M5 Touring to Commercial?

oo7tk

Hey im looking at getting a car that sticks out from the crowd to promote my business in from the uk and just have a question about the VRT rate..

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201310129248577/sort/default/usedcars/postcode/bt39jp/onesearchad/used%2Cnearlynew%2Cnew/model/m5/page/1/make/bmw/body-type/estate/radius/1500?logcode=p

This is like the estate car in question, it will be brought in a passenger vehicle but i will be getting it converted professionally to a commercial for my business... I have all the particulars such as PPS and VAT numbers...

So my question is

1 - Do i get the car converted and tested when i bring it into the country and then bring it to a VRT office to pay the VRT at 13.3% for a commercial vehicle OR would i have to pay the rate as a passenger vehicle???

2 - Do i have to bring it to someone in particular to do the conversion affiliated with VRT or do they just test it??

Any more info greatly appreciated thanks....

PLUG71

Im not100% sure but you would have to get an engineers report to prove its a permanent change.

I should imagine the insurance would be an issue.

Probably best to convert in the UK so that the paperwork states its a commercial when you VRT it.

Awaits correction from better informed peeps

TouchingVirus

OSI wrote: »

Please don't. For the love of god don't ruin an M5 for the sake of cheap tax.

Indeed, please don't do this. It doesn't take that much to stick out in the world of commercial vehicles and especially not butchering one of only 222 RHD E61 M5s ever produced

oo7tk

Its a car ill be keeping so its not about ruining a car is my money my car ill do what i like with it, simples.... :p

I have an E46 M3 as a daily driver so im not going to be paying over 2k a year for 2 vehicles not a chance... My girlfriend will be using the M3 as a daily and ill be using the M5 or an RS4 Avant BTW

Just need the 2 questions i asked answered lads thanks...

mickdw

I didn't think that was possible anymore.

dougie-lampkin

In order to clear it as a commercial, the V5 must say it's a commercial. So it boils down to where it's easier to declare a passenger -> goods declaration. When you factor into that the extra cost of VRT on a passenger car here, you might find it cheaper overall to do the conversion in the UK. I can't find anything online about the declaration procedure for the UK though.

I for one would love to see a commercial M5, and just think how much it's going to skyrocket in value with €333 tax

Eric Cartman

VRT rate is based on the EU vehicle type when it came out of the factory so you will be paying full VRT at 36%

Converting it to commercial will leave you with only the 2 front seats as even an estate wont qualify for crewcab status.

You'd be ruining the M5

the only advantage to doing this is 333 a year in tax instead of 1809. Your saving 1476 a year which if you can afford to put petrol in an M5 and insure one should be nothing to you.

A propper conversion with an engineers report will wipe out any savings for the first 2 years anyway.

resale value will be awful.

oo7tk

mickdw wrote: »

I didn't think that was possible anymore.

Its defo possible i just dont know what rate VRT ill be paying, id imagine it will be the 13.3% commercial as ill have all the work done before i go to the VRT office... Just thought someone would know here if not ill ring them Monday..

Also i converted an even rarer jeep not so long ago, a Pajero Evo passed all engeineer tests no probs and sold it on and the new buyer put the seats back in taxed it and no problems..

PLUG71

Well said

After all you will be basically removing seats so not ruining the car.

I've seen a few high powered sport coupes that have had this done.:eek:

oo7tk

dougie-lampkin wrote: »

In order to clear it as a commercial, the V5 must say it's a commercial. So it boils down to where it's easier to declare a passenger -> goods declaration. When you factor into that the extra cost of VRT on a passenger car here, you might find it cheaper overall to do the conversion in the UK. I can't find anything online about the declaration procedure for the UK though.

I for one would love to see a commercial M5, and just think how much it's going to skyrocket in value with €333 tax

But every commercial jeep in Ireland is brought in as a passenger vehicle and vrt'd as a commercial so i cant see the difference with an estate.. Im sure on a V5 for a Discovery it would still be a passenger vehicle??

I defo know lads have brought in jeeps and converted them and vrt'd them as commercial but its 6 months ago or more, maybe ill just have to ask them myself..

dougie-lampkin

Eric Cartman wrote: »

VRT rate is based on the EU vehicle type when it came out of the factory so you will be paying full VRT at 36%

Not so, mainly because there's no such thing as a car derived van from the factory. If you buy a new Golf car-van, a passenger Golf is converted by VAG Ireland.

Eric Cartman wrote: »

the only advantage to doing this is 333 a year in tax instead of 1809. Your saving 1476 a year which if you can afford to put petrol in an M5 and insure one should be nothing to you.

A propper conversion with an engineers report will wipe out any savings for the first 2 years anyway.

It would be a long term saving as you say, the conversion alone will make up the difference in tax for year one, not to mind declaring the conversion. I'd imagine using it for business purposes with private tax and insurance is a minefield also.

Eric Cartman wrote: »

resale value will be awful.

I do have to disagree with this. If the conversion is done to a high standard, the car's value will probably go up. This is Ireland, where the value of a car is inversely proportional to motor tax. An M5 with €333 will sell like hotcakes.

PLUG71 wrote: »

Well said

After all you will be basically removing seats so not ruining the car.

I've seen a few high powered sport coupes that have had this done.:eek:

http://cars.donedeal.co.uk/vintagecars-for-sale/300zx-tax-only-333/5889525

Nom

Eric Cartman

dougie-lampkin wrote: »

Not so, mainly because there's no such thing as a car derived van from the factory. If you buy a new Golf car-van, a passenger Golf is converted by VAG Ireland.

Yes but they are under the guise of the tax man a 'manufacturer' they get the model type approved and then sell it. But ill rephrase my statement

the vrt class is based on the EU vehicle type that it was when its keys were handed to its first owner. You will still pay 36% on an M5 as none of them left bmw's showrooms as a commercial vehicle.

dougie-lampkin

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Yes but they are under the guise of the tax man a 'manufacturer' they get the model type approved and then sell it. But ill rephrase my statement

the vrt class is based on the EU vehicle type that it was when its keys were handed to its first owner. You will still pay 36% on an M5 as none of them left bmw's showrooms as a commercial vehicle.

I don't think so. On revenue's classification they don't discriminate between an N1 and a converted M1 vehicle. See the table here, it considers both EU classes to be category B.

I am open to correction if you have anything showing the opposite, as I've never cleared a commercial myself.

PLUG71

There is also a guy that converts Range Rovers into the classic tax band?:)

cabb8ge

Eric Cartman wrote: »

===

the only advantage to doing this is 333 a year in tax instead of 1809. Your saving 1476 a year which if you can afford to put petrol in an M5 and insure one should be nothing to you.===.

If it owned by company there are more advantages
- company money buy car
- BIK on commercial 5% of new value regardless of quantity of business miles
- all petrol, and running costs paid by company. For example, €100 petrol from company account, if privste car and person taxed at higher rate they need €100 after tax taken to buy same amount of petrol. Many people pay higher rate of tax on much of income.

I not like to see M5 commercial but as mention by OP it his money etc'

hi5

http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/vrt/vehicle-conversions.html#section2

Stallingrad

Not sure what message you want to send out, but there is an X6 locally with the company name all over it. I never think good things about that company.

L-M

PLUG71 wrote: »

There is also a guy that converts Range Rovers into the classic tax band?:)

No, he just take the body off a newer one and puts it on the chassis of an older RR, completely different.

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Yes but they are under the guise of the tax man a 'manufacturer' they get the model type approved and then sell it. But ill rephrase my statement

the vrt class is based on the EU vehicle type that it was when its keys were handed to its first owner. You will still pay 36% on an M5 as none of them left bmw's showrooms as a commercial vehicle.

When did this change? It's been a few years since I was in the trade, but no vehicle ever came into this country as commercial, they were all converted when they came over here. Hence the whole epidemic of people putting seats back into them in 08.

It also is possible to convert them on a commercial basis, and you wouldn't have to pay they full vrt rate.

Also, saying it's ruining the car is absolute and utter nonsense. It's still the exact same car, with less weight... I really can't fathom how 3 people have said it's ruining the car...

R.O.R

Pretty sure all converted commercials now need type approval.

Not sure how expensive that is, but when manufactures have to think twice about doing it , it's probably not cheap.

L-M

R.O.R wrote: »

Pretty sure all converted commercials now need type approval.

Not sure how expensive that is, but when manufactures have to think twice about doing it , it's probably not cheap.

Isn't that just based on the loadspace in the rear? I'm sure if a Focus van can pass, an estate would too.

Are they still doing the Passat estate commercial?

Eric Cartman

R.O.R wrote: »

Pretty sure all converted commercials now need type approval.

Not sure how expensive that is, but when manufactures have to think twice about doing it , it's probably not cheap.

judging by what the NSAI charge for any other inspections (cctv installers, electricians, ISO 9001 etc...) im going to wager youd break even on the VRT difference between 13 and 36 on a car more than 5 years old.

Eric Cartman

according to revenues site theres 4500 in the difference between passenger and commercial VRT. Considering the IVA requires a full engineers report and then the actual IVA certification itself , plus the conversion cost , I dont know if it would be worth it even.

L-M

Eric Cartman wrote: »

according to revenues site theres 4500 in the difference between passenger and commercial VRT. Considering the IVA requires a full engineers report and then the actual IVA certification itself , plus the conversion cost , I dont know if it would be worth it even.

Conversion cost? Take out the seats, disconnect the back windows, metal putty over the holes for the bolts...

Eric Cartman

Limerick man wrote: »

Conversion cost? Take out the seats, disconnect the back windows, metal putty over the holes for the bolts...

flat welded metal floor and an even partial bulkhead (normally a 4-5 inch lip above the floor) now required. not sure if the windows still have to be metal'd up but if they do those will have to be welded in too. rear seatbelts have to be fully removed including pretensioners so Id imagine some fancy wiring or possibly just an airbag module recode is needed. Also I think it has to be done by a registered coach/body builders.

L-M

Infairness, you could manufacture a floor pan with a lip. I would imagine any decent carpenter and a roll of 10 euro carpet/carpet glue would do the job. I've seen so many done, some shoddy as foook, passed no problem.

BarryM3

OP - don't forget that BIK on a commercial vehicle is much less when deciding whether you or the company owns the 'van'

Eric Cartman

Limerick man wrote: »

Infairness, you could manufacture a floor pan with a lip. I would imagine any decent carpenter and a roll of 10 euro carpet/carpet glue would do the job. I've seen so many done, some shoddy as foook, passed no problem.

that was all pre 2010 id say. its no longer coffin dodging civil servants in a tax office examining this, its now NSAI (or equivalent) engineers who actually know what they're doing.

however heres a deadly e39 M5 ute conversion that looks class
http://safirutza.wordpress.com/2008/10/09/bmw-m5-ute-conversion/

oo7tk

There does not need to be a metal floor just the seat belts welded up and ill be gettin a carpenter to make a proper floor like would be done in any other commercial..

I think i would have all done easy for €1500 - €2k, thats a saving of €2.5k and €1500 a year approx..

Ill just contact them on Monday and ask them the exact same thing and see what they say...

galwaytt

R.O.R wrote: »

Pretty sure all converted commercials now need type approval.

Not sure how expensive that is, but when manufactures have to think twice about doing it , it's probably not cheap.

^^^^^^^This.

We haven't converted anything in a while, but It is my understanding that you can only have as commercial now a model that is officially made as one by the manufacturer - I.e. If say BMW don't list and have type-approved that model as a commercial then you cannot register it as commercial here.

Not sure how that works for vehicles made before the date that came in.

L-M

BarryM3 wrote: »

OP - don't forget that BIK on a commercial vehicle is much less when deciding whether you or the company owns the 'van'

There is NO BIK with a commercial.

galwaytt wrote: »

^^^^^^^This.

We haven't converted anything in a while, but It is my understanding that you can only have as commercial now a model that is officially made as one by the manufacturer - I.e. If say BMW don't list and have type-approved that model as a commercial then you cannot register it as commercial here.

Not sure how that works for vehicles made before the date that came in.

But does any company list things are commercial? Aren't we the only country that needs this crap for tax reasons?

L-M

http://www.backroads.ie/forums/showthread.php?8261-Convert-private-car-to-commercial

Decent info there, seems fairly run of the mill.

oo7tk

Limerick man wrote: »

http://www.backroads.ie/forums/showthread.php?8261-Convert-private-car-to-commercial

Decent info there, seems fairly run of the mill.

"If the full VRT has been paid as in you're converting a currently registered private vehicle to commercial, then tint will suffice.

If you import a commercial into the country, so there won't be paid full vrt, then the windows will have to be welded up/blanked off fully.

I guess this difference is, where your confusion comes from. There are two sets of rules depending on what you start with."


Quoted from that link..

L-M

Welded up me arse.

You can just panel them and disconnect them.

If you are smart about it, it can definitely be done in such a way that it is completely reversible.

oo7tk

Limerick man wrote: »

Welded up me arse.

You can just panel them and disconnect them.

If you are smart about it, it can definitely be done in such a way that it is completely reversible.

As i did with my Paj Evo and as i plan to do, it all depends on the VRT really if i get an RS4 or M5..

Cheers

BarryM3

Limerick man wrote: »

There is NO BIK with a commercial.

There is if you use the vehicle for private use, which includes taking it home.

http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/it/leaflets/benefit-in-kind/private-use-vans.html

L-M

BarryM3 wrote: »

There is if you use the vehicle for private use, which includes taking it home.

http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/it/leaflets/benefit-in-kind/private-use-vans.html

It's a notional pay that is added onto your pay, your taxed on the whole lot and then the notional pay is subracted again. It's pittance, and it's not BIK. Could out to be a euro or two a week.

cabb8ge

BarryM3 wrote: »

There is if you use the vehicle for private use, which includes taking it home.

http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/it/leaflets/benefit-in-kind/private-use-vans.html

Limerick man wrote: »

It's a notional pay that is added onto your pay, your taxed on the whole lot and then the notional pay is subracted again. It's pittance, and it's not BIK. Could out to be a euro or two a week.

I think LimerickMan you not seem to understand the terms etc.

Notional pay is what monetary value assigned to a benefit to calculate how much tax employee to pay on the benefit, tax paid on private use of company van is BIK

Regarding the Pittance.......

Example 1 - No contribution from employee

A company van is made available to an employee for business and private use on 1 January 2007. The original market value of the van is €18,000. The employee is not required to make any contribution towards the provision or the running costs of the van.

The calculation of the notional pay is as follows:

€18,000 x 5% = €900

Notional pay of €900 (€17.30 per week / €75 per month) must be added to the employee’s money wages or salary for the purposes of calculating PAYE and PRSI.

If employee paying tax at lower rate than weekly tax on the notional pay in example 1 will be small, €23/month to be precision. For it to be as small as €1 or €2 week either the value of van new to be half of €18,000 or else maybe as in example 2 employee is required to make good the sum of €500 or so to emplyer.

Now if someone taxed at higher rate and they get van that €50k new than they will be paying 4/5 times the BIK as person in example 1.

Again it BIK.

If you still not believe me see bottom of page BarryM3 link to....

Exemption from benefit in kind charge in certain circumstances

No taxable benefit will arise in respect of the private use of company van where all of the following conditions are met: -

the van is supplied by the employer to the employee for the purposes of the employee's work
the employee is required by the employer to bring the van home after work
apart from travelling from work to home and back to work, other private use of the van by the employee is forbidden by the employer, and there is in fact no other private use
in the course of his or her work, the employee spends at least 80% of his or her time away from the premises of the employer to which he or she is attached.
This exemption applies to company vans only.

Stavros Murphy

OSI wrote: »

Please don't. For the love of god don't ruin an M5 for the sake of cheap tax.

TouchingVirus wrote: »

Indeed, please don't do this. It doesn't take that much to stick out in the world of commercial vehicles and especially not butchering one of only 222 RHD E61 M5s ever produced

Bring it on! Sounds deadly, commercialising a car that will otherwise languish in the UK. I'm gonna smile every time I see the lad with the commercial M5! What's with all the negging?? Do you think no-one is going to write a good few of them off arond lamp-posts? Or put them into storage never again to be driven? How savage would an M5 Van be?? Damn, I want one myself. Do people honestly think it couldn't be converted back at the drop of a hat??

Go for it OP, and give me a spin in it - do not let the dull drag you down - they'd have everyone in an Octavia diesel, in beige... doing 30..

L-M

I have a company van, I know how it works!

Stavros Murphy

OSI wrote: »

Are you high? Just because I appreciate an M5 touring exactly as it is, a practical, refined and immensely fast estate and don't want to see one molested into a van, does not mean I'd rather see everyone in a diesel Octavia.

Do you drive one? Honest question. If you do, great stuff. If you don't, it's just words.

You could convert an Aston into an ice-cream van and at some stage someone would convert it back, if it was a truly great car. The two conversions would also create nice work for someone in the trade too. Win win.

Donnelly117

oo7tk wrote: »

Hey im looking at getting a car that sticks out from the crowd to promote my business in from the uk and just have a question about the VRT rate..

I honestly think this is a giant waste of time. You say you want a vehicle that sticks out from the crowd...but I really dont think an estate M5 does. 90% of people on the road wont have a clue what an M5 is and the 10% who do will think its a stupid idea to turn it into a van (proved by the reactions of people here already). You might as well stick 4 exhausts and an MSport kit onto a 520d and save yourself the bother.
For a car to stick out from the crowd to attract business etc id expect it to be a hummer or muscle car etc, that you dont pass 20 of every time you leave the house. From the front and sides its just a 5 series touring. From the back as I said 90% of people wont know or care why is has 4 pipes...

ironclaw

Having read the thread, I'm quite curious as to why an RS4 or M5 is required for this business. Whats the business OP? Because unless its motor sport or something similar, very few in the larger population could tell the difference between a 5-Series / M and standard A4 / RS. Just really curious as its serious money to be putting into a promotional vehicle.

oo7tk

I asked 2 questions i did not ask for anybody's opinion on weather is a good or bad idea and i dont see what is SUCH a bad thing to do.. Everyone is entitled to say what they want but i know what im doing and im not ruining any car but each to their own..

I have one of the cleanest M3's in the country and this M5/RS4 will be the same even if there are no seats in the back..

Ill get back with the right answer when the VRT get back to me..

Stavros Murphy

oo7tk wrote: »

I asked 2 questions i did not ask for anybody's opinion on weather is a good or bad idea and i dont see what is SUCH a bad thing to do.. Everyone is entitled to say what they want but i know what im doing and im not ruining any car but each to their own..

I have one of the cleanest M3's in the country and this M5/RS4 will be the same even if there are no seats in the back..

Ill get back with the right answer when the VRT get back to me..

It's an awful pity whenever someone suggest somthing out of the ordinary they get slated. I reckon you should go for it and enjoy. But opinions are like aholes, everyone has one.

oo7tk

Stavros Murphy wrote: »

It's an awful pity whenever someone suggest somthing out of the ordinary they get slated. I reckon you should go for it and enjoy. But opinions are like aholes, everyone has one.

Dont worry nothing said here will put me off it, Fastest Commercial In The Country.. :P:P

gctest50

oo7tk wrote: »

Any more info greatly appreciated thanks....

have fun

http://www.autoblog.com/photos/bmw-m3-pickup/#photo-246733

Stavros Murphy

gctest50 wrote: »

have fun

http://www.autoblog.com/photos/bmw-m3-pickup/#photo-246733

ahh here, now don't be putting ideas like that into my head ffs.

Drummerboy08

I'm doing something similar with 6 brand new Mini's from the UK at the minute - big conversion done on all six, I've been told the vehicles will need type approval.

Going to chance my arm with the first one and see if I can get it VRT'd.

Del2005

oo7tk wrote: »

Dont worry nothing said here will put me off it, Fastest Commercial In The Country.. :P:P

A white van is the fastest commercial!

btkm8unsl0w5r4

Dont really think a M5 touring sticks out, they have privacy glass as standard so nobody will know you have molested it, so for 99% of people out there is will look like a old model 5 series estate. Buy a hummer if you want something that will stick out.

I drive a M5 and my initial thought was to become outraged at the though of doing this to a lovely car, however the more people make sh!te out of these nice cars, the better the resale on good examples.

L-M

How exactly is it doing anything wrong to the car?