Martin Fagan Interview

Bahanaman

Just wondering what people who heard it thought of Greg Allen's interview with Martin Fagan on Sunday Sport today. I thought it gave a good balanced view of how people who are caught for doping and see out their sanction are viewed. I also thought that Fagan came across as a really genuine guy who showed full remorse and accepted full responsibility for what he did. He sounded like someone who waned to do his best to make up for what he did. It might be nice to see him back in competition again?

dna_leri

I think all dopers should get a life ban, including the nice guys.

pconn062

Is there a link anywhere to an online recording of this interview?

ecoli

pconn062 wrote: »

Is there a link anywhere to an online recording of this interview?

http://www.rte.ie/radio/radioplayer/rteradioweb.html#!rii=9%3A10242284%3A71%3A19%2D01%2D2014%3A

Abourt 2.48ish in

woodchopper

dna_leri wrote: »

I think all dopers should get a life ban, including the nice guys.

I would be confident that I can get Martin under 2.10 in the marathon and possibly the Irish record if he approached me. I cant think of many coaches out there willing to take him on domestically.

pconn062

Seems fairly intent about making a comeback listening to that interview? What do we think?

groovyg

pconn062 wrote: »

Seems fairly intent about making a comeback listening to that interview? What do we think?

I doubt if he will be welcome back with open arms.

TFBubendorfer

pconn062 wrote: »

Seems fairly intent about making a comeback listening to that interview? What do we think?

What dna_leri said.

buck65

Lost any interest in him when I found out that he was a cheat and a liar. Comeback or not I certainly won't be supporting him.

career_move

pconn062 wrote: »

Seems fairly intent about making a comeback listening to that interview? What do we think?

I feel sorry for him. Depression and loneliness are really hard to deal with especially when you're in a high pressure environment and things are going badly. I'm not excusing what he did but I don't think it's black or white. He made a serious mistake/error of judgement but he's served his ban now and if he wants to run competitively let him at it. Although he sounds really happy now so you'd have to wonder if a return would be the right thing for him

morceli

Yep no point forgiving anyone anything because we are all just perfect here and never make mistakes. There more to life than running so if Fagan is in a better place mentally now I doubt he cares. I think bans should be longer but everyone deserves a second chance.

dna_leri

career_move wrote: »

I feel sorry for him. Depression and loneliness are really hard to deal with especially when you're in a high pressure environment and things are going badly. I'm not excusing what he did but I don't think it's black or white. He made a serious mistake/error of judgement but he's served his ban now and if he wants to run competitively let him at it. Although he sounds really happy now so you'd have to wonder if a return would be the right thing for him

I feel sorry for him too. From my limited dealings with him he is genuinely a nice guy who made a big mistake.

But it has to be black and white, otherwise there are all sorts of grey areas. Most dopers are under high pressure.

For most of us, if we cheated in our jobs, we would be kicked out and not given a 2nd chance (unless you are a developer in NAMA - but lets not go there).

It's a disgrace.

The rising inflection in the middle of or end of each sentence should never be tolerated.

The drugs stuff is bad too though. He may have served his ban but he should expect to face a lot of criticism or cold shoulders at every race.

tomdempsey200

out of interest

did the epo work for him at the longer distances?

cathal lombard got a big performance boost at the 10k for sure

it's well known that epo boosts performance from 1500-10,000

renato canova for instance insists that epo is ineffective at the marathon distance

and of course only 1 solitary 2-05 kenyan has ever been nabbed for epo

morceli

tomdempsey200 wrote: »

renato canova for instance insists that epo is ineffective at the marathon distance

What drug does he use then?

tomdempsey200

morceli wrote: »

What drug does he use then?

he doesn't..

his theory is that the very elite east african marathoners don't benefit from epo

Krusty_Clown

tomdempsey200 wrote: »

cathal lombard got a big performance boost at the 10k for sure

That doesn't make any sense. Any improvement at the 10k distance will contribute towards a faster marathon. Whether Fagan benefited or not is of little consequence. He broke the rules.

Whether we think he should return or not is also of little consequence, as he has served his penance in accordance to the rules and is fully entitled to resume racing.

tomdempsey200

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Any improvement at the 10k distance will contribute towards a faster marathon.

there's plenty of circumstancial evidence to show performance gain from 1500-10,000

(basically a long list of drug cheats with similar performance gains)

but actually little evidence over the marathon distance...not that i'm saying i agree with renatos view

morceli

tomdempsey200 wrote: »

he doesn't..

his theory is that the very elite east african marathoners don't benefit from epo

As far as I know there is zero research to back up his statement could be the testing isn't as good in kenya, there have been studies on the benefits of epo on distance runners, and tests carried so does he have any data to suggest other wise?

tomdempsey200

morceli wrote: »

As far as I know there is zero research to back up his statement could be the testing isn't as good in kenya, there have been studies on the benefits of epo on distance runners, and tests carried so does he have any data to suggest other wise?

wada carried out testing in kenya showing performance gain for sub-elite athletes over 3000m

there's also plenty of circumstantial evidence over shorter distances

but no great evidence to contradict renatos claims about the marathon and the very elite east africans

TFBubendorfer

tomdempsey200 wrote: »

there's plenty of circumstancial evidence to show performance gain from 1500-10,000

(basically a long list of drug cheats with similar performance gains)

but actually little evidence over the marathon distance...not that i'm saying i agree with renatos view

Google "Eddy Hellebuyck" and learn something new

tomdempsey200

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

Google "Eddy Hellebuyck" and learn something new

i should have specified more correctly the '2-03/2-04' elites as coached by renato canova and others...none of whom have tested positive afaik

i'm aware there was spanish dopers and more around the 2-06/2-07 range

presumably like eddie hellbuck they weren't spending their money on epo for nothing



there's an awful lot of fast east africans now

the quickest to get busted were kisorio over the HM..around 58minutes and he admitted to epo(+steroid)

and the 2-05 kenyan who got busted in 2012


i'm merely repeating canovas theory..not saying it's gospel or anything

woodchopper

Woodchopper would love nothing more than to coach Martin Fagan to becoming the first Irishman to win the Dublin City marathon with an International field.

TRR

woodchopper wrote: »

Woodchopper would love nothing more than to coach Martin Fagan to becoming the first Irishman to win the Dublin City marathon with an International field.

But woodie how would he contact you? Does he have a woodchopper symbol he needs to shine into the sky similar to what the Gotham city police use to contact batman. Im sure he'd love to join your stable of young athletes but geographically you guys are other side of the country. Would it not be better to have a coach with one to one contact?

woodchopper

TRR wrote: »

But woodie how would he contact you? Does he have a woodchopper symbol he needs to shine into the sky similar to what the Gotham city police use to contact batman. Im sure he'd love to join your stable of young athletes but geographically you guys are other side of the country. Would it not be better to have a coach with one to one contact?

Send me your marathon schedule for London and I will tailor it to make sure you run a pr.

TRR

woodchopper wrote: »

Send me your marathon schedule for London and I will tailor it to make sure you run a pr.

ah you're all right. I'm thinking of writing a book so want to keep my schedule top secret. Anyway, I don't know of any marathon runners you've coached!

pa4

TRR wrote: »

ah you're all right. I'm thinking of writing a book so want to keep my schedule top secret. Anyway, I don't know of any marathon runners you've coached!

So that's why you rarely update your log! Secret training!

clear thinking

Not being an expert on human nature I'm open to correction, but if a so called nice guy cheats then it must be safe to assume that the not-so-nice are much more likely to be cheating.

Life ban should follow as there is a career long benefit to cheating.

I'm pretty sceptical about most elites in world running these days, there is not enough frequent & invasive testing to trust athletes (in any & all sports).

buck65

I do seriously doubt that all the Kenyans are doping though. There are so many of them running great times consistently and some barely have access to doctors unless they win a big race and earn the dough.

Most are shy , reclusive , farmers that wouldn't go near a western doctor I'd imagine. Read the book "Running with the Kenyans" and you'd see what I mean.
They grow up running fast, it's their way out of poverty and buying a cow or a plot of land. Basically they run to survive while we do it for sport.

gerard_65

http://jumpingthegun.ie/blog/2014/1/20/iijubla3w7bdxyv1vbj116sw0b1mg4

mithril

What's the position if he runs an Olympic or WC Qualifying Time in future? Does he have to be chosen for the team or is this discretionary?
Could an athlete with a slower time be picked instead for the Irish team which would seem to leave the AAI open to legal challenge?

ecoli

Very good podcast on this:

http://jumpingthegun.ie/blog/2014/1/21/the-fagan-conundrum

speedster1993

mithril wrote: »

What's the position if he runs an Olympic or WC Qualifying Time in future? Does he have to be chosen for the team or is this discretionary?
Could an athlete with a slower time be picked instead for the Irish team which would seem to leave the AAI open to legal challenge?

If he runs a qualifier and shows form good enough to match the selection criteria, he will be picked. Anything else would indeed leave the association open to legal action.

mithril

speedster1993 wrote: »

If he runs a qualifier and shows form good enough to match the selection criteria, he will be picked. Anything else would indeed leave the association open to legal action.

I suspect that he would break down in training under the effort of getting back to the level he was at two years ago - which was not good enough anyway - so probably a moot point. Assuming he did though, there would be a huge outcry here and elsewhere in favour of the clean athlete who was denied a place in his stead.

I think the Podcast teases out the issues involved quite well.
He may be a very likeable individual and suffering from depression at the time, but that is independent from his decision to take performance enhancing substances.
You cannot make an argument to treat him more favourably than Cathal Lombard who was booed and ostracised when he attempted to return to the sport.

morceli

Cathal didn't return to the sport he gave it the two fingers and then left quicker than he returned. Had he stayed in the sport for longer and work towards making amends it may have been different. His return was a joke and something fagan said was that he needs to be ready to have the same reaction if he returns.
I do believe that cheats should be allowed rerun and compete again but should never be funded by AAi and need to conform to stricter testing ( if that's possible)

T runner

mithril wrote: »

I suspect that he would break down in training under the effort of getting back to the level he was at two years ago - which was not good enough anyway - so probably a moot point. Assuming he did though, there would be a huge outcry here and elsewhere in favour of the clean athlete who was denied a place in his stead.

I think the Podcast teases out the issues involved quite well.
He may be a very likeable individual and suffering from depression at the time, but that is independent from his decision to take performance enhancing substances.
You cannot make an argument to treat him more favourably than Cathal Lombard who was booed and ostracised when he attempted to return to the sport.

If people believe that a 2 year ban is not enough, then they should take up their position quite strongly with those that can actually have influence change it. The AAI perhaps as our local Athletics body. Bullying an individual who is legitimately competing is not on. Perhaps you believe he should be boo-ed and ostracised for taking the banned substance in the first place? But you should stick to your guns and do this as he is walking down the street, or in the supermarket. You might get arrested for harassment though. You probably wont at a sporting event but that doesn't make it right.

If you believe his depression was related to his decision to take PEDs then how can claim that it was independent of it?

People take Peds for different reasons, some are more selfish than others. Same with criminal offences. A man might steal food as the only means to feed his family. Or he might steal food even though he can afford to pay: he just wants to save/steal the money. Same crime, different motivations.

I believe those caught taking PEDS should get life. When a body makes a physical breakthrough it becomes physically and psychologically easier to repeat it, even without the Peds. That's a permanent advantage.

The rules are a 2 year ban however. Whatever reason an athlete takes PEDS they are perfectly entitled to compete after the ban is lifted.

People intending to harass should take it to the AAI or Wada.

TRR

mithril wrote: »

Lombard who was booed and ostracised when he attempted to return to the sport.

I'm being pedantic but he wasn't booed, he was actually given the silent treatment.

In my eyes both Fagan and Lombard did their time and are eligible for races. I may not totally agree with the rules that are in place but they are what they are so probably just best to get on with it. I can see how this would be a bigger issue for people who may be competing with Fagan for race wins and international vests if he decides to try his hand at national events again.

Just getting back to the difference between Lombard and Fagan, I think people have a major problem with Lomabard due to his attitude. I don't know the guy and have only been in his company once but I read in a jumpingthegun post that he is a quiet introverted character. However during his ban, he turned up and ran the first half of DCM without a number. He obviously wasn't officially entered and things like that kind of rub people up the wrong way. Similarly after his comeback win in the national xc he was asked would he go to the world xc and he said no as he wouldn't waste his time because everyone there was dirty (I'm paraphrasing here). Fagan on the other hand has apologised, is heavily involved in his club and meet/train stuff. They both did the exact same crime, maybe to different extents but because of Fagan's attitude and depression issues people seem to be more willing to forgive him. Not saying that's right or wrong, they're just the facts as I see them.

T runner

T runner wrote: »

People take Peds for different reasons, some are more selfish than others. Same with criminal offences. A man might steal food as the only means to feed his family. Or he might steal food even though he can afford to pay: he just wants to save/steal the money. Same crime, different motivations.

But after he does his time, he can have no complaints if people call him a thief. It's a statement of fact.

Similarly this runner can have no complaints if people call him a cheat. He may have served his ban, but he cannot dictate how others react. Of course, they must stay within the bounds of criminal law, but I don't see huge numbers arrested at sports fixtures when a player is booed. It wouldn't be for me, mind you, but I really don't see a charge of "booing and ostracising" ending up in the District Court.

Enduro

The junkie cheat's depression is a Red Herring.

He deliberately injected EPO into himself. That much is established fact. That's about as bad as it gets on the scale of these things. He came back with the usual collection of excuses AFTER he was caught. I don't believe a word that the junkie cheat says.

If I ever end up lined up at a race start near him, or see him going to collect any prize, or anything to do with participating in an athletics event, I will absolutely let him know what I think of his presence. He is a disgace to all sport. It doen't matter to me how lenient the official penalties are for deliberate drug cheating. That will not stop me from expressing my opinion directly to him.

Stazza

T and TRR - great posts. I'm in favour of lifetime bans, but as T says, this is an issue that should be taken up with the appropriate authorities.

Fagan's picked a pocket or two but he got caught and he's done his time. Not quite as switched on as some of the artful dodgers out there. But one things for sure, giving it the large on this forum about Fagan is cowardly. I'd like to see those of you on here giving it the big chat, say it to his face. Yeah, I thought not.

Be careful out there...

nerraw1111

How is it cowardly?

Not sure there would be any reluctance from competitive runners to say it to his face.

Stazza

Stazza wrote: »

But one things for sure, giving it the large on this forum about Fagan is cowardly. I'd like to see those of you on here giving it the big chat, say it to his face. Yeah, I thought not.

Be careful out there...

It's cowardly to call a drugs cheat a drugs cheat online?

Does that work across the board, can people not criticise Lance Armstrong unless they'd "say it to his face"? Is it cowardly of people to write about him and condemn him?

This is all news to me.

And what should I "be careful" of?

Stazza

First off, Enduro (you'll probably post as I'm posting so if we miss each other here you go: if you feel that strongly and you say it to his face, then fair play.

@nerraw 1111 - what the lad did was wrong. He got caught and punished. It's done. Over. If you feel strongly about it take it up with the appropriate authorities and get the rules changed. I'll support you.

To answer your question about, how is it cowardly - it is cowardly to sit here and slag somebody when they aren't here to defend themselves.Even if you don't see that as being an act of cowardice, surely can see that's it's just bad form. If you ever do anything wrong in your life, I hope all the people who surround you in your community don't adopt a passive aggressive nature towards you. It just isn't nice. Or maybe we should go round his gaff and burn him out because our existence depends on a red wheelbarrow...

Although I hope you're wrong, I'm beginning to suspect you might be right: there's safety in numbers - he probably will get booed.

morceli

Enduro wrote: »

The junkie cheat's depression is a Red Herring.

He deliberately injected EPO into himself. That much is established fact. That's about as bad as it gets on the scale of these things. He came back with the usual collection of excuses AFTER he was caught. I don't believe a word that the junkie cheat says.

If I ever end up lined up at a race start near him, or see him going to collect any prize, or anything to do with participating in an athletics event, I will absolutely let him know what I think of his presence. He is a disgace to all sport. It doen't matter to me how lenient the official penalties are for deliberate drug cheating. That will not stop me from expressing my opinion directly to him.

And from his interview he is expecting that and says that's what cheats should get. I can't remember any interview with an ex druggie that they called themselves a cheat. Not saying it makes what he did any better but if he can give some good back to the sport to start to make up for the damage he has caused that would be a good thing.

Stazza

Deleted User wrote: »

It's cowardly to call a drugs cheat a drugs cheat online?

Does that work across the board, can people not criticise Lance Armstrong unless they'd "say it to his face"? Is it cowardly of people to write about him and condemn him?

This is all news to me.

And what should I "be careful" of?

But why do you feel the need to come on a public forum and start calling a man a drug cheat? Yes, he cheated. We know that. He was punished. If you have issues about it, take it up with the authorities - you'll have my support. I'm only suggesting that you show some compassion and humanity. If that's beyond you, well then, there's no hope.

The, be careful out there comment wasn't a specific warning to 'you' (singular pronoun) - it was a comment that was always made on an old TV show called, Hill Street Blues - it's kinda like a joke; maybe a tad too subtle.

Enduro

Stazza wrote: »

First off, Enduro (you'll probably post as I'm posting so if we miss each other here you go: if you feel that strongly and you say it to his face, then fair play.

I do and I would. T-runner knows me in real life, and I'm sure he'd tell you that I'm not someone who shirks from expressing my opinions directly.

Enduro

Stazza wrote: »

But why do you feel the need to come on a public forum and start calling a man a drug cheat?

It's a straightforward factual statement! He is a convicted drugs cheat.

menoscemo

Stazza wrote: »

But why do you feel the need to come on a public forum and start calling a man a drug cheat? Yes, he cheated. We know that. He was punished. If you have issues about it, take it up with the authorities - you'll have my support. I'm only suggesting that you show some compassion and humanity. If that's beyond you, well then, there's no hope.

This coming from someone who killed a man for calling him American

Stazza

Enduro wrote: »

It's a straightforward factual statement! He is a convicted drugs cheat.

I accept both your points and I suspect you would say it to his face. But does that make it the right thing to do?

Would it make you feel better in any way? That's a serious question.

Stazza

menoscemo wrote: »

This coming from someone who killed a man for calling him American

There was a bit more to it than that. But yes, and I paid the price and continue to pay the price. I don't mind talking about it in a public forum because I'm here to defend myself. Sure, it was the wrong thing to do - one of the worst things a person can do. If I could change things I would. I can't.

Stazza

Stazza wrote: »

But why do you feel the need to come on a public forum and start calling a man a drug cheat? Yes, he cheated. We know that. He was punished. If you have issues about it, take it up with the authorities - you'll have my support. I'm only suggesting that you show some compassion and humanity. If that's beyond you, well then, there's no hope.

And as I previously asked, does the exact same logic apply to Lance Armstrong?

Noone should brand him a cheat and we should show him compassion and humanity and if that is "beyond" people "there is no hope"?

I disagree.