How can I find out if my landlord has defaulted on his mortgage?

IsMiseKat

Ok, so this is a crazy situation: it has just come to our attention that the property management company to whom we were paying our rent has been dissolved. We are not sure how long this has been in effect, and we are furious that our unscrupulous landlord was clearly intending to hide this relevant information from us. Furthermore, when we contacted the PRTB to ask their advice on the matter, we learned that our landlord had never even registered the tenancy with them, and we have been living in the house for 2 years!!! Citizensinformation.ie just flat-out had no idea how to advise us at all. The people at Threshold told us to go through the PRTB (which is how we learned that our tenancy was unregistered)

When I confronted him and said that under the circumstances we would not be paying any further rent until he could provide proof that he is still making mortgage payments, AND could provide us with evidence that he had registered the tenancy with the PRTB (retroactively, as we have a signed lease from 2 years ago!) AND provided us with a commitment that he would FINALLY address the structural issues with the house that we were told would be resolved before or shortly after we moved in, but continue to be a problem to date. HE HAS NOT RESPONDED!!!

He has, for the most part been an absentee landlord, and we have always had to contact his brother if anything was wrong. They are the cagey-est most dishonest people you can imagine, and having done a bit of sleuthing on the internet, we have learned that they are in quite a bit of trouble with the banks and the law!!

I purchased the folio for the property from the land registry and it listed the bank that holds the deed. I contacted the bank asking for their help, and received a message back saying that THE BANK HAD DISSOLVED!!!

PLEASE, someone tell me how I can find out who the hell holds the deed to our house, or if our douchebag landlord has defaulted on payments. We would be happy to purchase the house, and are getting sick of all the game-playing and bull****.

I feel entitled to A BIT more information in order to make an informed choice for myself and my family!

What the actual ****??!!

The_Morrigan

IsMiseKat wrote: »

Ok, so this is a crazy situation: it has just come to our attention that the property management company to whom we were paying our rent has been dissolved. We are not sure how long this has been in effect, and we are furious that our unscrupulous landlord was clearly intending to hide this relevant information from us.

If the company was dissolved, how were you paying them rent? Dissolution of companies will also mean closing of all financial accounts and acting under that business name. Your landlord and the property management company are not the same entity, the landlord may not be aware that they are dissolved.

IsMiseKat wrote: »

Furthermore, when we contacted the PRTB to ask their advice on the matter, we learned that our landlord had never even registered the tenancy with them, and we have been living in the house for 2 years!!! Citizensinformation.ie just flat-out had no idea how to advise us at all. The people at Threshold told us to go through the PRTB (which is how we learned that our tenancy was unregistered)

This is a common enough problem and does not mean you cannot use the PRTB, your landlord however cannot make a complaint/claim against you as long as the tenancy is not registered.

IsMiseKat wrote: »

When I confronted him and said that under the circumstances we would not be paying any further rent until he could provide proof that he is still making mortgage payments, AND could provide us with evidence that he had registered the tenancy with the PRTB (retroactively, as we have a signed lease from 2 years ago!) AND provided us with a commitment that he would FINALLY address the structural issues with the house that we were told would be resolved before or shortly after we moved in, but continue to be a problem to date. HE HAS NOT RESPONDED!!!

You can't do that - withholding of rent is a breach of your tenant obligations.

IsMiseKat wrote: »

He has, for the most part been an absentee landlord, and we have always had to contact his brother if anything was wrong. They are the cagey-est most dishonest people you can imagine, and having done a bit of sleuthing on the internet, we have learned that they are in quite a bit of trouble with the banks and the law!!

I purchased the folio for the property from the land registry and it listed the bank that holds the deed. I contacted the bank asking for their help, and received a message back saying that THE BANK HAD DISSOLVED!!!

PLEASE, someone tell me how I can find out who the hell holds the deed to our house, or if our douchebag landlord has defaulted on payments. We would be happy to purchase the house, and are getting sick of all the game-playing and bull****.

I feel entitled to A BIT more information in order to make an informed choice for myself and my family!

What the actual ****??!!

You are not entitled to know who holds the deeds to his property, you also do not know if there is even a mortgage and you don't need to know. It is none of your business.

Your contract is with the landlord or his agent - not his bank. Noone will give you any of the information you are seeking as it is a breach of data protection legislation.

By all means if you are not happy in the house due to the structural issues you mentioned then give notice to quit and leave the premises.

djimi

First things first, whether or not the landlord has defaulted on their mortgage and whether or not the property is PRTB registered are not reasons for you to stop paying the rent. Neither of these are particularly relevant to you, nor do they directly affect your tenancy. If the bank want to repossess the house then they will start proceedings, but this will be a lengthy process and you will know about it in time. The only thing that is relevant to you is whether or not the landlord is upholding their legal obligations as a landlord.

The tenancy not being PRTB registered means absolutely nothing as far as you are concerned. You still have the full protection of the PRTB either way.

You can ask him to provide you with evidence of his mortgage payments, but its up to him whether he provides them (I wouldnt hold my breath). You are not entitled to request this information from any other source and you will not get this information from any other source.

Any issues that you have with the property, you may put in writing and request a time frame for them to be resolved. If they are not resolved then you give a deadline after which you either repair yourself and deduct from the rent, or you terminate the tenancy, citing the landlords breach of obligations.

If the structural issues are such that they would render the property to be in breach of standards for a tenancy property then you should be able to terminate the tenancy on these grounds.

Mrs W

IsMiseKat wrote: »

PLEASE, someone tell me how I can find out who the hell holds the deed to our house, or if our douchebag landlord has defaulted on payments. We would be happy to purchase the house, and are getting sick of all the game-playing and bull****.

I feel entitled to A BIT more information in order to make an informed choice for myself and my family!

What the actual ****??!!

It's not actually your house?? Who holds the deeds or if the landlord is paying his mortgage is no business of yours. He hasn't registered with the prtb but that doesn't affect your rights with them.

You're paying rent to a dissolved company and he's the douchebag?!?

Eldarion

IsMiseKat wrote: »

PLEASE, someone tell me how I can find out who the hell holds the deed to our house, or if our douchebag landlord has defaulted on payments. We would be happy to purchase the house, and are getting sick of all the game-playing and bull****.

This is none of your business. You have no entitlement to know your landlord's financial situation at all. Withholding rent on this basis(or any non-previously agreed upon basis) should do nothing but earn you an eviction notice.

There's no games here, if there is an issue that is violating the LL/tenant agreement then you can use this to break your lease and find another place to rent. You don't have any entitlement to deeds or ownership of the house whatsoever.

IsMiseKat

Also, we aren't Irish Citizens, so be a little gentle with us please. We are new immigrants and are only learning what our rights are as we go, so "Mrs W", your comment was overly snarky. Yes, actually the landlord IS a douchebag, but by all means - carry on with your victim-shaming.

The_Morrigan

IsMiseKat wrote: »

Thank you both for your prompt replies. I have been freaking out. Ok, so I can't withhold rent because it would be a breach of landlord/tenant contract, fair enough. But if he hasn't registered with the PRTB can he make a complaint against me?

No, he can't avail of the PRTB services while the tenancy is unregistered.

IsMiseKat wrote: »

As far as the rent goes, I was able to find out via solocheck.ie that the company has only JUST dissolved (within the past 5 days!) so that at least puts my mind at ease. But now I can't actually pay rent until the landlord provides alternative payment information, right? You'd think he would get back to me promptly if it meant a delay in him getting the rent, right?

Within the last five days! And you had the audacity to call your landlord a douchebag because he didn't inform you? He may not have been informed or collected his post if he is an absentee landlord. Contact him in a calm manner and ask him how the rent is to be paid now that the property management company has dissolved.

IsMiseKat wrote: »

It was very easy to find out which institution holds the mortgage - it was right in the folio I got from the land registry, so I don't think I am in violation of any data protection legislation there.

I'd love to know how you managed to contact the bank if it was dissolved though - can you enlighten me on that please?

IsMiseKat wrote: »

I understand they might not be able to tell me if he's defaulted though.

Under no circumstances will they tell you that information no maybe about it.

IsMiseKat wrote: »

Here's the crazy part though - we have not been on a lease for close to a year. We had been told that the company would contact us when it was time to renew the lease... they never did. This in and of itself was very weird, but citizens information just advised us to carry on as we had according to the terms of the previous year's lease until they got in touch. Neither our landlord nor the property management people ever contacted us, nor responded to our emails or phone calls. I asked the landlord's brother on several occasions if everything was alright, if there had been any changes, etc. I know it seems naiive, but I sort of just assumed "no news is good news" and carried on as usual. It relieves my mind very much to know that our money was not just going into a black hole somewhere, and also that the landlord mightn't have been aware that the company had dissolved. So... do I just wait around for him to get in touch with us again with updated information? I certainly don't trust him to be truthful at this point.

It's not crazy, it's quite common. You don't need to be on a written lease to be protected by tenancy legislation.

IsMiseKat wrote: »

If you aren't on a lease, and the landlord hasn't registered your tenancy, and hasn't provided updated payment details for where the money should now go... can he legally evict us? We have tried to do right in this situation at every turn, but it's gotten really weird and uncomfortable., and it's upsetting to feel we don't have representation. I'm glad to hear I can still call upon the support of teh PRTB though...

The landlord can legally evict you at any time once he adheres to the provisions of the RTA.

IsMiseKat wrote: »

We actually really love the house, and if we knew who owned it would be happy to fix it up ourselves and/or purchase it. It's the not knowing and the landlord not having the courtesy to have ANY communication with us that is upsetting.

Anyway, thanks lads.

You're not entitled to be communicated with in regards to the landlords financial matters except if a receiver is appointed in which case they will contact you directly.


You seem to be getting in quite the flap over matters that do not concern you and creating drama where there is no need. Pay your rent as normal, if that is not possible then contact the landlord telling him you tried and the rent will be available for collection or he is to provide new bank details so that you can transfer the rent to his account.

Doop

Sounds like you're getting worked up over nothing tbh. The terms and conditions of your previous lease still stand, you are on that lease I gather??

Who is this company you pay the rent to? is it a property management company? (eg. estate agents?) If so just set your rent aside each month and await instructions regarding where to deposit the rent.

As said the fact that the property isnt registered with the PRTB is the landlords problem not yours.

drquirky

Mrs W wrote: »

It's not actually your house?? Who holds the deeds or if the landlord is paying his mortgage is no business of yours. He hasn't registered with the prtb but that doesn't affect your rights with them.

You're paying rent to a dissolved company and he's the douchebag?!?

**** off. If he's not paying the mortgage, his tenants should not have to pay rent. This bull**** where a huge amount of homeowners aren't paying their mortgages has gone on too long and is symptomatic of a corrupt property owning cabal in this country.

If the landlord is taking money for rent and not paying the bank his mortgage he should be arrested for fraud and the house repossessed.

The_Morrigan

drquirky wrote: »

**** off. If he's not paying the mortgage, his tenants should not have to pay rent. This bull**** where a huge amount of homeowners aren't paying their mortgages has gone on too long and is symptomatic of a corrupt property owning cabal in this country.

If the landlord is taking money for rent and not paying the bank his mortgage he should be arrested for fraud and the house repossessed.

That tone of posting is not appreciated here - if you can't post in a civil manner please refrain from posting.

Morri

drquirky

OP- the responses you are getting so far are unfortunately emblematic of people who have been conditioned over generations to accept low level corruption in regards to property in Ireland. It is truly sad and will only end when people cop on and take a stand against it. You are aware that 100's of thousands of people in this country aren't paying their mortgages and thus far there have been ZERO consequences- this would not happen in any other civilised country.

Doop

drquirky wrote: »

**** off. If he's not paying the mortgage, his tenants should not have to pay rent. This bull**** where a huge amount of homeowners aren't paying their mortgages has gone on too long and is symptomatic of a corrupt property owning cabal in this country.

If the landlord is taking money for rent and not paying the bank his mortgage he should be arrested for fraud and the house repossessed.

All of that has nothing to do with the tenant... the tenant rents a property and pays rent as agreed. No-body here not even the tenant knows the exact position of the landlords standing with the bank and how/why should they?

3DataModem

IsMiseKat wrote: »

We are new immigrants.

...but have been renting for two years? :P

Mrs W

Of course he has to pay rent, he's here whinging about the landlords obligations and then wanting to get out of his own obligations.

The management company were obviously paid by the landlord to manage the tenancy, the whole point of that is not having to deal with tenants etc so I dont blame him for not responding to you.

For new immigrants you're picking up on the Irish quick enough

The_Morrigan

drquirky wrote: »

OP- the responses you are getting so far are unfortunately emblematic of people who have been conditioned over generations to accept low level corruption in regards to property in Ireland. It is truly sad and will only end when people cop on and take a stand against it. You are aware that 100's of thousands of people in this country aren't paying their mortgages and thus far there have been ZERO consequences- this would not happen in any other civilised country.

drquirky your posts are trolling in nature and are not addressing the questions of the OP.
This is not a thread for you to engage in soapboxing. Unless you can assist the OP do not post in this thread again.

ted1

OP you signed a lease agreeing to pay x each month. This is a legally binding contract which you must comply with.

With regards making an offer on the house, it would probably have to go on the open market.

Stop getting worked up. Pay you rent and get receipts or keep proof of payment

beauf

IsMiseKat wrote: »

...how I can find out who the hell holds the deed to our house, or if our douchebag landlord has defaulted on payments. We would be happy to purchase the house...

My emphasis. Perhaps this is why the OP is getting worked up about this?

IsMiseKat

Of everyone on here, Dr Quirky has been the most respectful and helpful towards me, and I am grateful. I don't find his answers trolling or rude at all, but it's interesting that you all would jump on him immediately for expressing even a hint of solidarity with me. Thank you Dr Quirky.

Mrs W, yeah... because no other country in the world speaks English, and it's not like you can take Irish classes here or anything *eyeroll*. We live in the Gaeltacht for God's sake, it's not like it hard to pick up on. Geez, cop on! And in fact two years IS considered short enough time to be considered "new immigrants", feel free to visit the INIS website if you need further enlightenment on this. What a wonderful person you must be in real life, you must be a joy to be around, I'm sure you're a real blessing to your friends and family, if you have any.

The_Morrigan, in answer to your question, the bank was a life-assurance company that had paired with a builder's bank in the boom. It is clearly stated in the folio. They have since dissolved their partnership, but I only found this out by contacting the insurance company, the name for which I found on the website that still exists for the dissolved partnership. What I want to know is what happens to the ownership of the house if that happens. There have been other tips and occurrences over the past year that have led us to believe the landlord no longer owns the house. I appreciate your statements about waiting until someone from receivership contacts us. The landlord was listed as a director of the property management company, so I find it hard to believe he was unaware of the company's dissolution.

This is my first time on this website, and I'm amazed by the nature of the responses to my question. To be sure, I came on here for advice, not abuse. And why are people getting butthurt over me calling my landlord a douchebag? He's a stranger to you all, as am I. Is the problem that many of you are landlords and my situation makes you uncomfortable, because you can't help but identify with a landlords' position? Are you afraid a similar situation might happen to you? The level of vitriol against me for asking a question seems really disproportionate. I am not super-familiar with Irish property law, and I reached out on here for some answers. Our situation has been frustrating for a long time, and we haven't been totally aware of what our rights are. I am trying to acquire as much information as I can so I can have a sense of having some agency amidst a lot of chaos. I think if any of you were in a similar situation, you might feel upset as well. I am not creating drama. If my landlord can't or won't step up to the task of participating in an actual landlord tenant relationship, it's an actual problem. We have three little kids, if at all possible I'd like to not have to move just because our landlord is disorganized and can't get his crap together.

Anyway, thanks to DrQuirky for your words. I agree with you 100% and appreciate your participation in the thread.

The_Morrigan

IsMiseKat wrote: »

Mrs W, yeah... because no other country in the world speaks English, and it's not like you can take Irish classes here or anything *eyeroll*. We live in the Gaeltacht for God's sake, it's not like it hard to pick up on. Geez, cop on! And in fact two years IS considered short enough time to be considered "new immigrants", feel free to visit the INIS website if you need further enlightenment on this. What a wonderful person you must be in real life, you must be a joy to be around, I'm sure you're a real blessing to your friends and family, if you have any.

IsMiseKat - do not take that tone in here please, if you can't be civil to the other forum members then please do not post in the forum.

johnnyskeleton

Maybe the landlord owns it free form any mortgage or any other encumbrances.

You're right to insist on repairs and PRTB, but I don't think you can insist on getting information about his financial situation.

Sorry if this is not the advice you want to hear.

Egan2012

That sounds like a landlord I had a few years ago.
I was renting a house going back maybe 4 to 5 years ago. It started out grand. I paid my deposit to the Landlord and I set up a debit to pay the rent on a monthly basis to his bank account. He seemed like a sound enough lad until we looked for a few things repaired in the house over the couple of years we lived there. Just stuff like the cooker packed in or washer and dryer packed in. I think the first thing to go was the cooker. I went to try and contact him and his phone was out of order. Eventually I tracked down some relatives of his in the village he lived in. He lived about 3 hours drive from where I was renting. They said they would pass on a message to him. The following week some guy landed to the door with a second hand cooker. He never spoke a word, Just dropped the cooker and left. I'd say about 12 months on I tried contacting him over something, can't remember exactly what it was about but him or they people I contacted before couldn't be found. Alarm bells start ringing.
I just left things as it was, I kept paying my rent by standing order and about 2 and a half years of living there a couple of guys came to the house looking for him. I told them I hadn't seen him in about 2 years.
Eventually the banks notified us that the landlord hasn't paid his mortgage since we moved in and he was in contact with the bank for a few months but then dissapeared. Banks reclaimed the house but they did give us the choice of staying there and keep paying rent or we could move on. We decided to move on. I asked why couldn't they stop the money in his account that I was paying rent into? I gave them the account details I was using and they checked it out. They just told me that they weren't aware of an other account he had. It turns out it was some crowd you could set up a account with online or something and when the Bank Of Ireland looked into it they found out he last withdrawl from this was in Holland somewhere. He still hasn't been found. I was shocked to be honest. At the time the house was valuing around 400 thousand on the market.

IsMiseKat

The_Morrigan, Then please pass that same exhortation on to Mrs W, as her tone was certainly less than respectful, and frankly a bit racist, implying that immigrants aren't intelligent enough to learn Irish quickly. It would be nice if you'd moderate the page with a bit more equity, even when you don't agree with their points? Let's have An Ireland of Equals, yes? Peace to the sky

Mrs W

IsMiseKat wrote: »

Mrs W, yeah... because no other country in the world speaks English, and it's not like you can take Irish classes here or anything *eyeroll*. We live in the Gaeltacht for God's sake, it's not like it hard to pick up on. Geez, cop on! And in fact two years IS considered short enough time to be considered "new immigrants", feel free to visit the INIS website if you need further enlightenment on this. What a wonderful person you must be in real life, you must be a joy to be around, I'm sure you're a real blessing to your friends and family, if you have any.

.

It was your level of Irish I questioned not your English. I also didn't mention anything about 2 years being a new immigrant so *eyeroll* cop on to yourself.

I am of course a wonderful person and not sure how insulted I am that you insinuate I might not have friends or family.

I am a landlord also, pay my mortgage, register with the prtb and generally steer clear of head wrecking self important tenants like you who can't mind your own business and have nothing better to be at than creating bull**** drama

sawdoubters

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/

The_Morrigan

IsMiseKat wrote: »

The_Morrigan, Then please pass that same exhortation on to Mrs W, as her tone was certainly less than respectful, and frankly a bit racist, implying that immigrants aren't intelligent enough to learn Irish quickly. It would be nice if you'd moderate the page with a bit more equity, even when you don't agree with their points? Let's have An Ireland of Equals, yes? Peace to the sky

I would urge you to read the charter before you continue to post in this forum.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=52883

There is a site wide rule to attack the post & not the poster. If you have an issue with a post, then report it. It is up to the moderators to deal with posters, not you.

It is also a breach of forum charter to argue with a moderators instruction on thread.

Regards,

Morri

IsMiseKat

Egan2012, Thank you SO much for sharing your experience - yes it sounds very much like what you are describing, and what I have been afraid is happening! Like you, we had set up our rent to pay by standing order each month. I suppose at this point, all we can do is wait or move on! Anyway, It is comforting to know we aren't the only ones this has happened to! And I'm so there on the Alarm Bells thing! yikes! it's really scary.

IsMiseKat

Yeah, I think we're done here.

The_Morrigan

The_Morrigan wrote: »

I would urge you to read the charter before you continue to post in this forum.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=52883

There is a site wide rule to attack the post & not the poster. If you have an issue with a post, then report it. It is up to the moderators to deal with posters, not you.

It is also a breach of forum charter to argue with a moderators instruction on thread.

Regards,

Morri

Mrs W wrote: »

It was your level of Irish I questioned not your English. I also didn't mention anything about 2 years being a new immigrant so *eyeroll* cop on to yourself.

I am of course a wonderful person and not sure how insulted I am that you insinuate I might not have friends or family.

I am a landlord also, pay my mortgage, register with the prtb and generally steer clear of head wrecking self important tenants like you who can't mind your own business and have nothing better to be at than creating bull**** drama

Mrs W I will refer you to my mod instruction above - you may want to review the forum charter.

davo10

This is a difficult thread to follow as I'm not sure the OP understands the info he has obtained but just to clarify a few points which might help us readers:

• OP how exactly do you know that the LL has not been making repayments. No bank would ever give this info to a third party.

• What effect do you believe the LL's relationship with the bank has on your tenancy?. None is the answer to that.

• Even if your original tenancy has elapsed, you have part 4 tenancy rights so you just carry on as per your original lease until you decide to leave.

• Management companies dissolve all the time and new ones are set up with new directors. These may be owners of properties in a development, or in your case the property may be part of a portfolio owned by a limited company. It really is none of your business who that company are, all you should care about is that the property is in good condition and that you pay the rent.

• I'm not sure what you mean by "folio", is this the advertisement brochure from when the house was sold or the land registry information?, if it is the latter it again is absolutely nor of your business and a little extreme that you would pay for this info. Solicitors usually check this when a property is being purchased.

• it isn't your house, why do you believe it is?, you are just a tenent, if you move on the house won't be the next tenents house either.

• if you don't pay the rent you will be in breach of your tenancy agreement (which has continued even though the original has elapsed) and you will be evicted.

All in all this is a strange and somewhat creepy thread and the advice you feel is the best for you, is without doubt the worst advice for you.

Egan2012

Mrs W wrote: »

It was your level of Irish I questioned not your English. I also didn't mention anything about 2 years being a new immigrant so *eyeroll* cop on to yourself.

I am of course a wonderful person and not sure how insulted I am that you insinuate I might not have friends or family.

I am a landlord also, pay my mortgage, register with the prtb and generally steer clear of head wrecking self important tenants like you who can't mind your own business and have nothing better to be at than creating bull**** drama

Isn't the whole point of Boards all about asking a question and getting some answers?
IsMiseKat is entititled to ask a question, stupid one or not and get some answers, stupid or not so stupid, without been run into the ground.
Mrs W, I don't know what you are getting so upset about if you have everything above board. You have just made some comments there that could be taken up as been discriminating against some people.

Femme_Fatale

IsMiseKat wrote: »

Also, we aren't Irish Citizens, so be a little gentle with us please. We are new immigrants and are only learning what our rights are as we go, so "Mrs W", your comment was overly snarky. Yes, actually the landlord IS a douchebag, but by all means - carry on with your victim-shaming.

Just because you're getting answers you don't want to read, doesn't mean there's "victim-shaming" (lol) going on.

drquirky wrote: »

**** off. If he's not paying the mortgage, his tenants should not have to pay rent.

So you're saying a person should be able to live rent-free in a property if the owner isn't paying a mortgage and that if you had a property with no mortgage you'd let people live there for nothing... correct?