Signalling straight ahead on mini-roundabout

J_R

Hi,


when i was an instructor I had to deal with a three exit roundabout whose first exit was at 12'oclock . (Obviously when coming from one direction only and it was not a mini-roundabout but had two lanes)

Forgetting about roundabouts for the moment, the basic rule of indicating, you should indicate as soon as possible but not so soon that it might mislead. So, I would have my pupils indicate on approach. There was no possibiity of misleading anybody as you were indicating that you were taking the next turn on the left. As it was a roundabout, this would mean the first exit. Irrespective of its position on the roundabout - why should it matter where its situated ? What difference could it possibly make ?

However, the problem with this was that the moment we entered the roundabout and started following the road the indicator would cancel. Pupils would then re-indicate but as there was now a slight "right" turn on the wheel it was a futile exercise as it would immediately cancel again. A few pupils, ('specially the womin) could get really botherd by this and start fighting with the indicator almost to the exclusion of everything else., I would correct them, tell them wait to re-indicate at the 9'o'clock position where it would not cancel. This would be fine then on lessons, but I was always afraid that with the nerves in the test they would forget and revert to panicking.

My pupils did not get marked for indicating before entering the roundabout.

However, one day I was following a car whose drivers job description/title at that time was "Chief Tester of Ireland". He did not indicate on approach, but waited until 9'o'clock position. Good enough for him, good enough for my pupils, so from then on I instructed my pupils to do the same. This sorted nicely the cancelling indicator problem.

My pupils did not get marked for waiting until 9'o'clock to indicate

MascotDec85

Good enough for my ADI years ago, good enough for my ADI trainer, good enough for the "Chief Tester of Ireland" good enough for Mascot and his pupils.

GreeBo

MascotDec85 wrote: »

they'd know that no signal means straight ahead.

Or that you forgot to indicate, or that your front indicators are broken, or that you dont bother indicating or any manner of other things.

Out of interest, whats the issue with signalling as you approach a roundabout where the first exit is at 12?
I cant see a downside...

willietherock

willietherock wrote: »

Another q on mini roundabouts
If the second exit is at 12 0clock, I've been told you don't have to indicate at all just drive straight on. True or false?

Irish School of Motoring youtube mock test . At ~24.30 he drives straight through a mini roundabout, 2nd exit 12 o clock, and states no indicator necessary

Eire Go Brach

You beat me to it willie. Although this is a different ISM video. This thread reminded me of it.

I would not indicate if I was taking the 2nd exit going straight ahead on a mini roundabout. If the 2nd exit was after 12 on the clock. I would indicate right. But not left when I exit the roundabout.

If you look at this Ism pretest video at 46:45. There is a section on mini roundabouts. The guy speaks about knocking of the steering when you indicate left coming off mini roundabouts. I have noticed this myself. So I no longer do it.

It's also a great video for anyone doing there test. I found it very helpful.
Although I think it's a few years old and there not using the RSA "Golden Rule" as in the clock face.

http://youtu.be/vNJC5AO7s0k

cerastes

willietherock wrote: »

Irish School of Motoring youtube mock test . At ~24.30 he drives straight through a mini roundabout, 2nd exit 12 o clock, and states no indicator necessary

Im not convinced and I havent even gotten to the mini roundabout, unless things have completely changed since I did my test.
At 8.00 alone he drives over a solid white line of the hatched area? I cant see how they could promote doing that in a test? even if there are no cars approaching, he's in the other lane (slightly as he says)
Straight after that a number of cars take possession of the junction with a green light, but without a filter light, I was taught one car can take possession of the junction, for the reason, if the lights change there isn't a que of vehicles then rushing to get through a red light, hence one vehicle at a time unless its obviously clear or of course if the filter is on.

Or what he says at 23.45, drop a gear to show you are reading the road??
Id say, drop a gear if necessary, which might be necessary for reducing to an appropriate speed.

ISM, Im not convinced, not just as its only been a few days since I saw an ISM car with one person in it go all the way around a roundabout to the 3rd exit in the outside lane.

J_R

Hi,

I would not use them as the definitive guide.


In a car, on a mini-roundabout, if you have trouble with your steering and indicators, then very sinply you are going too fast. (unless an EXTREMELY mini mini roundabout AND you are driving a Rolls or similar).

The British Highway code much clearer

Mini-roundabouts. Approach these in the same way as normal roundabouts. All vehicles MUST pass round the central markings except large vehicles which are physically incapable of doing so. Remember, there is less space to manoeuvre and less time to signal. Avoid making U-turns at mini-roundabouts. Beware of others doing this.
Laws RTA 1988 sect 36 & TSRGD regs 10(1) & 16(1)

In another training video at ISM Driving Guide - Roundabouts going straight ahead 2nd exit, at 2.27 he says "I'm in the right lane, so I must come off in the right lane" Which is nonsense.

This must be where the "You can not change lanes in a roundabout" originated"

Another minor point, he keeps using the expression "You have the right of way". Was taught that wording gives a bad impression. Much better to use "You have priority"

Whilst I'm here, they must be the ones who invented the idiotic MSMM routine.

PS. IMHO. A person who believes it is acceptable to drive into a junction at such a speed that they are unable to obey the road markings and who have so little control over their steering that they are unable to flick the indicator stalk should not be teaching those beliefs.

miss no stars

I'm not surprised there's confusion over this based on my experience...

So I'll share my experience from my test in Raheny recently enough (end of September).

From my test (zero marks at all, even grade one, for signalling or anything to do with roundabouts):

There was a whole string of mini-roundabouts, none of which had a left turn from my approach. Went straight through all of them except for the last, at which I turned right. I took my ADI's advice on signalling.

My ADI's advice on mini-roundabouts was:
1. Indicate your direction on approach
-Left: left indicator;
-right: right indicator;
-straight through: no indicator.
2. They're too small to do the normal signalling on a bigger roundabout. If you're going right, don't flap about with signalling right, cancelling, signalling left. Just signal right. If you're spending that much time signalling in such a small area you're not spending enough time steering properly, or making sufficient progress, or observing what's around you, or a combination. The signal on the approach is sufficient to tell any other traffic what your intentions are. It's not like a bigger roundabout where you can be waiting for a gap to join in and haven't seen where the cars on the roundabout came from - it's clear as day where every vehicle on the junction came from.
3. If you're unsure whether it's a large mini-roundabout or small full-sized roundabout look at the sign on the approach.

So in my test I followed his advice. I went straight through (without signalling) about three mini-roundabouts and then turned right on the fourth having signaled right on the approach and not faffed about with cancelling then signaling right. No marks to indicate that anything incorrect had occurred. Nothing whatsoever. Tester never mentioned it, never seemed unhappy, nada.

But I was a bit uncertain going into it because my instructor did warn me that recently some of the testers that were normally from Finglas (test was in Raheny but they seemed to be bringing in extra testers on a part time basis) want you to signal left on the approach if you're going straight through and there's no left turn available.

Personally, I think it's a little odd to signal on the approach that you're turning left if you're going straight ahead. Surely the point of the signal is to inform other traffic at the junction of where you intend to go. No indicator = straight ahead, clear as day. So I went with what made most sense to me and what I had been taught and was not marked down for it.

Sometimes I think people get so caught up in the detail of wording that they can't see the wood for the trees - if you're going straight ahead, don't signal left on the approach. You're not going left.

But, having said all of that, go with what your local ADI says. They have students in and out of test centres most days of the week. They know the local lay of the land (which, unfortunately, is as susceptible to local ideas as everything else in this country). They know what their students are picking up marks for and aren't picking up marks for.


As for why some people get marks for doing one thing when others don't get marks for doing the same thing..? Or for students doing different things and neither getting marked for it..? (Both of which seem to be happening) Who knows? If I was to hazard a guess I'd say it comes down to whether or not you make your intentions clear to other traffic in the vicinity, in the situation in which you find yourself, while also continuing to drive fluidly, maintain proper observation and read the road properly.

loobylou

miss no stars wrote: »

Sometimes I think people get so caught up in the detail of wording that they can't see the wood for the trees - if you're going straight ahead, don't signal left on the approach. You're not going left.

But you ARE going left. The only way to exit a roundabout is by turning left. So if you're going "straight ahead" ie 12 o clock, you are still entering and then exiting the roundabout.
ROTR say to treat a mini roundabout like you would any other. Signalling on mini roundabouts can be a little more difficult given that there is less time between exits. Thats why both methods described in this thread are acceptable in the test. However you must ask yourself which is the better practice?
An indicator is used to warn and inform other road users. Incorrect signalling causes confusion. No signals cause confusion.
If you approach a mini roundabout intending to travel straight ahead at the first exit and signal left on approach, you warn/inform, no grounds for confusion.
Equally if you approach and enter roundabout and signal left at 9 o clock, again no grounds for confusion but other traffic has less notice of your intention.
If you fail to signal at all nobody will know what you intend to do and may have to slow or stop to see where you are going.
So, on balance, it is best to signal as early as possible and ALWAYS signal your exit from a roundabout.

cerastes

I think this is just going to continue going around in circles, with no indication of when to get off.

miss no stars

loobylou wrote: »

But you ARE going left.

If you are point the same direction after the roundabout as before the roundabout you did not turn left

You exited the roundabout, yes, and for THAT you indicate appropriately.

Signalling before the roundabout is to signal your intentions to other vehicles in the area as to where you're going. Signalling that you want to go left only to go straight through is misleading.

If I intend to be pointing to the right of the direction I am currently going (aka, turn right), I signal right in advance. If I intend to go straight, I do not put on an indicator in advance. If I intend to be pointing left of where I'm currently pointing, I signal left in advance.

You've someone on here saying that the chief tester in Ireland does not signal left when intending to go straight (as in, they made their intention to go straight perfectly clear by not using indicators, then signaled their exit when approaching the exit), yet people are still claiming that signalling left is correct to do in advance of the junction and that not signalling left in advance when you intend to go straight is misleading? Misleading is signalling one thing when you intend to do another. Signal left and go straight? Misleading.

Anyway, I think people here are firmly in their own camps so I don't see the point in arguing further because some people are impermeable. I'm happy to continue as I am because having done it multiple times in the test and the tester finding nothing wrong with my signalling, road position, steering, observation, ability to read the road at roundabouts (or anywhere, as it happens) and having that endorsed by an excellent instructor as well as reading on here that I'm in the same camp as the chief instructor, I'm happy enough that I'm not doing anything wrong.

For those who've yet to do their test and are reading this this is the best advice on the thread:

Do what your local ADI recommends. Ignore everything else here. If you want to pass your test, go with what your ADI says.

loobylou

How do you exit a roundabout without turning left?

miss no stars

loobylou wrote: »

How do you exit a roundabout without turning left?

On a mini-roundabout as small as some of them are? By going straight or turning right.

cerastes

miss no stars wrote: »

On a mini-roundabout as small as some of them are? By going straight or turning right.

In a manner of speaking, you are turning left off the roundabout to go onto a departing lane,

I'm out of here no more for me.

loobylou

Taking a left turn is not simply a matter of whether or not you turn the steering wheel.
You turn left to join a roundabout and you turn left to exit it.

miss no stars

loobylou wrote: »

Taking a left turn is not simply a matter of whether or not you turn the steering wheel.
You turn left to join a roundabout and you turn left to exit it.

Well then if you're turning left to join with the intention of exiting to your right on it then surely you must indicate left to join it, then signal right, then cancel, then signal left, right? :rolleyes: OF course not, you signal your intention.

loobylou

miss no stars wrote: »

Well then if you're turning left to join with the intention of exiting to your right on it then surely you must indicate left to join it, then signal right, then cancel, then signal left, right? :rolleyes: OF course not, you signal your intention.

Of course that would be wrong. See my earlier post, incorrect signals cause confusion. No signals will also cause confusion.

miss no stars

loobylou wrote: »

Of course that would be wrong. See my earlier post, incorrect signals cause confusion. No signals will also cause confusion.

So let's say you're approaching and there are 4 exits, all nice and neatly dispersed evenly around the clockface. Are you saying that no signal would cause confusion? Because if I was approaching and saw a car approaching from the opposite direction that was not signalling, that means to me that they are going straight ahead.

Incorrect signalling causes confusion. Not signalling either direction in advance of joining the roundabout can be correct signalling. Anyway, I'm out of here. Two camps, firmly divided.

sawdoubters

you would indicate when you pass the last exit before your exit,


do not indicate 'left' until you have passed the exit before the one you intend to take

loobylou

I don't think we're talking about the same thing.
I'm simply saying you should always try and indicate before you exit a roundabout. I may be wrong but it appears to me that you think that thats not necessary if you are going "straight" through.
Edit. This refers to Miss No Stars, not the post immediately above.

MascotDec85

loobylou wrote: »

But you ARE going left. The only way to exit a roundabout is by turning left. So if you're going "straight ahead" ie 12 o clock, you are still entering and then exiting the roundabout.
ROTR say to treat a mini roundabout like you would any other. Signalling on mini roundabouts can be a little more difficult given that there is less time between exits. Thats why both methods described in this thread are acceptable in the test. However you must ask yourself which is the better practice?
An indicator is used to warn and inform other road users. Incorrect signalling causes confusion. No signals cause confusion.
If you approach a mini roundabout intending to travel straight ahead at the first exit and signal left on approach, you warn/inform, no grounds for confusion.
Equally if you approach and enter roundabout and signal left at 9 o clock, again no grounds for confusion but other traffic has less notice of your intention.
If you fail to signal at all nobody will know what you intend to do and may have to slow or stop to see where you are going.
So, on balance, it is best to signal as early as possible and ALWAYS signal your exit from a roundabout.

What's confusing is when people decide to put their own spin on things.

If taking the 12 o'clock exit you are not going left, you are going straight. You bear left on the exit. Same way as you would if you are ultimately turning right, you bear left on the exit.

As you rightly said the rotr says you treat a mini-roundabout the same way as you would a normal one. Now, if everyone just started doing exactly that there would be no confusion.

12 o'clock exit. No signal on approach with a left signal at 9 o'clock or as you're passing the first exit. It's that simple. It also extremely easy to extend your finger onto your indicator stalk to put the left indicator on to show your intention to leave the roundabout whether you're on a standard or mini-roundabout.

loobylou

MascotDec85 wrote: »

12 o'clock exit. No signal on approach with a left signal at 9 o'clock or as you're passing the first exit. It's that simple. It also extremely easy to extend your finger onto your indicator stalk to put the left indicator on to show your intention to leave the roundabout whether you're on a standard or mini-roundabout.

Agreed. The poster I disagreed with said she went through 3 roundabouts without signalling (at all) because she was going straight ahead.

MascotDec85

loobylou wrote: »

Agreed. The poster I disagreed with said she went through 3 roundabouts without signalling (at all) because she was going straight ahead.

I was also using your post to highlight the way that people confuse the situation and this thread is a prime example.

Roundabouts are very simple once you follow the basic rules.

sawdoubters

you would signal even going straight to tell other drivers waiting to get on,that your getting off,on a mini roundabout its quite hard as you nearly off it as soon as you get on,

MascotDec85

sawdoubters wrote: »

you would signal even going straight to tell other drivers waiting to get on,that your getting off,on a mini roundabout its quite hard as you nearly off it as soon as you get on,

Can you please tell me where it says this?

You don't have a straight ahead signal on a car. No signal on approach. A mini-roundabout should be treated the same as a normal one. Extending your finger to the signal whilst keeping your hand on the steering wheel is not difficult.

J_R

MascotDec85 wrote: »

Can you please tell me where it says this?

You don't have a straight ahead signal on a car. No signal on approach. A mini-roundabout should be treated the same as a normal one. Extending your finger to the signal whilst keeping your hand on the steering wheel is not difficult.

Hi,

Therein may lie the problem for some people. They use the indicator stalk exactly the same way as the gear lever. Hand off wheel, firm grip of stalk, move into position, hand back on wheel again.

That and perhaps attempting to indicate whilst they still have a right lock on the wheel.

And of course going too fast.

J_R

Hi,


However, re. above post, Normally an indicator should always be given in plenty of time so that other road users have time to assimilate and act on the information given, otherwise it can be of little or no benefit.


On a very small mini roundabout the time between indicating left that you are exiting and actually taking the exit can be extremely short so may not be of much benefit.

However it sometimes can be of great benefit so my advice was to get into the habit of always indicating, Especially in the test, some examiners will mark for not indicating, others may not. But none will mark you for indicating (correctly)

Re.my post No. 38

I have sent the following to the RSA. As I had to sign it "Ex ADI" they may not bother replying. Also may receive a reply in " civil service speak". Saying nothing definite. Of which I have received a few.

there is a training video produced by ISM, relevant section can be viewed at :-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XR-iuHWxbh0

at 0535 the driver commences to explain Mini Rondabouts.

at 0550 he says "There are two different kinds of mini roundabouts, ones which are raised slightly, these you will have to come all the way round obviously and ones which are painted, these are generally on the smaller junctions".

He takes a right on a mini roundabout naratting "slightly going over the roundabout in the middle, otherwise I will be forced to hit the kerb"

He then takes a right at the next roundabout saying at 0626: "you will notice I am not signalling left exiting the roundabout as with the smaller roundabouts especially when turning right there is too much steering involved and by signalling can sometimes throw your steering off"

Now my questions.

Surely those two points are incorrect. ?

1st point I know some county councils sometimes get it wrong but would they deliberately build/mark a junction/roundabout where it would be impossible for a car to negotiate without infringing on the road markings.? To do so would bring the entire road marking system into disrepute. By selecting the appropriate speed surely it should be possible to negotiate all mini roundabouts without crossing solid white lines ?

Is the driver correct, is is acceptable to cross the center painted markings of a roundabut ?

and point two.
If the driver is incapable of flicking an indicator stalk without losing control, would that not simply mean he was going too fast for the conditions. ?

.

I await your response with interest

MascotDec85

I look forward to that reply!

J_R

Hi,

Sent the following to the RSA:

there is a training video produced by ISM, relevant section can be viewed at :-

ISM Training Video

at 0535 the driver commences to explain Mini Rondabouts.

at 0550 he says "There are two different kinds of mini roundabouts, ones which are raised slightly, these you will have to come all the way round obviously and ones which are painted, these are generally on the smaller junctions".

He takes a right on a mini roundabout naratting "slightly going over the roundabout in the middle, otherwise I will be forced to hit the kerb"

He then takes a right at the next roundabout saying at 0626: "you will notice I am not signalling left exiting the roundabout as with the smaller roundabouts especially when turning right there is too much steering involved and by signalling can sometimes throw your steering off"

Now my questions.

Surely those two points are incorrect. ?

1st point I know some county councils sometimes get it wrong but would they deliberately build/mark a junction/roundabout where it would be impossible for a car to negotiate without infringing on the road markings.? To do so would bring the entire road marking system into disrepute. By selecting the appropriate speed surely it should be possible to negotiate all mini roundabouts without crossing solid white lines ?

Is the driver correct, is is acceptable to cross the center painted markings of a roundabut ?

and point two.
If the driver is incapable of flicking an indicator stalk without losing control, would that not simply mean he was going too fast for the conditions. ?

.

I await your response with interest

Received the following reply:

A Driver must know what traffic signs and road markings mean before driving on a public road. A Driver must know and understand these signs and markings and respond correctly when they see them on the road. Traffic signs and roadway markings are divided into three main categories, Regulatory, Warning and Information.

Road Markings are a traffic sign in the form and design of a marking on the surface of the road. They have the same standing as upright signs. Drivers must obey these road markings.



A Driver must always signal before they change their course. This means signalling clearly and in good time. The law requires a Driver to signal their intention of doing things on the road. This means signalling properly.

When taking an exit off a Roundabout (past 12 0’clock-right)

Approach in the right hand lane (unless road markings say otherwise) indicate right on the approach and leave the indicator on until the driver is past the exit before the one they intend to take. Then change to the left turn indicator. Move over to the left on the roundabout and continue signalling left to leave

So, clear enough. You are not allowed to cross the white circle in the middle and you must indicate.

Did not ask about the other video at:- ISM Training Video
when he said "I'm in the right lane, so I must come off in the right lane" because at the next roundabout he enters in the right comes off in the left. Also voice over says the same.

briany

This is a roundabout with 3 exits out the back of Dublin airport. Going by the advice of this thread, if approaching via the arrow and going the first exit, I would signal left on the approach, just the same as if the first exit were in the standard 9 'o clock position? 'cause up 'til now, I've just been treating it as a standard straight through.