Landlord to raise rent

saucers82

Hi all
I have a feeling my landlord is going to raise my rent soon as a knee jerk response to articles in the newspapers.

with my wages not being increased and water charges on the horizon, plus the cost of living in general still being very high, I need pointers in how to maybe make a case or is there even a legal standpoint I can make?

Signed a 6 month lease

Can he raise it after 6 months?
Where can I get the "market rate" for my room in my area?

any other bits of info that will help please pass it on

I don't really want to move

Eldarion

He can only raise it once in every 12 months period and it has to be in line with similar properties in the area. I'm not certain but I think if this is in your first 6 months and not just a lease renewal then he can't raise it from the original agreed upon rent until 12 months has elapsed.

Property sites(daft.ie/rent.ie) are a good indication of the going rents, just pop in your area and type of dwelling.

saucers82

it will be a lease renewal.

I know daft will give the going rate, but is there an official market rate for e.g. a 2 bed house in North Dublin. rather than go on what greedy landlords are chancing there arms asking?

djimi

You have 28 days (from the time you receive the written notification) to decide what to do about any rental increase, so there is time to discuss the matter with the landlord and maybe try and negotiate a smaller increase.

saucers82

thanks.

that's why I want to be armed with information e.g. market rates

Scortho

saucers82 wrote: »

it will be a lease renewal.

I know daft will give the going rate, but is there an official market rate for e.g. a 2 bed house in North Dublin. rather than go on what greedy landlords are chancing there arms asking?

Nope because a 2 bed in malahide will be more than a 2 bed in swords.

djimi

saucers82 wrote: »

it will be a lease renewal.

I know daft will give the going rate, but is there an official market rate for e.g. a 2 bed house in North Dublin. rather than go on what greedy landlords are chancing there arms asking?

Id clarify that with Threshold/PRTB. The law states one rent review in a 12 month period; Ive always taken that to mean that no review can happen in the first 12 months (regardless of the type of lease), but it would be worth getting a second opinion on that.

There is no blanket going rate as such. The law states that the rent cannot be raised above market rate, which is defined as the rent that the landlord would receive if the property was put back on the market. Basically, if they wouldnt get the increased amount from a new tenant then they are not entitled to ask for that amount from you.

Daft.ie should give you a good indication of the rents of similar properties in your area. Its not an exact science; obviously properties differ and demand will play a big part, but if the rent that you are being asked for is €100 more than the average for your area then its pretty unlikely that the landlord would get this from a new tenant.

If you decide to dispute it then you can raise a case with the PRTB. You may continue to pay the current rent while waiting on the case to be heard (could be months), but if the PRTB rule against you then you must backpay the difference.

Ray Palmer

saucers82 wrote: »

it will be a lease renewal.

I know daft will give the going rate, but is there an official market rate for e.g. a 2 bed house in North Dublin. rather than go on what greedy landlords are chancing there arms asking?

Maybe you are a greedy tenant who want rent below the market rate! If the rate is within market rates then it is you being greedy looking for cheap rent.

Just because your salary hasn't risen it does mean the rent should suit you the same way when rents go down the LL can't keep his rent high to cover his costs.

gaius c

Why are you signing a new lease?
After six months, you are covered under part IV.

saucers82

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Maybe you are a greedy tenant who want rent below the market rate! If the rate is within market rates then it is you being greedy looking for cheap rent.

Just because your salary hasn't risen it does mean the rent should suit you the same way when rents go down the LL can't keep his rent high to cover his costs.

so basically we should not take on board what happened in 2007?

and allow "notions" to dictate?

I am not greedy, I am realistic and it's not just me, a lot of salaries have been frozen for many years now

I refuse to be taken advantage of because some article in the irish times

saucers82

gaius c wrote: »

Why are you signing a new lease?
After six months, you are covered under part IV.

it's a houseshare, I picked up the last 6 months of the original tenants lease
therefore.

the other tenant will finish his 12 months when I come to the end of my 6 month

djimi

saucers82 wrote: »

so basically we should not take on board what happened in 2007?

and allow "notions" to dictate?

I am not greedy, I am realistic and it's not just me, a lot of salaries have been frozen for many years now

I refuse to be taken advantage of because some article in the irish times

Its got nothing to do with greed. Renting is a business and your landlord is a businessman, and like any good businessman ultimately they are out to maximize their return from their business. Why they raise the rent is irrelevant; the bottom line is the legally they are entitled to raise according to rising rents in the area.

I say this as a tenant. The sooner you come to terms with this the better. Its not personal, its just the nature of the business, same as any other.

returnNull

saucers82 wrote: »

I refuse to be taken advantage of because some article in the irish times

eh?? what makes you think the LL reads the times or indeed any other paper?

If he's anyway on the ball he'll know he can raise the rent as long as its inline with the going market rate for the area.

Having said that find out if he can raise after only 6 months.

Ray Palmer

saucers82 wrote: »

so basically we should not take on board what happened in 2007?

and allow "notions" to dictate?

I am not greedy, I am realistic and it's not just me, a lot of salaries have been frozen for many years now

I refuse to be taken advantage of because some article in the irish times

it's a houseshare, I picked up the last 6 months of the original tenants lease
therefore.

the other tenant will finish his 12 months when I come to the end of my 6 month

Then he can raise the rent as you took over an existing year lease you didn't really sign a 6 month lease legally.

Rents have risen in Dublin nothing to do with the Irish Times article. It has also nothing to do with 2007 or notions. You have no special standing because your salary hasn't gone up rent has. You should may realise using words like "greed" because rent has gone up isn't accurate or appropriate. You know nothing of the LL finances

edanto

For actual rents being paid, it might be better to consult the PRTB rent index.

http://www.prtb.ie/landlords/rent-index

With daft etc, you never really know if properties are going at asking or below. True - there seems to be upwards pressure on rents at the moment, but the PRTB index is based on actual rents and nothing else, and you can examine various property types in your area.

djimi

edanto wrote: »

For actual rents being paid, it might be better to consult the PRTB rent index.

http://www.prtb.ie/landlords/rent-index

With daft etc, you never really know if properties are going at asking or below. True - there seems to be upwards pressure on rents at the moment, but the PRTB index is based on actual rents and nothing else, and you can examine various property types in your area.

That PRTB index is too general to be accurate. It has the average rent for my area down as €730 for a two bed apartment, but Id be laughed out of it if I tried to argue that I should be paying €730 for my apartment.

Daft isnt exactly accurate either, but its a pretty good guide, especially for healthier rental markets where you can be pretty much certain that landlords will get asking price or pretty close to it.

gaius c

saucers82 wrote: »

it's a houseshare, I picked up the last 6 months of the original tenants lease
therefore.

the other tenant will finish his 12 months when I come to the end of my 6 month

Ah fair enough. Landlord is entitled to review the rent no matter what you do then and you are entitled to contest that (through the PRTB) if you think it's a higher than market rent increase.

saucers82

I have no problem with an increase, I know there is a resurgence and a lot of demand.
But I know my landlord, he will not take the sensible route I think. He will go for a massive hike, despite no real upgrades to the house to justify. It happened to a mate who lives close by. Landlord upped his monthly rent by 75euro and said take it or leave it! (he is living there 4 years!)

Pawwed Rig

saucers82 wrote: »

75euro and said take it or leave it! (he is living there 4 years!)

€75 is not a massive amount if the rent is say €1,000 per month. Context is everything. How long he is living there is irrelevant.
If you have no problem with an increase then once that increase is reasonable then there is no issue. What is reasonable is a vague concept and would depend on what rent you pay versus the market rate. There is some flexibility on what the PRTB would consider to be the market rate too so an appeal to them may not yield the results you expect.
I would advise you, should the hypothetical increase materialise, try and negotiate with the LL to something you are both happy with. If not then feel free to appeal to the PRTB or move out.

Your 'greedy landlord' comment is probably not helping your situation. If you are under that belief (which would suggest maybe it is you who has been believing everything they read in the paper) then it is unlikely that any increase will be acceptable to you as you are looking at your contract with your LL on an emotional level rather than the business agreement that it is.

saucers82

€75 per tenant (4 tenants) = €300

djimi

saucers82 wrote: »

I have no problem with an increase, I know there is a resurgence and a lot of demand.
But I know my landlord, he will not take the sensible route I think. He will go for a massive hike, despite no real upgrades to the house to justify. It happened to a mate who lives close by. Landlord upped his monthly rent by 75euro and said take it or leave it! (he is living there 4 years!)

They dont have to justify the raise, and they dont have to step up the rent in stages either. So long as the increased rent falls within market rates, that is all that matters.

lau1247

saucers82 wrote: »

€75 per tenant (4 tenants) = €300

if that is too much, why didn't they move to another place in the same locale?? Chances are the price difference would be minimal and the hassle of moving Vs. the increase would not be worth it. Otherwise your friend would have moved

saucers82

djimi wrote: »

They dont have to justify the raise, and they dont have to step up the rent in stages either. So long as the increased rent falls within market rates, that is all that matters.

so back to my orignal question

thanks for the info about PRTB sample rates and Daft etc.
I accept use of the word "greedy" probably gave off the wrong impression

I just ain't going to be taken for a sucker. point of the post was to figure out the best way to present info to the LL if he goes mad with a raise
(raising it back to its 2007 level)

just a critical time for me in my savings as I am getting close to a deposit and I suppose that's where the emotional part came in. Feeling the pressure that things are going to spiral out of control again. Once bitten....

djimi

If the landlord raises the rent then the first thing that you need to do is some research into the rents in your area and try and judge if the raise falls within legal limits. If it doesnt, then you can dispute it with the PRTB.

If the raise is legal, then your next step is to sit down with the landlord and try and negotiate. They might be willing to meet you half way. If you cant find a level that you are happy with, then you give your notice and you leave.

Above all, you need to leave the emotion out of it. The landlord is entitled to review the rent once a year, and they can increase to meet market rates without having to justify this to the tenant. Keep your head at all times, and remember its not personal. Also remember, its in the landlords interest to keep you in the property also as vacant time costs them money, as does things like registering new tenants etc, so there is every possibility that they will be open to negotiation.

3DataModem

Ray Palmer wrote: »

You have no special standing because your salary hasn't gone up rent has.

If a tenant gave me this line I'd happily offer to forsake the rent increase for salary-linked increases in future years.

3DataModem

djimi wrote: »

Above all, you need to leave the emotion out of it. The landlord is entitled to review the rent once a year, and they can increase to meet market rates without having to justify this to the tenant. Keep your head at all times, and remember its not personal. Also remember, its in the landlords interest to keep you in the property also as vacant time costs them money, as does things like registering new tenants etc, so there is every possibility that they will be open to negotiation.

This is true, and well expressed. The bold part is very important; however there are many pig-headed landlords who just refuse to get below what they think is market rate.

gaius c

saucers82 wrote: »

so back to my orignal question

thanks for the info about PRTB sample rates and Daft etc.
I accept use of the word "greedy" probably gave off the wrong impression

I just ain't going to be taken for a sucker. point of the post was to figure out the best way to present info to the LL if he goes mad with a raise
(raising it back to its 2007 level)

just a critical time for me in my savings as I am getting close to a deposit and I suppose that's where the emotional part came in. Feeling the pressure that things are going to spiral out of control again. Once bitten....

Rents have gone up (in Dublin & Cork) and you are not entitled to stay in a place at the same or lower rent just because you want to. Get used to the fact that you may have to leave to get cheaper rent and also get used to the fact that you might find that you're already paying the cheapest rent in the area and that you have to change area completely to get cheaper rent.

lau1247

3DataModem wrote: »

If a tenant gave me this line I'd happily offer to forsake the rent increase for salary-linked increases in future years.

good luck with that.. (A) how would you know when they get a salary increase? Who in their right mind will want to pay more if they can get away with it and (B) they can just up and leave with the appropriate notice period..

makeorbrake

3DataModem wrote: »

however there are many pig-headed landlords who just refuse to get below what they think is market rate.

Pig headed? So long as any increase is legal, then the same rules apply as apply to buying any other goods or services i.e. the price of something is determined by what one party is prepared to offer it at and the other party is prepared to pay for it.

Labelling the landlords actions as "pig headed" is just emotive stuff that is not directly relevant or helpful to anyone. If he has overpriced, then no doubt he will find that out when he comes to try and re-let the property.

The frustration that seems to be coming through here is likely a case where tenant dislikes the idea of an increase but not so much that it would motivate them to move...?

lau1247 wrote:

good luck with that.. (A) how would you know when they get a salary increase? Who in their right mind will want to pay more if they can get away with it and (B) they can just up and leave with the appropriate notice period..

I would imagine that was a tongue-in-cheek comment. The point being made is IF it were possible to track salary increases with rent increases, the LL would be in a better position. It nullifies the point that the previous poster made.

djimi

makeorbrake wrote: »

Pig headed? So long as any increase is legal, then the same rules apply as apply to buying any other goods or services i.e. the price of something is determined by what one party is prepared to offer it at and the other party is prepared to pay for it.

Labelling the landlords actions as "pig headed" is just emotive stuff that is not directly relevant or helpful to anyone. If he has overpriced, then no doubt he will find that out when he comes to try and re-let the property.

The frustration that seems to be coming through here is likely a case where tenant dislikes the idea of an increase but not so much that it would motivate them to move...?

I think the pig headed comment was more aimed at the landlord who is willing to lose out on a months rent for the sake of holding out for a coupleof hundred quid more of a rent increase.

hfallada

We live in a free market economy. If you are not happy with the rent you are being asked to pay, you can simply move to a different property. But good luck finding a new house as there is no supply. Which results in forcing up prices.

The market is operating as it should be due to the higher demand. But dont forget your landlord now has to pay USC and PRSI on his rental income. He also has a property tax and probably higher borrowing costs due to increases in mortgage rates

makeorbrake

djimi wrote: »

I think the pig headed comment was more aimed at the landlord who is willing to lose out on a months rent for the sake of holding out for a coupleof hundred quid more of a rent increase.

I take the point. However, if he has mispriced, then that's the LL's problem. I know people don't want the disruption of having to move but it comes down to the bottom line. If they don't agree with the increase, they should move outwards and onwards.

3DataModem

djimi wrote: »

I think the pig headed comment was more aimed at the landlord who is willing to lose out on a months rent for the sake of holding out for a coupleof hundred quid more of a rent increase.

Exactly. My tenant negotiated a drop last year. Market rate is 850. He suggested 750. We swapped a few DAFT links, and I agreed 800 as he's been there a while, and spent about 1200 on new furniture as the existing stuff was 8-9 years old as long as he verbally agreed to stay another 6m+.

There are plenty of landlords who would be pig-headed about the 850, and pig headed about the furniture upgrade. They see the rent as their personal income, not the gross income of the business, and see any reduction as a personal loss.

3DataModem

makeorbrake wrote: »

I take the point. However, if he has mispriced, then that's the LL's problem. I know people don't want the disruption of having to move but it comes down to the bottom line. If they don't agree with the increase, they should move outwards and onwards.

Completely agree. A landlord who won't take a small hit on rent to get a good tenant, is running their business badly.

gaius c

djimi wrote: »

I think the pig headed comment was more aimed at the landlord who is willing to lose out on a months rent for the sake of holding out for a coupleof hundred quid more of a rent increase.

And it's unfair. "Gambler" would be a better description in that they are gambling that the tenant will decide moving is not worth the hassle and instead pay the higher rent. Also, vacancy periods are right down at present so it probably wouldn't be empty for the full month.

3DataModem wrote: »

Completely agree. A landlord who won't take a small hit on rent to get a good tenant, is running their business badly.

Lots and lots of tenants out there so landlords can a) pick and choose b) name their price.
It's not nice for tenants and the high & mighty attitude of some landlords makes bile rise at the back of my throat but that's just the way it is right now.

hfallada wrote: »

We live in a free market economy. If you are not happy with the rent you are being asked to pay, you can simply move to a different property. But good luck finding a new house as there is no supply. Which results in forcing up prices.

The market is operating as it should be due to the higher demand. But dont forget your landlord now has to pay USC and PRSI on his rental income. He also has a property tax and probably higher borrowing costs due to increases in mortgage rates

Who cares? Rents don't go down when tenant income decreases so they shouldn't go up just because landlord costs have increased.

djimi

gaius c wrote: »

And it's unfair. "Gambler" would be a better description in that they are gambling that the tenant will decide moving is not worth the hassle and instead pay the higher rent. Also, vacancy periods are right down at present so it probably wouldn't be empty for the full month.

I suppose it depends on the situation. I know of one house that was vacant for over 6 months because the landlord wouldnt knock €50 off the asking price. Some houses and some areas are simply not worth what is being asked, and be it a new tenant or a rent increase, there are some geniuses out there who would sooner screw themselves financially rather then "give in" and negotiate!

gaius c

djimi wrote: »

I suppose it depends on the situation. I know of one house that was vacant for over 6 months because the landlord wouldnt knock €50 off the asking price. Some houses and some areas are simply not worth what is being asked, and be it a new tenant or a rent increase, there are some geniuses out there who would sooner screw themselves financially rather then "give in" and negotiate!

It does but at the heart of it, price setting is something of a gamble in today's rather volatile market. Cautious landlords (which we were before we sold up) would introduce increases gradually, not bundle a decade's worth into one increase as some friends of mine were subjected to recently.

Pawwed Rig

djimi wrote: »

there are some geniuses out there who would sooner screw themselves financially rather then "give in" and negotiate!

Which is why the OP needs to keep emotion out of it. If he goes in guns blazing with 'greedy landlord' comments or in a confrontational manner then an amateur LL might let ego get in the way of common sense and noone wins.

makeorbrake

gaius c wrote: »

Who cares? Rents don't go down when tenant income decreases so they shouldn't go up just because landlord costs have increased.

This and also the "greedy landlord" and "gambler landlord" comments...


To all of them, it's the same thing! It doesn't matter. Market forces dictate what the price will be. If you are not happy with it, move on. Getting tied up in what the landlord should or shouldnt charge or what the tenant should or shouldnt pay is pointless.

How is it any different from any other financial transaction?