Trains leaving before they are timetabled to

Jacknory

Hi

Just wanted to put out what happened to me last night while trying to commute on the 23.00 Dart from Pearse to Greystones.

I was socialising with friends in Ranelagh and left to get the Luas to St Stephens green. From there I walked towards Pearse but as I thought the time was getting a little tight I jogged half the length of Merrion Sq. Was walking down Westlandrow and I see a Dart crossing the bridge heading south. I knew that this was my train so I pegged it to the station. Bought my ticket (ticket timestamp shows 22.58 as time of purchase) and ran up the escalator to find that the train had gone.

The time on the board on the platform was 22.58:45s. I asked the Irish rail guy at the kiosk what had happened to the 23:00 train to Greystones and he said, after checking his timetable, that it was due to depart at 22.59.....which meant that even if his timetable was correct that the train still left early. I checked the timetables in the station and online and they all have the train set to depart at 23:00.

My question is really about who should have responsibility for this as I want to vent my anger in the appropriate place?? I was out of pocket as a result of this (extra time/cost for babysitter) incompetence and want an explanation how a timetabled train can leave early. Maybe it’s how Irish Rail keeps their ridiculous stats high in terms of punctuality!!!!:mad:

Dravokivich

Their punctuality stats are only penalised when a train arrives at station(s) more than 10 minutes after it was meant to be there. Leaving 15 seconds earlier is nothing on that scale.

Jacknory

If a train is late its late but for a train to pull out before its meant to makes a mockery of having a timetable in the first place. Then again....should I be surprised with anything that Irish Rail does

Stella Virgo

have a "chat" with the head/chief inspector of the main station on the line ,dont waste yer time dealing with anyone of a lesser status

zl1whqvjs75cdy

Because Irish Rail are total cowboys and operate to whatever mood has taken the drivers.

bmaxi

Stella Virgo wrote: »

have a "chat" with the head/chief inspector of the main station on the line ,dont waste yer time dealing with anyone of a lesser status

Good luck with that.

Hilly Bill

Jacknory wrote: »

Hi

Just wanted to put out what happened to me last night while trying to commute on the 23.00 Dart from Pearse to Greystones.

I was socialising with friends in Ranelagh and left to get the Luas to St Stephens green. From there I walked towards Pearse but as I thought the time was getting a little tight I jogged half the length of Merrion Sq. Was walking down Westlandrow and I see a Dart crossing the bridge heading south. I knew that this was my train so I pegged it to the station. Bought my ticket (ticket timestamp shows 22.58 as time of purchase) and ran up the escalator to find that the train had gone.

The time on the board on the platform was 22.58:45s. I asked the Irish rail guy at the kiosk what had happened to the 23:00 train to Greystones and he said, after checking his timetable, that it was due to depart at 22.59.....which meant that even if his timetable was correct that the train still left early. I checked the timetables in the station and online and they all have the train set to depart at 23:00.

My question is really about who should have responsibility for this as I want to vent my anger in the appropriate place?? I was out of pocket as a result of this (extra time/cost for babysitter) incompetence and want an explanation how a timetabled train can leave early. Maybe it’s how Irish Rail keeps their ridiculous stats high in terms of punctuality!!!!:mad:

Its your own fault, you left it tight. If you saw that it was tight then why were you walking down Westland row?

bikeman1

It is a total disgrace if a train leaves ahead of time. There is no excuse for that.

I have had it to me before, to the extent of 4 minutes on a northbound Dart to Malahide. Wasn't impressed. I got the station to ring Fairview depot to explain what happened and was told they would have a word with the driver.

I suppose the lesson here is that Irish Rail, despite charging high fares, can't even do the simplest of things, wait until the departure time. So you should be there 5 minutes before the train is due to leave "in case" it leaves early.

Morf

Do DART have a similar recommendation to Bus Eireann of being at point of departure a certain time before it is scheduled to leave?

I think Bus Eireann say 10 minutes.

bikeman1

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Its your own fault, you left it tight.

I'm afraid, if you are on the platform over a minute before departure and the train is gone, that is not your fault. Simple the 23:00 should leave at 23:00 not some other time before that if the driver is on his way home.

Captain Chaos

This happened to me of Friday morning, the train arrived and left the station 2 mins early, this train is normally around 3 mins late but makes up the time by Connolly no problem. On Friday it left Howth Junction early and ran straight through to Connolly but as we were 5 mins early we were held just outside Clontarf Road so the tabletable could catch up.

They really are unreal at times.

Jamie2k9

IE are allowed to stop passengers boarding 2 minutes before departure if they wish, leaving it 15 seconds before the scheduled departure to arrive on the platform is not the best idea.

Hilly Bill

bikeman1 wrote: »

I'm afraid, if you are on the platform over a minute before departure and the train is gone, that is not your fault. Simple the 23:00 should leave at 23:00 not some other time before that if the driver is on his way home.

I agree but the OP wasn't.

Hilly Bill

Captain Chaos wrote: »

This happened to me of Friday morning, the train arrived and left the station 2 mins early, this train is normally around 3 mins late but makes up the time by Connolly no problem. On Friday it left Howth Junction early and ran straight through to Connolly but as we were 5 mins early we were held just outside Clontarf Road so the tabletable could catch up.

They really are unreal at times.

Are you sure its to catch up on the timetable or just guessing?

partyatmygaff

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Its your own fault, you left it tight.

Of course. Irish Rail can do no wrong, everything is their customer's fault.

The same thing happened to me. A train left 4 minutes early making me nearly an hour late. On the way back home that same day, it was 10 minutes late (like 3/5 days that week). Funnily enough that happened the week that my weekly fare went up by nearly €4. It seems that the more money they take, the poorer their service becomes.

I wish I had an alternative to using Irish Rail but I don't. Before anyone else says it, yes I did complain to Irish Rail. As usual, it wasn't even acknowledged.

Quelle surprise.

n97 mini

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

IE are allowed to stop passengers boarding 2 minutes before departure if they wish

Not by driving the train out of the station.

Jamie2k9

partyatmygaff wrote: »

Of course. Irish Rail can do no wrong, everything is their customer's fault.

The same thing happened to me. A train left 3-4 minutes early making me an hour late for my first lecture. On the way back home that same day, it was 10 minutes late (like 3/5 days that week). Funnily enough that happened the week that my weekly fare went up by nearly €4. It seems that the more money they take, the poorer their service becomes.

I wish I had an alternative to using Irish Rail but I don't. Before anyone else says it, yes I did complain to Irish Rail. As usual, it wasn't even acknowledged.

Quelle surprise.

Request the train running data for the service from IE, the problem was you time was slower that IE which is actually correct, set your time by them in future and it won't be an issue.

partyatmygaff

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

IE are allowed to stop passengers boarding 2 minutes before departure if they wish, leaving it 15 seconds before the scheduled departure to arrive on the platform is not the best idea.

Not allowing people to board does not mean "departure".

Departure is the train leaving the station and that should be the time on the timetable and not whenever the driver gets the urge to put the foot down.

partyatmygaff

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Request the train running data for the service from IE, the problem was you time was slower that IE which is actually correct, set your time by them in future and it won't be an issue.

That's odd. My watch was set to exactly the same as the real-time display.

Clearly that was also wrong, the train must have been in a time warp.

Hilly Bill

partyatmygaff wrote: »

Of course. Irish Rail can do no wrong, everything is their customer's fault.

The same thing happened to me. A train left 3-4 minutes early making me an hour late for my first lecture. On the way back home that same day, it was 10 minutes late (like 3/5 days that week). Funnily enough that happened the week that my weekly fare went up by nearly €4. It seems that the more money they take, the poorer their service becomes.

I wish I had an alternative to using Irish Rail but I don't. Before anyone else says it, yes I did complain to Irish Rail. As usual, it wasn't even acknowledged.

Quelle surprise.

Sometimes it is the customers fault. Last week a dart was taken out of service because of a door failure because a passenger kept holding the door open for a late friend. Anti social behaviour leading to trains being delayed due to the guards being called, passengers needing medical treatment and train delayed waiting for an ambulance. Actually, that all happened last week.
All that needs to be done here is for whoever is in charge of the trains to make sure that the drivers watches are in sync with the platform boards.

Jamie2k9

partyatmygaff wrote: »

That's odd. My watch was set to exactly the same as the real-time display.

Clearly that was also wrong, the train must have been in a time warp.

Then request the train data or for someone to look and see the exact departure time but I find it very hard it was 3 or 4 minutes. Are you sure it wasn't a delayed service and you actual service hadn't arrived.

bikeman1

Jame2k9, you are free to go onto the platform what ever time you want before departure on the Dublin Suburban. There is no such thing as closing the gate 2 minutes before departure.

I understand with InterCity in Heuston as people have to walk up the platform for their carriage etc.

Any of us who use the DART know that the timetable is a mere guidline for when the train will depart. Have a look at the latest on time stats which rightly so are to 5 mins late is on time. The last month 25% of DARTs were more than 5 minutes late. More than the leaf fall period and when there was snow and ice in 2010.

So coupled with 1 in 4 trains being over 5 minutes late we all know of cases where trains leave ahead of time like the OP.

Excellent work by IE as usual.

bikeman1

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Sometimes it is the customers fault. Last week a dart was taken out of service because of a door failure because a passenger kept holding the door open for a late friend. Anti social behaviour leading to trains being delayed due to the guards being called, passengers needing medical treatment and train delayed waiting for an ambulance. Actually, that all happened last week.
All that needs to be done here is for whoever is in charge of the trains to make sure that the drivers watches are in sync with the platform boards.

Drivers have a clock on their train radio which is in correct. It displays seconds as well. Drivers don't need a watch for the job.

partyatmygaff

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Sometimes it is the customers fault. Last week a dart was taken out of service because of a door failure because a passenger kept holding the door open for a late friend. Anti social behaviour leading to trains being delayed due to the guards being called, passengers needing medical treatment and train delayed waiting for an ambulance. Actually, that all happened last week.
All that needs to be done here is for whoever is in charge of the trains to make sure that the drivers watches are in sync with the platform boards.

Customers do stupid things sometimes. That's a given but it doesn't excuse Irish Rail for their incompetence in any way so i'll ignore it as a red herring.

According to you, all that needs to be done is for Irish Rail to do the very simple task of syncing the time across their network of staff and equipment.

Notwithstanding the fact that should be a given for a company who have been running trains for decades, how will that happen if they don't even acknowledge customer complaints? It's a bit difficult to sort out issues if you pretend they don't exist.

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Then request the train data or for someone to look and see the exact departure time but I find it very hard it was 3 or 4 minutes. Are you sure it wasn't a delayed service and you actual service hadn't arrived.

I checked. The past train would have had to have been 30 minutes delayed and it wasn't.

I'd have requested train data or asked Irish Rail to look up the exact departure time if they even acknowledged my complaint. What's the point in talking to a company who ignores you? The only option I have is Twitter where they're forced to engage with you in some way because it's public. Conveniently the scope of their Twitter team's power is to refer you to write a complaint to customer service who may as well not exist.

Even if they did look up the exact departure time and acknowledged the train left early, I have next-to-no confidence in them to sort the issue out. Their sole job is to run the train network, i'm certain they're all aware trains regularly depart and arrive earlier or later than timetabled and they either don't care or simply aren't competent enough to tighten their operations.

Hilly Bill

bikeman1 wrote: »

Drivers have a clock on their train radio which is in correct. It displays seconds as well. Drivers don't need a watch for the job.

Are you saying that the train clock is incorrect? If so then how can you be so sure?

Pawwed Rig

Happened me a couple of weeks ago with a DART from Crand Canal Dock left as I was walking up the steps 2 minutes before it was meant to. luckily there was another one due in 15 mins but slightly annoying none the less.

Need to DART to Raheny every Saturday so have started to cycle instead and it is actually quicker than getting the DART:D. Healthier for me too.

partyatmygaff

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Happened me a couple of weeks ago with a DART from Crand Canal Dock left as I was walking up the steps 2 minutes before it was meant to. luckily there was another one due in 15 mins but slightly annoying none the less.

Need to DART to Raheny every Saturday so have started to cycle instead and it is actually quicker than getting the DART:D. Healthier for me too.

Imagine if there was a dedicated cycle "highway" running beside the train tracks. No cars. Just a plain smooth road with exits and entrances near each "stop". I'd even pay a small weekly toll to use it.

Even in the rain, i'd much rather cycle on a straight road than have to rely on an expensive and unreliable human sardine can on wheels.

Hilly Bill

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Its your own fault, you left it tight. If you saw that it was tight then why were you walking down Westland row?

What's with so many people having this attitude? He can do whatever he likes as long as he's on the platform before the train is due to depart, and he was. It wasn't his own fault, it was IE's fault.

devnull

To be fair, the real time screens on the DART have been terrible in the last few weeks and very inaccurate, at Connolly you can see a screen saying 5 mins to Howth for example just as the train is pulling into the platform. I've seen similar on the Maynooth lines as well in the last couple of weeks, the estimates have seemed a bit over cautious.

I am used to the on train PIS systems being next to useless on anything but the Siemens refurbished DART units onboard, but the at station displays have been hitting new lows in the last few weeks.

Captain Chaos

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Are you saying that the train clock is incorrect? If so then how can you be so sure?

No, he is saying that the drivers know well what the correct time is and if they leave a stop early it's either lack of attention or they are intentionally doing it to finish a shift early or whatever.

Hilly Bill

Alayna Scruffy Beer wrote: »

What's with so many people having this attitude? He can do whatever he likes as long as he's on the platform before the train is due to depart, and he was. It wasn't his own fault, it was IE's fault.

He wasnt was he, he was walking down Westland row.

Hilly Bill

Captain Chaos wrote: »

No, he is saying that the drivers know well what the correct time is and if they leave a stop early it's either lack of attention or they are intentionally doing it to finish a shift early or whatever.

For all you know ,the driver could be leaving at the right time going with the info he has. I doubt that its because he wants to finish early.

Pawwed Rig

Hilly Bill wrote: »

For all you know ,the driver could be leaving at the right time going with the info he has. I doubt that its because he wants to finish early.

I am sure that is the case but there is something going wrong somewhere

L1011

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Its your own fault, you left it tight. If you saw that it was tight then why were you walking down Westland row?

No, its not their fault. The train leaving before its advertised time is at fault. Ridiculous covering for Irish Rail, again.

whupdedo

I have some experience as a contractor working for i e and although I have nothing against public sector workers, i found rail workers to be the most self serving cosseted lazy good for nothing bastards I have ever had the pleasure to work with, and this translates from the top down, it's no wonder they have no respect for their customers when they are so institutionalised into believing they are pretty much insulated from any sort of discipline or reprimand for ignorance and carelessness

Hilly Bill

Hilly Bill wrote: »

He wasnt was he, he was walking down Westland row.

Timetable said 23.00, he was there before 22.59 and the train had left. How do you figure that he's to blame?

markpb

Alayna Scruffy Beer wrote: »

Timetable said 23.00, he was there before 22.59 and the train had left. How do you figure that he's to blame?

Because HB has never found a problem that couldn't be blamed on the customer yet. It was inevitable on a thread like this.

Losty Dublin

Alayna Scruffy Beer wrote: »

Timetable said 23.00, he was there before 22.59 and the train had left. How do you figure that he's to blame?

Not justifying an early departure but to allow yourself barely a minute or two of window to catch a train or bus home is cutting it fine, least of all the last train of the day. The train leaving a minute early may be out of OP's control but getting there there that bit earlier is.

whupdedo

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Not justifying an early departure but to allow yourself barely a minute or two of window to catch a train or bus home is cutting it fine, least of all the last train of the day. The train leaving a minute early may be out of OP's control but getting there there that bit earlier is.

If the train left on time it wouldn't matter how long he was their before it left, whether he was their an hour or a minute it shouldn't make a difference if the train stuck to the schedule

Losty Dublin

whupdedo wrote: »

If the train left on time it wouldn't matter how long he was their before it left, whether he was their an hour or a minute it shouldn't make a difference if the train stuck to the schedule

Wether or not the train should not have left marginally early, that isn't isn't my point though. Getting there by the skin of your teeth to any appointment or service which is time based will come back to bite you sooner or later.

The moral here is to leave a little bit of leeway for unforeseen circumstances.

Captain Chaos

If I left work early and it was seen on my clock card even by 1min I'd get a bolocking for it. Same thing here really.

markpb

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Wether or not the train should not have left marginally early, that isn't isn't my point though. Getting there by the skin of your teeth to any appointment or service which is time based will come back to bite you sooner or later.

The moral here is to leave a little bit of leeway for unforeseen circumstances.

What you're saying is absolutely true and prudent but it's not the way most people think about urban transit. It's fine to suggest passengers arrive early for an intercity bus or flight but not for an urban train/tram trip which might only take 10-20 minutes in total. People just don't think that way.

If they're in work, they've no control over the time they leave so they'll try to get the next train, whatever that is. If they're at the cinema or theatre, they've no control over the time they get out. If they're out having dinner or drinks with friends, they can't guarantee the time they leave, they'll stand up to go, goodbyes will take a while, etc and they end up running for the train. The alternative is that they leave in plenty of time and end their night out standing on the cold, wet platforms of Conolly waiting ten minutes for their next train like a good German :-)

n97 mini

Are the red LED displays still showing a different time to the white LED displays in Pearse?

loyatemu

n97 mini wrote: »

Are the red LED displays still showing a different time to the white LED displays in Pearse?

the white ones have been turned off for months, not sure why they were installed in the first place.

el pasco

Sometimes BE buses don't even turn up at all!!

Losty Dublin

markpb wrote: »

What you're saying is absolutely true and prudent but it's not the way most people think about urban transit. It's fine to suggest passengers arrive early for an intercity bus or flight but not for an urban train/tram trip which might only take 10-20 minutes in total. People just don't think that way.

If they're in work, they've no control over the time they leave so they'll try to get the next train, whatever that is. If they're at the cinema or theatre, they've no control over the time they get out. If they're out having dinner or drinks with friends, they can't guarantee the time they leave, they'll stand up to go, goodbyes will take a while, etc and they end up running for the train. The alternative is that they leave in plenty of time and end their night out standing on the cold, wet platforms of Conolly waiting ten minutes for their next train like a good German :-)

Oh I appreciate that in many cases we don't have much leeway to get away early and it's impractical to be expect people to be making the LUAS or DART 10 minutes in advance just in case. However, when you do have leeway, as was in this case....

And before you say it, I have missed the last bus and Luas before so I've learnt the hard way

partyatmygaff

Hilly Bill wrote: »

For all you know ,the driver could be leaving at the right time going with the info he has. I doubt that its because he wants to finish early.

What's your point? No one's personally blaming any individual driver (because quite evidently, it's not just one driver responsible for this mess).

If the reason for trains leaving early is the driver having wrong information, then it's still Irish Rail's fault. It doesn't change anything in the fact that Irish Rail have serious issues with sticking to their timetable, don't care and can't/won't do anything to sort it out.

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Wether or not the train should not have left marginally early, that isn't isn't my point though. Getting there by the skin of your teeth to any appointment or service which is time based will come back to bite you sooner or later.

The moral here is to leave a little bit of leeway for unforeseen circumstances.

No, the moral of the story is to leave a little bit of leeway for Irish Rail who neglect to add a disclaimer at the end of their timetables with +/- 10 minutes.

Hilly Bill

MYOB wrote: »

No, its not their fault. The train leaving before its advertised time is at fault. Ridiculous covering for Irish Rail, again.

If you walk down a street within 2 minutes of your train leaving then dont expect to make that train.

patrickbrophy18

When I was working in Dunnes Stores, Cornelscourt back in 2005, I had to rely on the 59 bus (operated by Irish Rail's sister company, Dublin Bus) to get home. It's a 5-10 minute walk between Cornelscourt and Mackintosh Park where the bus departs and terminates. So, there I was walking towards Mackintosh Park 10 minutes before the last bus was supposed to leave and it left right there and then before I could even make it to the bus stop. This was at 10:40 on a Sunday evening and I was left with no other choice but to pay €10 for a taxi home. It almost happened to me again the next time I was going home and I pegged it towards the bus. Regardless of whether or not people were waiting at the time, leaving the stop 10 minutes before the departure time is unacceptable. Placing the blame back on the customer is just a cowardly cop-out response. On time is on time. 10 minutes of slack either side of this is laughable and a testament to the true culture of the transport organization. On the other hand, their counterparts in New York and London take punctuality very seriously and is evident in their strict timekeeping.

Meanwhile, back in Ireland, the 10 minutes of slack could easily place a commuters job in jeopardy if they are on a strict 9-5 regime. As posted by partyatmygaff:

partyatmygaff wrote: »

The same thing happened to me. A train left 4 minutes early making me nearly an hour late.

While it might/mightn't have been a job in the above case, it still demonstrates a complete lack of consideration for commuters schedules whether they have tight schedules or not.

Hilly Bill

markpb wrote: »

Because HB has never found a problem that couldn't be blamed on the customer yet. It was inevitable on a thread like this.

I leave the problem finding to you mark.

Hilly Bill

whupdedo wrote: »

If the train left on time it wouldn't matter how long he was their before it left, whether he was their an hour or a minute it shouldn't make a difference if the train stuck to the schedule

If the op was there an hour before then this thread wouldnt be here.