Keeping large marine animals in captivety.

DEFTLEFTHAND

I watched Blackfish last night a documentary that came about after an Orca killled it's Sealand trainer in 2010, it was the third human kill this particular Orca had made in his 27 years. There is no documented killing of a human by an Orca in the wild. This doc explores the mind of the creature and how some end up going crazy over time. A highly intelligent beast who's nature it is to roam the open water to hunt and kill not to be be kept in a swimming pool and perform to audiences for dead frozen herring.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OEjYquyjcg

The animal after the incident.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFmB99yDoNE

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

emotionally manipulative enviromentalist horse****? count me in!

kneemos

No worse than keeping a Goldfish.

RebelSoul

I like the parts where the animals kill the humans.

robertpatterson

Im not a bunny hugger but I watched it a while ago and its a powerful film.
Anyone who goes to these 'shows' when abroad should watch it and get their eyes opened

Gran Hermano

Not another free willy thread.

Vito Corleone

He certainly isn't having a (ಠ_ಠ)
(ಠ_ಠ)ノ-■-■
whale of a time.
(-■_■)

illeagles_mcc

maybe you could try and fly him back to the moon

biko

Blackfish? That's racist.

wazky

Gran Hermano wrote: »

Not another free willy thread.

Personal issues > that way

BillyMitchel

Where did you watch the documentary?
Any links?

Howard Juneau

Gran Hermano wrote: »

Not another free willy thread.

I charge for mine, times are tough!

Sunnyisland

biko wrote: »

Blackfish? That's racist.

Are you codding ?

The Diabolical Monocle

Inexcusable thing to do, especially in these days of very advanced media, watch an old recorded version on a giant screen my precious discerning little snowflake.

Ill never go to one of those parks/shows.

DEFTLEFTHAND

BillyMitchel wrote: »

Where did you watch the documentary?
Any links?

I watched it on DVD. You could probably find it somewhere online I'd imagine, I don't think it's on our version of netflix.

Guy:Incognito

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

it was the third human kill this particular Orca had made in his 27 years. There is no documented killing of a human by an Orca in the wild.

How much direct contact is there in the wild compared to captivity?

SpaceTime

It's pretty ridiculous keeping animals in captivity for entertainment value.

We haven't quite gotten beyond Victorian circuses.

I'm sure if a bunch of whales put a human into an underwater bubble of air and expected them to do tricks for pizza slices they'd probably be plotting their escape / ways of bumping their captors off too.

BillyMitchel

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

I watched it on DVD. You could probably find it somewhere online I'd imagine, I don't think it's on our version of netflix.

Cheers, I'd say kickass will have it!

Dr conrad murray

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11xs9mFKObs

antartic emperor penquin living in japan

DEFTLEFTHAND

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

How much direct contact is there in the wild compared to captivity?

People do interact with them, fishermen especially, they follow trawlers for the free food. In Norway they come into a particular towns harbour and trash in the bay until the boats go out, the Orcas then lead the boats to the schools of herring. There's a woman in New Zealand who has made good inroads into a wild orca family/pod, to the extent that they actually recognise and greet her.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETGHPlZSBNA

kylith

Sea parks should be shut down. It's no better than having elephants in circuses.

Pumpkinseeds

I've always found these marine parks obscene. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that the creatures will slowly go mad in an unnatural habitat.

Mickey H

biko wrote: »

Blackfish? That's racist.

Fish noir. Sorted.

Zillah

It's pretty monstrous. You take an animal with demonstrated intelligence, that we know forms complex social bonds and maintains relationships with each other for decades, that are incredibly acoustically sensitive and normally have the limitless depths of the ocean to explore - you abduct it when it is very young and imprison it in the equivalent of a tiny prison, where every sound bounces back at them instantly and they have to cavort for the entertainment of fat tourists. You keep them in such unhappy conditions that they go mental and kill people for God knows what - boredom? Rage? Revenge?

It's horrendous - the way we treat other animals for our own pleasure is one of the things I'm most ashamed of the human race for.

The fact that Free Willy makes you feel the topic is a bit naff doesn't change their suffering.

Zillah

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: »

emotionally manipulative enviromentalist horse****? count me in!

A - Every documentary is emotionally manipulative, that's how they work. They're designed to get a reaction from you. That doesn't mean that what they show you is untrue.
B - Dismissing this as "environmentalist" is about as stupid as complaining about health and safety regulations being "PC gone mad". What on Earth do you think this has to do with the environment?

Not that there's anything wrong with environmentalism - God forbid we should be concerned about destroying the ecosystem that we depend on to, y'know, live.

Arrow.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: »

emotionally manipulative enviromentalist horse****? count me in!

You didn't even watch it....also you failed at being edgy and just come off ignorant.

It's on Netflix (Irish). Have it on 'my list'. Looks interesting.

DEFTLEFTHAND

Free Willy has been brought up a few times and it did highlight the Orcas plight. Keiko the animal used in the film was brought back to the wild after extensive training over a long period, they needed to get him to hunt and be able to fend for himself in the open water. Warner Brothers the studio who made the movie gave 3 million dollars to this cause. He was only two years of age when he was taken from his family so his hunting instincts never got the chance to develop, considering a wild Orca has the same lifespan of a human man. In captivity they tend to die between 25 and 30.

Unfortunately for Keiko he didn't last long on his own, he died a year after his official release in Iceland and washed up on a Norwegian beach.

Heres a good doc about his life and path back to the wild.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYyU3USJ-8E

kneemos

The psycho killers of the marine world.

Irish Steve

Not as cut and dried as it's being presented.

Been to Seaworld in Orlando, several times, and watched the "formal" presentations, as well as the behind the scenes stuff that goes on when no one is watching.

Also been to other places, not theme parks, and this is where (I hope) it gets interesting. A number of years ago, we visited Walvis Bay, in Namibia, as part of a holiday in that amazing country.

We went out on a boat trip, relatively small boat that was carrying probably 20 passengers, on a see the sights type of cruise around the local area, a 2 hour trip.

During that 2 hours, at one stage, the captain slowed down, and opened a gate at the back of the boat, and laid some sheet material on the centre row of seats, and warned everyone not to panic, or to make sudden moves.

Very shortly after that, a fully grown seal jumped up on to the rear of the boat, and moved up along the sheet material so that it was right in the middle of the people on the boat, and it stayed there, happy to be handled and touched, for a good 10 minutes or so, and received a few pieces of fish for doing so.

There was no coercion for it to come out of the water on to the boat, and it does this on a very regular basis, and I should qualify that, there are a number of seals that act in this way, the captains have named them, as they can be identified by their markings.

There is absolutely no food imperative on the seals to act as they do, there is an abundance of live food available with no restrictions on availability, the seals choose to act in the way that they do, the human interaction is by choice. The same happens with some of the other "wildlife", there are birds that will also come on board the boat, or fly in formation with the boat to just show off, and while they too get food rewards, there is no shortage of readily available food from "natural" sources.

The same is true with Dolphins, they will come up to and formate around a boat, and travel in formation with it.

So, back to the Orca. They do what they do through choice, and yes, that behaviour is encouraged by reward, but do you really think that an Orca is going to cooperate with a puny little human through force? There have been plenty of documentaries about the family behaviour of the Orca, and the way that different Orca behave in different parts of the world. There are Orca in one part of the world that will hunt seals, but that behaviour is unique to only 2 families world wide.

We see aberrant behaviour in the Human population, as has been graphically demonstrated in recent days in Edinburgh, and the strong implication of the arrest made is that a family member is implicated. Are we surprised that for whatever reason, an Orca has acted in an unpredictable manner? Many of the Orca at places like Seaworld were born there, so know nothing of an open ocean, so don't automatically assume that they have been "deprived".

I've spent time watching the interaction between the handlers and the Orca when there's nothing "formal" happening, and the manner in which they interact. and their behaviour patterns evolve, is very much at the control of the Orca, if it wants to "play" it will, if it doesn't, there not much the handlers or anyone else can do about it, which is very apparent if you watch more than one "scheduled" show, they can and do vary depending on the humour of the participants.

Maybe the handler did something that the Orca deemed to be inappropriate, as we can't talk to them, we have no way to be sure. What is clear is that they are a wild animal, and need to be handled appropriately.

In recent days, Sky news reported on an incident in Africa where a bull elephant attacked the car of a tourist in a game reserve. Did it not like the colour of the car, did the driver sound the horn at an inappropriate moment, or get too close, who knows, what we saw was a bull elephant turning the car over on to its roof, with no problems doing so. I've been in a car less than 2 Ft from a whole herd of elephant, and yes, it was in gear with my foot on the clutch so that if there was any indication of distress or upset, we were out of there. We didn't approach the herd, they came out of the bush and approached us on their way to the nearby water hole, so it was their choice how close to get to us. We could have opened the window and touched a significant number if we'd been feeling really brave, but we didn't.

The documentary has a slant, they always do have some sort of slant, that's why they are made. It doesn't mean that the slant is correct, or it could be the thin end of a very nasty wedge. As to how each individual responds to it, that has to be their choice, and for any group to try and force their opinion on others is wrong.

In closing, if an Orca wasn't happy about the manner in which humans were interacting with it, would it willingly allow its new born to interact with those same humans? The strongest instinct in most animals is the maternal one, and that is certainly the case with the Orca. If they allow their new born young to interact with the humans, that has to be an indication that they do not see the humans as a threat to them.

Zillah

- The only reason the seals were jumping into the boat was because they were being fed. An animal won't invest energy and time in hunting food if free food is being given out. Even in times/places of abundance, they still don't just go to the fridge, they have to hunt, that takes time and energy.

- Even if they were showing up for fun - so? Some animals are capable of showing curiosity in humans (re; dolphins). What the hell does that have to do with it being horrible to take them from the ocean and keep them in tanks for the rest of their lives?

- Orcas are controlled by humans because the trainers decide how and when they get fed, or not fed. They decide when and how they sleep. They decide how often they interact (their only interaction - because they were taken away from their family and natural sources of stimulation). What do you imagine an uncooperative orca can do if it doesn't want to cooperate? It sits in a tank ignored for the rest of its life.

You're completely deluded if you think those animals are active partners in the process. They're bribed and blackmailed with food and attention, and have absolutely no where else to go and nothing else to do. If you visited a cotton farm during the height of slavery I'm sure you'd see plenty of slaves getting on fine with their masters, but you'd be a fool to think they were content to be there or that it was an equitable arrangement.

In closing, if an Orca wasn't happy about the manner in which humans were interacting with it, would it willingly allow its new born to interact with those same humans? The strongest instinct in most animals is the maternal one, and that is certainly the case with the Orca. If they allow their new born young to interact with the humans, that has to be an indication that they do not see the humans as a threat to them.

They have absolutely no choice what happens their young. They lock the animals in different tanks when they want to do anything with them alone. If you had actually watched the documentary you'd know there was an incident where a young Orca was taken away from its mother and sold to another park and the mother spent the whole night making noises they had never heard before.

ceadaoin.

Irish Steve wrote: »

Not as cut and dried as it's being presented.

Been to Seaworld in Orlando, several times, and watched the "formal" presentations, as well as the behind the scenes stuff that goes on when no one is watching.

Also been to other places, not theme parks, and this is where (I hope) it gets interesting. A number of years ago, we visited Walvis Bay, in Namibia, as part of a holiday in that amazing country.

We went out on a boat trip, relatively small boat that was carrying probably 20 passengers, on a see the sights type of cruise around the local area, a 2 hour trip.

During that 2 hours, at one stage, the captain slowed down, and opened a gate at the back of the boat, and laid some sheet material on the centre row of seats, and warned everyone not to panic, or to make sudden moves.

Very shortly after that, a fully grown seal jumped up on to the rear of the boat, and moved up along the sheet material so that it was right in the middle of the people on the boat, and it stayed there, happy to be handled and touched, for a good 10 minutes or so, and received a few pieces of fish for doing so.

There was no coercion for it to come out of the water on to the boat, and it does this on a very regular basis, and I should qualify that, there are a number of seals that act in this way, the captains have named them, as they can be identified by their markings.

There is absolutely no food imperative on the seals to act as they do, there is an abundance of live food available with no restrictions on availability, the seals choose to act in the way that they do, the human interaction is by choice. The same happens with some of the other "wildlife", there are birds that will also come on board the boat, or fly in formation with the boat to just show off, and while they too get food rewards, there is no shortage of readily available food from "natural" sources.

The same is true with Dolphins, they will come up to and formate around a boat, and travel in formation with it.

So, back to the Orca. They do what they do through choice, and yes, that behaviour is encouraged by reward, but do you really think that an Orca is going to cooperate with a puny little human through force? There have been plenty of documentaries about the family behaviour of the Orca, and the way that different Orca behave in different parts of the world. There are Orca in one part of the world that will hunt seals, but that behaviour is unique to only 2 families world wide.

We see aberrant behaviour in the Human population, as has been graphically demonstrated in recent days in Edinburgh, and the strong implication of the arrest made is that a family member is implicated. Are we surprised that for whatever reason, an Orca has acted in an unpredictable manner? Many of the Orca at places like Seaworld were born there, so know nothing of an open ocean, so don't automatically assume that they have been "deprived".

I've spent time watching the interaction between the handlers and the Orca when there's nothing "formal" happening, and the manner in which they interact. and their behaviour patterns evolve, is very much at the control of the Orca, if it wants to "play" it will, if it doesn't, there not much the handlers or anyone else can do about it, which is very apparent if you watch more than one "scheduled" show, they can and do vary depending on the humour of the participants.

Maybe the handler did something that the Orca deemed to be inappropriate, as we can't talk to them, we have no way to be sure. What is clear is that they are a wild animal, and need to be handled appropriately.

The seals came on to the boat because they were given food. Why would they waste their energy hunting when they can be handed a meal without putting in any effort?

How can you say it is the whales choice to perform like this? They are bribed with food and interaction. It was hardly their choice to be taken from their families and natural habitat and kept in a prison. And yes, whales do have strong familial bonds. If you watched the documentary you would know that the mothers tried their best to stop their young from being taken. Even one of the guys involved in capturing them said it still haunts him all these years later. It's wrong

--LOS--

I like blackfish and agree it is a powerful documentary and yes it is a good thing that the hype of this documentary has and will stop people going to these kinds of places.

At the same time though, it kind of bugs me that it is so hyped by the media, there are far worse things going on, if you really want to have your eyes opened you need to watch something like 'earthlings', but you won't hear about that all over social media because it is far too 'extreme' or 'controversial' or just too real. It just really grates on me the hypocrisy surrounding issues like this, I see it all the time here on after hours........... threads about an abused animal, singular, but at the same time non-stop bashing of vegetarianism and veganism, millions of animals suffer and die every day for what....... for our taste buds. And to save you from the usual replies, no we don't need animals for food and there's no such thing as a humane death.

So ye you should watch blackfish and hopefully take away the message from it, but you should also be open to exploring other such instances of animal cruelty even if it is not cool to do so or if it's not the current fixation of Hollywood, maybe think before you abuse vegetarians and vegans on the site.

Zillah

--LOS-- wrote: »

So ye you should watch blackfish and hopefully take away the message from it, but you should also be open to exploring other such instances of animal cruelty even if it is not cool to do so or if it's not the current fixation of Hollywood, maybe think before you abuse vegetarians and vegans on the site.

I had this awkward conversation with a number of people after The Cove. They'd rant and rave over how awful it was that dolphins were being killed, and would get weird, defensive and angry when I pointed out that it wasn't really any worse than cows and pigs being killed, which they eat.

Quietyou

Locking any intelligent species up and using them for entertainment is inhumane in any form, all you have to do is imagine yourself in their position. The advantage we have is that we can fight back and have the tools to do so. These animals have no way of fighting back (except eating their trainers of course).

steddyeddy

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: »

emotionally manipulative enviromentalist horse****? count me in!

Sorry but I don't get what part of his post was inaccurate?

steddyeddy

By the way recent evidence confirms the common sense view that higher order animals have higher cognitive faculties and have emotional capacity equal to or greater than or own.

Howard Juneau

steddyeddy wrote: »

By the way recent evidence confirms the common sense view that higher order animals have higher cognitive faculties and have emotional capacity equal to or greater than or own.

I'd like to see a link to the greater emotional capacity than our own.....will give you a great big hug if you find it

RDM_83 again

Seen the documentary and its just alright and a bit weak on the science side while strong on the emotions. What I found interesting though is the focus on the animals rather than the handlers, to me putting human lives at risk is a much bigger issue than any mistreatment of animals.

BillyMitchel

Irish Steve wrote: »

Not as cut and dried as it's being presented.

Been to Seaworld in Orlando, several times, and watched the "formal" presentations, as well as the behind the scenes stuff that goes on when no one is watching.

Also been to other places, not theme parks, and this is where (I hope) it gets interesting. A number of years ago, we visited Walvis Bay, in Namibia, as part of a holiday in that amazing country.

We went out on a boat trip, relatively small boat that was carrying probably 20 passengers, on a see the sights type of cruise around the local area, a 2 hour trip.

During that 2 hours, at one stage, the captain slowed down, and opened a gate at the back of the boat, and laid some sheet material on the centre row of seats, and warned everyone not to panic, or to make sudden moves.

Very shortly after that, a fully grown seal jumped up on to the rear of the boat, and moved up along the sheet material so that it was right in the middle of the people on the boat, and it stayed there, happy to be handled and touched, for a good 10 minutes or so, and received a few pieces of fish for doing so.

There was no coercion for it to come out of the water on to the boat, and it does this on a very regular basis, and I should qualify that, there are a number of seals that act in this way, the captains have named them, as they can be identified by their markings.

There is absolutely no food imperative on the seals to act as they do, there is an abundance of live food available with no restrictions on availability, the seals choose to act in the way that they do, the human interaction is by choice. The same happens with some of the other "wildlife", there are birds that will also come on board the boat, or fly in formation with the boat to just show off, and while they too get food rewards, there is no shortage of readily available food from "natural" sources.

The same is true with Dolphins, they will come up to and formate around a boat, and travel in formation with it.

So, back to the Orca. They do what they do through choice, and yes, that behaviour is encouraged by reward, but do you really think that an Orca is going to cooperate with a puny little human through force? There have been plenty of documentaries about the family behaviour of the Orca, and the way that different Orca behave in different parts of the world. There are Orca in one part of the world that will hunt seals, but that behaviour is unique to only 2 families world wide.

We see aberrant behaviour in the Human population, as has been graphically demonstrated in recent days in Edinburgh, and the strong implication of the arrest made is that a family member is implicated. Are we surprised that for whatever reason, an Orca has acted in an unpredictable manner? Many of the Orca at places like Seaworld were born there, so know nothing of an open ocean, so don't automatically assume that they have been "deprived".

I've spent time watching the interaction between the handlers and the Orca when there's nothing "formal" happening, and the manner in which they interact. and their behaviour patterns evolve, is very much at the control of the Orca, if it wants to "play" it will, if it doesn't, there not much the handlers or anyone else can do about it, which is very apparent if you watch more than one "scheduled" show, they can and do vary depending on the humour of the participants.

Maybe the handler did something that the Orca deemed to be inappropriate, as we can't talk to them, we have no way to be sure. What is clear is that they are a wild animal, and need to be handled appropriately.

In recent days, Sky news reported on an incident in Africa where a bull elephant attacked the car of a tourist in a game reserve. Did it not like the colour of the car, did the driver sound the horn at an inappropriate moment, or get too close, who knows, what we saw was a bull elephant turning the car over on to its roof, with no problems doing so. I've been in a car less than 2 Ft from a whole herd of elephant, and yes, it was in gear with my foot on the clutch so that if there was any indication of distress or upset, we were out of there. We didn't approach the herd, they came out of the bush and approached us on their way to the nearby water hole, so it was their choice how close to get to us. We could have opened the window and touched a significant number if we'd been feeling really brave, but we didn't.

The documentary has a slant, they always do have some sort of slant, that's why they are made. It doesn't mean that the slant is correct, or it could be the thin end of a very nasty wedge. As to how each individual responds to it, that has to be their choice, and for any group to try and force their opinion on others is wrong.

In closing, if an Orca wasn't happy about the manner in which humans were interacting with it, would it willingly allow its new born to interact with those same humans? The strongest instinct in most animals is the maternal one, and that is certainly the case with the Orca. If they allow their new born young to interact with the humans, that has to be an indication that they do not see the humans as a threat to them.

Good read.

This particular orca has already killed 3 people though. Is that not enough to say leave me the fućk alone?

Howard Juneau

BillyMitchel wrote: »

Good read.

This particular orca has already killed 3 people though. Is that not enough to say leave me the fućk alone?

Or to Just let the Eskimos harpoon it & live off it's bounty for a month

steddyeddy

Howard Juneau wrote: »

I'd like to see a link to the greater emotional capacity than our own.....will give you a great big hug if you find it

http://www.pnas.org/content/106/49/20824.full.pdf+html
http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2011/03/08/3158077.htm
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn10661#.UtrFydJFDIU

That's just a few of the recent articles for you to read. The theory is based upon the discovery of "spindle neurons" within the brains of chimps, elephants, killer whales and dolphins. Spindle cells are associated with higher cognition, communication and emotion. That covers the emotional capacity part. The possibility that these higher order animals might have more emotional capacity than us comes from the fact that some of these animals have more spindle cells than us even when you take their bigger brain into consideration.

Polka_Dot

RDM_83 again wrote: »

Seen the documentary and its just alright and a bit weak on the science side while strong on the emotions. What I found interesting though is the focus on the animals rather than the handlers, to me putting human lives at risk is a much bigger issue than any mistreatment of animals.

Yeah I got that out of it as well. Yes, Sea World are dicks for keeping animals like that in captivity for entertainment, but they're also dicks for letting just about anyone who's a strong swimmer, with no necessary experience with animal handling train orcas.

steddyeddy

Howard Juneau wrote: »

Or to Just let the Eskimos harpoon it & live off it's bounty for a month

We'll call that the less educated option

My name is URL

Considering that whales in the wild can be driven to distraction by the noise of ships, it's hard to imagine what torment they experience in captivity like that. No need for it other than for cheap entertainment.

It's far worse than bullfighting etc imo. At least it's over relatively quickly for the bull.. they live a 'normal' life up until the time they're killed. Whales in captivity never get that.. their suffering is nurtured and prolonged over years just to make money.

timthumbni

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

I watched Blackfish last night a documentary that came about after an Orca killled it's Sealand trainer in 2010, it was the third human kill this particular Orca had made in his 27 years. There is no documented killing of a human by an Orca in the wild. This doc explores the mind of the creature and how some end up going crazy over time. A highly intelligent beast who's nature it is to roam the open water to hunt and kill not to be be kept in a swimming pool and perform to audiences for dead frozen herring.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OEjYquyjcg

The animal after the incident.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFmB99yDoNE

I watched this film blackfish last year and I have to admit it was a vey scary and thought provoking film. Why would anyone want to keep an animal that is used to roaming hundreds of miles into a swimming pool is beyond me. The whale turns psychotic and there is 3 dead humans to prove the point. Mental.

Howard Juneau

steddyeddy wrote: »

We'll call that the less educated option

Or the natural law option

steddyeddy

Howard Juneau wrote: »

Or the natural law option

Define the natural law? Going around killing intelligent animals can't be justified.

Howard Juneau

steddyeddy wrote: »

Define the natural law? Going around killing intelligent animals can't be justified.

Well, yes it can. Ronald McDonald had made a fckin fortune from it!

steddyeddy

Howard Juneau wrote: »

Well, yes it can. Ronald McDonald had made a fckin fortune from it!

What intelligent animals are they?

Howard Juneau

steddyeddy wrote: »

What intelligent animals are they?

Horses?

steddyeddy

Howard Juneau wrote: »

Horses?

Not up the intelligence level of whales and (some) humans I'm afraid