Another Strike in the Offing.

roundymac

ww.irishexaminer.com/ireland/rugby-and-st-patricks-likely-targets-for-aer-lingus-strikes-255619.html
Here we go again, more uncertainty about EI flights.They are really starting to make it hard for people to want to fly with them. I'm due to fly with them around easter, I'm begining to regret for doing so. Only problem is here in Cork FR are the alternitive and a lot of their flights are bucket and spade one's and only once weekly at that which is not what I want. When will the unions and management wake up to the fact that if FR get their act together with their new T&Cs they will wipe out EI without having to actually buy them.

notharrypotter

Its Aer Lingus and DAA not just Aer Lingus.


It's over the Aviation pension scheme.

Only problem is here in Cork FR are the alternitive

DAA Staff are involved too so depending on which group everyone is effected.

No Fire cover no airport.

Not a simplistic solution to this situation.

roundymac

So they, just like the ESB at xmas can hold the country to ramson.

relaxed

The army can do fire cover surely. Run ESB stations they can't but fire cover is doable I am sure.

Growler!!!

relaxed wrote: »

The army can do fire cover surely. Run ESB stations they can't but fire cover is doable I am sure.

The army always get dragged in at some stage.

Airport fire services are a specialized branch and cannot simply be replaced by the nearest soldier who doesn't happen to be on duty that day.

Remember, the military in Ireland have suffered more cuts over the last few years than any other sector. Why? Because they cannot strike and are seen by the government as an easy target for cuts.

There are not enough spare bodies in barracks throughout the country to provide cover.

urajoke

Something wrong with standing up for your rights !

Sandwlch

urajoke wrote: »

Something wrong with standing up for your rights !

Agree. Something very wrong. Same as Dublin Bus and the ESB, these old semistate company employees are still living in the dark ages. Gob*****s.

Dacian

urajoke wrote: »

Something wrong with standing up for your rights !

Its a tricky situation. I agree that another strike action is not good for EI. (and I expect they will get most of the blame even though DAA is also involved.) However I expect this is just action by the worker reps as this issue is continuing to drag on and on it was supposed to be sorted by the deal agreed about 8-10 months ago.


The workers merely want what they are due, no issue here about looking for more than they put into the scheme.

As an example, my mate joined EI in 1997. She was told that the conditions of her contract meant she HAD TO join SIPTU and HAD TO pay into the company pension. She was unhappy with the union membership but didn't mind the pension.

In 2006 the looming gap in the pension fund was telegraphed to all sides (DAA, EI, SRT, unions etc) However since then EI have continued to force current staff to pay into a pension which is in danger of collapsing. My friend would prefer if she could stop paying into it and start her own pension with whatever she is entitled to from the IASS (Irish Aviation Superannuation Scheme)

Only in 2010 did EI start a new pension scheme for their new employees. Meanwhile every month current EI staff are paying into a scheme that if it collapsed tomorrow will mean they will lose up to 90% of their entitlement.

My friend has absolutely no interest in striking or even industrial action but she has been waiting for at least 5 years for this problem to be sorted. Her employer continues to deduct cash from her salary that she may never see again. (Under Irish Law current pensioners get looked after before those still working) Yet EI continue to parrot the response that they are not liable for the shortfall.

KCAccidental

Sandwlch wrote: »

Agree. Something very wrong. Same as Dublin Bus and the ESB, these old semistate company employees are still living in the dark ages. Gob*****s.

I know, just like those crappy old semi-states like Vita Cortex and Marks & Spencers. When will they learn, eh?

urajoke

Sandwlch wrote: »

Agree. Something very wrong. Same as Dublin Bus and the ESB, these old semistate company employees are still living in the dark ages. Gob*****s.

I'll just leave this here for posterity. Don't forget to add in ALL those private companies in to your rant that have been on strike for their rights.

This is what has become of Ireland, you bend over and take it no matter what your employer wants.

billie1b

Growler!!! wrote: »

Airport fire services are a specialized branch

And are unable to attend any emergency in Dublin airport without a member of DFB at the scene

homerjay2005

urajoke wrote: »

Something wrong with standing up for your rights !

Rights my hole, the people who are striking in this country are amongest the best paid and protected in the world in their professions.

the sense of entitlement is sickening. the people who actually have Unions are the ones who dont need them.

Dacian

homerjay2005 wrote: »

Rights my hole, the people who are striking in this country are amongest the best paid and protected in the world in their professions.

the sense of entitlement is sickening. the people who actually have Unions are the ones who dont need them.

Must tell pass that opinion onto an acquaintance who joined EI in late 2005 and has been on pay freeze since 2007. He is actually earning less now that when he joined due to USC and the rest.

This isn't about entitlement,its about companies refusing to act on a situation that is worsening as time goes on. I wonder how you would feel if tomorrow you were informed that minimum 50% of your pension is gone?



Where exactly did you pluck the info on comparative salaries for airline staff and airport workers? I'ld love to see the website that ranks airport worker salaries....

ProfessorPlum

homerjay2005 wrote: »

Rights my hole, the people who are striking in this country are amongest the best paid and protected in the world in their professions.

the sense of entitlement is sickening. the people who actually have Unions are the ones who dont need them.

Maybe you'd like to take a few moments to consider the irony of what you've just said.

homerjay2005

Dacian wrote: »

Must tell pass that opinion onto an acquaintance who joined EI in late 2005 and has been on pay freeze since 2007. He is actually earning less now that when he joined due to USC and the rest.

lol, just stop. half the country have had pay cuts or lost their jobs since 2007 and your moaning about a man who didnt get a payrise? and you think he is the only person paying USC? f*cking hell.

Dacian wrote: »

i wonder how you would feel if tomorrow you were informed that minimum 50% of your pension is gone?

shi* happens and i would have to accept it along with 100,000s of other people in the country (and millions worldwide) who were conned by pensions. they are the biggest joke around, paying money into an a glorified betting syndicate and expect something wonderful to happen to it.

for what its worth, i cancelled my pension back in 2007 as i seen what was coming and am saving it privately myself.

ProfessorPlum wrote: »

Maybe you'd like to take a few moments to consider the irony of what you've just said.

nothing ironic at all about this, its a fact. here we have people with the some of the best working conditions and pay in the world being greedy and wanting even more. Unions for public and large companies are outdated and no longer needed...its the people in the s*it jobs being actually exploited that need them, but i guess the likes of Siptu and impact dont care about these workers as there is not enough money to be earned for themselves there nor would people care about a strike in Supermacs or the local pub.

ProfessorPlum

homerjay2005 wrote: »

nothing ironic at all about this, its a fact. here we have people with the some of the best working conditions and pay in the world being greedy and wanting even more. Unions for public and large companies are outdated and no longer needed...its the people in the s*it jobs being actually exploited that need them, but i guess the likes of Siptu and impact dont care about these workers as there is not enough money to be earned for themselves there nor would people care about a strike in Supermacs or the local pub.

Ah, I see it's gone right over your head again. Not to worry, I'm sure most people get it.

homerjay2005

ProfessorPlum wrote: »

Ah, I see it's gone right over your head again. Not to worry, I'm sure most people get it.

ok then, tell me why do public employees and large company workers, need unions in this country?

basill

Simples. To stop the big greedy managers taking our pay and conditions as bonuses, carving up the business and selling to the highest bidder and then joe soap (ie: you) would have one airline choice and would be bending over and receiving as the "free market" tells you that will be €500 to London (North/South) please.

ProfessorPlum

homerjay2005 wrote: »

ok then, tell me why do public employees and large company workers, need unions in this country?

For the same reason as any employee might want or need to be in a union. To protect the terms and conditions of their employment. So that their jobs don't turn into the 'sh1t' jobs you referred to above.

In an ideal world, an employees best interests would have some kind of priority, but unfortunately in the real world, we sometimes have to rely on unions to fight our corner.

urajoke

ProfessorPlum wrote: »

For the same reason as any employee might want or need to be in a union. To protect the terms and conditions of their employment. So that their jobs don't turn into the 'sh1t' jobs you referred to above.

In an ideal world, an employees best interests would have some kind of priority, but unfortunately in the real world, we sometimes have to rely on unions to fight our corner.

First time for everything I fully agree with Professor P.

Companies take liberties, no more so than at the moment in the current climate. Profitable companies cutting staff and wages. Forcing extra hours for no pay. Asking staff to reinterview for their jobs. Telling staff to take a pay cut or face being sacked.

If you are one person amongst hundreds how do you prevent this, how do you stop it. You form a group of like minded individuals and get a representative who will speak for the group in agreement. It's called a union. It's not just about pay rises.

Unions are in PRIVATE, public and semi state companies. By the way there is more union members in private companies than there is in public or semi state combined. And there is far more highly paid workers in the private sector than in the other two combined.

Rob32

billie1b wrote: »

And are unable to attend any emergency in Dublin airport without a member of DFB at the scene

Ive no idea where you heard that, but it couldn't be more incorrect

billie1b

Rob32 wrote: »

Ive no idea where you heard that, but it couldn't be more incorrect

I heard it cause I work there and have seen it multiple of times, Dublin Airport has full-time fire cover with part-time fire officers, they rotate between fire, ambulance and airport police. A unit of DFB will always be called to an emergency and take over when they arrive

KnotABother

I support the worker's right to strike but I think that in today's modern world strikes no longer connect with the psyche of the general public. In the old days people would go on strike and people would have empathy for them and support them but nowadays if you strike and inconvenience somebody you just piss them off and lose support for your cause.
Dublin bus's strike was a good example...people got pissed off that they could not get the bus where they needed to and the company lost money. The drivers then went back to work and very little changed. Aer Lingus workers are viewed as being well paid and well taken care of and those who are suffering at the hands of govt cuts and private/public sector redundancies and pay cuts will not look to kindly upon striking Aer Lingus staff when their "pick me up" holiday is ruined by what they see as self entitled greedy staff striking so they can get that second ivory back scratcher they want.

The truth is the first casualty as they say....

Rob32

billie1b wrote: »

I heard it cause I work there and have seen it multiple of times, Dublin Airport has full-time fire cover with part-time fire officers, they rotate between fire, ambulance and airport police. A unit of DFB will always be called to an emergency and take over when they arrive

They have full time firefighters who also cover ambulance duties, very few of them still rotate between the police and fire. Also because the APFS is technically a private fire service the do notify the DFB who are a statutory service in the event assistance is needed, they do not however arrive and take over the scene as firstly aviation fire fighting is a higher certification than domestic and secondly is handled completely differently. Couple this with the DFBs unfamiliarity with the airfield, aircraft layouts, aircraft engine/running fuel fires and the incapacity of the DFBs pump appliances to deliver enough water flow to stem an aviation fuel fire, I find it difficult to imagine they assume control. Under a national emergency however I would imagine the DFB would take control given there increased resources, but this would only.be until the local authority controllers and garda controllers showed up, then it would be a joint effort.

billie1b

Rob32 wrote: »

They have full time firefighters who also cover ambulance duties, very few of them still rotate between the police and fire. Also because the APFS is technically a private fire service the do notify the DFB who are a statutory service in the event assistance is needed, they do not however arrive and take over the scene as firstly aviation fire fighting is a higher certification than domestic and secondly is handled completely differently. Couple this with the DFBs unfamiliarity with the airfield, aircraft layouts, aircraft engine/running fuel fires and the incapacity of the DFBs pump appliances to deliver enough water flow to stem an aviation fuel fire, I find it difficult to imagine they assume control. Under a national emergency however I would imagine the DFB would take control given there increased resources, but this would only.be until the local authority controllers and garda controllers showed up, then it would be a joint effort.

Trust me DFB take over as do AGS when they arrive, a few years ago a high ranking member of DFB went in on an inspection and near shut the place down cause if the sub standard quality.

Rob32

billie1b wrote: »

Trust me DFB take over as do AGS when they arrive, a few years ago a high ranking member of DFB went in on an inspection and near shut the place down cause if the sub standard quality.

Trust me your incorrect. Anyway, I've given you the facts, ignore them or not. Not really my concern

homerjay2005

urajoke wrote: »

Companies take liberties,

and employees dont?

for every corrupt employer out there, there's 100s of lazy, incompetent workers who dont give a s*it about the company that pay them, look to squeeze every penny out of said company, doing as little as possible and then, giving the many great, honest workers in this country a bad name.

urajoke wrote: »

Unions are in PRIVATE, public and semi state companies. By the way there is more union members in private companies than there is in public or semi state combined. And there is far more highly paid workers in the private sector than in the other two combined.

not sure what this has to do with anything, im sure those who are appalled with the actions of public union workers this week, are equally as shocked at the carry on down in Killarney.

billie1b

Rob32 wrote: »

Trust me your incorrect. Anyway, I've given you the facts, ignore them or not. Not really my concern

Ok believe what you want to believe, i'm just giving you my perspective from what I have been involved in and witnessed. When there is an emergency and the chief fire officer from DFB arrives he takes over, when members of AGS arrive they take over from Airport Police, Airport Police remain at the scene to provide escorts if anybody needs them.

Dacian

homerjay2005 wrote: »

lol, just stop. half the country have had pay cuts or lost their jobs since 2007 and your moaning about a man who didnt get a payrise? and you think he is the only person paying USC? f*cking hell.

......... here we have people with the some of the best working conditions and pay in the world being greedy and wanting even more. .......

homerjay2005 wrote: »

Rights my hole, the people who are striking in this country are amongest the best paid and protected in the world in their professions.....

I never claimed that only airport workers are paying USC. EVERY worker in Ireland has seen their money in pocket reduced over the last few years.

I am trying to understand your repeated claim that Irish airport workers are among the most highly paid in the world. Are you referring to the mgmt or the frontline workers?

urajoke

homerjay2005 wrote: »

and employees dont?

I never said they didn't.

homerjay2005

Dacian wrote: »

I never claimed that only airport workers are paying USC. EVERY worker in Ireland has seen their money in pocket reduced over the last few years.

I am trying to understand your repeated claim that Irish airport workers are among the most highly paid in the world. Are you referring to the mgmt or the frontline workers?

all of them, managment, front line, you name it....and im not just talking about airport, im talking about the majority of Unionised workers in this country including public ones - they are up their with the best paid in the world. if you want to disagree, then good for you.

your signature is very apt by the way, you can thank the Unions for playing their part in driving the country into the ground...not as accountable as Bertie, but definitely a factor in the word that ruined us - greed.

ProfessorPlum

homerjay2005 wrote: »

and employees dont?

for every corrupt employer out there, there's 100s of lazy, incompetent workers who dont give a s*it about the company that pay them, look to squeeze every penny out of said company, doing as little as possible and then, giving the many great, honest workers in this country a bad name.

How about the great, honest workers - do they deserve a union, is that ok?

homerjay2005 wrote: »

you can thank the Unions for playing their part in driving the country into the ground...not as accountable as Bertie, but definitely a factor in the word that ruined us - greed.

wtf?

I can thank my union that I'm not on a zero hours contract, up to my eyes in debt, and likely to be told at any time that my place of work has just moved several thousand miles.

Locker10a

homerjay2005 wrote: »

all of them, managment, front line, you name it....and im not just talking about airport, im talking about the majority of Unionised workers in this country including public ones - they are up their with the best paid in the world. if you want to disagree, then good for you.

your signature is very apt by the way, you can thank the Unions for playing their part in driving the country into the ground...not as accountable as Bertie, but definitely a factor in the word that ruined us - greed.

But can you not see that we have some of the best paid jobs and employment in the world because of Unions ?? Why can't you understand that? Do you honestly, truly believe that Irish people have good jobs and pay because employers decided out of the goodness of their hearts they would give them a higher standard of pay and conditions to others ? If you believe that you are deluded, and you say that unions are needed for the employees in sh1t jobs who are being exploited, and you are correct, but those who have unions remain unionized in order to prevent their pay terms and conditions becoming sh1t as you put it! You seem to be inherently anit-union, but whether you like it or not you benefit from unions, as do i and i am not a member of one! Unions uphold a certain standard of employment in this country and we all (unionized employees or not) benefit from it.

dubdaymo

She was told that the conditions of her contract meant she HAD TO join SIPTU

That tells you all you need to know about the bully boys of SIPTU out at DUB. How were they allowed to get away with that? Does this rule still apply in the 21st century?

veetwin

ProfessorPlum wrote: »

I can thank my union that I'm not on a zero hours contract, up to my eyes in debt, and likely to be told at any time that my place of work has just moved several thousand miles.

Presumably the lads of Lufthansa Technik and Liebbher can give the same thanks to their union.

kona

To be fair this mess is a result of horrific mismanagement of money while these companies were semi state. Seems anything the state has dealings with turns to ****.
Leaves some people with no pensions after paying into the fund for their entire careers. That's an awful lot of money which has basically been robbed.

The more you think about the **** that goes on in this country when money is involved, the closer we are to some **** hole like Nigeria.

And aer lingus and daa employees aren't all on rockstar wages! Some are on big bucks but some get well below what they are worth abroad.

Dacian

homerjay2005 wrote: »

all of them, managment, front line, you name it....and im not just talking about airport, im talking about the majority of Unionised workers in this country including public ones - they are up their with the best paid in the world. if you want to disagree, then good for you.....

I am not disagreeing with you. I am just querying where you get the information to allow you to make such a sweeping statement (3 times now) with such confidence?

ProfessorPlum

veetwin wrote: »

Presumably the lads of Lufthansa Technik and Liebbher can give the same thanks to their union.

I'll be honest, I don't know a whole lot about those issues, but from what I've heard, Lufthansa Technik seemed determined to leave whatever happened here.

I can only speak for my own situation in my profession, and I know that if it weren't for my union, I would be in a very different and much worse situation.
That's not to say unions are perfect, they certainly are not. In an ideal world, I would like to be able to have a mature conversation about issues with my employer, based on mutual respect and trust, but unfortunately, that is not the world we work in. Aviation, along with a host of other industries, seems to be in a race to the bottom, and the unions really are just slowing the race down right now. Until management begin to see their employees as assets rather than just a cost to be minimised, I don't see things changing much anytime soon.
That probably reads as a bit of a leftist rant, that is totally not me! But if thats what I gotta do, then so be it.

IRLConor

ProfessorPlum wrote: »

a race to the bottom

A "race to the bottom" is just another phrase for "normal competitive pressure to lower costs". Bear in mind that prices and wages are very heavily linked and you can't have lower prices without lower wages. There's a balance to be struck, but I wish that every time someone complains about a "race to the bottom" they'd also understand that the opposite means a rise in prices and hence more money out of their pocket on the other side. It's not a zero-sum game, but you won't magically get any richer if everyone stops getting wage cuts.

At the end of the day I don't care if people are happy with their employer or not. Just like they don't care if I'm happy with mine. As far as I'm concerned it's a private argument and you're not going to get any support from me by dragging me into it. I want to fly on day X and if you make that hard for me then I'll be pissed off, no matter how just your cause is.

orionm_73

for what its worth, i cancelled my pension back in 2007 as i seen what was coming and am saving it privately myself.

Good for you. Spare a thought for those employees who dont have that option and are forced by their contract to keep paying into a pension fund that in all probability won't pay them a cent when they retire.

KCAccidental

IRLConor wrote: »

A "race to the bottom" is just another phrase for "normal competitive pressure to lower costs". Bear in mind that prices and wages are very heavily linked and you can't have lower prices without lower wages. There's a balance to be struck, but I wish that every time someone complains about a "race to the bottom" they'd also understand that the opposite means a rise in prices and hence more money out of their pocket on the other side. It's not a zero-sum game, but you won't magically get any richer if everyone stops getting wage cuts.

cost of living in Ireland has risen in the past 7 years, while wages have fallen.

people might not get richer if they stop having their wages cut, but with any reductions or freezing they will definitely get poorer as the cost of living increases and inflation continues to raise prices.

gate22

Rob32 wrote: »

Trust me your incorrect. Anyway, I've given you the facts, ignore them or not. Not really my concern

Never let the truth get in the way of a good storey Rob he only knows a little and is putting 1+1 and getting 7 „ and Aaron where's the new caring FR?

IRLConor

KCAccidental wrote: »

cost of living in Ireland has risen in the past 7 years, while wages have fallen.

If you look at the average over the last 5 years, the cost of living has actually come down.

KCAccidental wrote: »

people might not get richer if they stop having their wages cut, but with any reductions or freezing they will definitely get poorer as the cost of living increases and inflation continues to raise prices.

That's all true, but unions will never reverse this flow. It's not within their power. Wages only outpace cost of living increases if there's a shortage of people willing and able to do the job. If there's a surplus, wages will fall. The supply and demand for workers isn't controlled by unions.

Growler!!!

gate22 wrote: »

Never let the truth get in the way of a good storey Rob 😄 and Aaron where's the new caring FR? ðŸ‘

Just so I have this right in my mind. If there is an aircraft accident at the airport. The airport fire services cannot do anything until a member of the Dublin City fire brigade is in attendance? That doesn't sound correct.

What about in SNN and ORK? Not much point in having a fire service on the airfield if they have to wait for "real" fire crews to turn up.

gate22

Growler!!! wrote: »

Just so I have this right in my mind. If there is an aircraft accident at the airport. The airport fire services cannot do anything until a member of the Dublin City fire brigade is in attendance? That doesn't sound correct.

What about in SNN and ORK? Not much point in having a fire service on the airfield if they have to wait for "real" fire crews to turn up.

Maybe it looked wrong Growler, what you said and Rob32 said is correct in the beginning to an extent. The airport are specialised but Aircorps also has fire crew. But this stuff about waiting is not at all true

urajoke

Let's get one thing straight here.

The airport fire service are autonomous of the DFB the primary RFFS at the airport is airport fire service. The back up would be DFB. Maybe in the event of a building fire the DFB would take over as they have more tenders capable of a domestic knock down. In the event of an aircraft incident the airport fire service is primary and first responder they certainly DO NOT wait on a DFB commander they get in there and sort the problem the DFB will provide back up only in terms of numbers.

Terminal building fire yes the DFB will take over as the AFFS only 1-2 domestic tenders.

gate22

urajoke wrote: »

Let's get one thing straight here.

The airport fire service are autonomous of the DFB the primary RFFS at the airport is airport fire service. The back up would be DFB. Maybe in the event of a building fire the DFB would take over as they have more tenders capable of a domestic knock down. In the event of an aircraft incident the airport fire service is primary and first responder they certainly DO NOT wait on a DFB commander they get in there and sort the problem the DFB will provide back up only in terms of numbers.

Terminal building fire yes the DFB will take over as the AFFS only 1-2 domestic tenders.

Correct

Growler!!!

gate22 wrote: »

Maybe it looked wrong Growler, what you said and Rob32 said is correct in the beginning to an extent. The airport are specialised but Aircorps also has fire crew. But this stuff about waiting is not at all true

I was playing Devils advocate. The airport fire crews by ICAO law have to respond to any incident involving an aircraft within 2 minutes anywhere on the field. They don't wait for anything other that urajoke to push the crash button in the Tower.

This was evidenced by the tragic event in Cork in 2011.

homerjay2005

KCAccidental wrote: »

cost of living in Ireland has risen in the past 7 years, while wages have fallen.

errm what? cost of living in this country is down and considerably so compared to the boom days of 2007.

There is great bargains to be had in terms of rent (unless you live in south dublin), weekly shopping, cars, insurance etc etc.

the prices wars between Aldi and the rest has seen grocery shopping down by about 25% also which is what most families would spend the majority of their income on outside of rent/mortgages.

L1011

homerjay2005 wrote: »

errm what? cost of living in this country is down and considerably so compared to the boom days of 2007.

CPI is 3% higher since 2007 (Albeit lower than 2008 still). Its risen back to meet 2007 for the most part although some sections are much lower still.

Tenger

homerjay2005 wrote: »

errm what? cost of living in this country is down and considerably so compared to the boom days of 2007.

There is great bargains to be had in terms of rent (unless you live in south dublin), weekly shopping, cars, insurance etc etc. ......

Any chance of some evidence on this point?

All I see is my gas/electricity/petrol bills going up. As a Lidl shopper I see lower prices. Health/school costs keep rising.