Public Sector Salary Scales

highgiant1985

Hi Folks,

I was wondering if someone could point me in the direction of where one could find the up to date public sector salary scales?

woodoo

Try the union websites, impact and inmo etc

highgiant1985

woodoo wrote: »

Try the union websites, impact and inmo etc

perfect thanks.

Note: I had tried to google the rates but couldn't be sure what I was seeing was the up to date scales.

Geuze

There's hundreds of public service roles across dozens of sectors.

I don't think any one website lists the hundreds of payscales.

Jawgap

DPER publish the salary scales.

RobbieTheRobber

Try http://circulars.gov.ie/ all published circulars are there including the revised payscales.

TechnicalGroup

highgiant1985 wrote: »

Hi Folks,

I was wondering if someone could point me in the direction of where one could find the up to date public sector salary scales?

Note that these pay scales can be very misleading, particularly to someone who works in the private sector.

First of all, these pay scales don't include 'allowances' which average €5,000 per worker in the public sector (average - some workers get far more and some get none).

A large proportion of these allowances are simply disguised salary supplements that go to everyone in the job - for example an allowance for fork lift drivers for driving a fork lift; allowances that teachers get for having the qualifications required for their job.

Others seem designed to look like expense reimbursements, but in reality are also salary-like payments - gardaí who wear a uniform get a uniform allowance. Plain-clothes gardaí get an allowance for not wearing a uniform.

The giveaway is that many of these allowances are pensionable - they are counted as salary when the pension is getting calculated. Oh, and then there is the lump sum - 18 months' salary tax free - plus the pension itself.

Jawgap

TechnicalGroup wrote: »

Note that these pay scales can be very misleading, particularly to someone who works in the private sector.

First of all, these pay scales don't include 'allowances' which average €5,000 per worker in the public sector (average - some workers get far more and some get none).

A large proportion of these allowances are simply disguised salary supplements that go to everyone in the job - for example an allowance for fork lift drivers for driving a fork lift; allowances that teachers get for having the qualifications required for their job.

Others seem designed to look like expense reimbursements, but in reality are also salary-like payments - gardaí who wear a uniform get a uniform allowance. Plain-clothes gardaí get an allowance for not wearing a uniform.

The giveaway is that many of these allowances are pensionable - they are counted as salary when the pension is getting calculated. Oh, and then there is the lump sum - 18 months' salary tax free - plus the pension itself.

Care to post up a source for the figure of 5k?

I get various 'allowances.' But nothing like 5k per year and all of it is reimbursement for spending carried out from my personal income in the course of my job so it's not extra income.

I'm also contractually obliged to have a car the full costs of which I have to bear unlike when I was in the private sector and had a company provided car.

Kristopherus

TechnicalGroup wrote: »

Note that these pay scales can be very misleading, particularly to someone who works in the private sector.

First of all, these pay scales don't include 'allowances' which average €5,000 per worker in the public sector (average - some workers get far more and some get none).

A large proportion of these allowances are simply disguised salary supplements that go to everyone in the job - for example an allowance for fork lift drivers for driving a fork lift; allowances that teachers get for having the qualifications required for their job.

Others seem designed to look like expense reimbursements, but in reality are also salary-like payments - gardaí who wear a uniform get a uniform allowance. Plain-clothes gardaí get an allowance for not wearing a uniform.

The giveaway is that many of these allowances are pensionable - they are counted as salary when the pension is getting calculated. Oh, and then there is the lump sum - 18 months' salary tax free - plus the pension itself.

Most of your post is rubbish. The vast majority of those allowances have been abolished under the Croke Park & Haddington Rd agreements.

TechnicalGroup

Jawgap wrote: »

Care to post up a source for the figure of 5k?

I get various 'allowances.' But nothing like 5k per year and all of it is reimbursement for spending carried out from my personal income in the course of my job so it's not extra income.

I'm also contractually obliged to have a car the full costs of which I have to bear unlike when I was in the private sector and had a company provided car.

Sure, the figure can be worked out from here. €1.5bn divided by 280k PS workers is well over €5,000 per annum.

I accept of course that averages can be misleading and people like yourself may get little or no allowances, but that means that others get far more than the €5,000 average.

Also, you are correct to distinguish between allowances that compensate for out-of-pocket expenses such a car (though only a tiny proportion of private sector workers get a company car, and those who do pay a whack in BIK tax on it) and allowances that are disguised salary payments. Otherwise, why would someone have their pension calculated based on allowances?

Kristopherus wrote: »

Most of your post is rubbish. The vast majority of those allowances have been abolished under the Croke Park & Haddington Rd agreements.

This is the list of allowances as per last July. It is clear from the titles that very few relate to reimbursing out-of-pocket expenses.

Do you have any source to indicate which, if any, of these have been abolished?

chopper6

TechnicalGroup wrote: »

Note that these pay scales can be very misleading, particularly to someone who works in the private sector.

First of all, these pay scales don't include 'allowances' which average €5,000 per worker in the public sector (average - some workers get far more and some get none).

A large proportion of these allowances are simply disguised salary supplements that go to everyone in the job - for example an allowance for fork lift drivers for driving a fork lift; allowances that teachers get for having the qualifications required for their job.

Others seem designed to look like expense reimbursements, but in reality are also salary-like payments - gardaí who wear a uniform get a uniform allowance. Plain-clothes gardaí get an allowance for not wearing a uniform.

The giveaway is that many of these allowances are pensionable - they are counted as salary when the pension is getting calculated. Oh, and then there is the lump sum - 18 months' salary tax free - plus the pension itself.

Garbage...where are you getting these figures?

chopper6

TechnicalGroup wrote: »

(though only a tiny proportion of private sector workers get a company car

And not ONE person I work with gets a company car.

This is in an organisation of 2500 employees.

Jawgap

TechnicalGroup wrote: »

Sure, the figure can be worked out from here. €1.5bn divided by 280k PS workers is well over €5,000 per annum.

I accept of course that averages can be misleading and people like yourself may get little or no allowances, but that means that others get far more than the €5,000 average.

Also, you are correct to distinguish between allowances that compensate for out-of-pocket expenses such a car (though only a tiny proportion of private sector workers get a company car, and those who do pay a whack in BIK tax on it) and allowances that are disguised salary payments. Otherwise, why would someone have their pension calculated based on allowances?



This is the list of allowances as per last July. It is clear from the titles that very few relate to reimbursing out-of-pocket expenses.

Do you have any source to indicate which, if any, of these have been abolished?

Why don't you show us the working out?

That list is a list of allowances set down for review not a list of allowances that are available.

Btw - I benchmark myself against people of my profession with a similar level of quals and experience. My salary in the PS is marginally competitive with what I get paid when I do private work. However, the perks are non-existent in the PS.

TechnicalGroup

Jawgap wrote: »

Why don't you show us the working out?.

€1,500,000,000 total allowances bill
280,000 PS workers

€1,500,000,000 / 280,000 = €5357.14 on average each.

Jawgap wrote: »

That list is a list of allowances set down for review not a list of allowances that are available.

I understood that they were all reviewed. If there are more, ones that weren't even reviewed, that isn't so flattering.

Jawgap wrote: »

Btw - I benchmark myself against people of my profession with a similar level of quals and experience. My salary in the PS is marginally competitive with what I get paid when I do private work. However, the perks are non-existent in the PS.

Data is not the plural of anecdote. I would be very interested to know what field of work has better perks (such as pensions) in the private sector than the public sector equivalent. Can you clarify?

Jawgap

TechnicalGroup wrote: »

€1,500,000,000 total allowances bill
280,000 PS workers

€1,500,000,000 / 280,000 = €5357.14 on average each.



I understood that they were all reviewed. If there are more, ones that weren't even reviewed, that isn't so flattering.



Data is not the plural of anecdote. I would be very interested to know what field of work has better perks (such as pensions) in the private sector than the public sector equivalent. Can you clarify?

Sure......law.

Check out what a decent in-house counsel draws down in pay and benefits

Notus

TechnicalGroup wrote: »

Sure, the figure can be worked out from here. €1.5bn divided by 280k PS workers is well over €5,000 per annum.

I accept of course that averages can be misleading and people like yourself may get little or no allowances, but that means that others get far more than the €5,000 average.

Also, you are correct to distinguish between allowances that compensate for out-of-pocket expenses such a car (though only a tiny proportion of private sector workers get a company car, and those who do pay a whack in BIK tax on it) and allowances that are disguised salary payments. Otherwise, why would someone have their pension calculated based on allowances?



This is the list of allowances as per last July. It is clear from the titles that very few relate to reimbursing out-of-pocket expenses.

Do you have any source to indicate which, if any, of these have been abolished?

There are a other ones as well, for example, in our local council to name a couple I know of that Joe Public doesn't get to take advantage of, free car parking, reduced childcare costs.
These hidden perks are endemic of the Public sector in Ireland and will continue because the public sector run the country and as the old saying goes, turkeys voting for Christmas.

It is very clear that the upper echelons of the public sector(specifically the civil service) are significantly better at keeping and getting allowances. The grunts on the ground who came in in the last 6 years haven't a clue and the oldies are keeping stum

strawberrie

It might be interesting to note that a School Principal receives basic teaching salary and an allowance for this role. This "allowance" is essentially their Principal's salary. The title is misleading.

Larbre34

Yeah, cos there is no such thing as free parking, assisted child care etc. in the private sector......:rolleyes:

P.S. Must remember to go home and shakedown the wife for the €5,000 she seems to be hiding from me.

Godge

TechnicalGroup wrote: »

Note that these pay scales can be very misleading, particularly to someone who works in the private sector.

First of all, these pay scales don't include 'allowances' which average €5,000 per worker in the public sector (average - some workers get far more and some get none).

A large proportion of these allowances are simply disguised salary supplements that go to everyone in the job - for example an allowance for fork lift drivers for driving a fork lift; allowances that teachers get for having the qualifications required for their job.

Others seem designed to look like expense reimbursements, but in reality are also salary-like payments - gardaí who wear a uniform get a uniform allowance. Plain-clothes gardaí get an allowance for not wearing a uniform.

The giveaway is that many of these allowances are pensionable - they are counted as salary when the pension is getting calculated. Oh, and then there is the lump sum - 18 months' salary tax free - plus the pension itself.

Complete rubbish not worth responding to. For those interested in original hard information and facts and not just sensational news stories, here are some links to payscales and related information for you:


Health:

http://www.hse.ie/eng/staff/Benefits_Services/pay/

Local Authorities:

http://www.impact.ie/Your-Sector/Public-Sector/Local-Authorities/Local-authority-salary-scales-.htm

Civil Service:

http://per.gov.ie/wp-content/uploads/circ282009.pdf

http://per.gov.ie/wp-content/uploads/sancdeductionfinalemer.pdf

http://per.gov.ie/wp-content/uploads/2013-DPER-Circular-8-2013-Final-Version-June.pdf

Education:

http://www.education.ie/en/Education-Staff/Information/Payroll-Financial-Information/Salary-Scales/

http://www.dit.ie/hr/resourcing/leave/salary-scales/

http://www.nuigalway.ie/payscales/

Pension Levy Rates:

http://per.gov.ie/wp-content/uploads/FAQs-on-PRD-updated-JULY-2009.pdf


More general information on HR in the civil service:

http://hr.per.gov.ie/

Notus

Larbre34 wrote: »

Yeah, cos there is no such thing as free parking, assisted child care etc. in the private sector......:rolleyes:

I don't know any company that offers assisted childcare? And there is no free parking in the vicinity of my local council offices for anyone other than the council workers?

Godge

Notus wrote: »

It is very clear that the upper echelons of the public sector(specifically the civil service) are significantly better at keeping and getting allowances. The grunts on the ground who came in in the last 6 years haven't a clue and the oldies are keeping stum

This clearly shows a level of ignorance beyond anything else in the thread. Staggering.

The upper echelons of the public service are not the ones who get the allowances. One of the reasons it was found so difficult for the politicians to do anything about the allowances over the last few years was because they were mostly paid to ordinary teachers, gardai, military personnel and general operatives (grunts in your world).

The few allowances that were paid to senior grade (delegate's allowance for representing Ireland paid to APs and POs and the school transport allowance to CEOs of VECs) were the only ones that were completely abolished!!! Unbelieveable how widespread the ignorance of facts is.

Notus

Godge wrote: »

This clearly shows a level of ignorance beyond anything else in the thread. Staggering.

The upper echelons of the public service are not the ones who get the allowances. One of the reasons it was found so difficult for the politicians to do anything about the allowances over the last few years was because they were mostly paid to ordinary teachers, gardai, military personnel and general operatives (grunts in your world).

The few allowances that were paid to senior grade (delegate's allowance for representing Ireland paid to APs and POs and the school transport allowance to CEOs of VECs) were the only ones that were completely abolished!!! Unbelieveable how widespread the ignorance of facts is.

Unbelievable how you think that a 2 paragraph rant with little or no facts would change my opinion.

You are implying that only a few allowances were paid to Civil servant s and they are gone now?

Your post is so full of crap I can only think you are having a laugh.

Jawgap

Notus wrote: »

Unbelievable how you think that a 2 paragraph rant with little or no facts would change my opinion.

You are implying that only a few allowances were paid to Civil servant s and they are gone now?

Your post is so full of crap I can only think you are having a laugh.

there were a lot of allowances but the fact is / was that no one could claim more than a slack handful- and most could claim hardly any or none.

Look down the list and you'll see that most are mutually exclusive. Also a lot were paid in lieu of overtime.

Personally, I'm glad they're gone because the system was nonsense - although if I actually qualified for any of them (apart from reimbursement for travel) I'd no doubt sing a different tune!

Godge

Notus wrote: »

Unbelievable how you think that a 2 paragraph rant with little or no facts would change my opinion.

You are implying that only a few allowances were paid to Civil servant s and they are gone now?

Your post is so full of crap I can only think you are having a laugh.

Yes, that is what I am saying.

The lowest level of allowances were paid to senior civil servants.


http://per.gov.ie/review-of-public-sector-allowances-and-premium-payments-business-cases-submitted-for-review/

Only two of the allowances on that list were paid to civil servants at AP level and above.

One of them - delegates allowance - was abolished and the other allowance - director's allowance - is because you are doing the duties of a higher grade.

Your opinion is based on a lack of factual information and of understanding of allowances in the civil service.

ardmacha

Notus wrote:

Unbelievable how you think that a 2 paragraph rant with little or no facts would change my opinion.

Presumably if you believe another poster is incorrect you can produce evidence of these "facts" that caused you to form your opinion?

chopper6

Notus wrote: »

And there is no free parking in the vicinity of my local council offices for anyone other than the council workers?

Why should there be?

It's not a public car park.

There's a big car park out at Intel but it's not for anybody who doesnt work there...a private sector "perk" perhaps?

sarumite

chopper6 wrote: »

Why should there be?

It's not a public car park.

There's a big car park out at Intel but it's not for anybody who doesnt work there...a private sector "perk" perhaps?

Actually, there are spots available for visitors to Intel.

Godge

sarumite wrote: »

Actually, there are spots available for visitors to Intel.

There are spots for visitors in most public service locations that have car-parks.

These tend to be places outside Dublin.

sarumite

Godge wrote: »

There are spots for visitors in most public service locations that have car-parks.

These tend to be places outside Dublin.

This kind of makes the previous post (which you thanked) a little moot, wouldn't you say?

chopper6

sarumite wrote: »

Actually, there are spots available for visitors to Intel.

Very decent of them...its not as if they have no space on that big eyesore complex.

However its not *public* car parking as you'd probably find if you left your car there while you went off to work elsewhere each day.

sock puppet

Godge wrote: »

Yes, that is what I am saying.

The lowest level of allowances were paid to senior civil servants.


http://per.gov.ie/review-of-public-sector-allowances-and-premium-payments-business-cases-submitted-for-review/

Only two of the allowances on that list were paid to civil servants at AP level and above.

One of them - delegates allowance - was abolished and the other allowance - director's allowance - is because you are doing the duties of a higher grade.

Your opinion is based on a lack of factual information and of understanding of allowances in the civil service.

Always thought that was a bit unfair. It means unless you're chasing promotion there's practically no benefit to those who have to travel overnight for their job.

sarumite

chopper6 wrote: »

Very decent of them...its not as if they have no space on that big eyesore complex.

However its not *public* car parking as you'd probably find if you left your car there while you went off to work elsewhere each day.

You're indeed correct. The point I am making is that there is parking for non-intel workers.

chopper6

sarumite wrote: »

You're indeed correct. The point I am making is that there is parking for non-intel workers.

But why are you making a point about parking in Intel in a thread about public sector salary scales?

It's just one-line oneupmanship.

Godge

sarumite wrote: »

This kind of makes the previous post (which you thanked) a little moot, wouldn't you say?

chopper6 wrote: »

Very decent of them...its not as if they have no space on that big eyesore complex.

However its not *public* car parking as you'd probably find if you left your car there while you went off to work elsewhere each day.

Exactly, and if you are a business visitor to Intel, you get a space.

If you are a business visitor to a public service building e.g. contractor, supplier etc. you also get a space.

If you are a retail customer with an Intel chip inside your laptop, you don't get a free space at Intel in the same way that a person getting a passport won't get a visitor space at the Passport Office but the person supplying paper will get a visitor space at the OPW or the GPS as it is now known.

So the question remains, why was the Intel example of car parking which is exactly the same as the public sector brought up in a thread about public sector pay scales?

Rightwing

TechnicalGroup wrote: »

Note that these pay scales can be very misleading, particularly to someone who works in the private sector.

First of all, these pay scales don't include 'allowances' which average €5,000 per worker in the public sector (average - some workers get far more and some get none).

A large proportion of these allowances are simply disguised salary supplements that go to everyone in the job - for example an allowance for fork lift drivers for driving a fork lift; allowances that teachers get for having the qualifications required for their job.

Others seem designed to look like expense reimbursements, but in reality are also salary-like payments - gardaí who wear a uniform get a uniform allowance. Plain-clothes gardaí get an allowance for not wearing a uniform.

The giveaway is that many of these allowances are pensionable - they are counted as salary when the pension is getting calculated. Oh, and then there is the lump sum - 18 months' salary tax free - plus the pension itself.

We really do need another croke park agreement, in fact we need a new one for each of the next 5 years or so.

chopper6

Rightwing wrote: »

We really do need another croke park agreement, in fact we need a new one for each of the next 5 years or so.

The next thing you cn get your knickers in a twist about is this: Part of the new Hadington Road agreement is the restoration of lost monies due to salary cuts...subject of course to no major deterioration in our finances.

Looks like it's all on track so far.

Rightwing

chopper6 wrote: »

The next thing you cn get your knickers in a twist about is this: Part of the new Hadington Road agreement is the restoration of lost monies due to salary cuts...subject of course to no major deterioration in our finances.

Looks like it's all on track so far.

Salary cuts? .....In the public sector? Don't think they know what salary cuts are, unless of course the likes of the gardai losing a boot allowance constitutes a pay cut.

barneystinson

Rightwing wrote: »

Salary cuts? .....In the public sector? Don't think they know what salary cuts are, unless of course the likes of the gardai losing a boot allowance constitutes a pay cut.

So are you suggesting that no-one in the public sector has had a salary cut?

Rightwing

barneystinson wrote: »

So are you suggesting that no-one in the public sector has had a salary cut?

At this stage I'm not sure anyone even knows.

We need massive privatisation, it's completely out of control.

barneystinson

Rightwing wrote: »

At this stage I'm not sure anyone even knows.

We need massive privatisation, it's completely out of control.

Last July anyone earning over 65k got a 5% pay cut - it might be news to you but most of the rest of the country heard about it at the time - Haddington Road Agreement it was called, I think; maybe you heard of it...

Rightwing

barneystinson wrote: »

Last July anyone earning over 65k got a 5% pay cut - it might be news to you but most of the rest of the country heard about it at the time - Haddington Road Agreement it was called, I think; maybe you heard of it...

What they take on one hand, they'll be giving with the other, bonuses.

We shouldn't be afraid of privatisation, we should embrace it, then bonuses are applicable.

K-9

Rightwing wrote: »

Salary cuts? .....In the public sector? Don't think they know what salary cuts are, unless of course the likes of the gardai losing a boot allowance constitutes a pay cut.

Mod:

http://www.moneyguideireland.com/budget-2010-and-public-sector-pay-cuts.html

I'm very surprised I even have to dig up a link, but there you are. No more of these type of posts please and if you want to see more privatisation of the public sector, this really isn't the thread for it.

A general note, can we stay on topic and try not to get too fixated about car parks!

eigrod

K-9 wrote: »

Mod:

http://www.moneyguideireland.com/budget-2010-and-public-sector-pay-cuts.html

I'm very surprised I even have to dig up a link, but there you are.

And more here : http://per.gov.ie/public-service-pay-policy/

chopper6

Rightwing wrote: »

Salary cuts? .....In the public sector? Don't think they know what salary cuts are, unless of course the likes of the gardai losing a boot allowance constitutes a pay cut.

Yes and there will be no further salary cuts either.

Which is good news for us in the PS.

Paulzx

chopper6 wrote: »

Yes and there will be no further salary cuts either.

Which is good news for us in the PS.

That's what was said the last time. I have very little faith in an agreement that was negotiated on the back of one party i.e the government breaking an existing agreement.

Time will tell i suppose but the FEMPI legislation is available if and when the government ever needs it. Maybe I'm being overly pessimistic but at this stage I lean towards a cynical view of negotiated agreements

chopper6

Paulzx wrote: »

That's what was said the last time. I have very little faith in an agreement that was negotiated on the back of one party i.e the government breaking an existing agreement.

Time will tell i suppose but the FEMPI legislation is available if and when the government ever needs it. Maybe I'm being overly pessimistic but at this stage I lean towards a cynical view of negotiated agreements

True...they second agreement was pretty much a revisiting of the
first despite assurances to the contrary.

However i think every employee plus most of the govt now realise enough is enough and if they want further revenue they'll have to look elsewhere.
..why they arent chasing corporations who are not tax compliant is beyond me.

Jawgap

Paulzx wrote: »

That's what was said the last time. I have very little faith in an agreement that was negotiated on the back of one party i.e the government breaking an existing agreement.

Time will tell i suppose but the FEMPI legislation is available if and when the government ever needs it. Maybe I'm being overly pessimistic but at this stage I lean towards a cynical view of negotiated agreements

I would not be holding my breath about HRA being reversed.

Unlike previous social partnership agreements, this had nothing to do with social partnership, the country's fiscal situation or wider economic issues - it was an ideological driven agreement, mostly rammed through to show people that Labour are not left wing, socialists - that they can be trusted to make 'tough' unpopular decisions.

I suspect whoever follows this government will renege on the deal and point to the complaints of the PS workers as evidence of their ability to make 'tough' decisions.

Thankfully by that stage I'll no longer be part of the PS.

eigrod

Paulzx wrote: »

That's what was said the last time. I have very little faith in an agreement that was negotiated on the back of one party i.e the government breaking an existing agreement.

Time will tell i suppose but the FEMPI legislation is available if and when the government ever needs it. Maybe I'm being overly pessimistic but at this stage I lean towards a cynical view of negotiated agreements

There will be nothing further to impact negatively on public sector pay this side of the next General election. After that, who knows?

chopper6

eigrod wrote: »

There will be nothing further to impact negatively on public sector pay this side of the next General election. After that, who knows?

The next Govt will realise that the PS have been scapegoated by elements of the media and non-productive private sector...if they want the country to run efficiently again they will need to start overturning previous paycuts.

There will be renewed recruitment within the PS as well as numbers are too low,especially within the Gardai and Health Services.

Jawgap

chopper6 wrote: »

The next Govt will realise that the PS have been scapegoated by elements of the media and non-productive private sector...if they want the country to run efficiently again they will need to start overturning previous paycuts.

There will be renewed recruitment within the PS as well as numbers are too low,especially within the Gardai and Health Services.

I really hope you are right - but to be honest, I suspect they'll string out giving back the HRA money and then couch it as pay rises when they do.

I think recruitment will start again but turnover rates will accelerate. I think there's a lot going to come out of Templemore in 2 years who won't be policing in 5 years and more and more nurses, teachers etc will hop across to the UK to have proper careers.

About 10 years from now, there'll be a realisation of the cock-up that has been made, and it'll take another 10 years to correct it!

chopper6

Jawgap wrote: »

I really hope you are right - but to be honest, I suspect they'll string out giving back the HRA money and then couch it as pay rises when they do.

I think recruitment will start again but turnover rates will accelerate. I think there's a lot going to come out of Templemore in 2 years who won't be policing in 5 years and more and more nurses, teachers etc will hop across to the UK to have proper careers.

About 10 years from now, there'll be a realisation of the cock-up that has been made, and it'll take another 10 years to correct it!

Yep...the sort of shiite pay they'll be offering to Gardai and Nurses will not exactly be a mmotivation for people to stay and make a career out of it.

If they want decent services they will need to pay decent wages.