Firebird heat exchanger v Genie

Murphj7

Hello all. I have a new semi detached house and want to install a heat exchanger. Im thinking firebird heat exchanger is what going with. Anyone got the system? Anyone got the Genie? How easy is it to unistall gas fire? Thanks

shane0007

Murphj7 wrote: »

Hello all. I have a new semi detached house and want to install a heat exchanger. Im thinking firebird heat exchanger is what going with. Anyone got the system? Anyone got the Genie? How easy is it to unistall gas fire? Thanks

Are you going to do the install yourself or get somebody to do it for you?
Who will be installing the gas fire?

Dtp1979

Murphj7 wrote: »

Hello all. I have a new semi detached house and want to install a heat exchanger. Im thinking firebird heat exchanger is what going with. Anyone got the system? Anyone got the Genie? How easy is it to unistall gas fire? Thanks

As for the gas fire.... It's easy for an RGI only. Shouldn't be a big job for an RGI

Murphj7

I ll be geting someone to do the install. Im getting rid of the gas fire and going solid stove. That is why Im asking firebird v genie

eddie.g

Any more on this I would be interested to see what people thought.


How does the fire bird heat exchanger work?

I have a solid fuel stove and oil heating.

SmallBalls

eddie.g wrote: »

How does the fire bird heat exchanger work?

Never used the Firebird but have used the Systemlink version.


http://www.systemlink.ie/products-59/heat-genie.html

Dtp1979

As far as I know the firebird one is the only one that complies with current building regulations

shane0007

Dtp1979 wrote: »

As far as I know the firebird one is the only one that complies with current building regulations

There is no real defined building regs currently for solid fuel. The new amended regs that are due out include defined legislation for solid fuel.
One particular part states a minimum heat dissipator of 20 litres on a gravity circuit. The only one that satisfies this is the Firebird, which is 24 litres. And of course a copper cylinder would satisfy it.

Restricted heat exchangers do not comply as the will not work on gravity.

eddie.g

I have oil heating and a solid fuel stove with a boiler. What is the best way of linking the two.

The heating is a pressurised system.

shane0007

eddie.g wrote: »

I have oil heating and a solid fuel stove with a boiler. What is the best way of linking the two.

The heating is a pressurised system.

How are they linked at the moment?

Aislingknndy

shane0007 wrote: »

How are they linked at the moment?

I have just had a firebird heat exchanger fitted but it's not working great.

I went for the firebird heat exchanger because the oil heating was pressurised and I was adding in a solid fuel stove with a back boiler.

I have gotten the heat exchanger fitted since but the way the plumber fitter it it's all open vented now.

There is two pipes coming up from the stove which is on the ground floor up to the heat exchanger which is in the hot press upstairs.there is a extra radiator taped off the lines before they reach the heat exchanger.
The two pipes are going into the left side of the heat exchanger. One is into the stove flow and the other is into the stove return.

At the right hand side of the heat exchanger the pipes are coming out of the stove flow which has the pump on it and then a non return valve and then goes thru the cylinder and on to the rads. The other pipe is coming out of the stove return and goes on to the rads.

The system flow and system return are blocked off at both sides of the heat exchanger.


Is this right because I'm not getting great heat out of the rads.

shane0007

It's piped wrong. Installer is expecting a gravity circuit to keep up with the demand of a pumped circuit. Do you now have 2 feed & expansion tanks in the attic as if both sides are open vented, the waters are not mixed in the heat exchanger!

I think I posted a diagram on another thread the correct way of piping the system, & if piped correctly it works.

Aislingknndy

shane0007 wrote: »

It's piped wrong. Installer is expecting a gravity circuit to keep up with the demand of a pumped circuit. Do you now have 2 feed & expansion tanks in the attic as if both sides are open vented, the waters are not mixed in the heat exchanger!

I think I posted a diagram on another thread the correct way of piping the system, & if piped correctly it works.

On the feed up from the stove it is also going up to the attic to the overflow.
And the return has a feed from the small tank in the attic

shane0007

Aislingknndy wrote: »

On the feed up from the stove it is also going up to the attic to the overflow.
And the return has a feed from the small tank in the attic

And how is the rads side dealt with?

Aislingknndy

shane0007 wrote: »

And how is the rads side dealt with?

After going teeing off to the cylinder it goes into the feed to the rads where it splits for upstairs and downstairs. I have a manual valve to switch on and off the downstairs rads and a electronic valve to switch on and off the upstairs rads.

shane0007

I meant about the feed & expansion. You said that both sides are open vented. The water do not mix in the heat exchanger so venting & expansion must be dealt with on both sides.

Also the solid fuel you describe seems to gravity only to the heat exchanger, thus only a creep circuit. On the rads is a pumped circuit, so the gravity side just will not keep up with demand asked of it & will end up pitching.

Aislingknndy

shane0007 wrote: »

I meant about the feed & expansion. You said that both sides are open vented. The water do not mix in the heat exchanger so venting & expansion must be dealt with on both sides.

Also the solid fuel you describe seems to gravity only to the heat exchanger, thus only a creep circuit. On the rads is a pumped circuit, so the gravity side just will not keep up with demand asked of it & will end up pitching.

Is the heat exchanger plumbed up right. There is nothing connected to the system flow or return on either side of the heat exchanger.

There is a flamco flexvent fitted where it joined into the cylinder and rads.and also on top of the heat exchanger on the front port

shane0007

It should have a pump on the gravity circuit & 2 pumps on the rad side.

Here's the diagram

https://us.v-cdn.net/6034073/uploads/attachments/528320/277225.pdf

esox28

shane0007 wrote: »

It should have a pump on the gravity circuit & 2 pumps on the rad side.

Here's the diagram

https://us.v-cdn.net/6034073/uploads/attachments/528320/277225.pdf

Is that a heat exchanger or buffer?

Aislingknndy

shane0007 wrote: »

It should have a pump on the gravity circuit & 2 pumps on the rad side.

Here's the diagram

https://us.v-cdn.net/6034073/uploads/attachments/528320/277225.pdf

There is one pump between the heat exchanger and the rads. And there is another one in the oil burner outside.

shane0007

esox28 wrote: »

Is that a heat exchanger or buffer?

Heat exchanger

shane0007

Aislingknndy wrote: »

There is one pump between the heat exchanger and the rads. And there is another one in the oil burner outside.

It needs to be piped as per posted diagram. Also make sure there is a circuit for the cylinder coil & rads if the heating side is zoned.

Aislingknndy

shane0007 wrote: »

It needs to be piped as per posted diagram. Also make sure there is a circuit for the cylinder coil & rads if the heating side is zoned.

I'm trying to figure it out here but I'm getting confused at the heat exchanger where the pipes go in and out. It shows the lines going in and out but which connections on the heat exchanger are used?

Aislingknndy

shane0007 wrote: »

It needs to be piped as per posted diagram. Also make sure there is a circuit for the cylinder coil & rads if the heating side is zoned.

Oh and by the way thanks for the diagram.

shane0007

Aislingknndy wrote: »

I'm trying to figure it out here but I'm getting confused at the heat exchanger where the pipes go in and out. It shows the lines going in and out but which connections on the heat exchanger are used?

The heat exchanger has two stove flows, two stove returns, two system flows & two system returns. You will only need to use one system flow, one system return, one stove flow but you will use two stove returns.
The first stove return is an unrestricted gravity circuit, whilst the second return will have the pumped circuit on the stove side. This is wired to a pipe stat on the stove flow which is wired also to a second pump on the system side. This means that when the stove flow reaches temperature, usually set to 55C, it will switch on the pump to pump heat from the stove to the heat exchanger. This also switches on the pump from the heat exchanger to the rads & cylinder.

At the moment, you have a stove that can only circualate heat on gravity so this is a creep circuit & will never keep up with the demand of the pump of the rad side, therefore luke warm rads & an overheating stove circuit!

Here's the diagram of the Firebird Heatexchanger.

eddie.g

Thanks Shane.

That's what I was trying to understand.

The way my system is fitted there is none of the system ports used. It is only using the stove ones.

shane0007

eddie.g wrote: »

Thanks Shane.

That's what I was trying to understand.

The way my system is fitted there is none of the system ports used. It is only using the stove ones.

Do you have the Firebird already installed?

eddie.g

shane0007 wrote: »

Do you have the Firebird already installed?

Yea it's fitted and all.

anthonyos

Take some pictures from different angles

shane0007

eddie.g wrote: »

Thanks Shane.

That's what I was trying to understand.

The way my system is fitted there is none of the system ports used. It is only using the stove ones.

If it's all taken from the stove side, I presume the whole thing is vented & if so, what's the point of the HE?

eddie.g

This is left hand side of the exchanger the feed and return from the stove are at this side.

eddie.g

And here is the right hand side with the pipes to the cylinder and rads

eddie.g

eddie.g wrote: »

This is left hand side of the exchanger the feed and return from the stove are at this side.

Sorry here is the picture

shane0007

It's wrong wrong wrong & serving no purpose whatsoever. An expensive unit that is doing nothing. The whole system is vented so why the heat exchanger?

It is a simple but very effective piece of technology that is really not difficult to understand so I would be asking your installer for answers because I cannot follow any reasonable explanation as why somebody in their right mind would waste money in installing it in the manner it is.

esox28

Get your plumber to change the connections on the rhs, use the system connections on the rhs of heat exhanger move the top pipe to the extreme top connection and the bottom to the extrram bottom and fit a pressuring kit, i.e. vessel, filler valve, safety valve and so on.

eddie.g

Thanks for the replys.

That's what I have been thinking the whole time.

I was always confused why none of the system ports were used.

SystemLink

Hi Guys,

I’m an engineer with SystemLink, the company which produces the Heat Genie. I came across this thread and noticed some incorrect information posted with regards to the Heat Genie and how it works. Hopefully I can clear up any misconceptions.

shane0007 wrote: »

There is no real defined building regs currently for solid fuel. The new amended regs that are due out include defined legislation for solid fuel.
One particular part states a minimum heat dissipator of 20 litres on a gravity circuit. The only one that satisfies this is the Firebird, which is 24 litres. And of course a copper cylinder would satisfy it.

Restricted heat exchangers do not comply as the will not work on gravity.

Firstly this statement is incorrect. Heated water will circulate on gravity (thermosiphon) through our Heat Genie, however we do specify some restrictions on how far away from the solid fuel appliance the Heat Genie can be placed. With constantly rising pipe work thermosiphoning will easily take place.

Regarding the minimum capacity of the heat dissipation unit the Heat Genie’s cooling circuit has the full capacity of the cold water storage tank(s) at its disposal for heat dissipation. This is more than likely at least 10 times the amount of water specified by Shane0007.

The Heat Genie has been fully tested and approved by HETAS in the UK. Standards for solid fuel installation in the UK are more defined and far more strict than in the Republic of Ireland. Furthermore, in the UK all installations must pass building inspection. This stands as testament to the Heat Genie's design and functionality.

Similarly, it is also worth noting that one of the biggest failures with installing a solid fuel appliance with a gravity circuit to a domestic hot water cylinder only, is that there is a good chance that the cylinder is already up to temperature (as the solid fuel appliance has been heating it constantly by gravity) by the time an overheat situation occurs, leaving the system to pitch as the only option as there’s no capacity left in the cylinder for heat dissipation from the stove. On the other hand, if a Heat Genie is used, it provides cooling only if it is required and at all other times heat can be directed exactly where it is needed.

shane0007 wrote: »

It's wrong wrong wrong & serving no purpose whatsoever. An expensive unit that is doing nothing. The whole system is vented so why the heat exchanger?

It is a simple but very effective piece of technology that is really not difficult to understand so I would be asking your installer for answers because I cannot follow any reasonable explanation as why somebody in their right mind would waste money in installing it in the manner it is.

Again this is not true. The Heat Genie has applications even if your heating system is open vented. For example, in a bungalow where the domestic hot water cylinder is too far away from the solid fuel appliance for a gravity circuit to operate, a Heat Genie could be used as it provides for a gravity circuit between it and the appliance, whilst also having a pumped circuit between it and the heating system.

The main points of the Heat Genie are as follows:
- No need to change cylinders to accommodate for heat leak on gravity, or for buffer tanks or heat leak radiators. This is due to the Heat Genie’s safety cooling circuit which will operate if the stove can no longer dissipate heat due to factors such as electrical power failure, or a pump failure.
- Heating system can be pressurised or open vented.
- Allows solid fuel appliances to be combined with systems involving heat pumps, underfloor heating, combi boilers, condensing gas boilers and a range of other heating system units which require pressurised systems.

Dtp1979

SystemLink wrote: »

Hi Guys,

I’m an engineer with SystemLink, the company which produces the Heat Genie. I came across this thread and noticed some incorrect information posted with regards to the Heat Genie and how it works. Hopefully I can clear up any misconceptions.



Firstly this statement is incorrect. Heated water will circulate on gravity (thermosiphon) through our Heat Genie, however we do specify some restrictions on how far away from the solid fuel appliance the Heat Genie can be placed. With constantly rising pipe work thermosiphoning will easily take place.

Regarding the minimum capacity of the heat dissipation unit the Heat Genie’s cooling circuit has the full capacity of the cold water storage tank(s) at its disposal for heat dissipation. This is more than likely at least 10 times the amount of water specified by Shane0007.

The Heat Genie has been fully tested and approved by HETAS in the UK. Standards for solid fuel installation in the UK are more defined and far more strict than in the Republic of Ireland. Furthermore, in the UK all installations must pass building inspection. This stands as testament to the Heat Genie's design and functionality.

Similarly, it is also worth noting that one of the biggest failures with installing a solid fuel appliance with a gravity circuit to a domestic hot water cylinder only, is that there is a good chance that the cylinder is already up to temperature (as the solid fuel appliance has been heating it constantly by gravity) by the time an overheat situation occurs, leaving the system to pitch as the only option as there’s no capacity left in the cylinder for heat dissipation from the stove. On the other hand, if a Heat Genie is used, it provides cooling only if it is required and at all other times heat can be directed exactly where it is needed.



Again this is not true. The Heat Genie has applications even if your heating system is open vented. For example, in a bungalow where the domestic hot water cylinder is too far away from the solid fuel appliance for a gravity circuit to operate, a Heat Genie could be used as it provides for a gravity circuit between it and the appliance, whilst also having a pumped circuit between it and the heating system.

The main points of the Heat Genie are as follows:
- No need to change cylinders to accommodate for heat leak on gravity, or for buffer tanks or heat leak radiators. This is due to the Heat Genie’s safety cooling circuit which will operate if the stove can no longer dissipate heat due to factors such as electrical power failure, or a pump failure.
- Heating system can be pressurised or open vented.
- Allows solid fuel appliances to be combined with systems involving heat pumps, underfloor heating, combi boilers, condensing gas boilers and a range of other heating system units which require pressurised systems.

Is the cooling circuit you speak of the one where mains water cools the heat exchanger?

SystemLink

Dtp1979 wrote: »

Is the cooling circuit you speak of the one where mains water cools the heat exchanger?

The cooling circuit I’ve referred to in the previous post should be fed from a reliable cold water supply. This could be from the cold water storage tank for instance, or alternatively mains water can be used if the mains supply is reliable in the event of electrical power failure.

Wearb

SystemLink wrote: »

Hi Guys,

I’m an engineer with SystemLink, the company which produces the Heat Genie. I came across this thread and noticed some incorrect information posted with regards to the Heat Genie and how it works. Hopefully I can clear up any misconceptions.



Firstly this statement is incorrect. Heated water will circulate on gravity (thermosiphon) through our Heat Genie, however we do specify some restrictions on how far away from the solid fuel appliance the Heat Genie can be placed. With constantly rising pipe work thermosiphoning will easily take place.

Regarding the minimum capacity of the heat dissipation unit the Heat Genie’s cooling circuit has the full capacity of the cold water storage tank(s) at its disposal for heat dissipation. This is more than likely at least 10 times the amount of water specified by Shane0007.

The Heat Genie has been fully tested and approved by HETAS in the UK. Standards for solid fuel installation in the UK are more defined and far more strict than in the Republic of Ireland. Furthermore, in the UK all installations must pass building inspection. This stands as testament to the Heat Genie's design and functionality.

Similarly, it is also worth noting that one of the biggest failures with installing a solid fuel appliance with a gravity circuit to a domestic hot water cylinder only, is that there is a good chance that the cylinder is already up to temperature (as the solid fuel appliance has been heating it constantly by gravity) by the time an overheat situation occurs, leaving the system to pitch as the only option as there’s no capacity left in the cylinder for heat dissipation from the stove. On the other hand, if a Heat Genie is used, it provides cooling only if it is required and at all other times heat can be directed exactly where it is needed.



Again this is not true. The Heat Genie has applications even if your heating system is open vented. For example, in a bungalow where the domestic hot water cylinder is too far away from the solid fuel appliance for a gravity circuit to operate, a Heat Genie could be used as it provides for a gravity circuit between it and the appliance, whilst also having a pumped circuit between it and the heating system.

The main points of the Heat Genie are as follows:
- No need to change cylinders to accommodate for heat leak on gravity, or for buffer tanks or heat leak radiators. This is due to the Heat Genie’s safety cooling circuit which will operate if the stove can no longer dissipate heat due to factors such as electrical power failure, or a pump failure.
- Heating system can be pressurised or open vented.
- Allows solid fuel appliances to be combined with systems involving heat pumps, underfloor heating, combi boilers, condensing gas boilers and a range of other heating system units which require pressurised systems.

Thanks for coming on here to explain your system. The information will be very useful to installers and other interested parties.

Dtp1979

SystemLink wrote: »

The cooling circuit I’ve referred to in the previous post should be fed from a reliable cold water supply. This could be from the cold water storage tank for instance, or alternatively mains water can be used if the mains supply is reliable in the event of electrical power failure.

Do these require a minimum supply pressure?

shane 007

SystemLink wrote: »

Hi Guys,

I’m an engineer with SystemLink, the company which produces the Heat Genie. I came across this thread and noticed some incorrect information posted with regards to the Heat Genie and how it works. Hopefully I can clear up any misconceptions.



Firstly this statement is incorrect. Heated water will circulate on gravity (thermosiphon) through our Heat Genie, however we do specify some restrictions on how far away from the solid fuel appliance the Heat Genie can be placed. With constantly rising pipe work thermosiphoning will easily take place.

Regarding the minimum capacity of the heat dissipation unit the Heat Genie’s cooling circuit has the full capacity of the cold water storage tank(s) at its disposal for heat dissipation. This is more than likely at least 10 times the amount of water specified by Shane0007.

The Heat Genie has been fully tested and approved by HETAS in the UK. Standards for solid fuel installation in the UK are more defined and far more strict than in the Republic of Ireland. Furthermore, in the UK all installations must pass building inspection. This stands as testament to the Heat Genie's design and functionality.

Similarly, it is also worth noting that one of the biggest failures with installing a solid fuel appliance with a gravity circuit to a domestic hot water cylinder only, is that there is a good chance that the cylinder is already up to temperature (as the solid fuel appliance has been heating it constantly by gravity) by the time an overheat situation occurs, leaving the system to pitch as the only option as there’s no capacity left in the cylinder for heat dissipation from the stove. On the other hand, if a Heat Genie is used, it provides cooling only if it is required and at all other times heat can be directed exactly where it is needed.



Again this is not true. The Heat Genie has applications even if your heating system is open vented. For example, in a bungalow where the domestic hot water cylinder is too far away from the solid fuel appliance for a gravity circuit to operate, a Heat Genie could be used as it provides for a gravity circuit between it and the appliance, whilst also having a pumped circuit between it and the heating system.

The main points of the Heat Genie are as follows:
- No need to change cylinders to accommodate for heat leak on gravity, or for buffer tanks or heat leak radiators. This is due to the Heat Genie’s safety cooling circuit which will operate if the stove can no longer dissipate heat due to factors such as electrical power failure, or a pump failure.
- Heating system can be pressurised or open vented.
- Allows solid fuel appliances to be combined with systems involving heat pumps, underfloor heating, combi boilers, condensing gas boilers and a range of other heating system units which require pressurised systems.

First off, you have replied to a closed account who cannot reply to you.

To your points, as per your installation manual you call your circuit between the stove & the Genie a gravity circuit. Apologies, but my understanding of a gravity circuit is both rising continuously, 1" unrestricted pipework, yet I see from your drawings you have a circulating pump on this circuit. As you know, gravity circuits are creep circuits & any restriction is a restriction, even a bend is a restriction & should be limited to A well designed gravity circuit does not have a circulating pump on this circuit as it offers too much resistance for the gravity creep to occur.
Secondly, you have the flow entering the genie below the return of the gravity circuit. Perhaps you could explain the inner workings of the genie, in that cooling water becomes cooler & therefore less dense, ultimately falling & not rising, so how does it rise to the return?
Many installations in Ireland are in bungalows that will rise into the attic where I presume the Genie would be located & then dropping from the Genie to the cylinder in the hot press. What effect will that have in a fail safe situation?

Finally, you say that the cooling system can be a reliable mains water supply. Can I ask you do you think that is a reliable source in Ireland? I know that many houses, in very large quantities, had frozen mains water a couple of years back. My own mum had no water for 3 weeks as the council supply was frozen. What would happen in that scenario, if there was a power cut in that time period when the mains was not there? I also know of homes where the cold water supply in the attics were frozen solid.

I do understand that in countries where mains water has been installed in a reliable manner consistently, it is reasonable to rely upon it. However, if Ireland IMO, it is not. If you say it can installed to mains, if the mains is in a handy location, the installer will use it.

In relation to solid fuel regs, I was informed by another engineer that the heat disapating unit, i.e. the genie or similar, must be a minimum quantity of 20 litres. This must be on the unrestricted gravity circuit. Is this not true?

SystemLink

Dtp1979 wrote: »

Do these require a minimum supply pressure?

It’s easier to talk about the flow rate required. The cooling water supply should be of sufficient flow rate to absorb heat from the stove as efficiently as possible. If the flow rate is too low through the cooling circuit you may find that you are not bleeding away enough heat. If it is too high the heat will be absorbed from the stove but you may use more water than is necessary. A flow regulating valve can be installed to control the flow rate. The adjuster can be removed to prevent tampering. When using a storage tank for the cold water supply we recommend a minimum of 1m head (equates to 0.1bar) between the bottom of the tank and the highest point in the cooling circuit pipework to ensure a suitable minimum flow rate.

SystemLink

shane 007 wrote: »

First off, you have replied to a closed account who cannot reply to you.

Hi Shane007. We’d be happy to answer your queries below.

shane 007 wrote: »

To your points, as per your installation manual you call your circuit between the stove & the Genie a gravity circuit. Apologies, but my understanding of a gravity circuit is both rising continuously, 1" unrestricted pipework, yet I see from your drawings you have a circulating pump on this circuit. As you know, gravity circuits are creep circuits & any restriction is a restriction, even a bend is a restriction & should be limited to A well designed gravity circuit does not have a circulating pump on this circuit as it offers too much resistance for the gravity creep to occur.

Unfortunately in this case you are throwing out a statement as if it is fact! Although the pump offers resistance just like anything else on the circuit it is definitely not too much for gravity circulation to occur. Remember we have limitations on horizontal distance (over a traditional gravity circuit) to counteract any increase in restriction. That way we get a sufficient flow rate to cool the stove, which in the end is all that is required when in cooling mode. This has been tested and approved and there are more than 1000 installed and working.

shane 007 wrote: »

Secondly, you have the flow entering the genie below the return of the gravity circuit. Perhaps you could explain the inner workings of the genie, in that cooling water becomes cooler & therefore less dense, ultimately falling & not rising, so how does it rise to the return?

Without going into too much detail on the inner workings of our product, ultimately the rising hot water into the bottom connection pushes water down into the cooling heat exchanger where it is cooled and then it wants to drop back down towards the stove. This is similar to what happens with a cylinder coil, except the Heat Genie is a more compact package and has a dynamic cooling water flow. By the way you are welcome to come to our premises if you would like to have a closer look at how the system operates.

shane 007 wrote: »

Many installations in Ireland are in bungalows that will rise into the attic where I presume the Genie would be located & then dropping from the Genie to the cylinder in the hot press. What effect will that have in a fail safe situation?

I think you may be a little confused with regard to the connection between the Heat Genie and the domestic hot water cylinder. There is no gravity flow between them so it will have no effect. In a fail safe situation, if cooling is required the Heat Genie exclusively provides this. All zones are pumped in normal operating conditions including the DHW cylinder.

shane 007 wrote: »

Finally, you say that the cooling system can be a reliable mains water supply. Can I ask you do you think that is a reliable source in Ireland? I know that many houses, in very large quantities, had frozen mains water a couple of years back. My own mum had no water for 3 weeks as the council supply was frozen. What would happen in that scenario, if there was a power cut in that time period when the mains was not there? I also know of homes where the cold water supply in the attics were frozen solid.
I do understand that in countries where mains water has been installed in a reliable manner consistently, it is reasonable to rely upon it. However, if Ireland IMO, it is not. If you say it can installed to mains, if the mains is in a handy location, the installer will use it.

Yes we agree. If you read the Heat Genie manual or our earlier post above, you will see that it states that the cooling circuit cold water supply must be from a reliable cold water source. You may view that the cold water storage tank is most reliable as a frozen main will not affect it.

shane 007 wrote: »

In relation to solid fuel regs, I was informed by another engineer that the heat disapating unit, i.e. the genie or similar, must be a minimum quantity of 20 litres. This must be on the unrestricted gravity circuit. Is this not true?

There are certainly no standards or guidelines existing at the moment (that I know of) that state such a requirement and I’m not aware of anything upcoming. Perhaps you could post a link? The National Standards Authority of Ireland have produced a document called “Code of practice for building services – Part 1: Domestic plumbing & heating”. This is the most prominent publication on the subject in this country and contains a lot of other useful information besides. See from page 110 onwards. I’ve included a link to the draft version below but remember it is a draft version so is subject to corrections and changes.
http://www.nsai.ie/NSAI/files/d5/d51696f5-28ad-4a09-8344-fc47f154e267.pdf
As I said above the Heat Genie far surpasses this anyway by having the whole of the cold water storage tank at ambient temperature at its disposal for cooling (this is probably more than 200 litres). This is far superior to some other existing methods which gravity feed to a DHW cylinder or small tank only, because more than likely when it is called into action this tank or cylinder is going to be already fully up to temperature. You mention another product in one of your posts which falls into this category. Apart from that there is the inherent danger of scalding when gravity feeding to a cylinder alone.
The Heat Genie has been independently verified and approved by HETAS and as far as we know is the only Irish solid fuel link-up product to be HETAS approved.

I hope this helps to answer some of your questions.

shane 007

SystemLink wrote: »

I hope this helps to answer some of your questions.

Yes and thank you for such an indepth reply. It also raises more. I suppose it is down to how manufacturers can make their products easy to install so installers buy them & how certain installation criteria is met in the real world. It is a very difficult line to draw for many manufacturers as too many restrictions leads to poor sales & too little restrictions leads to dangerous installs.

I suppose my concerns are the fail safes when the what if's occur and over-complications sometimes leads to confusion and mistakes.

SystemLink wrote: »

By the way you are welcome to come to our premises if you would like to have a closer look at how the system operates.

Thank very much for this offer & I will gladly accept. Any training & knowledge is very much welcome. Feel free to PM me to arrange something.

shane 007

SystemLink wrote: »

There are certainly no standards or guidelines existing at the moment (that I know of) that state such a requirement and I’m not aware of anything upcoming. Perhaps you could post a link? The National Standards Authority of Ireland have produced a document called “Code of practice for building services – Part 1: Domestic plumbing & heating”. This is the most prominent publication on the subject in this country and contains a lot of other useful information besides. See from page 110 onwards. I’ve included a link to the draft version below but remember it is a draft version so is subject to corrections and changes.
http://www.nsai.ie/NSAI/files/d5/d51696f5-28ad-4a09-8344-fc47f154e267.pdf

Funny enough, just in the door & Heatmerchants have sent out an invitation for a Firebird evening. One of the topics mentioned that they will be explaining is the "Changes to be introduced to Part J in September 2014 - including solid fuel and flues".

spireland32

Yes it was covered at the recent firebird aphci meeting. You'll throughly enjoy it Shane, great staff and all the new regs are discussed. There are new regs which system link must adhere to now.

SystemLink

spireland32 wrote: »

Yes it was covered at the recent firebird aphci meeting. You'll throughly enjoy it Shane, great staff and all the new regs are discussed. There are new regs which system link must adhere to now.

Hi……not sure what you are implying by this statement but Systemlink and its products have always been fully compliant with any regs or standards available including the new 2014 Part J which has just been published and can be found here

http://www.environ.ie/en/Publications/DevelopmentandHousing/BuildingStandards/FileDownLoad,37240,en.pdf

shane 007

I went to the Firebird meeting & it was very good & informative.
The draft Part J document was not placed into the public domain for consultation but just given to manufacturers. A bit disappointing.
There was mention of the minimum 20 litres of volume for dissipation at the meeting but there is absolutely no mention of that in this draft. So it would be nice to receive some clear & precise clarification on this.
I am not any one side and I dislike dissing of any company or their products. If I see an issue I highlight it until somebody takes time to show me otherwise.
So a big thank you to SystemLink for providing this.
It seems to be pretty much a copy of the UK's 2013 Part J.

Biggest changes seems to be flues, terminals, ventilation & hearth data plates.

Along with the changes in Building Control March 2014, HSA regulations on homeowner's responsibility to appoint a Project Supervisor if applicable and further amendments/overhauling of the building regulations, installers, engineers & designers will have to get to know these regs & systems a lot better then they currently do.

Confusing times ahead, me thinks....

SystemLink

shane 007 wrote: »

I went to the Firebird meeting & it was very good & informative.
The draft Part J document was not placed into the public domain for consultation but just given to manufacturers. A bit disappointing.
There was mention of the minimum 20 litres of volume for dissipation at the meeting but there is absolutely no mention of that in this draft. So it would be nice to receive some clear & precise clarification on this.
I am not any one side and I dislike dissing of any company or their products. If I see an issue I highlight it until somebody takes time to show me otherwise.
So a big thank you to SystemLink for providing this.
It seems to be pretty much a copy of the UK's 2013 Part J.

Biggest changes seems to be flues, terminals, ventilation & hearth data plates.

Along with the changes in Building Control March 2014, HSA regulations on homeowner's responsibility to appoint a Project Supervisor if applicable and further amendments/overhauling of the building regulations, installers, engineers & designers will have to get to know these regs & systems a lot better then they currently do.

Confusing times ahead, me thinks....

Hi Shane,
That link to Part J is not a draft version. It is the final published version. I spoke to the Dept. of the Environment and they emailed us that last Friday. It went to the minister for signing on the previous week. The Statutory Instrument to go with it is also on the Dept. website but obviously the Technical Guidance document is easier to digest. It’s interesting that Firebird are still talking of some 20 litre volume requirement and yet there is no evidence to support its existence……..

shane 007

SystemLink wrote: »

Hi Shane,
That link to Part J is not a draft version. It is the final published version. I spoke to the Dept. of the Environment and they emailed us that last Friday. It went to the minister for signing on the previous week. The Statutory Instrument to go with it is also on the Dept. website but obviously the Technical Guidance document is easier to digest. It’s interesting that Firebird are still talking of some 20 litre volume requirement and yet there is no evidence to support its existence……..

When I opened the document with my iPad, the word "Draft" appeared on top.
I do not know why they would say this if it is not true, but it does seem there is indeed no evidence to support this.
Hopefeully we can arrange a visit to yourselves in the not so distant future and go through your system(s) in detail. Very much looking forward to it.