Prehistoric Hiberno/Serbian theory

slowburner

Fine, where relevant but a discussion of whether or not the Romans had a significant presence on this island needs to be kept in the appropriate thread.

dublinviking

Ipso

So far it's been I2a and G2 that has turned up in ancient DNA
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...-for-Europeans
A more recently released result from Spain may even be haplogroup C.
I have seen haplogroup J being suggested as being potentially linked to the spread of farming.

R1a is usually associated with Eastern Europe and may have played a role in spreading Indo European there. I think R1b-p312 and it's subgroups correlate better with its spread in Western Europe.

These are Estimates. So are Kljusov's estimates. And they are vastly different. And Kljusov's estimates match archaeological and anthropological data much better. I personally think that R1a is a lot older than what your diagram of "estimated" dates shows. But it is also quite possible that all the cultural traits related to fire worship came from I2 Balkan population. Which got transferred to R1 which later became R1b. We will see. You also need to take into account, that fire worshipers, and R1a were Agni followers, burned their dead. So no bodies to be discovered and analyzed for genetic markers. All the old Serbian graves contain burned remains, and sometimes there are no remains at all, just a marker. The remains were probably poured in rivers...

cfuserkildare

As regards the colour scheme associated with Ireland an all things Irish, again these are relatively recent, the paintings/iconas, these are all church oriented/inspired, and Western RC and Eastern Orthodox shared artists and most religious origins.

Slavic colors are Blue, Red and white. Just look at all the Slavic flags, including modern Serbian flag. Green, orange and gold are highly unusual colors for Slavs. Not many Serbs actually know about this green flag. Did you read the description of May day celebrations in the Balkans and in Ireland? Do you see the amount of common pre christian customs? What about the May bush custom which only exists in Irish lands and in South Slavic lands?

Three customs---May flowers, May bush and May bough---involving greenery are associated with the celebration of Bealtaine (1 May), in Ireland.

The custom of using yellow flowers and greenery to decorate the outside of the house, outbuildings, and wells was once common throughout Ireland except in the counties of Munster (southwest Ireland). The flowers must be gathered and used on May eve (the evening of the last day of April) and must never be brought into the house. Also, flowers must not be picked on any day in May. The May bush is a small tree or part of one, often a whitethorn, that is set up outside the house on May Eve. The bush is decorated with flowers, ribbons, bits of paper, and pieces of colored eggshell saved from Easter celebrations. Increasingly, decorating the May bush has become a children's activity. In the last few decades, its popularity has spread, gradually replacing the May flowers custom outside of Munster. All the greenery customs seem designed to encourage the forces of growth implicit in the season. The yellow flowers may be living symbols of the sun, the source of growth energy. The way the May bush has replaced the May flowers within a few decades points out that customs can readily change. Lysaght speculates that the May bush was able to replace the May flowers custom because it makes use of May flowers and, in a way, combined the two customs.

The May bush custom is rare in Munster, where the May bough, little known elsewhere, dominates. The custom consists of cutting a small bough early in the morning of 1 May and hanging it inside the house. Except in a few isolated areas, flowers are not combined with the bough. Even in those cases, the flowers are gathered on the morning of 1 May (unlike the flowers hung in other parts of Ireland or used with the May bush).

The way the May bough dominates Munster but is almost unknown elsewhere is an excellent example of how customs can vary from one region to another. Folk customs are based on a belief that there is a right way, time, place, and action for each occasion. The efficacy of a custom was thought to depend on its being done properly. The differences in timing and place demonstrate why customs should not be lumped together or used interchangeably if one wishes to be true to the tradition and its beliefs.

How many of you have even heard of this "Irish custom"? Did you see the pictures of the May bush from the Balkans? Did you see that the celebration clearly predates Christianity and is the celebration of Jarilo, the raging fire, the white fire, bel tine, beltane. In Ireland no one knows what god the Beltane is dedicated to. Some say that the god was Baal. But maybe that is just bastardization of Bel, Ban, White, the sun?

Baal or Bel is associated with the fires. Beltane was the Lucky Fire through which cattle were passed for purification. Spenser declared that in his day the Irish never put out a fire without a prayer. The Gabha-Bheil, or trial by Beil, subjected the person with bare feet to pass three times through a fire. A festival is mentioned, when birds and other creatures, previously caught, were set free with lights attached to them. There was an old Irish prayer, Bealaine, corrupted to Bliadhain. Then we have Bealtinne, or Baal's fire; the cromlech, near Cork, of Bealach magdadhair; aiche Beltinne, the night of Baal's fire; Baaltinglas; Beil-aine, circle of Baal, &c.

Mrs. Anna Wilkes, in Ireland, the Ur of the Chaldees, sees in the Irish and Hebrew word ur, the sacred fire. A fire-priest was Ur-bad, or Hyr-bad. The perpetual fire in the monastery of Seighir, says the Tripartite Life, was at the place where St. Patrick first met St. Kieran. The Rinceadh-fada was a sacred dance of the Irish at Beil-tinne, like dances recorded of Phoenicia and Assyria. At Uisneach, the Navel of Ireland, where the Druids lighted the first fire of the season, courts were regularly held till long after Christian times.

The Venerable Bede records that even in his lifetime many of the Irish were given to fire-worship. Fraser assures his readers that "in the south of Ireland, the wayside beggar, whose appeals for charity have met with a liberal response, can think of no benediction so comprehensive as 'May the blessing of Bel rest upon you!"'

Culdees, the recognized successors of the Druids in Ireland and Scotland, are said to owe their name—cal, gal, or ceill—to the word meaning preserver of fire. "It is still lucky," writes one, "for the young people to jump over the flames, or for cattle to pass between two fires." Another says, "Our forefathers sent their sons and daughters through the fire to Moloch." In Toland's day firebrands were cast about the fields of corn at Midsummer Eve, the survival of prayers to the fire-god to give heat for the harvest perfection. He calls the November fire, Tine-tlached-gha, or fire-ground. And yet, Arthur Clive considered fire-worship opposed alike to Druidism and the faith preceding it.

In the Book of Rights, so ably reproduced by J. O'Donovan, there are four seasons described—Earrach, Samhradh, Foghmhar, and Geimeridh, which he finds to be "undoubtedly Irish words not derived from the Latin through Christianity." Fires were lighted at Bealtaine in the beginning of Samhradh. The summer-end fires, Samhain, were known by the name of Tlachtgha. The new fire was produced by the wheel and spindle, with tow. The wheel, a solar symbol, must be turned by the spokes in the direction of the sun's daily course.

As Scotland, especially the western part, was largely peopled from Ireland, it would not be surprising to recognize Baal or fire-worship there.

All Hallow Eve ceremonies are well known, and especially the passing through the fire, although the Council of Constantinople, 680, expressly prohibited the heathen practice of leaping through the fire. The Rev. Alan Stewart, referring to such fires in his parish of Kirkmichael, famous for its Druidical circle, said, "The practice of lighting bonfires prevails in this and the neighbouring Highland parishes." These were the Tinegin or Needfires.

Regular Baal-fires continued in Ayrshire till 1780, and milkmaids still like to drive their cows through the flames with a rowan stick. The proper way to light the fire is by friction. S. Laing writes of "the Bel-fires which, when I was young, were lighted on Midsummer night on the hills of Orkney and Shetland. As a boy, I have rushed, with my playmates, through the smoke of these bonfires, without a suspicion that we were repeating the homage paid to Baal in the Valley of Hinnom."

One cannot help remembering the passage in Isa. 1. ii—"All ye that kindle a fire, that compass yourselves about with sparks, walk in the light of your fire, and in the sparks that ye have kindled." Virgil records a prayer to Apollo at Soracte:—

"Whom first we serve, whole woods of unctuous pine
Burn on thy Heap, and to thy glory shine;
By thee protected, with our naked soles,
Thro' flame unsinged we pass, and tread the kindled coals."

The poet did not add that such devotees first applied a special ointment to their feet.

The Scotch Beltane, till lately, was observed in the Hebrides with something more heathen than the fire. The people lighted the fire by the old fashion of friction with two pieces of wood, and then ate the consecrated cake indulged in by pagan Syrians. The Scotch had the mixture of eggs, milk, and oatcake. This was broken up, and distributed among the assembly. Whoever got the black bit, hidden in the cake, was considered worthy of sacrifice to Baal, as the cailteach bealtine. He was pushed into the fire, though soon rescued, and afterwards had to leap three times through the flames. The term Beltane carline was ever a name of reproach.

In other places, at the Bealtine, a trench was cut round the fire, the young men assembled in the circle, and cast lots who should be the threefold leaper. Before eating the consecrated oatcake, a libation, in heathen style, was poured upon the ground. The Scotch generally are not now so given to sacramentarianism. Dr. Donald Clark conceives that the Beltane is not derived from Baal.

The Isle of Man, coming more under the influence of Ireland than any neighbouring land, has survivals of the old worship. Waldron asserts, "Not a family in the old Island, of natives, but keeps a fire constantly burning—or the most terrible devastations and mischief would immediately ensue." Train, in his account of the people, writes—"Almost down to the present time, no native of the Isle of Man will lend anything on either of the great Druidical festivals."

The Deas-iul dance, anciently in honour of the sun, is still practised there, going, like the sun, from east to south in its course, not ear-tuia-iul, or going round by east to north. Fires were kept up on the first of November, as at Hallowe'en.

Plowden, another historian of the place, remarks that—"The Scotch, Irish, and Manx call the first day of May, Beiltein, or the day of Baal's fire." A newspaper of 1837 has this paragraph—"On May-day the people of the Isle of Man have, from time immemorial, burned all the whin bushes in the Island, conceiving that they thereby burn all the witches and fairies, which they believe take refuge there."

In like manner, in the Isle of Lewis, they had the custom of Dessil (right hand), or Dess, from carrying fire in the right hand about houses and the stock. When a murrain occurred among the cattle there, all fires were formerly put out, and a fresh flame obtained by the rubbing of two planks together.

The Gaelic Councils tried in vain to arrest this fire devotion. James I. of Scotland has left a poem on the custom—

"At Beltane, quhen ilk bodie bownis
To Peblis to the play—"

that is, at Beltane all went to the play or games at Peebles.

In Cornwall, another part under Irish influence, Midsummer Eve was kept up with fire rejoicings. At Penzance, until a few years ago, on that eve men carried two barrels on poles. Others had torches and rockets, and girls held flowers. All at once all joined hands, and ran through the streets, crying out, "An eye! an eye!"—when an eye was opened by a pair, and all passed through. The old country dance was one in the same style.

No one needs reminding how far Wales, long under Irish rule, had similar fire customs. At Newton Nottage, till very recently, people leaped through the Midsummer fires. Of this custom, Theodoret, in condemnation of it, admitted that it was held as an expiation of sin. Great fires were kept up formerly on the noonside rock of Brimham, a Yorkshire Druidical locality.

France, especially in Brittany, has survivals of fire-worship. Such fires were useful to bless the apple-trees, and forward the harvest. A Breton priest was once called Belec, which means a servant of Baal. Outside Paris, Baal fires were lighted on St. John's Eve. Flammarion, in 1867, wrote—"In the evening the bonfires in honour of the feast of St. John were lighted all around Angouleme, and men and women were dancing before them, and jumping over them almost all night."

Russia and India have their leaping through the flames. In the first, a straw figure of Kupalo, a sort of representative of vegetation, was thrown in the fire. Germans had a straw image of the god Thor. In Mexico, babes on their fourth day were passed through fire.

Sonnerat had this account of the Darma, a Feast of Fire in India:—"It lasts eighteen days, during which time those who make a vow to keep it must fast, abstain from women, lie on the bare ground, and walk on a brisk fire. On the eighteenth day, they assemble on the sound of instruments, their heads covered with flowers, the body daubed with saffron, and follow in cadence the figures of Darma Rajah and Dobrede his wife, who are carried there in procession. When they come to the fire, they stir it to animate its activity, and take a little of the ashes, with which they rub their foreheads; and when the gods have been three times round it, they walk, either fast or slow, according to their zeal, over a very hot fire, extended to about forty feet in length."

Fire-worship may be the purest form of idolatry; as flame, so nearly immaterial, ever moving, always aspiring, is a type of the spiritual,—is useful, although dangerous. But no form of idolatry could be more cruel than the fiery adoration of the grim Moloch. Symbols are agreeable to fancy, and often helpful; but they may, and repeatedly do, lead men to crass idolatry.

http://www.libraryireland.com/Druids/Beltane.php

Did you see the mentions of the solar dances? which are called deiseil, Deas-iul, the circular dances which follow the movement of the sun, from east to west, from left to right, rightward, clockwise?

Serbian word for right side is des, desno, desna. Irish word for right side is des. We also have Latin, Greek and Sanskrit dex. But Irish and Serbian are identical. And Serbs traditional, ritual dance, dances at every special occasion is the circular dance, kolo, oro, the sun dance. You can see it being danced around the may bush in the pictures i posted.

deiseil (scots gaelic)- in the direction of the apparent course of the sun; clockwise, to the right (desno in Serbian)

deas - right, south, Irish deas, Old Irish dess, Welsh deheu, Cornish dyghow, Middle Breton dehou, *dekso-s, *deksivo-s (Stokes); Latin dexter; Greek @Gdexió;s; Gothic taihsva; Lithuanian deszine@? (n.), Church Slavonic desi@unu@u, right; Sanskrit daksina-s.
deas, -eise, a., right (as opposed to left); mo lámh dheas, my right hand, etc.; also as subs., mo dheas agus mo chlé, my right and left; ar deis mo láimhe clé, convenient to my left hand.
deas, -eise, a., pretty, handsome, lovely, pleasant, nice; ready, dexterous, expert, proper, fit; b'é ba dheas chuige (also air), he was indeed expert at it.
deas, teas, theas, the south, the south side; an taobh dheas, the south side or quarter, when we face the east; cf. Deasmhumha, South Munster; tá sé theas i mBaile Bhoirne, he is in Ballyvourney in the south; andeas, from the south; tá an ghaoth andeas, there is a south
wind blowing; ódheas, southward.

Both words des and dexs have complete etymology in Serbian. This etymology is derived from the base sounds of Serbian, the natural sounds, which were used to build first words. The difference is dialectic, and this same dialectic difference exists today between south east and north west dialects of Serbian.

des = d + e + s = where + is + sun = modern north west Serbian: de je sunce
deks = d + ga + s = where + pointing, goes, is + sun = modern south east Serbian: ku de ga sunce

d,t - sounds of hitting something solid, an object
e - the meaning is "is, it is, here it is". i believe that it is a natural sound of presenting something to someone. Pronounced deeper means highest possible aggression with intent to gain, kill, and pronounced higher means highest possible sorrow, pain caused by severe illness or loss of someone, something. So gaining, loosing and presenting = is, it is, here it is. Shout ej = e + j = e + ja = it is + me
s - sound of sizzling, heat, sun. The sound of crickets and grasshoppers and flying insects of the summer. The sound of a summer day.
ga - the sound made by sentry ravens which are dispatched around the flock when it lands on the ground, means danger coming. Also all big flocking birds of Europe, produce a sound like "ga". So the sound became sound used to mean up, and to mean "there it is"...
g - sound of pointing, direction but also of swallowing from up down into the throat.
a - the sound of high levels of agitation, aggression, rising tension, warning. means up. things that are up, that grow.


So des and dex literally mean where sun goes...Does this kind of Etymology exist in any other language? If you find one please post it here. Does it exist in Irish?


How is it possible that we have these pre Christian customs, like sun dance and may bush only in Irish lands and south Slavic lands? If someone has any information about these customs from any other part of Europe, please let me know.

According to 17th century historian Geoffrey Keating, there was a great gathering at the hill of Uisneach each Beltane in medieval Ireland, where a sacrifice was made to a god named Beil. Keating wrote that two bonfires would be lit in every district of Ireland, and cattle would be driven between them to protect them from disease.[8] There is no reference to such a gathering in the annals, but the medieval Dindsenchas includes a tale of a hero lighting a holy fire on Uisneach that blazed for seven years. Ronald Hutton writes that this may "preserve a tradition of Beltane ceremonies there", but adds "Keating or his source may simply have conflated this legend with the information in Sanas Chormaic to produce a piece of pseudo-history".[2] Nevertheless, excavations at Uisneach in the 20th century found evidence of large fires and charred bones, showing it to have been ritually significant.[2][9][10]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beltane

How is it possible that Bel, Beli, (White in Slavic languages), becomes Irish god, when Bel has no meaning in Gaelic? How did you get Welsh god Beli? How did you get Belenos?

Belenos is bel + nos = white (light) + carry = bringer of light

I went into quite a bit of detail talking about the meaning of Bel, Ban meaning white, clean, beautiful here:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057082812

Who brought this to Ireland and when? Not Romans for sure. But if we follow the trail of Vinca script, we see that it goes to, among other places, Phoenicia.

Phoenicia (UK /fɨˈnɪʃə/ or US /fəˈniːʃə/;[2] from the Greek: Φοινίκη, Phoiníkē; Arabic: فينيقية‎, Finiqyah) was an ancient Semitic civilization situated on the western, coastal part of the Fertile Crescent and centered on the coastline of modern Lebanon and Tartus Governorate in Syria. All major Phoenician cities were on the coastline of the Mediterranean, some colonies reaching the Western Mediterranean. It was an enterprising maritime trading culture that spread across the Mediterranean from 1550 BC to 300 BC. The Phoenicians used the galley, a man-powered sailing vessel, and are credited with the invention of the bireme.[3] They were famed in Classical Greece and Rome as 'traders in purple', referring to their monopoly on the precious purple dye of the Murex snail, used, among other things, for royal clothing, and for their spread of the alphabet (or abjad), from which almost all modern phonetic alphabets are derived.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenicia

Phoenician alphabet is a descendant of a Vinca script. The capital city of Phoenicia was Tyre. Tyre is also the legendary birthplace of Europa and Elissa (Dido). The name of the city means "rock"[3] after the rocky formation on which the town was originally built. The adjective for Tyre is Tyrian, and the inhabitants are Tyrians.
Tyre originally consisted of two distinct urban centers, Tyre itself, which was on an island just off shore, and the associated settlement of Ushu on the adjacent mainland. Alexander the Great connected the island to the mainland coast by constructing a causeway during his siege of the city,[7] demolishing the old city to reuse its cut stone.[8]
The original island city had two harbors, one on the south side and the other on the north side of the island. It was these two harbors that enabled Tyre to gain the maritime prominence that it did; the harbor on the north side of the island was, in fact, one of the best harbors on the eastern end of the Mediterranean. The harbor on the south side has silted over, but the harbor on the north side (see Tyre harbor photo to the right) is still in use.[9]
In ancient times, the island city of Tyre was heavily fortified (with defensive walls 150 feet (46 m) high[10]) and the mainland settlement, originally called Ushu (later called Palaetyrus, meaning "Old Tyre," by the Greeks) was actually more like a line of suburbs than any one city and was used primarily as a source of water and timber for the main island city.[11] Josephus records that the two fought against each other on occasion,[12] although most of the time they supported one another because they both benefited from the island city's wealth from maritime trade and the mainland area's source of timber, water and burial grounds.
Tyre was founded around 2750 BC according to Herodotus and was originally built as a walled city upon the mainland.[13] Its name appears on monuments as early as 1300 BC. Philo of Byblos (in Eusebius) quotes the antiquarian authority Sanchuniathon as stating that it was first occupied by Hypsuranius. Sanchuniathon's work is said to be dedicated to "Abibalus king of Berytus"—possibly the Abibaal who was king of Tyre.[14]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyre_(Lebanon)

What is the word for land in Irish? It is tír, the only exact match to Tyra. If we look at word terra, meaning land in Latin we find this:

terra - land, earth, ground, the world

From Proto-Indo-European *ters- (“dry”). Cognates include Old Irish (and Irish) tír, Ancient Greek τέρσομαι (tersomai), Sanskrit तृष्यति (tṛṣyati) and Old English þurst (English thirst).

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/terra#Latin

In my Vinca thread, I already talked about ancient words for land Era and Gaea:


Where does the name Gaea come from?


This is what Eumelus of Corinth, Titanomachia Frag 1 (from Plotius) (trans. Evelyn-White) (Greek Epic C8th B.C.) says about Gaea:

"The Epic Cycle begins with the fabled union of Ouranos (Sky) and Ge (Earth), by which they make three Hekatontacheiroi (Hundred-handed) sons and three Kyklopes to be born to him."

http://www.theoi.com/Protogenos/Gaia.html

In Irish we have this word:

cé - the earth, used only in the phrase an cruinne cé, the (round) earth, Irish, Early Irish cé, for bith ché, on this earth. The cé is supposed to be for "this", from the pronomial kei, Greek @Gkei@nnos, he, Latin ce, cis, English he. The root kei, go, move (Latin cio, Greek @Gkí;w), has also been suggested.

cè - give?
cè - spouse (Carm.), Irish cé:

http://www.ceantar.org/Dicts/MB2/mb07.html#cè;;

"open e" (è) pronounced like e in set.
"close e" (é) pronounced like e in the

In Serbian both sounds are pronounced in the same way like long e.


So the word cé, ché, kei (pronounces ke, kge) is an archaic word which means earth. This word also means to give, or what gives, and a spouse which is the root of a modern Irish word céile (spouse). These are all epithets of Goddess Gaea, mother earth, a spouse of the father sky who gives us everything that we need.

The modern Irish Éire (pronounced era) evolved from the Old Irish word Ériu, which was the name of a Gaelic goddess. Ériu is generally believed to have been the matron goddess of Ireland, a goddess of sovereignty, or simply a goddess of the land.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89ire

So Era is the same as Gea the "mother earth" which later became "mother Ireland" in Ireland or "mother Russia" in Russia. But the original Era was old Vinca situated on the territory of Serbia. People from western Serbia still call each other "Era" and are known to others in Serbia as "Ere". Era is a common personal name as well. This is the same area where we find Mountain and river Tara. There is also a word "erich" in an obscure dialect recorded in northern serbia in 19th century which means god and sky. You can go here to read more:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=84933278&postcount=59

Tera has complete etymology in Serbian: tera = t + e + ra = solid + is + land, fertile, food, life. This etymology is derived from the base sounds of Serbian, the natural sounds, which were used to build first words.

t - the sound of hitting the ground or a wood with your foot or hand. the sound of a solid object.
e - the meaning is "is, it is, here it is". i believe that it is a natural sound of presenting something to someone. Pronounced deeper means highest possible aggression with intent to gain, kill, and pronounced higher means highest possible sorrow, pain caused by severe illness or loss of someone, something. So gaining, loosing and presenting = is, it is, here it is. Shout ej = e + j = e + ja = it is + me
ra - composite word. basic meaning is the product of cutting.
r - sound of scraping, like when stone tool is used for cutting.
a - the sound of high levels of agitation, agresion, rising tension, warning. means up. things that are up, that grow.

So we can see that era = e + ra means is giver of life, food which exactly the same meaning as gaea. Gaea also has full etymology in Serbian derived from the base sounds of Serbian, the natural sounds:

gea = g + e + a = swallow, food + is + grow

g - the sound of swallowing from up down into the throat, also of pointing, direction in general
e - the meaning is "is, it is, here it is". i believe that it is a natural sound of presenting something to someone. Pronounced deeper means highest possible aggression with intent to gain, kill, and pronounced higher means highest possible sorrow, pain caused by severe illness or loss of someone, something. So gaining, loosing and presenting = is, it is, here it is. Shout ej = e + j = e + ja = it is + me
a - the sound of high levels of agitation, aggression, rising tension, warning. means up. things that are up, that grow.

So we can see that gea means giver of life, food as well.


Phoenician traded all along the Atlantic coast going to Baltic for Amber. Ireland was an important trade post, and particularly Galway. There are numerous claims from old antiquarians that Phoenicians were in Ireland. The Phoenicians established commercial outposts throughout the Mediterranean, the most strategically important being Carthage in North Africa, directly across the narrow straits. Ancient Gaelic mythologies attribute a Phoenician/Scythian influx to Ireland by a leader called Fenius Farsa.

Spanish historians add their testimony, and claim the Phoenicians as their principal colonizers. The Hispania Illustrata,a rare and valuable work, on which no less than sixty writers were engaged, fixes the date of the colonization of Spain by the Phoenicians at 764 A.C. De Bellegarde says: "The first of whom mention is made in history is Hercules, the Phoenician, by some called Melchant." It is alleged that he lived in the time of Moses, and that he retired into Spain when the Israelites entered the land of promise. This will be consistent with old accounts, if faith can be placed in the inscription of two columns, which were found in the province of Tingitane, at the time of the historian Procopius.[5] A Portuguese historian, Emanuel de Faria y Sousa, mentions the sailing of Gatelus from Egypt, with his whole family, and names his two sons, Iberus and Himerus, the first of whom, he says, "some will have to have sailed into Ireland, and given the name Hibernia to it."

Indeed, so strong has been the concurrent testimony of a Phoenician colonization of Ireland from Spain, and this by independent authorities, who could not have had access to our bardic histories, and who had no motive, even had they known of their existence, to write in confirmation of them, that those who have maintained the theory of a Gaulish colonization of Ireland, have been obliged to make Spain the point of embarkation.

In the work Barber Project, there are claims that Phoenician cultural traces were found in eastern USA, the same place where substantial Indian R1 population was found. The work also claims that Phoenicians just continued using the ancient trans Atlantic trade route used by early Copper producers to transport copper from rich pure copper mines around great lakes to Europe. We know that huge amounts of copper were mined and smelted in the great lakes area, but very little of it was found in America. Where did the rest go? We know that megalithic civilization flourished in great lakes area identical to contemporary megalithic civilization from Europe. Who built it? We now know that high concentration of R1a was found in Indian population in the same area. We now know it was Vincans who discover copper and who probably established mining and trading network all over the reachable world. But if you want to sail to north west America from Europe, you will definitely stop in Ireland, particularly because Ireland had it's own rich copper deposits. Could it have been that this is how some of the common Irish Serbian language arrived to Ireland? With first Vinca metal workers? You can find brief discussion on Neolithic European Americans here, as well as the link to Berber Project work:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=87872768&postcount=12

So did Phoenicians come to Ireland and brought their god Baal, Bel, Beli, White

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baal


But maybe there were contacts during Roman times and post Roman times with central Europeans as well as i talked about on Vinca thread.

Who was Ailill mac Máta the the king of the Connachta and the husband of queen Medb in the Ulster Cycle of Irish mythology, who ruled from Cruachan (Rathcroghan in County Roscommon)?

The sagas explain mac Máta as a matronymic: his mother is Máta Muirisc, daughter of Mága, of the Fir Ol nÉcmacht, a tribal grouping of Connacht, through whom he claimed the throne of the Connachta. His father is Rus Ruad, king of the Laigin, whose other sons include Cairbre Nia Fer, king of Tara, Find Fili, who succeeded him as king of the Laigin, and in some texts Cathbad, chief druid of Conchobar mac Nessa of the Ulaid.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ailill_mac_M%C3%A1ta

So we have someone from the clan of Mata, whose father was called Rus Ruad, who was the king of Laigin. Remember all i wrote about Laigin and their link to central Europe?

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=84448704&postcount=17

The father of Ailill mac Mata was called Rus Ruad? Rus means fair reddish, coppery, Ruad means dark reddish, bloody. Strange name don't you think? Is this related to copper people? Or much later people of Mata, like for instance SarMata, Sarmatians.

sar - the best
saor - free

Sar means the best, the elite. It is the same word that means imperial, kingly, royal (zar, tsar, car). Were Sarmatae the elite of Matae? Were they the Royal Scythians? Russians and other eastern Slavs claim direct descent from them.

But word sar, ser also means protector, the guard. Were sarmatae the protectors of mata, mother land...

The Sarmatians (Latin: Sarmatæ or Sauromatæ, Greek: Σαρμάται, Σαυρομάται) ...Their territory, which was known as Sarmatia to Greco-Roman ethnographers, corresponded to the western part of greater Scythia (mostly modern Ukraine and Southern Russia, also to a smaller extent north eastern Balkans around Moldova). At their greatest reported extent, around 100 BC, these tribes ranged from the Vistula River to the mouth of the Danube and eastward to the Volga, bordering the shores of the Black and Caspian seas as well as the Caucasus to the south.[3]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarmatians



Did some of these Ser Mata Rus, protectors, rulers, soldiers of mother Russia find their way into Ireland? And if they did when did they do it? Before or after Romans? There is awful lot of Scythian like art and cultural traits in northern parts of Ireland. Irish annals talk about Scythians settling in Ireland. How did they get there and when? And are these holy warriors, the protectors of the land or Rus, Russia, Ras, Rascia (the old name of Serbia) the same military elite we see deified on the frescoes of Serbian monasteries?

Anyway, enough from me for this week. Talk soon.

randomperson12

i sday most of these celtic countries where flattened by the romans when they extended over towards asia

Ipso

I'd take any talk of links to Scythia with a massive grain of salt. Its just a way to connect to the bible as Noah's via grand son Japheth.
http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/originstories.shtml

dublinviking

I'd take any talk of links to Scythia with a massive grain of salt. Its just a way to connect to the bible as Noah's via grand son Japheth.

I don't say these things based on Irish annals. I say that Irish annals say that there was settlement from Scythia because archaeological and ethnological data prove it. When I say Scythians, I include here Sarmatians who settle in large numbers in England and Wales, during and after Roman invasions of Britain. South Baltic, Pomerania, Fomoria, was a Slavic (Scythian, Sarmatian, Serbian) land at that time...I believe that there was a significant presence of Scythians in the north of the country in Early medieval time. I will talk about it soon. It is related with the snake and dragon worship. Both animals, which are sacred to Serbs and Scythians are demonized almost everywhere else in Europe....Irish tradition, as far as I could find, has extremely negative attitude towards both snakes and Dragons. So did the other "Celts" (or should we say Gaels). So who were the snakes and dragons (piasts) who Patrick and his Fenians drove out of Ireland?

Ipso

Snakes were a symbol for paganism.

dublinviking

Ipso

Snakes were a symbol for paganism.

What does this mean? Why is the snake the symbol of paganism? Which paganism? There was no god called "Pagan" whose symbol was snake. What religion did Irish have before Patrick? That is still unclear. Don't just throw these kind of remarks without explanation, because they are meaningless. Do you know where word Pagan, meaning "not (Judeo-)Christian" comes from? This is what wiktionary tells us:

Recorded in English since c1375. From Latin pāgānus (“rural, rustic”), later "civilian". The meaning "not (Judeo-)Christian" arose in Vulgar Latin, probably from the 4th century.[1] It is unclear whether this usage is derived primarily from the "rustic" or from the "civilian" meaning, which in Roman army jargon meant 'clumsy'. As a self-designation of neopagans attested since 1990.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/pagan

At the time when the term arose with a meaning "not (Judeo-)Christian", most people who "(Judeo-)Christians" met in the countryside (peasants) believed in "bog", "baga", "boga", "buga" the old agricultural good of Europe Dabog, Crom Dubh. Look up Sanskrit bhaga, a term for "lord, patron", but also for "wealth, prosperity".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhaga

So while town people, the ruling class prayed to Christ, outside of the city walls peasants prayed to boga, baga, buga, bhaga, so they were called bogani, bagani, bugani. In the Balkans where b changed to p we still use Pagan and Pogan. Pogan also means filthy, dirty, peasant...In England Bugan turned to bogeyman, the old god buga, boga who became devil...

A bogeyman (also spelled bogieman, or boogeyman) is a mythical creature in many cultures used by adults to frighten children into compliant behaviour.

The word bogey is derived from the Middle English bogge/bugge (also the origin of the word bug), and so is generally thought to be a cognate of the German bögge, böggel-mann (English "Bogeyman"). The word could also be linked to many similar words in other European languages: bogle (Scots), boeman (Dutch), Butzemann (German), busemann (Norwegian), bøhmand (Danish), bòcan, púca, pooka or pookha (Irish), pwca, bwga or bwgan (Welsh), puki (Old Norse), pixie or piskie (Cornish), puck (English), lidérc or mumus (Hungarian), bogu (Slavonic), buka (Russian, бука), bauk (Serbian), baubas (Lithuanian), baubau (Romanian), babau (Italian), bida (Polish), papão or sarronco (Portuguese), torbalan (Bulgarian), Μπαμπούλας (Greek).[1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bogeyman

See what happens to old gods when "(Judeo-)Christians" take over? Your Dia Baal (Baal god, Beli god, White god) becomes Diabaal devil....

In the Balkans in the early medieval times, there even used to be a country called Pagania, the country of Pagans, Bagans, people who still prayed to Baga, Bog:

The Narentines (Greek: (Ν)αρεντάνοι - (N)arentanoi, Croatian: Neretvani, Serbian: Neretljani/Неретљани, Italian: Narentani, Narentini) was an ethnonym of a South Slavic tribe that occupied an area of southern Dalmatia west of the river Neretva or "Narenta". They were known for their piracy, so they are today known as the Neretva pirates. Some sources referred to their realm as Pagania (Паганија, Paganija) because they were pagan. The tribe ceased to be recognized as standalone after their Christianization in the 9th century, and particularly after the Venetian crackdown at the turn of the 10th century.

De Administrando Imperio by Byzantine emperor Constantine VII Porphyrogenitus (r. 913–959), says that "Pagani are descended from the unbaptized Serbs" and that "The Pagani are so called because they did not accept baptism at the time when all the Serbs were baptized."[3]
It has been suggested that the label of "pirates" was applied by the victorious Venetians following the Battle at Cape Mika.[4]
The region was also, considerably later, referred to as a part of Red Croatia,[5] in the Chronicle of the Priest of Duklja written in 1298-1300 by a Catholic monk.[6][7][8]
A strange republic of Servian pirates arose at the mouth of the Narenta. In the 10th century description of Dalmatia by Constantine Porphyrogenitus (De Administrando Imperio, 29-37), this region is called Pagania, from the fact that its inhabitants had only accepted Christianity about 890, or 250 years later than the other Slavs. These Pagani, or Narentani (Narentines), utterly defeated a Venetian fleet despatched against them in 887, and for more than a century exacted tribute from Venice itself. In 998 they were finally crushed by the doge Pietro Orseolo II., who assumed the title duke of Dalmatia, though without prejudice to Byzantine suzerainty.

— Encyclopedia Britannica, 1911[9]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pagania

And Serbs consider the snake (zmija) and dragon (zmaj, male zmija) holy animals. So bogan, bagans also worshiped snakes and dragons. Can you show me any evidence that Irish or any other "Celts" worshiped (respected, venerated, not hated) snakes? Then you can say that snake is symbol of Irish Paganism.

dublinviking

I have been researching the origin of the language for past few years, through the comparative analysis of the old European cultures and Languages, particularly South Slavic (Serbian) and Irish. I have concluded that the original language was based on natural sound which people either heard around them or were able to make themselves. The main carriers of information are individual sounds, vowels and consonants. Syllables are already carriers of complex combined information. Among the sounds the vowels are carriers of emotional information, and consonants are carriers of factual information. Knowing the meaning of sounds and syllables you can split words into their original building blocks and get true etymologies.

Analyzing Serbian and Irish language, i was able to conclude that this original language is still preserved and can be reconstructed fairly easily.

Analyzing Vinca script I was able to confirm that the the meaning of these sounds is reflected in the letter of the oldest human Alphabet.

I am sending you here the vowel classification based on my research. Please let me know what you think.

o - Neutral emotion. Used in pointing at objects that are not threatening or at people or animals under our control. Also used for ordering direction of movement. Gave rise to letter o from shape of the our mouth when we say o. Sound "ooooo" when we see something. In Serbian root sound for o (about, around), ko (who, like), oko (eye)...Root sound of word "go" meaning neutral object and also an order to someone or something to move in horizontal direction...

u - Raised emotional state, desire, want if positive, pain, discomfort if negative. Used to describe penetrating movement and actions as well position of something inside of something else. Used to describe emotion of want, desire, greed, lust. sound "uuuuuuuuu" when we admire something that we want for ourselves. Gave rise to letter u,y. The shape of valeys (uvala in Serbian) and other holes including our mouth. Shape of female pubic area (Y) and vagina (U) as well as male organ used to penetrate into vagina (U). Serbian word for in (u), uvo (ear), usta (mouth), both things where things go into our body...Root sound for word "gu" meaning her, female and for pointing downword.

a - The sound of high levels of agitation, aggression, rising tension, warning. Used to describe emotion of aggression inspired by fear, defensive aggression. If positive it describes assertion, bravery, fearlessness. If negative it describes dismay, panic, fear. Used for pointing upwards, and at distance, at things, people animals we fear, like god or enemies or wild beasts. Because it describes raising emotions and things which are more powerful then us, above us, it represents up, growth, sky. Gave rise to letter A from a point of a spear, aroused penis head, pointing upwards, mountain peaks. Sound "aaaa" when we figure something out. Shout "aaaaaaaa!" when we are trying to scare something the we can not control and we can't just kill. Sound "aaaaaaaaa!" when we are running scared from that same thing, after our fake attack didn't scare it. Serbian word "na" (meaning on up) as opposed "un" (in down). Root sound for word "ga" meaning him, male.

e - The meaning is "is, it is, here it is". A natural sound of presenting something to someone. short sound "e" when you give something to someone. Serbian word "evo, eve, eto ete" meaning there you go. Pronounced deeper, e means highest possible aggression with intent to gain, kill, and pronounced higher means highest possible sorrow, pain caused by severe illness which looks as if it is going to kill us, or by loss of someone very precious, like a member of a family or something very precious like a home. So gaining, loosing and presenting = is, it is, here it is. Shout ej = e + j = e + ja = it is + me. Sound of growling, showing your teeth before immanent attack. Gave rise to letter E ш, from the shape of bared teeth. Root sound for Serbian words "ge, ke, gde, de" meaning where is it (what we want)?

i - Highest possible level of emotion. Hysteria, utter devastation, loosing your mind, ecstasy. Used to express extreme emotional states usually group emotional states, where emotions of each individual feed the group emotional flame. Like during funerals, processions, religious celebrations, births. Connected with death and birth, continuation. Used to release the worst emotions and to allow us to continue with our life. Word "i" means "and, continue" in Serbian. Gave rise to letter I from a post, mark, stake, totem pole, around which ceremonies are held. Sound of sqeeeeling, waiiiiiiling at funerals, but also the sound of the scream of a mother giving birth, which is a mixture of a and i...root sound for word "gi" meaning them, group, family.


This is the base of Serbian language, sounds expressing emotions. These sounds are then mixed with consonants to create words carrying meaning. But hidden under a meaning we still have emotions, carried through these five vowels. We can see how emotionally tainted the language is from just these words used for pointing (looking at) in the southern dialect of Serbian:

go - neutral, child, domestic animal, something we control
gu - female, woman, desire, things we want
ga - male, man, aggression cause by fear, things we don't control
ge, ke, gde, de - where is the thing we want. give it to us.
gi - group, group emotions, family, cooperation, sacrifice,

The gradation of emotion carried by consonants is:

increase of emotional charge: ouaei
decrese of emotional charge: ieauo

We can see this clearly from the exclamation sounds used by people every day:

The following are active sounds, used while the situation is happening, to describe our emotions triggered by the world around us:

ooo - o there it is, o I see (acknowledgment)
uuu - u this is great (i want it)
aaa - a! you scared me, aaa there it is, aaa so that's the secret (surprise, scary or nice)
eee - e come on, e i don't have it (possession, threat)
iii - hysteria, uncontrollable fear or happiness

These are different laughs carrying different emotional message:

hohoho - Santa Clause, good natured, laughing together
huhuhu - notty, mischievous
hahaha - laughing without caring what people think, laughing at people
hehehe - sinister, dangerous, conspiratorial, mean
hihihi - just before you pee in your pants, when something is fall on the ground funny or when someone is tickling you, sniggering in a group behind someone's back

The following are passive sounds, used to describe the aftermath of a situation, and used to release accumulated emotions:

hoooo - mild frustration with small problem, forward looking
huuuu - lots of problems, hard work, but still not giving up, forward looking
haaaa - too many problems, giving up, present
eh - remembering something that failed recently and you wish it didn't, feeling sorry for yourself. recent past
ih - remembering something that failed long time ago. feeling bitter. distant past

This ability of vowels to carry and remove emotion is used in healing sounds techniques in China and India.

aoum - the sacred sound of Buddhism. A - outside, O surface of the body, U inside of the body, M core. M is the only sound that can be made with your mouth closed. This is why it is a core sound of words that mean me, my, myself. So the above mantra brings our focus from outside into our core, (m)ind by using emotional discharge through descending vowels.

It is also used in everyday speech:

halo = ao = reduce tension, friendly
zdravo = ao = reduce tension, friendly
ciao = ao = reduce tension, friendly

Sound of pain "iao" reduses stress.

iiiha - calming the horse down

English "Hi" actually means Hi, hysterical, the opposite of calming.

Engilsh "How do you do" expresses our formality and business like relationship. I am here on business, because i want something from you and we are equal...

Serbian greeting "gde si ti!" expresses happiness to find someone, to form a group. E find, I group, emotions rising. The old south Serbian version is even more descriptive: "gu de si ti" = in where you are = uei = in, lost, buried, invisible + looking, wanting + seeing, found, exist + together, group, release of fear



Slavic battle cry Ura - ua - arousing emotions to the point of aggression
Japanese battle cry Bansai - ai - arousing emotions to the point passed aggression, to the point of sacrifice
kiiiil hiiim - group hysteria, mob hysteria

It is interesting to see how different culture view themselves differently:

Slavic Ja = Ia = god, group, me, submission to group, god
English I = aI = me, god, group, domination over group, god
German Ich = I = domination of the group, no me
Japanese Watashi, I = ai = me, group, god, domination over group, god, but also the opposite, complete submission to group, god
Irish me = e = internalized, hidden aggression
French je = ie = group aggression
Latin, Greek ego = eo = aggression, both personal and group, objects, materialism


Just by saying "I" in your own language you show what your epigenetic emotional charge is...


There has been a lot of research done in this field as i discovered today. It seems that i am on the right track here...They already use vowels to automatically detect emotions in speech analysis engines...

Recently, automatic emotion recognition from speech has achieved growing interest within the human-machine interaction research community. Most part of emotion recognition methods use context independent frame-level analysis or turn-level analysis. In this article, we introduce context dependent vowel level analysis applied for emotion classification. An average first formant value extracted on vowel level has been used as unidimensional acoustic feature vector. The Neyman-Pearson criterion has been used for classification purpose. Our classifier is able to detect high-arousal emotions with small error rates. Within our research we proved that the smallest emotional unit should be the vowel instead of the word. We find out that using vowel level analysis can be an important issue during developing a robust emotion classifier. Also, our research can be useful for developing robust affective speech recognition methods and high quality emotional speech synthesis systems.

http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/login.jsp?tp=&arnumber=6012003&url=http%3A%2F%2Fieeexplore.ieee.org%2Fxpls%2Fabs_all.jsp%3Farnumber%3D6012003

I am curious what you think about all of this.

slowburner

You might not be aware of this Boards.ie forum
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=848
It might be worthwhile posting some of your etymological material there too.
We used to have an authority on matters of this kind but sadly, he has taken a break from Boards to write a book.

dubhthach

Ipso wrote: »

I think R1b-p312 and it's subgroups correlate better with its spread in Western Europe.

I would go further to P312 parent R1b-L11. This is the "parent" of two major subclades namely P312 and U106. With P312 showing highest distrubition in areas traditionally either Italic or Celtic speaking and U106 showing highest levels in the Germanic world.

A simplified map that Dr. Michael Hammer presented at the FTDNA conference late last year:



Of course there is one clade of P312 that is associated with Scandinavia (namely L238).

In case of Ireland the dominant clade of P312 is marked by SNP L21, with DF27 coming distant second. It's the reverse in Iberia in comparison.

dublinviking

So what is the estimated entry date for Arbins into Europe?

dubhthach

dublinviking wrote: »

So what is the estimated entry date for Arbins into Europe?

Arbins? now there's a makey-up term from Klyosov.

The oldest R1b known from Europe is Bell Beaker and dated to approx 2600-2500 BC from Germany. Unfortunately they only tested it for M269 and U106 (which it was - for). So we don't know if they were P312+ or even L11+.

dublinviking

Arbins? now there's a makey-up term from Klyosov.

It is as good as term Arians. Arians (RIa) Arbins (RIb). I think it should have been Aribins...:)

So how do we know they came from Asia minor over Balkans and not from central Asia via Black Sea steppe, which is much more logical route if the oldest Arbins are found at the edge of the European Steppe, and if they came from Asia?

Is it also not possible, that Arbins entered Europe from the North Western Atlantic, via Ireland and Britain, to Germanic lands of lowlands and Frisland?

If this is diagram of the spreading of the Bell beaker culture:



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaker_culture

Why and how do you draw the diagram you posted earlier, showing the entry point into Europe to be the Balkans? Is this based on some clairvoyant knowledge or wish, rather then facts? The spreading of Bell beakers from North Africa, West of Europe, then to the north west of Europe and finally into Central and Eastern Europe seems much more likely.

Can you please explain this discrepancy between the archaeological, genetic, linguistic data, which all show concentration of Arbin genes, languages and culture diminishing from west to east, and your map which shows that they entered Europe from the Balkans? Wouldn't have they left some trace from Bosforus to Germany?

dubhthach

The Diagram was created by Dr. Michael Hammer who used it in his presentation:

Mike Hammer is FTDNA's Chief Scientist, and member of the Scientific Advisory Board.
A Biotechnology Research Scientist at the University of Arizona with appointments in the Department of Anthropology and the Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology, as well as Director of the Genomic Analysis and Technology Core facility, Dr. Hammer received his PhD in Genetics from the University of California at Berkeley and was a post-doctoral fellow at Princeton and Harvard Universities. He co-authored the first paper showing that present-day Cohanim are descended from a single male ancestor.

It's based on plenty of studies showing the distrubition of subclades of R1b-M269. Such as: Busby (2011)

Let alone the fact that FTDNA are the official lab used by the National Geographic for the Genographic project.

The term Aryan is specifically derived from Sanskrit: आर्य (ā́rya). This word is a cognate to the Irish Aire. They both derive from Proto-Indo European: *h₄eryós

As far as I know "Arbin" is a made-up term with no connection to Proto-Indo-European.

The highest diversity of subclades of R1b is in the east. As you go westward the diversity drops off the cliff. However you see a massive increase in raw numbers. So for example 70%+ of Irish men are specifically R1b-L21 (nearly all belonging to superclade DF13), which is generally dated as been 3,500-4,000 years old.

Nearly all Western European R1b belongs to specific subclades of R1b-M269. Specifically: L11. The descent of which is mapped
M269 -> L23 -> L51 -> L11

Using data such as from Busby it's possible to map the distrubition of specific subclades across Eurasia. Regarding migration path I'm not sure I agree with Dr. Hammer's out of Anatolia. Of course for the purposes of his presentation he may have been just using the "South-East" as general source. What's evident is that highest diversity of M269 is the Armenian Plateau and general wider Caucasian area.

The question then is did subclades of it expanded via Anatolia or "circumnavigated" the Black Sea using the Pontic Steppe. One theory on this been that you then saw a spilt near the mouth of Danube with one group heading up Danuabe and other entering Western Anatolia from the Balkans.

Ipso

Doesn't he include Picts as Arbins?

dublinviking

The term Aryan is specifically derived from Sanskrit: आर्य (ā́rya). This word is a cognate to the Irish Aire. They both derive from Proto-Indo European: *h₄eryós. As far as I know "Arbin" is a made-up term with no connection to Proto-Indo-European....As far as I know "Arbin" is a made-up term with no connection to Proto-Indo-European...

If you didn't get it from the smiley face, am joking. I think you should try to see the funny and poetic side of all this.
I know that Arian is ancient term.
But don't you think that it is a kind of poetic Justice to discover that Arians are RIa people? The old untermensch of the wanna be Arians from Germany and England who turned out to be non Arians...
Isn't it funny that Slavs (R1a) the "Barbarians who came to Europe from the steppe and destroyed our European cultured paradise", turned out to be the original Europeans?
And the Cultured western Europeans turned out to be the barbarians who burst into Europe looking for heads for their spears? Not that R1b people did that. I will explain further down.
Isn't it even funnier that Serbs, from the land that Germans, once they cleared it from Serbs, wanted to call Eugenia, turned out to be genetic descendants of one of the oldest European genetic groups? And probable descendants of Vinca people, the first European civilization. And to know that Germans wanted to exterminate Serbians because they were barbaric race which never contributed anything to the European culture (with approval from the British, and particularly Churchil who though the same)...

I find all this really funny. I don't care about who is who. I never did my genetic test. I have no idea what genetic type anyone i know is. And it doesn't matter. I am glad that Serbia, which was always welcoming to everyone, is the most genetically mixed place in Europe. The more the merrier. But it seems that people get really angry when their preconceptions get challenged by facts.

I don't actually care very much for bold letters and titles. I care about data. And data says no traces of Bell Beaker people in the Balkans. And I can tell you why. Look at the geography of the Balkans. Lots of rivers, lots of mountains, lots of bad people with lots of weapons. Very bad for people on horses and later chariots. This is why they all stayed east and north of Carpatian mountains and Danube. This is why old Balkan cultures survived until today. This is why you have an island of I2a in the sea of R1 (A and . So I really doubt that there was any Balkan rout into Europe. If Arbins came from Armenia, then they came via Black sea steppe, like Huns after them. But they could equally have come from Central Asia, via Asia minor, via north Africa to west of Europe as well as via Black Sea steppe. Maybe the original Bell beakers came via the sea. And the later waves came via the steppe with the steppe people invasions of the migration period. Not everyone had to come at the same time. The fact that the concentration is the highest in the West of Europe surely points to the fact that Arbins have been in that part of Europe the longest?

Once established in north west Europe, they could have attacked south of Europe and the Balkans. These invasions are well documented with Celtic invasion of the Balkans and Asia minor one of the ways of spreading the genes below Danube. If genes in the south east are older then the ones in the north west, this does not necessarily mean that the spreading was from south east to north west. At the time of Celtic and migration period invasions, whole clans went together, including women and children. No one stayed at home. So it is entirely possible that some clans with the oldest genes just moved south and settled in the Balkans and in Asia minor during Celtic invasions of the south eastern Europe. And maybe the oldest clans never left central Asia until the migration period and only then moved to south of Europe with Huns, Tatars and Slavs. And maybe some of them moved down to Asia minor and later entered Europe with Turks? It is also possible that a lot of R1b people came to Europe with Macedonians and Romans and settled in the Balkans, bringing old subclades with them. We can't exclude any of these migration options.

Again look at the distribution map of R1b:



How is this possible if the main body of the Arbin people came through the Balkans? And how did they enter western Europe through the wall of R1a people living above Danube all the way to Baltic?

Did Arbins prosper because they were nomads, shepherds and they survived the sudden climate changes which devastated agricultural population of Europe several times over? Do you remember what i wrote about the flood in Vinca thread:

In the book "The Secrets of the Irish Landscape" we read that according to the dendrochronological research done in Ireland on Irish bog Oaks, during the period between 2354 bc and 2345 bc the oaks completely stopped growing and showed bark changes which indicate that they were submerged in water. It seems that it started to rain and it didn't stop for 10 years. This caused complete failure and disappearance of the existing stone age culture due to crop failure. After the rain stopped we see the old culture being replaced by the beaker culture in a sharp artifact cut. Interestingly in the annals of four masters we find this:

The Age of the World, 2545. Rudhruidhe, son of Parthalon, was drowned in Loch Rudhruidhe, the lake having flowed over him; and from him the lake is called.

The Age of the World, 2546. An inundation of the sea over the land at Brena in this year, which was the seventh lake eruption that occurred in the time of Parthalon; and this is named Loch Cuan.

http://www.ucc.ie/celt/online/T100005A/

The Ussher chronology is a 17th-century chronology of the history of the world formulated from a literal reading of the Bible by James Ussher, the Archbishop of Armagh (Church of Ireland). The chronology is sometimes associated with young Earth creationism, which holds that the universe was created only a few millennia ago by God as described in the first two chapters of the Biblical book of Genesis.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ussher_chronology

The reason why i am mentioning Ussher chronology is that in his list of dates the date for the biblical flood to 2348 bc, right in the middle of the above major weather event.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/am/v1/n1/world-born-4004-bc

But the bible and the Irish are not the only ones to record this event.

In Chinese records we read that after there were 9 years of rain after 2346 bc.

Mayans talk about big floods and rain in 236o.

Something major weather wise has happened in the middle of the 3rd millennium bc. Did that wipe out the original agricultural R1a and I2 agricultural population from the north of Europe, freeing the land for the expansion of the first wave of R1b shepherds?

The same thing happened around 800 BC, when all the bog bodies were deposited across northern Europe, because of the sudden change of climate to wet and cold climate, which devastated local agricultural population again.

In Serbia, R1a, I2, R1b people have been living side by side for millenniums. R1a and I2 predominantly in valleys and agricultural flat lands working the land, and R1b in the mountains minding their flocks. There was never any animosity among them because there was no competition for resources. I believe that we had the same situation in the rest of Europe, but the balance was destroyed not by war but by climate change.

What do you think?

randomperson12

those arows from spain to france to ireland thasts why weve loads of spanish stuff in kerry including dexters cows

dublinviking

A Runic calendar (also Rune staff or Runic Almanac) is a perpetual calendar based on the 19 year long Metonic cycle of the Moon. Runic calendars were written on parchment or carved onto staves of wood, bone, or horn. The oldest one known, and the only one from the Middle Ages, is the Nyköping staff from Sweden, believed to date from the 13th century. Most of the several thousand which survive are wooden calendars dating from the 16th and the 17th centuries. During the 18th century, the Runic calendars had a renaissance, and around 1800, such calendars were made in the form of tobacco boxes in brass.
A typical Runic calendar consisted of several horizontal lines of symbols, one above the other.
Special days like solstices, equinoxes, and celebrations (including Christian holidays and feasts) were marked with additional lines of symbols.
The calendar does not rely on knowledge of the length of the tropical year or of the occurrence of leap years. It is set at the beginning of each year by observing the first full moon after the winter solstice. The first full moon also marked the date of Disting, a pagan feast and a fair day.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Runic_calendar

This is what I was talking about at the very beginning of my writing about ancient solar lunar calendars:

In mountains of Serbia, in the 20th century, peasants carried with them a year stick. It was a stick with a notch for every day and a cross for major holy days, which in Serbia are all linked to major agricultural events. Every day that was gone was cut off from the stick. Very simple way to track time. But to do this effectively, you need to know:

1. when does the year start
2. how many full moons there are in a year
3. how many days there are in a moon
4. how many full extra days there are after the end of the last full moon

Once you know this, you can make the your stick calendar.

How do you determine all the above? First you realize that there is a day and a night. And that as each night passes, moon changes. Then one night moon become full. You start marking the full moons "u štap" together with the number of nights between full moons. You realize that there is a cycle. 28 or 29 days cycle of moon changing. You start calling this period moon (mesec in Serbian). At the same time you notice that the sun is changing in a longer cycle. It gets higher over the horizon and hotter and then lower and colder. So You find a level place from where you can observe the sunrise and sunset all year round. You then use a stick, a post and stick it into the ground. Then you use a rope and another stick to mark a circle around the central post. You use the center of the circle as a static observation point. You build a circular rampart using sticks, stakes to mark the circle's edge. You observe the sunrise movement, and when it stops moving in the winter you mark the point on the rampart with a really tall stick. Or you make a gate, the sun gate. You can do that in the winter solstice. Now you have your year starting point. You connect the center of the circle with the point of the solstice by drawing a line, a time line. Then from the winter solstice starting point, you count number of days in a moon, and you mark it "u štap" in a stick. You can do this by cutting notches into a stick or by placing a stick in line along the line of time. The last "u štap", full moon before the winter solstice marker, tells you how many moons there are in a year. Then you have dead days until the winter solstice. These are the days where everyone is at the sun circle, celebrating the sun turning. These are still taboo days in Serbia. You count these days as well. You can mark the whole thing with circular or linear stakes, and later stones, so you don't forget it. Then you cut your calendar stick and everyone goes away until the end of the stick (year) when they all come back to get the new calendar.

Serbian calendar stick Raboš, Rvaš, rabuš, rovaš, rozaljka, riza. The word means cut, notch, sign (eg, as a cut on an ear of a pig marking the ownership), account, smartness, password. The word comes from Slavic noun "rov" meaning ditch, trench, a cut made in something solid, and verb "rovati" meaning to make cuts, or from verb ris, riz meaning to cut.



Slavic calendar (Raboš) from Kiev 4th century ad, reading left to right



Raboš from Croation island of Olib reading right to left. Raboš was also used for making notes of debts, stocks. They were used like primitive memory sticks.



Calendar from Plovdiv, Bulgaria



One of the characteristics of early Slavic writing systems is that they wrote using foreign letters and "cuts and notches" as first Christian missionaries noted. They also wrote and read from both left to right and right to left.

Another Raboš calendar from Bulgaria:



Does this remind anyone of ogham?

The etymology of the word ogam or ogham remains unclear and has no meaning in Gaelic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ogham

As I already said here:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=85915234&postcount=150

Ogam has clear etymology in Serbian. "Kam, Kamen" means stone in Serbian. "o" can among other things mean on, on something. "o kam" means on stone. So Ogam, Okam means on stone, writing on stones. What is interesting is that most ogam inscription represent names of people and their ancestors. Ogam stones are clearly either grave marks or tribute marks, or curse marks. In Serbian word for "read" is "čitaj" pronounced cheetay. This is a compound word composed from "čij + taj" pronounced cheeytay meaning "who(se) is this". Whose stone is this? Whose mark is this? Finding out who this is was the point of reading ogam.

cfuserkildare

Hey mate,

Just a quick question possibly related especially to the comment at the top of the page here.

How does the possible migration from eastern europe to Ireland connect with the Picts?
I ask this, basing my question on the idea commonly accepted, that the Picts are not related other european races, but closer to north africa / arab races?

Ipso

cfuserkildare wrote: »

Hey mate,

Just a quick question possibly related especially to the comment at the top of the page here.

How does the possible migration from eastern europe to Ireland connect with the Picts?
I ask this, basing my question on the idea commonly accepted, that the Picts are not related other european races, but closer to north africa / arab races?

Pict was just a name given by the Romans to the people who lived in the part of Britan they had not conquered. The name comes from the form of body painting that people beyond the wall still continued as it died out in parts of Roman Britain. They spoke a p celtic language.
A lot of the mystery toward them seems to come from their Scythian origin myth.

dublinviking

cfuserkildare

Picts, Pruteni, Cruithin have many cultural similarities with Scythians. Also the area of Pictland has High R1a haplogroup presence, which may have arrived with Vikings or Scythians before them. The tattooing was practiced by both, and the type of drowings found on pictish artifacts is very similar to tattoos found on Scythian ice bodies and on Scythian artifacts.

It is very very interesting that the Laigin tribes from Connacht are O'Haras and O'Garas, which literally means the people of the spear. It is very interesting that they are being connected to Cruithin (Pruteni) as it is now emerging that Cruithin (Pruteni) are linked to I2a haplogroup and therefore to the central Europe.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=84618024&postcount=28

Also have a look at this. The link between Ulster Irish and Cruithin and their link to South Baltic western Slavs (Serbs) through common dwelling type (lake dwellings, cranogs).

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=85296646&postcount=89

But there was another culture present in Scotland which did have links to North Africa and that is the round tower culture.

cfuserkildare

Hi Dublinviking,

I may be understanding this wrong, but the Picts were in Scotland 1000 years before the Vikings were they not?

Or do you mean the spread as it is now?

( Genetics is not my strongpoint)

dublinviking

Picts were in Scotland 1000 years before the Vikings were they not?

Not really. They overlap somewhere between 4 - 9 century ad. Look at the last link I sent you. About Irish, Viking, Pictish kingdoms in Northern Ireland and Scotland. It is quite interesting. This is the same area where we find Scythian Baba (progenitor) statues. Look at boa Island. I have pile of material on this, but got completely distracted (thank god) by Ezra's Vedic comments and ended up where i am now. I promise to get back to the whole Picts, Scythians, Cruithin soon.

cfuserkildare

Hi Dublinviking,

There is something that most people overlook in Scotland,
The country is basically cut into 3 seperate sub-cultures, even now it still manifests itself.
Highlands / Lowlands / Borders.

The 3 are pretty much independant from each other, I wonder how this relates to the above?

For example, Lowland Scots never spoke the Gaelic, Highlanders are closer to Vikings (not Geographically). Borders Scots are an entity unto themselves.

Wren A. Magreet

cfuserkildare wrote: »

Highlanders are closer to Vikings (not Geographically).

I thought highlanders are more closely related to the Gaels?

cfuserkildare

Hi Wren A. Magreet,

Yes, basically a mix between Gael and Nordic, whereas the lowlanders were of seperate origins again.

Ipso

dublinviking wrote: »

cfuserkildare

Picts, Pruteni, Cruithin have many cultural similarities with Scythians. Also the area of Pictland has High R1a haplogroup presence, which may have arrived with Vikings or Scythians before them. The tattooing was practiced by both, and the type of drowings found on pictish artifacts is very similar to tattoos found on Scythian ice bodies and on Scythian artifacts.



http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=84618024&postcount=28

Also have a look at this. The link between Ulster Irish and Cruithin and their link to South Baltic western Slavs (Serbs) through common dwelling type (lake dwellings, cranogs).

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=85296646&postcount=89

But there was another culture present in Scotland which did have links to North Africa and that is the round tower culture.

What round towers? The Brochs , that are associated with the Picts/ people beyond the reach of Rome?

Here is an article on the language.
http://www.newsnetscotland.com/index.php/arts-and-culture/scots-leid/4265-the-language-of-the-picts

Something on tribe names.
http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/celticscothighlands.shtml


What is pre pictish? People didn't arrive in what is now Scotland calling themselves Picts. The word is an exonym like Gael or Scot.
When the Romans got there they had their own Celtic tribe names for themselves.

dublinviking

Ipso

What round towers? The Brochs

Yes the Brochs

What is pre pictish? People didn't arrive in what is now Scotland calling themselves Picts. The word is an exonym like Gael or Scot.
When the Romans got there they had their own Celtic tribe names for themselves.

Of course. This is why i never call them Picts in my texts. But cfuserkildare asked me using that name and i just had to use the same name he used so we know what we are talking about.

The naming is one of the biggest problem when you try to find your way through historical documents.

Look at this:

English call Germans Germans. Serbs call Germans Nemci. Germans call themselves Deutch. But then some traveler who traveled from Belgrade to Munich asked people what they call their country and they told him Bavaria. So he wrote in his travelogue: The Bavarian people....Then someone from the east went to Saxony and later wrote "The Saxons..." and so on. And to top it all, someone somewhere wrote: "we went to Berlin and we beat the Krauts... "

1000 years later we have Germans, Nemci, Deutch, Bavarians, Saxons and Krauts all crowding up in in central Europe...

cfuserkildare

Right,

Has the theory that people came from somewhere up in the Nordic region the down to Scotland then finally to Ireland been debunked then?

Scotland was populated long before the Scythians arrived, possibly as far back as 16000 BC, but more likely 10000bc as regular occupation.

Again this is all related to sea levels being lower, allowing foot travel from most of Northern Europe to Scotland and Ireland.

The term Picts does confuse things a lot as it was a description instead of an actual racially based name. But the evidence shows that Scotland was populated long before most people think.

Ipso

Like Ireland, Scotland probably wasn't repopulated until after the ice age and most likely had a lot of input from across Doggerland which was where the North Sea now is.
The peopling of Scotland would mirror the peopling of England although
England would have more interaction from directly across the North Sea in later years. I also think the border area if Scotland had an Angle settlement in historical times.
Western Scotland and the Isles had a lot of Viking interaction, these people gave rise to the Gallowglass mercenaries who made it to Ireland in the post Norman period.
The place name Galloway means land of the foreign gael which is a reference to the vikings. The Scottish surname Lochlann means land of the lakes, referring to the vikings homelands.
Regarding Scythia, the name isn't mentioned until 700 bc and apart from the religious connections I'd say identity politics has a lot to do with it from the point of view of a land seeking independence trying to differentiate themselves from the over lords.
How do we know these Scythians of 700bc were the same people who populated the area in the more distant past (which is what this thread is about)?
They also spoke an Iranic language (regular indo european similarities to others expected) which is different to celtic.
There's a recent book by Barry Cunliffe called Britain Begins which looks at post ice age British archaeology.