Do Irish Landlords check the credit history of their prospective tenants?

murphaph

djimi wrote: »

Nobody in their right mind is going to give that sort of sensitive financial information to a private individual that they dont know.

In that case most German tenants must be out if their minds.

With respect to landlord references.... Unfortunately landlords with delinquent tenants will give references and back them up verbally just to get rid of their problem. It's despicable but it happens.

At the end of the day nobody is obliged to give me anything and I'm not obliged to give my property over to anyone. These are decisions we are free to make.

murphaph

gaius c wrote: »

We don't expect you to do anything. We're just making it clear that your expectations are completely unreasonable and that 99% of tenants will steer clear of you.

When people use 99% as if it were a real statistic it's usually way off.

djimi

murphaph wrote: »

In that case most German tenants must be out if their minds.

Why do you keep comparing Ireland to Germany?

This isnt Germany. I dont know what its like over there (nor do I care quite frankly) but in this country, and at this point in time, I as a tenant do not trust some Joe Soap landlord that I have met virtually anonymously on Daft enough to trust them with my personal financial information. There are too many cowboys out there who could not be trusted with such information. Im sorry for you if you are one of the (many) genuine decent landlords, but thats just the way that it is.

If you feel the same way about tenants then thats your choice. But I can guarantee you will be turning away a significant number of potentially good tenants to be left with one who may or may not be what you want.

djimi

Anyway this has gone round and round enough. Your mind is made up so best of luck to you. I would be genuinely interested to hear how you get on when the time comes for you to rent your property next.

jester77

djimi wrote: »

Why do you keep comparing Ireland to Germany?

This isnt Germany. I dont know what its like over there (nor do I care quite frankly) but in this country, and at this point in time, I as a tenant do not trust some Joe Soap landlord that I have met virtually anonymously on Daft enough to trust them with my personal financial information. There are too many cowboys out there who could not be trusted with such information. Im sorry for you if you are one of the (many) genuine decent landlords, but thats just the way that it is.

If you feel the same way about tenants then thats your choice. But I can guarantee you will be turning away a significant number of potentially good tenants to be left with one who may or may not be what you want.

murphaph lives in Germany I think. Showing your last 3 months salary is the standard here when it comes to renting. No landlord will rent out property without seeing some solid proof that the person is capable of paying. The Germans are über paranoid when it comes to data privacy and security, more so than any other nation. You can be guaranteed that if citizens had a problem with their payslips being handed over to prospective landlords then it wouldn't happen.

I don't see any issue with it. I'm actually surprised that it is not a more common in Ireland as it is nearly the only way to show proof that someone is capable of repayments. Anyone can get their mate to write up a reference or get a good credit score by just paying their mobile phone bill on time every month. Is it not standard to show bank statements if taking out a phone contract? And that is only a fraction of what rent would cost a month.

drumswan

What has Germany got to do with anything, this isnt Germany. Yet, anyway.

murphaph

drumswan wrote: »

What has Germany got to do with anything, this isnt Germany. Yet, anyway.

I have personal experience of both systems so I draw on it in my posts.

The "this is not such and such a place" mentality is something I have little time for. I'm sure Germany could learn a thing or two from Ireland as well.

drumswan

Ive lived in several different countries, renting in each is different and irrelevant to any other. When i cant get a place without handing over my financial history to Paddy de landlord I'll consider it, but until then I wont. Nor, do I suspect will any other professional renter.

djimi

murphaph wrote: »

I have personal experience of both systems so I draw on it in my posts.

The "this is not such and such a place" mentality is something I have little time for. I'm sure Germany could learn a thing or two from Ireland as well.

As could we from the Germans. However, saying that Ireland could learn from Germany, and saying that something works/happens in Germany so Im going to do it in Ireland also are two very different things. For example, as you have pointed out, asking a tenant for bank statements etc in Germany is the norm so tenants expect it. It is not the norm over here, and if you ask a tenant for such a thing you are likely to told where to go with yourself. Maybe thats Ireland being backwards, but it is what it is.

murphaph

drumswan wrote: »

Ive lived in several different countries, renting in each is different and irrelevant to any other. When i cant get a place without handing over my financial history to Paddy de landlord I'll consider it, but until then I wont. Nor, do I suspect will any other professional renter.

So no country can learn anything from any other country?

murphaph

djimi wrote: »

As could we from the Germans. However, saying that Ireland could learn from Germany, and saying that something works/happens in Germany so Im going to do it in Ireland also are two very different things. For example, as you have pointed out, asking a tenant for bank statements etc in Germany is the norm so tenants expect it. It is not the norm over here, and if you ask a tenant for such a thing you are likely to told where to go with yourself. Maybe thats Ireland being backwards, but it is what it is.

At some point it wasn't the norm in Germany either of course. I'm sure a month's rent wasn't always the norm in Ireland and I've heard of several instances now of 6 weeks rent being asked there, so things can change.

For any change in general practice to take place, someone has to be the first to do it.

fash

djimi wrote: »

. Nobody in their right mind is going to give that sort of sensitive financial information to a private individual that they dont know.

It is required in London.

_Kaiser_

fash wrote: »

It is required in London.

As has already been pointed out.. this isn't London, or Berlin, or Paris or anywhere else you'd care to mention!

Look, I do get where murphaph is coming from and the same tenants he's concerned about make my life harder as someone who DOES live up to his end of the deal - but here in good ole Ireland we can't even trust the banks themselves nevermind the thousands of accidental landlords who overextended themselves in the good times and now can't live in the place they bought and think that renting it out while they live with mammy & daddy/the boyfriend/girlfriend is a handy way to cover (most of) the mortgage without realising the full implications and obligations on themselves by doing so.

Then you have the other type who think they're doing you a favour offering you a roof over your head and treat it accordingly - rather than the professional business deal it actually is.

Personally I'd love to be able to find and rent a place at a reasonable rate for more than 18/24 months at a time as I'm sick of having to move home. Alas I didn't take the fortnightly offers of "free money" from the bank in the aforementioned Good Times but I'm still paying the bills for those that did anyway, so as a result it's now highly unlikely that I'll ever qualify for a mortgage anyway.

But either way, I agree with murphaph and The_Conductor that a serious review of the rental sector is long overdue with real and enforceable obligations AND consequences to both landlord and tenant if they fail to meet their end of the deal.... BUT until we get past the idea of renting as being only a stepping stone to ownership or the poor man's/social welfare recipient's choice AND stop running our society on the "ah shure it'll be grand" approach then the reality is that we'll continue to see abuse of the market from all sides - including government/regulatory bodies!

Mrs OBumble

murphaph wrote: »

I have personal experience of both systems so I draw on it in my posts.

The "this is not such and such a place" mentality is something I have little time for. I'm sure Germany could learn a thing or two from Ireland as well.

Shockingly off topic, but I cannot resisit:

"Excuse me. The sign says that the music will start at 6 o'clock. Already it is 6:05pm and there is no music. What is happening, please" (accompanied by a very annoyed demeanor!)

murphaph

One other thing. I'll require any future tenant to pay by direct debit. No more standing orders. Tenant gives me their bank details and signed SEPA mandate and I initiate a direct debit from their account to one of mine. Much cleaner and no chance of the payment being "forgotten".

_Kaiser_

murphaph wrote: »

One other thing. I'll require any future tenant to pay by direct debit. No more standing orders. Tenant gives me their bank details and signed SEPA mandate and I initiate a direct debit from their account to one of mine. Much cleaner and no chance of the payment being "forgotten".

Honestly, and as I said previously I DO understand why you're so wary, I really don't think you'll be getting far in this country with all those conditions and requirements you're talking about.

As above, this isn't Germany or the UK and people here will just move on to the next ad.

djimi

Im starting to think that youre just on the wind up now Murph...

murphaph

Not at all, though I can see why you might think that. I only avoided direct debits before because the system was onerous to operate for a small time guy like me, but SEPA is changing all that. My bank here provides me with the ability to create SEPA direct debits very easily. They allow me to open and close current accounts with a few clicks of the mouse. All I need is a creditor identifier, which is available on demand from the Bundesbank. I already have all that ready for my next German tenancy agreement to start and just never really thought about my Irish residential letting but after SEPA it's one and the same system, so why not I asked myself.

As I've said before, I only have 1 residential property in Ireland and it's happily let to happy tenants who look after it and I look after them when things need sorting, so it will hopefully be years before I need to test the waters with any of this stuff, but if it fails spectacularly I'll be man enough to let you all know it was a no go.

gaius c

Out of curiosity, you're based in Germany?
What do you do when your Irish tenants ring to say that the fridge has packed up?

murphaph

gaius c wrote: »

Out of curiosity, you're based in Germany?
What do you do when your Irish tenants ring to say that the fridge has packed up?

My brother handles such urgent calls. If my tenants want to discuss more long term issues then they email me usually. Being based abroad doesn't have any negative impact on my tenants. In fact from reading these threads it's clear to me that my tenants have better contact with their landlord than many tenants with landlords based in Ireland.

matrim

murphaph wrote: »

My brother handles such urgent calls. If my tenants want to discuss more long term issues then they email me usually. Being based abroad doesn't have any negative impact on my tenants. In fact from reading these threads it's clear to me that my tenants have better contact with their landlord than many tenants with landlords based in Ireland.

The main negative would that that presumable your tenants have to hold back the tax for the property and pay that at the end of the year. I've never had to do it myself so not 100% sure of the details.

Regarding direct debit, not a chance would I set that up. I've had enough problems with utility companies incorrectly taking direct debits to not trust a landlord to do it.

Clive

murphaph wrote: »

One other thing. I'll require any future tenant to pay by direct debit. No more standing orders. Tenant gives me their bank details and signed SEPA mandate and I initiate a direct debit from their account to one of mine. Much cleaner and no chance of the payment being "forgotten".

Dodgy tenants would love to pay by direct debit under the new SEPA regulations. Six months of payments can be reversed by them and it's up to the recipient to chase them.

The_Conductor

matrim wrote: »

The main negative would that that presumable your tenants have to hold back the tax for the property and pay that at the end of the year. I've never had to do it myself so not 100% sure of the details.

Regarding direct debit, not a chance would I set that up. I've had enough problems with utility companies incorrectly taking direct debits to not trust a landlord to do it.

If his brother is here and is managing the tenancy on his behalf- he would presumably be acting as an agent, in which case, this would not apply.

As for direct debits- as long as everything is carefully spelt out in in writing, I don't see what the issue is- unless, of course we're back to the general mistrust- a cycle which we're going to have to break, sooner or later.

murphaph

Clive wrote: »

Dodgy tenants would love to pay by direct debit under the new SEPA regulations. Six months of payments can be reversed by them and it's up to the recipient to chase them.

Good point. Scratch that idea then.

murphaph

The_Conductor wrote: »

If his brother is here and is managing the tenancy on his behalf- he would presumably be acting as an agent, in which case, this would not apply

Correct. However in my case the property is let via RAS and the local authority retains 20% and furnishes me with an R185 form for my tax return. So far no problems with that.

drumswan

murphaph wrote: »

Good point. Scratch that idea then.

lol, so much for it being about building trust

murphaph

drumswan wrote: »

lol, so much for it being about building trust

It's not about building trust I'm afraid. The law doesn't afford me enough protection from delinquent tenants to trust strangers with no proven history of paying for anything. My current tenants have proven themselves trustworthy over 5 years and I hope I have proven myself trustworthy to them, so I don't/won't change anything with the current set up.

It's the unknown quantity that's the problem. The law and more precisely the pace at which its gears grind doesn't allow me to afford as much trust as I might like to. Ireland doesn't even have compulsory registration of abode (this is simply accepted as normal for most continental Europeans) so if a tenant does a bunk after racking up large arrears, I may even (if I want to waste more money) get a judgement against him but I will not be able to find him even if he had the assets to settle the judgement. The Gardai do not go on manhunts for civil debts and with no system of compulsory registration, I have no way of finding out where the guy now lives.

In continental Europe most citizens carry an ID card with their current address on it. In Germany a change of address must be reported within 7 days and the ID card is amended. The ID card number ties that person to an address which I can find out, unless they completely leave the system (nigh on impossible to live a normal life without being in the system though-you need your ID to do so many things). In Ireland I can verify that my tenant's name is x from his passport and that he used to live at y from some utility bill but that's all I know and that's all the state knows which is of no use to me when seeking a year's rent from a rent nomad. Being a debtor in Ireland is simply too easy!

gaius c

murphaph wrote: »

It's not about building trust I'm afraid. The law doesn't afford me enough protection from delinquent tenants to trust strangers with no proven history of paying for anything. My current tenants have proven themselves trustworthy over 5 years and I hope I have proven myself trustworthy to them, so I don't/won't change anything with the current set up.

It's the unknown quantity that's the problem. The law and more precisely the pace at which its gears grind doesn't allow me to afford as much trust as I might like to. Ireland doesn't even have compulsory registration of abode (this is simply accepted as normal for most continental Europeans) so if a tenant does a bunk after racking up large arrears, I may even (if I want to waste more money) get a judgement against him but I will not be able to find him even if he had the assets to settle the judgement. The Gardai do not go on manhunts for civil debts and with no system of compulsory registration, I have no way of finding out where the guy now lives.

In continental Europe most citizens carry an ID card with their current address on it. In Germany a change of address must be reported within 7 days and the ID card is amended. The ID card number ties that person to an address which I can find out, unless they completely leave the system (nigh on impossible to live a normal life without being in the system though-you need your ID to do so many things). In Ireland I can verify that my tenant's name is x from his passport and that he used to live at y from some utility bill but that's all I know and that's all the state knows which is of no use to me when seeking a year's rent from a rent nomad. Being a debtor in Ireland is simply too easy!

Uh oh. I see where you're going with this.

_Kaiser_

drumswan wrote: »

lol, so much for it being about building trust

His mistake (IMO) is thinking that he has the right to act like a financial authority (with his list of requirements for prospective tenants) and expecting tenants to cheerfully hand over that sort of personal information to someone who in reality is just another Joe Soap and one they probably won't ever deal with outside of an email or maybe a phone call.

Whatever about how it's done abroad, your average Irish tenant just won't be comfortable with that and will look elsewhere.

_Kaiser_

murphaph wrote: »

It's not about building trust I'm afraid. The law doesn't afford me enough protection from delinquent tenants to trust strangers with no proven history of paying for anything. My current tenants have proven themselves trustworthy over 5 years and I hope I have proven myself trustworthy to them, so I don't/won't change anything with the current set up.

It's the unknown quantity that's the problem. The law and more precisely the pace at which its gears grind doesn't allow me to afford as much trust as I might like to. Ireland doesn't even have compulsory registration of abode (this is simply accepted as normal for most continental Europeans) so if a tenant does a bunk after racking up large arrears, I may even (if I want to waste more money) get a judgement against him but I will not be able to find him even if he had the assets to settle the judgement. The Gardai do not go on manhunts for civil debts and with no system of compulsory registration, I have no way of finding out where the guy now lives.

In continental Europe most citizens carry an ID card with their current address on it. In Germany a change of address must be reported within 7 days and the ID card is amended. The ID card number ties that person to an address which I can find out, unless they completely leave the system (nigh on impossible to live a normal life without being in the system though-you need your ID to do so many things). In Ireland I can verify that my tenant's name is x from his passport and that he used to live at y from some utility bill but that's all I know and that's all the state knows which is of no use to me when seeking a year's rent from a rent nomad. Being a debtor in Ireland is simply too easy!

To be very blunt and honest about it, from all you've said you may be just better off selling the property if and when the current tenancy ends

This isn't Germany/continental Europe no matter how much you might wish it to be.