Disciplinary meeting at work

LegacyUser

Hi,
I recently made a mistake in work on one of our client's accounts. I basically clicked the wrong button and accidentally froze their spending. I immediately undid my action and the account and funds on it looked back to normal afterwards, so to me there was no need for concern.

However, someone else in the company noticed the action and undo on the account and asked my manager about it. My manager asked me about it and straight away I told him what happened. He has since had an investigation meeting with me. He has confirmed with our engineers that there were no side effects to my mistake and no effects on the client funds. However he has a major issue with the fact that I did not mention the mistake. I said that I felt I had no reason to, since everything looked back to normal afterwards. He asked if I know enough about our systems to know 100% that there could be no repercussions to my action and I said no as I am not engineer but based on everything I DO know, there was nothing to worry about.

I now have a disciplinary meeting scheduled with a 3rd party manager next week. I am terrified I will lose my job. My manager has said to me a few times (casually) that there are areas I need to work on such as higher productivity, better communication skills etc and he never seemed to like me much. This is my first big mistake in the job. I am a good worker, great attendance, love the company etc. This is the first formal process I have ever been through in a job. We have a grievance policy and I am worried that not telling of the mistake would be classed as gross misconduct. My manager can be quite black and white about things and our grievance policy is quite vague on what constitutes a warning but very thorough on what is gross misconduct (theft, assault, bringing the company into disrepute, severe trust breakdown). I spoke to HR and she said that she thinks it will only be a warning but she could just be saying that- HR protect the employer!

Any advice would be much appreciated.

Bepolite

If an action can lead to dismissal you have to be informed of that ahead of time. All evidence should be presented to you ahead of the formal meeting.

If in doubt see an employment solicitor. I highly recommend doing this in all disciplinary situations, just the whiff of a solicitors involvement usually puts manners on a company's procedures. That said in this case the business seem completely reasonable, having engaged with you in an investigation and engaging a third party manager to make the final decision in a separate formal disciplinary meeting. All of which is best practice.

You mention the grievance procedure which is a separate thing. The disciplinary procedure is was is used in this instance, the grievance procedure is for when you have an issue with the business.

I'd take your licks and move on frankly.

Nody

Well sorry to burst your bubble but you don't appear to be "a good worker" if your manager has to point out your lack of communication, productivity etc. multiple times. The fact you decided not to tell about something which you admit yourself could have significant ramifications with out you knowing it to a client with out telling your manager because you thought everything was ok (knowing that you did not know the system) is not exactly a glowing character reference either.

If I was you I'd walk in there and be honest about the mistake and try to sharpen up on your work style going forward; If you had told your boss about it you'd at most had a slap on your wrist; now you have a disciplinary instead. I'd say the likely outcome would be verbal or first written warning as likely outcomes (if there's any warning at all).

Doom

First of all, it is very hard to fire someone from their job.
It has to be seen as gross negligence, stealing etc. to be fired.
Do not worry, look up some info on nera.ie and Citizen Advice beauru.
Make sure you have a witness with you, minutes of the meeting have to be copied and given to you.
Any action from the company appropriate to what happened, a verbal warning at the most, which will only last 6 months on your employee file.
Is there a HR depth?

Doom

Nody wrote: »

Well sorry to burst your bubble but you don't appear to be "a good worker" if your manager has to point out your lack of communication, productivity etc. multiple times. The fact you decided not to tell about something which you admit yourself could have significant ramifications with out you knowing it to a client with out telling your manager because you thought everything was ok (knowing that you did not know the system) is not exactly a glowing character reference either.

If I was you I'd walk in there and be honest about the mistake and try to sharpen up on your work style going forward; If you had told your boss about it you'd at most had a slap on your wrist; now you have a disciplinary instead. I'd say the likely outcome would be verbal or first written warning as likely outcomes (if there's any warning at all).

Please don't give advice as you are wrong, they cannot give a written 1st, verbal only.
Unless they are thinking of gross negligence, stealing or H&S breech, which none of this is, the person realize their mistake and corrected it...imo they understand how to do their job...Anyone can may mistakes, but not all can fix them.

Nody

Doom wrote: »

Please don't give advice as you are wrong, they cannot give a written 1st, verbal only.
Unless they are thinking of gross negligence, stealing or H&S breech, which none of this is, the person realize their mistake and corrected it...imo they understand how to do their job...Anyone can may mistakes, but not all can fix them.

Right back at you; he's a a disciplinary hearing and they can give any sanction from none to fired. There is no law that require them to give a verbal first and I've gone through enough hearings to have seen most calls being made.

Doom

Nody wrote: »

Right back at you; he's a a disciplinary hearing and they can give any sanction from none to fired. There is no law that require them to give a verbal first and I've gone through enough hearings to have seen most calls being made.

So have I pal, you are giving the impression the op is fcuked. ..there is employment law in Ireland. Like I said it is quite hard to fire someone these days...it only happens when people don't know their rights or have seriously fcuked up. Companies should have a clearly laid out disciplinary procedure or they can leave themselves exposed to been sued in court.

Doom

Nera...
http://www.labourcourt.ie/en/What_You_Should_Know/Ending_the_Employment_Relationship/Ending_the_Employment_Relationship.html#tabs-5

Op... go look up your rights and don't be afraid to defend yourself...best of luck

Bepolite

While Nody is a bit blunt in what he's saying he is absolutely correct. A disciplinary can involve any sanction and stages can be skipped if the infraction warrants. The only requirement is that if there is a possibility of the employee being fired they must be informed of this ahead of time.

Doom

Bepolite wrote: »

While Nody is a bit blunt in what he's saying he is absolutely correct. A disciplinary can involve any sanction and stages can be skipped if the infraction warrants. The only requirement is that if there is a possibility of the employee being fired they must be informed of this ahead of time.

Its not North Korea we're living in, I successfully got a work colleague reinstated to his job because the company jumped the gun thinking they could do what they wanted. ...its very prevalent in Irish companies...In my experience Irish management are very badly informed when it comes to workers rights, a lot of them think they are Kim Jong-un at these meetings

Bepolite

Doom wrote: »

Its not North Korea we're living in, I successfully got a work colleague reinstated to his job because the company jumped the gun thinking they could do what they wanted. ...its very prevalent in Irish companies...In my experience Irish management are very badly informed when it comes to workers rights, a lot of them think they are Kim Jong-un at these meetings

It's not North Korea, it's not the US, it's not even France or the UK although certain EU laws and decisions would have an impact on our employment law. Irish companies can indeed be ill-informed about an employees rights, hence the reason I always suggest seeking proper legal advice. You yourself have got it wrong and refuse to admit it so I'm sure there are a few manager out there that do the same.

From what the OP has said this company seems to be following best practice, and while I am no fan of poorly run disciplinary procedures, a company has a right to conduct legitimate hearings and make decisions with under performing staff. Doing so fairly lets everyone know where they stand and what needs to be done to address the situation.

Ironically it's the socialist (more communist to be fair) agenda of a job for everyone that leads to poor performers being allowed to remain in their jobs despite a real reason to sack someone for being incompetent. Rights of the employee and employer have to be balanced.

Doom

'Generally a dismissal is presumed to be unfair unless your employer can show substantial grounds to justify it'

From nera.

Bepolite

Doom wrote: »

'Generally a dismissal is presumed to be unfair unless your employer can show substantial grounds to justify it'

From nera.

So? That's a given. That doesn't mean that a given act can't be gross misconduct - e.g. theft or so serious as to warrant an immediate written warning. Are you suggesting that if someone lifts money out of a shop till and spends it on hookers, they have to get a verbal warning, followed by two written warnings before they can be dismissed? Does that not seem a bit silly?

Doom

'under performing staff' (your words)......the person made an error and corrected it, I would not consider that as been deserving of any disciplinary action, good luck to the company if they take any action against him, because their grounds are fairly poor.

Doom

Bepolite wrote: »

So? That's a given. That doesn't mean that a given act can't be gross misconduct - e.g. theft or so serious as to warrant an immediate written warning. Are you suggesting that if someone lifts money out of a shop till and spends it on hookers, they have to get a verbal warning, followed by two written warnings before they can be dismissed? Does that not seem a bit silly?

I've already said stealing IS gross misconduct and along with H&S breeches and THAT they would more than likely result in been fired...have you ever been in the labour court...I have 3 times, judge's are great a spotting bull**** from employees and employers.

I rest my case..... :-)

Bepolite

Doom wrote: »

'under performing staff' (your words)......the person made an error and corrected it, I would not consider that as been deserving of any disciplinary action, good luck to the company if they take any action against him, because their grounds are fairly poor.

That's your prerogative but if you did think it was you'd do exactly as described, investigate and then hand the file over to an independent party to make a decision.

As I've advised if the OP is in any doubt as to his rights consult a legal professional.

Bepolite

Doom wrote: »

I've already said stealing IS gross misconduct and along with H&S breeches and THAT they would more than likely result in been fired...have you ever been in the labour court...I have 3 times, judge's are great a spotting bull**** from employees and employers.

I rest my case..... :-)

Rest it all you like it's pretty clear you've absolutely no idea what you're talking about from your posts. I can only hope you're not involved in any employee representation because it's gung-ho, half informed, the management are always wrong, even when they bend over backwards to do things properly attitude that has ruined the union movement both here and in the UK.

Eoin

Doom wrote: »

'under performing staff' (your words)......the person made an error and corrected it, I would not consider that as been deserving of any disciplinary action, good luck to the company if they take any action against him, because their grounds are fairly poor.

You have no idea if this is the case - please don't comment on what you think the OP's or company's odds of being successful are. None of us here - including the OP by the sounds of things - know the full potential impact of the mistake.

Doom

Bepolite wrote: »

Rest it all you like it's pretty clear you've absolutely no idea what you're talking about from your posts. I can only hope you're not involved in any employee representation because it's gung-ho, half informed, the management are always wrong, even when they bend over backwards to do things properly attitude that has ruined the union movement both here and in the UK.

Ha ha.... I can only laugh at that comment.

LegacyUser

Thanks for your replies everyone.
I intend to ask someone to come as a witness. He is another 3rd party manager from another department, who has given me great advice in the past.
Is there a legal minimum notice period I must be given when the meeting is scheduled?
I was given 24 working hours.

Also, am I correct in saying that it is illegal to never provide an employee with a copy of the company disciplinary procedure? I believe unfair dismissal cases have been won purely on the basis of this?
I had never seen ours prior to all this, we were never given a company handbook.

Doom

Eoin wrote: »

You have no idea if this is the case - please don't comment on what you think the OP's or company's odds of being successful are. None of us here - including the OP by the sounds of things - know the full potential impact of the mistake.

Mod if you dish out comments for all, please do not single my post out...

Eoin

Doom wrote: »

Mod if you dish out comments for all, please do not single my post out...

The difference is that you've stated facts that are inaccurate and you're now strongly hinting that the company would have no case against the OP. This forum is not for guessing the outcome of a case.

Report any specific posts you want (not mine again, please) and we will look at them. PM me if you want any more clarification.

Doom

vasewater wrote: »

Thanks for your replies everyone.
I intend to ask someone to come as a witness. He is another 3rd party manager from another department, who has given me great advice in the past.
Is there a legal minimum notice period I must be given when the meeting is scheduled?
I was given 24 working hours.

Also, am I correct in saying that it is illegal to never provide an employee with a copy of the company disciplinary procedure? I believe unfair dismissal cases have been won purely on the basis of this?
I had never seen ours prior to all this, we were never given a company handbook.

If there is one you should have been given a copy of it or reference it in your contract.

Bepolite

vasewater wrote: »

Thanks for your replies everyone.
I intend to ask someone to come as a witness. He is another 3rd party manager from another department, who has given me great advice in the past.
Is there a legal minimum notice period I must be given when the meeting is scheduled?
I was given 24 working hours.

For the investigation or the disciplinary hearing? The disciplinary would involve you being given all the evidence, time to review and prepare a defence. There is no set time but 24 hours seems unreasonable to me.

vasewater wrote: »

Also, am I correct in saying that it is illegal to never provide an employee with a copy of the company disciplinary procedure? I believe unfair dismissal cases have been won purely on the basis of this?
I had never seen ours prior to all this, we were never given a company handbook.

Unfair dismissal is usually (in my experience) a lack for fair procedures rather than the decision made. Not getting the disciplinary procedure wouldn't be an issue per se but you're entitled to 'natural justice' which involves:

-The right to confront witnesses
-The right to all the evidence against you
-The right to notice of possible dismissal and the right to prepare a defence.
-The right to a witness to take notes. In some cases you have the right to representation but in practice this is rare.

It would obviously be better to provide you with the companies disciplinary procedure along with the evidence 'pack'.

Doom

Your defense could lay in the fact that you were not given a copy nor informed of the companies disciplinary procedure, so how did you know yo may have broken it.....
-From your bother in the Union :-)

Bepolite

Doom wrote: »

Your defense could lay in the fact that you were not given a copy nor informed of the companies disciplinary procedure, so how did you know yo may have broken it.....
-From your bother in the Union :-)

If dismissed possibly, but as already stated the OP would have to be informed a head of time if the sanction of dismissal is on the table. It's very unlikely that a warning would be overturned on that basis.

The OP clearly understands he made an error and a disciplinary process will not give an exhaustive list things that may lead to disciplinary proceedings.

OP can you clarify what stage you are at?

Doom

Bepolite wrote: »

Unfair dismissal is usually (in my experience) a lack for fair procedures rather than the decision made. Not getting the disciplinary procedure wouldn't be an issue per se

This is mostly bollox....IMO

tatli_lokma

vasewater wrote: »

Also, am I correct in saying that it is illegal to never provide an employee with a copy of the company disciplinary procedure? I believe unfair dismissal cases have been won purely on the basis of this?
I had never seen ours prior to all this, we were never given a company handbook.

You are correct, but bear mind you do not physically have to be given a hard copy of the handbook/procedure. Many companies make this information available on their intranet where staff can easily access it so best to check if it is indeed on there or not before using this as a defence.

Doom

That was an interesting post you removed 'bepolite'....

Bepolite

Doom wrote: »

That was an interesting post you removed 'bepolite'....

I decided not to pull the thread off topic. Please feel free to start a thread on the standards of decision making in specific situations in Ireland, we can continue the discussion there. Please feel free to cite any decisions of the labour court you'd like to discuss.

Doom

Eoin wrote: »

You have no idea if this is the case - please don't comment on what you think the OP's or company's odds of being successful are. None of us here - including the OP by the sounds of things - know the full potential impact of the mistake.

Yes we do.... mod you are jumping the gun too, or are you turning into a 'thanks' whore for BEPOLITE' :-)

From the op's original post...
'our engineers that there were no side effects to my mistake and no effects on the client funds'

Doom

Bepolite wrote: »

I decided not to pull the thread off topic. Please feel free to start a thread on the standards of decision making in specific situations in Ireland, we can continue the discussion there. Please feel free to cite any decisions of the labour court you'd like to discuss.

Nah....

Bepolite

Doom wrote: »

Yes we do.... mod you are jumping the gun too, or are you turning been a 'thanks' whore for BEPOLITE' :-)

From the op's original post...
'our engineers that there were no side effects to my mistake and no effects on the client funds'

The OP also stated that there were other issues that management wished to address and that one of the biggest problem was his lack of reporting of what had happened. We've no idea of the background to the mistake and what compliance procedures the OP's industry have to adhere to.

You seem to be suggesting that there must be consequence to a mistake before a company can take action. That is simply not the case, it is also not the case that a catastrophic loss to the business due to an error on the part of an employee attracts a greater sanction.

I fail to see why you are getting so worked up about this entire thing to be honest. You've demonstrated you don't have all the answers, contributed some good points yourself and disagreed with some points I and others have raised pretty much the way every internet Q&A works which is why you're mad if you rely on what's written here and don't consult a legal professional.

blindsider

vasewater wrote: »

Hi,
I recently made a mistake in work on one of our client's accounts. I basically clicked the wrong button and accidentally froze their spending. [Poorly designed IT system that does not have safeguards e.g. "Are you sure you want to freeze this account?"] I immediately B]Define immediately - < 5 mins?[/B undid my action and the account and funds on it looked back to normal afterwards, [You'll need to be able to describe this in the hearing] so to me there was no need for concern.

However, someone else in the company noticed the action and undo on the account and asked my manager about it. My manager asked me about it and straight away I told him what happened. He has since had an investigation meeting with me. He has confirmed with our engineers that there were no side effects to my mistake and no effects on the client funds. However he has a major issue with the fact that I did not mention the mistake. [Is there a policy/procedure that says you must/should?]I said that I felt I had no reason to, since everything looked back to normal afterwards. He asked if I know enough about our systems to know 100% that there could be no repercussions to my action [Does he know enough to know there was a possible concern, or is he bluffing?]and I said no as I am not engineer but based on everything I DO know, there was nothing to worry about.

.

How long are you with the company? Permanent contract?
When did you last have a Performance Review? Did it happen on time? How did it go? Did your Mgr give you things to work on? (Communication skills, productivity?) Did you work on them?

Has anyone else in the company made this mistake? How was it handled? If yes, that set a precedent.

Definitely bring a witness to the 'hearing' - a manager-level person is better.

Take notes.

Sign nothing - take it away with you and reaqd it carefully - get advice if necessary.

Keep your cool - do not get angry or impatient - practise repeating the same key phrases (your story) and smiling.

Be empathetic - the person on the other side of the table probably doesn't want to be there either.

For the future - charm offensive on your boss. Work on communications and productivity - get the work done on time and properly. Team-work is important!

If your boss is being unreasonable, put up with it for a bit - if this doesn't change, ask what the issue is. Address it. Keep notes of any conversations - I'd be surprised if he isn't. You'll need to go slightly more than half way on this - but not too much.

Last resort - if it really doesn't work out, get an internal transfer, or dust off the CV.

Best of luck!

smcgiff

It's not the end of the world OP. Unless the company has a specific policy that you breached it seems they are being heavy handed.

I doubt your job is (or could) be on the line going by your OP. Blindsider has given good advice.

Good Luck.

LegacyUser

Bepolite wrote: »

If dismissed possibly, but as already stated the OP would have to be informed a head of time if the sanction of dismissal is on the table. It's very unlikely that a warning would be overturned on that basis.

The OP clearly understands he made an error and a disciplinary process will not give an exhaustive list things that may lead to disciplinary proceedings.

OP can you clarify what stage you are at?

I have been told that this hearing "may lead to disciplinary action up to and including dismissal. Equally, the outcome may be that no disciplinary action will be taken."

Re: our handbook- Our company HQ is in another country, and the bulk of our employees work in that office. Anything HR related on the company intranet is based on that country's law, not Irish law.

Borzoi

Hi OP - if you've any doubt about your job security you need to lawyer up now. A small outlay could save you a lot of grief down the road. On no account use another employee as your representative, they have theirown career to mind, and that will be their priority.

Bepolite

vasewater wrote: »

I have been told that this hearing "may lead to disciplinary action up to and including dismissal. Equally, the outcome may be that no disciplinary action will be taken."

Re: our handbook- Our company HQ is in another country, and the bulk of our employees work in that office. Anything HR related on the company intranet is based on that country's law, not Irish law.

To clarify you've only been given 24 hours notice on this disciplinary? Seems odd given it's Saturday night now.

The disciplinary procedure might be based on another countries law, that doesn't mean you haven't been provided with it or that it isn't complaint with Irish Law.

While I don't fully agree with not involving a willing witness (I do to some degree) get a solicitor on to this straight away if you think you're being rail-roaded, it's a good idea to have one to consult anyway.

Best of luck OP - please keep us updated I hope it all goes well and is a storm in a tea-cup. I have nothing but sympathy for you I know how stressful it is.

LegacyUser

blindsider wrote: »

How long are you with the company? Permanent contract?
When did you last have a Performance Review? Did it happen on time? How did it go? Did your Mgr give you things to work on? (Communication skills, productivity?) Did you work on them?

I'm there 2 years. I made a side-step move to my current role after a year and a half, so I am 6 months in this role (if it makes any difference, I never got a new contract or was told there would be a new probationary period).[/quote]

blindsider wrote: »

Has anyone else in the company made this mistake? How was it handled? If yes, that set a precedent.

Yes, 2 people - including the manager- have made huge mistakes. Both obviously kept their jobs, but I have no idea if they reported their own mistakes or what. My manager has specifically said that the issue he has is that I made a mistake AND didn't report it.

The disciplinary procedure might be based on another countries law, that doesn't mean you haven't been provided with it or that it isn't complaint with Irish Law.

None of our HR intraweb content mentions a disciplinary procedure at all. Is it worth pointing out in the disciplinary hearing that I have never received a copy of our disciplinary procedure before now, and was not aware when I made the mistake that I could have been breaking it? If I mentioned that legally I should have received one when I joined, would this do me any harm?
It would at least let them know I've researched my rights?

blindsider

vasewater wrote: »

I have been told that this hearing "may lead to disciplinary action up to and including dismissal. Equally, the outcome may be that no disciplinary action will be taken."

Re: our handbook- Our company HQ is in another country, and the bulk of our employees work in that office. Anything HR related on the company intranet is based on that country's law, not Irish law.

Unless I'm very much mistaken, your contract of employment must be governed by Irish law. Your contract of employment - you do have one? - would have to be particularly convoluted for your contract to be based e.g. on US law. I can't see how it could be done - but you never know.

http://www.employmentrights.ie/en/What_You_Should_Know/Terms_of_Employment/

In short, this is my opinion, based on what you've told us:

i) Bring a witness to the meeting.

ii) If they make a good case (you'll know yourself), accept a verbal warning, but confirm (i writing or email)that it's for a defined period - usually 6 months. This is sometimes called a 'step-back' process, where the Verbal is removed from your file after 6 months.

iii) As per my earlier post, go on the charm offensive for 6 months. In early, leave late, communicate and be productive. ADD VALUE!

iv) Use this time to re-evaluate - is this the job for me, and can I build a good relationship with my boss. TBH most managers like team members who deliver - they're not too worried about personality - they're not in work to make friends. Like = have professional respect for.

v) From what you've told us, anything more than a Verbal is unreasonable - if they push for a Written warning, go legal. Ask for EVERYTHING in writing. (It really shouldn't come to this.)

Finally, I have a small concern that your boss is making a fairly big deal (involving HR and being formal) about a seemingly trivial incident which resulted in no loss or harm. There may be regulatory issues, but surely the computer system doesn't allow you to make major changes without confirmation - if it does, can the system itself be compliant?

Anyway, that's my 2c worth. Hope it turns out ok for you.

didntgotoplan

I'm in the middle of a similar situation as the OP (Good luck with your meeting next week, mine is on Tuesday) and I was just looking around for information on disciplinary meetings and just want to say thanks to blindsider for the info.

wuffly

I think this is all a bit over the top, they are likely having a disciplinary meeting to show they have investigated what happened on the account and to close it off fully. Any action on an account like this would be flagged in an audit and questions asked, his manager needs to be able to say it was investigated fully and no fraud etc... was found, and he has the report to prove it. Or if for some reason the client managed to find out they would also expect and be in titled to find out what was happening on their account and know it didn't go un-investigated. Its more likely this is just procedure, this hearing my also benefit the OP and clear them of an accusations of willful wrong doing. By all means bring a witness if you feel you need to, but it might not be as bad as you and everyone else seem to be making out. Good luck either way

LegacyUser

blindsider wrote: »

Unless I'm very much mistaken, your contract of employment must be governed by Irish law. Your contract of employment - you do have one? - would have to be particularly convoluted for your contract to be based e.g. on US law. I can't see how it could be done - but you never know.

http://www.employmentrights.ie/en/What_You_Should_Know/Terms_of_Employment/

I just re-read my contract and it is based on Irish law as it mentions the Working Time Directive.[/quote]

blindsider wrote: »

In short, this is my opinion, based on what you've told us:

i) Bring a witness to the meeting.

I have asked a manager I am friendly with from another department if he will do it, am waiting to hear back.

blindsider wrote: »

Finally, I have a small concern that your boss is making a fairly big deal (involving HR and being formal) about a seemingly trivial incident which resulted in no loss or harm. There may be regulatory issues, but surely the computer system doesn't allow you to make major changes without confirmation - if it does, can the system itself be compliant?

This is an area I am going to focus on in my defense.
Before I joined this team, another team member made a HUGE mistake with massive repercussions, using a tool that had no safeguards. As a result of his mistake, that tool had a number of safeguards put in place. But yet no checks were done to make sure the other tools were safe- The tool I used has absolutely none. There isn't even a nag to say "Are you sure you want to do this?".
I am going to argue that, because this tool has no safeguards, I assumed that was because it was 0 risk and didn't need them, because surely ALL of our tools would have been audited after the last employee made such a huge mistake.

On reporting the mistake, I am going to say that our manager has never given guidelines as to when we should do this, so I assumed this was down to our own judgement. I think I will also point out that I wasn't aware of breaking any displinary procedures since I was never informed of what they were.

smcgiff

vasewater wrote: »

I just re-read my contract and it is based on Irish law as it mentions the Working Time Directive.



I have asked a manager I am friendly with from another department if he will do it, am waiting to hear back.



This is an area I am going to focus on in my defense.
Before I joined this team, another team member made a HUGE mistake with massive repercussions, using a tool that had no safeguards. As a result of his mistake, that tool had a number of safeguards put in place. But yet no checks were done to make sure the other tools were safe- The tool I used has absolutely none. There isn't even a nag to say "Are you sure you want to do this?".
I am going to argue that, because this tool has no safeguards, I assumed that was because it was 0 risk and didn't need them, because surely ALL of our tools would have been audited after the last employee made such a huge mistake.

On reporting the mistake, I am going to say that our manager has never given guidelines as to when we should do this, so I assumed this was down to our own judgement. I think I will also point out that I wasn't aware of breaking any displinary procedures since I was never informed of what they were.

Sounds well thought out.

Bepolite

The problem you're going to have is that they will fire that right back at you. It's not a breach of a disciplinary procedure, its an action that has resulted in the disciplinary procedure being invoked. What you're going to have to say is I didn't know X action would lead to disciplinary action. It's weak as there will never be an exhaustive list of what will result in disciplinary action.

The other side of this will be that you didn't know there was a disciplinary procedure, which I can't see doing you much good, especially if it then turns out you should have been aware of it from your contract/intranet.

Best of luck OP.

Ray13

Doom wrote: »

Please don't give advice as you are wrong, they cannot give a written 1st, verbal only.
Unless they are thinking of gross negligence, stealing or H&S breech, which none of this is, the person realize their mistake and corrected it...imo they understand how to do their job...Anyone can may mistakes, but not all can fix them.

They can give any warning they want to, be it 1st verbal, 1st written, or even final.... The company decides what is 'gross'..... that said, it does not mean that the company's decision is fair..... and if the OP feels it is unfair, then they should seek an appeal, if that fails, seek redress from the Rights Commissioner / Labour Courts etc.

Doom

Ray13 wrote: »

They can give any warning they want to, be it 1st verbal, 1st written, or even final.... The company decides what is 'gross'..... that said, it does not mean that the company's decision is fair..... and if the OP feels it is unfair, then they should seek an appeal, if that fails, seek redress from the Rights Commissioner / Labour Courts etc.

That's bollox...that would only happened you sit there and take it.

didntgotoplan

My meeting was changed to today and I kept calm, brought a witness who knew all about what they were telling me I did wrong and gave my side with records of the conversations that happened. I've another meeting at the end of the week to provide the outcome but it is not leading to disciplinary procedure they said.

Mrs OBumble

Doom wrote: »

That's bollox...that would only happened you sit there and take it.

Ahh, no, it's fact.

There is no legal requirement to go through a particular series of warnings, because there are some offences that are so serious that they go straight to a final warning or even a termination.





Also:

In future, please try to make posts that are a little more helpful than "that's bollox". Either link to a reputable source which backs up your point, or post more clearly if you're trying to express an opinion that what is happening is unfair irrespective of whether it's legal or not (eg "that sucks"). Just saying "that's bollox" implies you think it's factually, but are not explaining why.

Doom

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Ahh, no, it's fact.

There is no legal requirement to go through a particular series of warnings, because there are some offences that are so serious that they go straight to a final warning or even a termination.





Also:

In future, please try to make posts that are a little more helpful than "that's bollox". Either link to a reputable source which backs up your point, or post more clearly if you're trying to express an opinion that what is happening is unfair irrespective of whether it's legal or not (eg "that sucks"). Just saying "that's bollox" implies you think it's factually, but are not explaining why.

It is bollox, because a company will be putting itself in a very weak position for unfair dismissal if it did not follow a reasonable procedure and by common use, (verbal and written warning before been sacked) it is in fact the norm, i've witnessed persons having disciplinary action wiped by the labour court because managers jumped the gun instead of following reasonable procedures

Any how I'm happy the op is not going to be disciplined for this, imo I have already made some helpful remarks and will continue to do so.

And mod...I've already mentioned about more serious action if warranted by certain Actions....You Should Read My Previous posts

Bepolite

Doom wrote: »

Any how I'm happy the op is not going to be disciplined for this, imo I have already made some helpful remarks and will continue to do so.

OP is still facing disciplinary action.

OP stay calm in any meeting. Do not go off on one in an attempt 'not to take it', that will be completely counter productive. You have the appeals process and the labour court if you need them.