any kind of jesture outside a POW Camp, or Jewish burial site I too would find provocative, unless they were actually performing an up yours towards the Nazi generals in charge.

If the gesture was actually adopted by Neo Nazis or anti-semitics, it still does not answer the question to its origins.

Tombo2001

kev1.3s wrote: »

A load of bull if you ask me, very few would have even heard of it if it wasn't for a foolish footballer with more money than brains and now the media have hyped it up so much it's here to stay.

If there was a handsalute out there that was being used as an anti-Irish gesture, say in Australia or Britain, you can be damn sure we'd know about it. A Peruvian or a Bulgarian might not know about it.

And maybe Jewish people know about the Quenelle for the same reason.

IvyTheTerrible

kev1.3s wrote: »

A load of bull if you ask me, very few would have even heard of it if it wasn't for a foolish footballer with more money than brains and now the media have hyped it up so much it's here to stay.

I think it's because it's making quite a lot of waves in the last few months in France after Dieudonné (French stand up comedian) used it. Other people are using it as an antisemetic gesture here in France. Anelka being French would know exactly the significance of what he did.
EDIT Before the Francois Hollande affair, it was the headline every day for weeks).

dxhound2005

There goes a perfectly nice word (like Gay) which will lose it's original meaning.

http://www.onelook.com/?w=Quenelle&ls=a

I always thought a quenelle was when they made they ice cream into fancy egg type shape for with your posh apple pie.

ballsymchugh

its caused loads of nice free advertising for zoopla anyway

humanji

Deleted User wrote: »

I always thought a quenelle was when they made they ice cream into fancy egg type shape for with your posh apple pie.

It is. It's essentially a dumpling made out of anything. The new meaning refers to making a dumpling shape with your hand and sticking it up someone's arse. So remember that when you're having your icecream and apple pie.

ScumLord

It's nonsense like this that encouraged me to stop reading the news and following popular culture. Who gives a flying **** about a gesture made up by some obscure French comedian? Why do the people complaining not see they're promoting him by getting so vocal about something that would have died a death if they didn't make an issue out of it?

gimmick

If the gesture was so offensive, it wouldnt be shown on all the media covering it lately.

It is a relatively new gestured, supposedly "debuted" in 2005.

The Jewish community deemed it as a "reverse nazi salute". Which to me sounds a load of bollocks and like someone who is looking to be offended. This was due to the originator POLITICAL views (note the word Political, not religious).

So yes, it is now being used as some sort of anti semite gesture. Had the people who called foul on it first day not been so hyper sensitive chances are there would be no such this as this gesture anymore.

IvyTheTerrible

ScumLord wrote: »

It's nonsense like this that encouraged me to stop reading the news and following popular culture. Who gives a flying **** about a gesture made up by some obscure French comedian? Why do the people complaining not see they're promoting him by getting so vocal about something that would have died a death if they didn't make an issue out of it?

Apparently, he's not that obscure. For someone who is never allowed to speak or promote himself in the mainstream media, he gets the most spectators of all French comedians at his shows. (of course all this hype helps).

jimgoose

gimmick wrote: »

...The Jewish community deemed it as a "reverse nazi salute"...

Surely if it actually is a "reverse Nazi" salute, then it's pro-Semitic??

gimmick

jimgoose wrote: »

Surely if it actually is a "reverse Nazi" salute, then it's pro-Semitic??

Exactly, the argument is ridiculous.

humanji

gimmick wrote: »

The Jewish community deemed it as a "reverse nazi salute". Which to me sounds a load of bollocks and like someone who is looking to be offended. This was due to the originator POLITICAL views (note the word Political, not religious).

While there's many members of Jewish groups who go out of their way to find anything to call anti-Semitic, the guy who created this salute does come across as a genuine anti-Semite. So I think in this case, they were right.

It's only recently that it's come into the media light a lot, but before that it was a well used underground salute for neo-Nazis. This doesn't seem to be causing more people to adopt it, it's exposing people who already do it.

IvyTheTerrible

humanji wrote: »

While there's many members of Jewish groups who go out of their way to find anything to call anti-Semitic, the guy who created this salute does come across as a genuine anti-Semite. So I think in this case, they were right.

It's only recently that it's come into the media light a lot, but before that it was a well used underground salute for neo-Nazis. This doesn't seem to be causing more people to adopt it, it's exposing people who already do it.

Yes. He denies the Holocaust (or the extent of it), as well as denying the September 11 attacks. He also thinks the French arts are controlled by the Jews.

gimmick

humanji wrote: »

While there's many members of Jewish groups who go out of their way to find anything to call anti-Semitic, the guy who created this salute does come across as a genuine anti-Semite. So I think in this case, they were right.

It's only recently that it's come into the media light a lot, but before that it was a well used underground salute for neo-Nazis. This doesn't seem to be causing more people to adopt it, it's exposing people who already do it.

Ya, this is true, and the "comedian" who started it does seem to be a bit of a prick. I am just not convinced that it should have caused the uproar that it has in recent weeks.

I mean, to take it back to sports again, former England captain Alan Shearer - his goal celebration could have been deemed offensive as it was basically a nazi salute while running. Did this cause any uproar? No. And why not? Because he is not a nazi and it was never meant as a nazi salute.

humanji

IvyTheTerrible wrote:

Yes. He denies the Holocaust (or the extent of it), as well as denying the September 11 attacks. He also thinks the French arts are controlled by the Jews.

Really? Yeesh, didn't realise he was that far off the reservation.

humanji

gimmick wrote: »

Ya, this is true, and the "comedian" who started it does seem to be a bit of a prick. I am just not convinced that it should have caused the uproar that it has in recent weeks.

I mean, to take it back to sports again, former England captain Alan Shearer - his goal celebration could have been deemed offensive as it was basically a nazi salute while running. Did this cause any uproar? No. And why not? Because he is not a nazi and it was never meant as a nazi salute.

But is that not a different case then? Now, I'm not actually familiar with the Alan Shearer incident, but him doing a salute that he says wasn't a nazi salute, and the new footballer guy (no idea of his name) doing the Quenelle and admitting that that was what he was doing aren't the same.

golfball37

Was the Quenelle not a Welsh Rugby player who played for the Lions also?

gimmick

humanji wrote: »

But is that not a different case then? Now, I'm not actually familiar with the Alan Shearer incident, but him doing a salute that he says wasn't a nazi salute, and the new footballer guy (no idea of his name) doing the Quenelle and admitting that that was what he was doing aren't the same.

My point is people can get upset over things which can mean absolutely nothing.

Shearers celebration was never anything other than they way he celebrated. I am deciding now that it was a nazi salute that he got away with his entire career!

Anyway, its not a sport conversation.

I just feel that the hyper sensitivities of some make them almost look for issues to be offended by.

biko

Never did hear about it before, isn't soccer great for learning things..

goose2005

humanji wrote: »

The comedian is a self-proclaimed anti-Zionist, but comes across to me as quite anti-Semitic. This is why the salute was adopted by neo-Nazis and all sorts of racists.

It's a way of doing a Nazi salute while claiming that you're not doing one. Similarly, he has a thing called "Shoananas" which is a way of denying the Holocaust without actually denying it.

humanji

gimmick wrote: »

My point is people can get upset over things which can mean absolutely nothing.

Shearers celebration was never anything other than they way he celebrated. I am deciding now that it was a nazi salute that he got away with his entire career!

Anyway, its not a sport conversation.

I just feel that the hyper sensitivities of some make them almost look for issues to be offended by.

But that's the thing. This isn't people deciding it means something, so that they can be offended by it. This is about a salute that's designed to cause offence against Zionists and is being used as as an insult to Jewish people. I don't think that's not something to be shrugged off.

If it was a nazi salute people were doing, would it still be nothing to worry about? As I said above, there's Jewish groups that search out any little thing to claim as being anti-Semitic, but this time they're right. The salute doesn't mean nothing. And the media, while always in it for the story, are merely highlighting something that is becoming more common.

anncoates

Have one of the tabloids came out with a fucquenelle headline yet?

y0ssar1an22

Are we destined for mass censorship if this nonsense continues? Soon we wont be able to do anything for fear of offending someone.

humanji

y0ssar1an22 wrote: »

Are we destined for mass censorship if this nonsense continues? Soon we wont be able to do anything for fear of offending someone.

Well apart from the huge leap in logic, you're also missing the point. Think of it as saying "n*gger" as you walk down the road in the hopes that you'll offend some black people. Is it really a bad thing that someone should ask you to stop?

Friend Computer

y0ssar1an22 wrote: »

Are we destined for mass censorship if this nonsense continues? Soon we wont be able to do anything for fear of offending someone.

Do you think censure and censor mean the same thing? Is free speech a one-way street? Are people not just as free to express condemnation of that which they don't like?

Chazz Michael Michaels

Poor non Jewish semites...

A. Rasher

humanji wrote: »

But that's the thing. This isn't people deciding it means something, so that they can be offended by it. This is about a salute that's designed to cause offence against Zionists and is being used as as an insult to Jewish people. I don't think that's not something to be shrugged off.

anti-zionist does not equal anti-semitic,

humanji

A. Rasher wrote: »

anti-zionist does not equal anti-semitic,

That's why I'm pointing out that it's been taken on by anti-Semites now as well.

y0ssar1an22

Friend Computer wrote: »

Do you think censure and censor mean the same thing? Is free speech a one-way street? Are people not just as free to express condemnation of that which they don't like?

what I am saying is that some things are banned because they are considered to be discriminatory against certain people/religion/whatever.
What happens when people start claiming the most innocuous things offend their religion? Surly they must also be banned?
After all, all religions should have equal opportunity to be offended.

humanji

Well that's always going to be a worry. Like I said, there's already groups claiming XYZ is anti-Semitic when it's clearly not. But this time it seems to be a legit complaint. Kind of like the Boy Who Cried Wolf, I suppose. It's getting hard to know when there's really something there.

kev1.3s

humanji wrote: »

But that's the thing. This isn't people deciding it means something, so that they can be offended by it. This is about a salute that's designed to cause offence against Zionists and is being used as as an insult to Jewish people. I don't think that's not something to be shrugged off.

If it was a nazi salute people were doing, would it still be nothing to worry about? As I said above, there's Jewish groups that search out any little thing to claim as being anti-Semitic, but this time they're right. The salute doesn't mean nothing. And the media, while always in it for the story, are merely highlighting something that is becoming more common.

I've no doubt that it's designed to cause offence and anelka and any one in a position of influence be derided for the use of such a gesture. but as someone has said zoopla are lapping it up as are the tabloids and all it's going to achieve is that the number or morons performing and uploading this gesture outside auschwitz is going to increase.

The Diabolical Monocle

What would Joan Rivers or Larry David say about it.

They are now the official policy makers on the quenelle in my book.

Mint Sauce

So the general thoughts so far, it was basically or originally a fcuk you/up yours sign, that has been adopted by anti-Semitics.

On further reading, the sign originally had the performer tapping their shoulder. Theres even a guide, where the further up your arm you tap your self, the higher you are, if you excuss the language, f*cking some one up the a*se.

Its not a sign I recall being performed often, and with alot of things, people could performing it with no idea what its means, or if they are offending someone.

I fear a whole new generation of underage footballers/soccer players, adopting this into their goal celebrations, again not knowing the significance of it.

Wattle

It was a pretty stupid move for Anelka to do it in such a ban happy sport as football. Anything the least bit controversial is just asking for a suspension.

kev1.3s

Mint Sauce wrote: »

So the general thoughts so far, it was basically or originally a fcuk you/up yours sign, that has been adopted by anti-Semitics.

On further reading, the sign originally had the performer tapping their shoulder. Theres even a guide, where the further up your arm you tap your self, the higher you are, if you excuss the language, f*cking some one up the a*se.

Its not a sign I recall being performed often, and with alot of things, people could performing it with no idea what its means, or if they are offending someone.

I fear a whole new generation of underage footballers/soccer players, adopting this into their goal celebrations, again not knowing the significance of it.

O I think they know now.

y0ssar1an22

So is the gesture racist or are some people considering it to be racist?

keith16

Very opportunistic for the West Brom sponsor to kick up a big fuss about it a few hours prior to their televised matched.

If they were seriously upset about it, they would take it up privately with the club but they're not and they didn't.

kev1.3s

keith16 wrote: »

Very opportunistic for the West Brom sponsor to kick up a big fuss about it a few hours prior to their televised matched.

If they were seriously upset about it, they would take it up privately with the club but they're not and they didn't.

I would assume that if they wanted they could terminate immediately.

Sir Gallagher

Why dont these pussies not just do the nazi salute? All this oh its anti zionist not anti semetic nonsense is a pure cop out, if you're going to be racist grow a pair of balls and do it properly. Anelka is a pure clown for doing this and thinking he'd get away with it.

ballsymchugh

kev1.3s wrote: »

I would assume that if they wanted they could terminate immediately.

Zoopla's founder is jewish, hence the fuss over it. they're not renewing the sponsorship next season.

Mint Sauce

Any chance of keeping Anelka/WBA/Zoolpa out of the debate, and keep it to the gesture its self. Already a thread on the soccer forum, and dont want to see this one locked due to decending to much into the soccer aspect of it.

keith16

ballsymchugh wrote: »

Zoopla's founder is jewish, hence the fuss over it. they're not renewing the sponsorship next season.

That was already the case prior to the incident.