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HELP! Got Postgrad Grant last year now SUSI looking for money back?!!

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  • 10-01-2014 11:21pm
    #1
    Bloodfued
    Registered Users Posts: 16 ✭


    HELP, has anyone else received a letter in the last few days from SUSI looking for money back??

    I got a letter today saying that SUSI had an internal audit for 2012 and that i was actually ineligible for the grant I received a year ago (€2000 for fees).

    They say that they want to reassess me as dependant student based on my parents wages and if i don’t agree to reassessment that they will have to
    'implement a recovery process in order to recoup the cost of the fees that were paid' to my college, ie. give them €2000.

    I won't pass if they assess my parents and I'm in my late 20s and independant for years.

    I was approved for the grant, did and finished the course; there was no mention of this before now.
    Tagged:


«134

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    #2
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,799 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Did they say why you were not eligible.


    I would suggest seeking advice from the USI Education Officer (ring her) and also the Ombudsmans office.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #3
    StreamsideM
    Registered Users Posts: 1 ✭StreamsideM


    The same thing is happening to me, except the figure is over €6000. I would never have applied for the post grad had I known I had to have been 3 years out of college before I was eligible but I was 2 years and 8 months out of college. They granted me the money at the time. Realistically I'm not going to be able to pay this back, I'm freaking out!


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    #4
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,799 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    I had a feeling this would happen. I suspected SUSI were not strictly applying the three year rule for postgrads.

    Maybe people should ask MABS if they think that it might be possible to negotiate with SUSI.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #5
    Bloodfued
    Registered Users Posts: 16 ✭Bloodfued


    Yes it was the three year rule that got me aswell. I rang the Ombudsman yesterday and my local TD.

    The Ombusdman said that there would be a SUSI appeals process, then a Dept. of Education appeals process before it would arrive at the Ombudsmans door.

    I did the course on the basis of being approved for the grant, I was on the dole at the time. I was advised by my TD to send an email back saying that I applied and received the grant in good faith and that the mistake lay with SUSI and that I should not be held resposible.


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    #6
    corglass
    Registered Users Posts: 1,112 ✭✭✭corglass


    It seems many people are getting this letter this week. Anyone got any ideas how to tackle it?

    What statutory powers do susi have to recover this money if it was paid in error?


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  • Options
    #7
    W86indow
    Registered Users Posts: 159 ✭✭W86indow


    It was their error !!!!! there is no way you should be made pay this back

    they are chancing their arm


  • Options
    #8
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,799 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    W86indow wrote: »
    It was their error !!!!! there is no way you should be made pay this back

    they are chancing their arm

    It's not clear how SUSI can recover the money.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Options
    #9
    Clareh123
    Registered Users Posts: 59 ✭✭Clareh123


    The same thing happened to me- I got a fee exemption when I did my masters last year and now they're looking for the €6,000 they paid UCD for my fees. It's like giving someone a birthday present and then going up to them more than a year later and saying 'oops, I wasn't meant to give you that. I'll have it back now please'. I knew SUSI was a terrible organisation but this takes the biscuit.

    I wrote back to them saying that I would not agree to be reassessed based on my parents' income since I have been living away from home for nearly 5 years, was fully honest and transparent in my application and would not have even done my masters if I had not been assured by SUSI's advisers that I would qualify for the fee exemption. They wrote back saying that they would have to recover the money from me but that will be more pointless than a white crayon because I have no money.

    I'm just going to ignore them and hope they give up chancing their arm eventually. I somehow don't see them trying to sue us all over it, it would be reputational suicide for them.


  • Options
    #10
    GarIT
    Registered Users Posts: 8,671 ✭✭✭GarIT


    Can someone explain the three year rule? Can I not apply for a postgrad grant until three years after I finish my undergrad?


  • Options
    #11
    donegal11
    Closed Accounts Posts: 689 ✭✭✭donegal11


    GarIT wrote: »
    Can someone explain the three year rule? Can I not apply for a postgrad grant until three years after I finish my undergrad?

    You can but you can't be classed as independent of your parents if you were dependent on them during your undergrad until after 3years no matter what your actual circumstances are.


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    #12
    GarIT
    Registered Users Posts: 8,671 ✭✭✭GarIT


    donegal11 wrote: »
    You can but you can't be classed as independent of your parents if you were dependent on them during your undergrad until after 3years no matter what your actual circumstances are.

    Oh that's ok, nearly died there.


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    #13
    bigdave3000
    Registered Users Posts: 2 ✭bigdave3000


    Got the same letter from them. debating whether to call them or just ignore it...


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    #14
    bigdave3000
    Registered Users Posts: 2 ✭bigdave3000


    Just rang the helpdesk there, they basically couldn't do anything. I was advised to submit the form to be assessed as a dependent student and submit a formal complaint with it.


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    #15
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,799 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Wow SUSI messed up big time on this.

    I presume they are going to engage solicitors and go legal to recover money on this.

    If it was me I'd be getting advice from as many people as possible; local TD, ombudsmans office, USI education officer, MABS - maybe if SUSI are looking to recover money they might accept a deal on it

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #16
    Clareh123
    Registered Users Posts: 59 ✭✭Clareh123


    donegal11 wrote: »
    You can but you can't be classed as independent of your parents if you were dependent on them during your undergrad until after 3years no matter what your actual circumstances are.

    In my case I was independent of my parents through my whole undergrad. The reason they gave me is that I wasn't over 23 when I first started college:

    "As you were not 23 years of age on the first of January of your year of entry for the first time to an approved higher education course and do not meet the criteria to be assessed under the re-entry requirement of the clause 4 (c) you were not entitled to apply as an independent mature student."

    The information that I got from SUSI back when I was deciding whether I could afford the masters, and the criteria they subsequently assessed me on, was the reference period of 1st Jan - 31st December 2011.

    Again, I really don't see them getting away with this. I'm not a lawyer but I imagine equity would intervene on the side of the students because of the sheer unfairness of SUSI deciding to apply this rule when most people relied on their own (false) information in deciding to pursue their courses, and finished their studies half a year ago.


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    #17
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,799 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Clareh123 wrote: »
    In my case I was independent of my parents through my whole undergrad. The reason they gave me is that I wasn't over 23 when I first started college:

    "As you were not 23 years of age on the first of January of your year of entry for the first time to an approved higher education course and do not meet the criteria to be assessed under the re-entry requirement of the clause 4 (c) you were not entitled to apply as an independent mature student."

    The information that I got from SUSI back when I was deciding whether I could afford the masters, and the criteria they subsequently assessed me on, was the reference period of 1st Jan - 31st December 2011.

    Again, I really don't see them getting away with this. I'm not a lawyer but I imagine equity would intervene on the side of the students because of the sheer unfairness of SUSI deciding to apply this rule when most people relied on their own (false) information in deciding to pursue their courses, and finished their studies half a year ago.

    Did you a grant during your undergrad?

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #18
    Clareh123
    Registered Users Posts: 59 ✭✭Clareh123


    mango salsa wrote: »
    Did you a grant during your undergrad?

    I did indeed.


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    #19
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,799 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Clareh123 wrote: »
    I did indeed.

    And were you independently assessed for the entire period?

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #20
    Clareh123
    Registered Users Posts: 59 ✭✭Clareh123


    mango salsa wrote: »
    And were you independently assessed for the entire period?

    As far as I can remember, yes I was.


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    #21
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,799 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Clareh123 wrote: »
    As far as I can remember, yes I was.

    It could be argued that if you were independently assessed from the point of entry that you did not in fact need to be assessed based on your parents at the point of reentry as your status was not changing. It's a bit of a technical argument.

    Was there a break between your undergrad and postgrad?

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #22
    freewilli88
    Registered Users Posts: 22 ✭freewilli88


    I got the same letter from this shower of halfwits! They were an absolute disaster to deal with in the first place, only being awarded a grant after months of back and forths and now they come at me with this internal audit nonsense!

    They cant in their right mind expect students, whose decision to pursue higher education courses depended on the awarding of the grant, to give it back! Its not only unfair its inhumane! Some I'm sure, like myself, are now on jobseekers looking for work after completing said course, so even if they chased up their pipe-dream, what can the realisticly expect to get out of it?

    On a side note, that point that they seem to often refer to where they state at least 3 years since previous education im nearly certain is new wording! I was extremely thorough in my application for grant and read through all of the fine print and clause nonsense and never came across this! Its so blatent that had it been there I would not have bothered applying in the first place! They have thrown that in since I applied I'm nearly certain, can anyone confirm that?


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    #23
    corglass
    Registered Users Posts: 1,112 ✭✭✭corglass


    Clareh123 wrote: »
    In my case I was independent of my parents through my whole undergrad. The reason they gave me is that I wasn't over 23 when I first started college:

    "As you were not 23 years of age on the first of January of your year of entry for the first time to an approved higher education course and do not meet the criteria to be assessed under the re-entry requirement of the clause 4 (c) you were not entitled to apply as an independent mature student."

    The information that I got from SUSI back when I was deciding whether I could afford the masters, and the criteria they subsequently assessed me on, was the reference period of 1st Jan - 31st December 2011.

    Again, I really don't see them getting away with this. I'm not a lawyer but I imagine equity would intervene on the side of the students because of the sheer unfairness of SUSI deciding to apply this rule when most people relied on their own (false) information in deciding to pursue their courses, and finished their studies half a year ago.

    Anyone have any update on how susi are handling this?


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    #24
    Bloodfued
    Registered Users Posts: 16 ✭Bloodfued


    corglass wrote: »
    Anyone have any update on how susi are handling this?

    I responded by email saying that it was their mistake therefore their responsibility not mine.

    I got an email back which was a direct copy and paste from the letter and also to send them back the 'declaration form' which basically looks for my course details, pps no. etc.

    I have no intention of giving them my info(although they have it all on file already so why would they to ask for it again - typical SUSI).

    I have since replied again asking how to appeal this and I am waiting for them to get back to me.

    I wonder how many people have been effected by this?


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    #25
    mini5476
    Registered Users Posts: 67 ✭✭mini5476


    I got the same letter, and as I plan to emigrate in April I think I'll just go down the ignore it route. Although I don't graduate til the end of February so I'm worried that if they get onto UCC they may be able to stop me graduating since I may technically have never paid my full fees.

    What bugs me is that if SUSI had said no in the first place I would have been eligible for the €2000 postgraduate bursary UCC offers.


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    #26
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,799 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    freewilli88 wrote: »
    I got the same letter from this shower of halfwits! They were an absolute disaster to deal with in the first place, only being awarded a grant after months of back and forths and now they come at me with this internal audit nonsense!

    They cant in their right mind expect students, whose decision to pursue higher education courses depended on the awarding of the grant, to give it back! Its not only unfair its inhumane! Some I'm sure, like myself, are now on jobseekers looking for work after completing said course, so even if they chased up their pipe-dream, what can the realisticly expect to get out of it?

    On a side note, that point that they seem to often refer to where they state at least 3 years since previous education im nearly certain is new wording! I was extremely thorough in my application for grant and read through all of the fine print and clause nonsense and never came across this! Its so blatent that had it been there I would not have bothered applying in the first place! They have thrown that in since I applied I'm nearly certain, can anyone confirm that?

    No

    The 3 year rule has been there since about 2009 or 2010

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #27
    percy212
    Registered Users Posts: 1,077 ✭✭✭percy212


    Someone screwed up and is under pressure to recover funds in this disingenuous way. I would return the letters with no cover. If they step things up see a solicitor. Or a TD. Its not your problem. Its SUSI's.


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    #28
    Whig2014
    Registered Users Posts: 2 ✭Whig2014


    Hello!

    I got this letter too. I have to say I'm relieved to see I'm not the only one.
    I emailed SUSI after receiving the letter stating that I was not happy to be reassessed as I am not a dependent of my parents and have not been for a number of years and also because I gave my information accurately and honestly in my application for a grant so any responsibility for this 'error' lies with SUSI. Got the generic reply back which basically said the same as the letter.
    Does anyone remember if we had to input bank details as part of the grant application process? I tried to logon to my SUSI account but couldn't access a copy of my application.

    My inclination is to ignore their efforts to reassess me/'recoup' the money but if they have bank details I'm concerned that they are in a position to withdraw (limited) funds from me.

    Has anyone been able to find information on SUSI's statutory rights to claim this money back? I've tried to research it but finding it hard to come up with anything!


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    #29
    freewilli88
    Registered Users Posts: 22 ✭freewilli88


    mango salsa wrote: »
    No

    The 3 year rule has been there since about 2009 or 2010

    Im nearly certain that their wording has changed, 'break from studies' was not in the clauses before! if it was, then theres no way so many people would apply down that route, it would have been pointless! you can be sure that this thread represents a minute % of the people in our position. They are chancing their arm because they are a shambles!

    I vaguely remember the '3 year rule' (if that was the wording) being from the date/year of ENTRY to your first degree/3rd level course. There is something familiar about that interpretation which would explain how so many legitimate students/graduates face this approach from SUSI!

    Surely SUSI cannot feasibly follow up on this 'recoup' on all these grants! Sure it would cost them just as much in legal fees and then no one wins except the solicitors! seems like a dead end and another round of pointless, inefficient and incompetent communication from SUSI.

    Save the trees is what I say!


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    #30
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,799 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    freewilli88 wrote: »
    Im nearly certain that their wording has changed, 'break from studies' was not in the clauses before! if it was, then theres no way so many people would apply down that route, it would have been pointless! you can be sure that this thread represents a minute % of the people in our position. They are chancing their arm because they are a shambles!

    I vaguely remember the '3 year rule' (if that was the wording) being from the date/year of ENTRY to your first degree/3rd level course. There is something familiar about that interpretation which would explain how so many legitimate students/graduates face this approach from SUSI!

    Surely SUSI cannot feasibly follow up on this 'recoup' on all these grants! Sure it would cost them just as much in legal fees and then no one wins except the solicitors! seems like a dead end and another round of pointless, inefficient and incompetent communication from SUSI.

    Save the trees is what I say!

    The three year rule was there in 2010, 2011, 2012 and 2013. In 2009 from what I can see it was 1 year.


    2013 http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2013/en/si/0159.html
    2012 http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2012/en/si/0189.html
    2011 http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2011/en/si/0305.html
    2010 http://www.galway.ie/en/Services/Education/2010%20SCHEME.pdf
    2009 https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CC0QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dublincity.ie%2FRecreationandCulture%2FHigherEducationGrants%2FDocuments%2F2009%2520HEG%2520SCHEME%2520Final.doc&ei=ABfYUta9OMi57AbW2YCADA&usg=AFQjCNFWf7OVTDQf2LYu0mo7t5v6vIqLjg&sig2=vkzHBxgpRa9ZOli13ArP6A&bvm=bv.59568121,d.ZGU

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #31
    freewilli88
    Registered Users Posts: 22 ✭freewilli88


    mango salsa wrote: »
    The three year rule was there in 2010, 2011, 2012 and 2013. In 2009 from what I can see it was 1 year.


    2013 http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2013/en/si/0159.html
    2012 http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2012/en/si/0189.html
    2011 http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2011/en/si/0305.html
    2010 http://www.galway.ie/en/Services/Education/2010%20SCHEME.pdf
    2009 https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CC0QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dublincity.ie%2FRecreationandCulture%2FHigherEducationGrants%2FDocuments%2F2009%2520HEG%2520SCHEME%2520Final.doc&ei=ABfYUta9OMi57AbW2YCADA&usg=AFQjCNFWf7OVTDQf2LYu0mo7t5v6vIqLjg&sig2=vkzHBxgpRa9ZOli13ArP6A&bvm=bv.59568121,d.ZGU

    Interesting, and also thanks for the links.
    Would these have been uploaded and unchanged since 2011/2012?

    Its all well and good to have the info in this document but I would love to see the information they were putting in front of us during the application process, i.e on the website proper (and not in the encyclopedia of terms and conditions), document communication etc etc. I hope I can find any pdfs I may have saved during my application because its unlikely anyone would have that!

    In any case, they are chasing a lost cause! I wouldnt likely have the money to pay them back 2000 as Im still looking for work and theyl be hard pushed chasing me up for it as well! Theres people, possibly me included that may not have been in a financial position to complete a course without this grant, so to try and take it back is a disgrace! Is this nonsense happening to people who are still in college? that would be shameful!


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