Clutch went on car and when Mechanic restarted piston blew inside Engine. Help

TheBeach

HI All

Firstly, totally clueless about cars, so any help would be much appreciated. We just left our car, Skeoda 2004, into garage to get fixed and were told the clutch was gone and given price for replacement and labour as 330 (that's all fine), but after the job was done the Mechanic drove the car out of the garage and it conked out. So when we went to collect it the Mechanic just told us the engines gone.
Can this happen? It just seems really odd. We left the car into garage on Monday and went to collect it today only to be greeted by this news. My husband thinks that an inexperienced person was working on the car and wrecked it.
Any thoughts?

Voodoomelon

What exactly did he say was wrong with the engine and what did he say was required to get it running again?

TheBeach

He said the valve exploded inside the engine (sorry that's what we think he said - totally clueless). And we need a new engine completely.

TheBeach

Sorry i meant to say ' a valve exploded inside the piston'. (husband thinks that's what he said).

lomb

Sounds like the cambelt broke. This rubber belt drives the valve train on the top of the engine and allows the valves to open and close in an ordered sequence. It is connected to the bottom output of the engine . If the belt brakes then the valves no longer get out of the way of the piston as it goes up and they make contact obviously with bad results.
The belt can brake anytime especially if it hasn't been changed at the recommended interval. Its obviously unusual or unlucky for it to happen while a nearby part is being worked on. The gearbox and drive shafts have to come off the engine to access the clutch.

Edit:/ I don't think the timing belt section is interfered with to get the gearbox and drive shafts off as its on the other side of the gearbox afaik.

TheBeach

Thanks a lot. appreciate your help.

TheBeach

We had the chainbelt changed 2 years ago, so maybe it was due to be changed again?

SleeperService

TheBeach wrote: »

We had the chainbelt changed 2 years ago, so maybe it was due to be changed again?

Its a chain OR a belt usually, although I dont know how long skoda kept a pushrod engine.
Tell us what car model, what size engine, diesel or petrol. It does sound like something failed in the timing side things (belt, tensioner)

TheBeach

It's a chain.
skeoda fabia 1.2. petrol.
thanks.

lomb

TheBeach wrote: »

We had the chainbelt changed 2 years ago, so maybe it was due to be changed again?

No, its usually 5 -6 years or 60000- 120000 miles these days. Chains are usually for the life of the engine as they are metal.
Saying that the tensioner that tensions the belt or chain can fail or one of the parts on the chain or belt can sieze making it break. Ie the waterpump is also driven by this belt and If it wont turn then the belt will break in a few seconds.
How many miles on the engine and what year is it? See my edited post above.

crosshair1

It's most likely that the engine was turned backwards while fitting the clutch.
This can cause the timing chain to slip and do the damage described when started

TheBeach

Hi the car is 2004 and has 82,000 miles on it

TheBeach

crosshair1 wrote: »

It's most likely that the engine was turned backwards while fitting the clutch.
This can cause the timing chain to slip and do the damage described when started

Hi Crosshair, do you mean that they may have made a mistake then?

Toyotafanboi

those cars/ engines are known for a bit of chain trouble i believe. i highly doubt it's related to the clutch job.

Saucy McKetchup

TheBeach wrote: »

Hi Crosshair, do you mean that they may have made a mistake then?

They more than likely did make a mistake, go to a solicitor

crosshair1

Yes it looks that way.
Perhaps the person carrying out the work was unaware of this problem occurring , but it is considered a no-no to rotate the engine backwards when tightening the pressure plate bolts.

lomb

Saucy McKetchup wrote: »

They more than likely did make a mistake, go to a solicitor

Or ask them to make it right first. What you need is a mechanic who knows this particular engine for a fact to state how this section could get damaged.

lomb

crosshair1 wrote: »

Yes it looks that way.
Perhaps the person carrying out the work was unaware of this problem occurring , but it is considered a no-no to rotate the engine backwards when tightening the pressure plate bolts.

Why would reverse turning the crankshaft damage the timing. Is there a one way component somewhere?

Saucy McKetchup

lomb wrote: »

Or ask them to make it right first. What you need is a mechanic who knows this particular engine for a fact to state how this section could get damaged.

Obviously ask the garage to rectify the problem but to me it looks like the garage is making excuses already, and it's easy to fob off someone who knows nothing about cars

dieselbug

It's advised not to even park these on a hill in gear in case they move back, engine will turn backwards and timing can slip.

TheBeach

Have no intentions of going to a Solicitor.
Just want to have some facts before we go back tomorrow to chat to the Garage Owner, who wasn't available today or when the work was being carried out.

Renegade Mechanic

Its possible the engine may have "dropped a valve". The clips (collets) holding a valve to a spring via a washer may fail or the washer itself may split, allowing the valve to fall into the combustion chamber. These valves are around 12cm or so in length. But the distance from the top of the piston to the ceiling of the chamber at the end of the compression stroke is usually well less than 1cm! So as you may imagine, serious and often irreparable engine damage results. I sold an engine at a reduced price to a fellow mechanic (friend too) as a customers car he was working on at home was just ticking over after a service while he filled out paperwork before suddenly stopping. Even at tickover speed it cracked the piston and gouged the head beyond use. Unfortunately he simply could not placate his customer so had to either replace the engine free of charge or go to court. I guess the moral here is that its extremely rare, every bit as unfortunate but still possible. Hope ye get fixed up, op.

Saucy McKetchup

TheBeach wrote: »

Have no intentions of going to a Solicitor.
Just want to have some facts before we go back tomorrow to chat to the Garage Owner, who wasn't available today or when the work was being carried out.

What will you do if the garage absolve themselves of blame?

TheBeach

Thanks everyone very helpful.

lomb

Renegade Mechanic wrote: »

Its possible the engine may have "dropped a valve". The clips (collets) holding a valve to a spring via a washer may fail or the washer itself may split, allowing the valve to fall into the combustion chamber. These valves are around 12cm or so in length. But the distance from the top of the piston to the ceiling of the chamber at the end of the compression stroke is usually well less than 1cm! So as you may imagine, serious and often irreparable engine damage results. I sold an engine at a reduced price to a fellow mechanic (friend too) as a customers car he was working on at home was just ticking over after a service while he filled out paperwork before suddenly stopping. Even at tickover speed it cracked the piston and gouged the head beyond use. Unfortunately he simply could not placate his customer so had to either replace the engine free of charge or go to court. I guess the moral here is that its extremely rare, every bit as unfortunate but still possible. Hope ye get fixed up, op.

What are the odds of that happening though in the few minutes the mechanics are working on it with the engine running and not being the mechanics fault? Must be a million to one.
Courts are reasonable and would side with the consumer. Any good business even if not their fault would placate the customer as the odds are very long and a reasonable person would assume the business was at fault. Im not sure what I would do. If I trusted the mechanic to be competent I wouldn't blame them but then again I don't trust too many. Theres some very good mechanics who post on boards.

TheBeach

Saucy McKetchup wrote: »

What will you do if the garage absolve themselves of blame?

Cross that bridge when we come to it. Probably get a breakdown of how and who the work was carried out by in writing and get an Independent Mechanic to look at it and assess what exactly happened and look at the situation again then.

lomb

Perhaps print this thread out ?

TheBeach

Will do lomb.

SleeperService

dieselbug wrote: »

It's advised not to even park these on a hill in gear in case they move back, engine will turn backwards and timing can slip.

Are there any other engines with the same recommendation? (would using reverse rather than first avoid that problem, facing up a hill)

dieselbug

My advice for what it's worth as far as court and solicitors is concerned, would be to avoid this route if at all possible.

If it's felt that the garage has some liability then try to come to some agreement.

It would be quiet easy to spend the price of a good car going down the legal route imo.

dieselbug

SleeperService wrote: »

Are there any other engines with the same recommendation? (would using reverse rather than first avoid that problem, facing up a hill)

In theory, yes as the engine would then be turning in the correct direction.

In general, it's bad practice to turn any engine backwards.

Kristopherus

Saucy McKetchup wrote: »

What will you do if the garage absolve themselves of blame?

Thats something they're likely to do if its an expensive job. Garages are ultra defensive in cases like this & are not afraid to make the customer feel inferior, unfortunately.

lomb

dieselbug wrote: »

My advice for what it's worth as far as court and solicitors is concerned, would be to avoid this route if at all possible.

If it's felt that the garage has some liability then try to come to some agreement.

It would be quiet easy to spend the price of a good car going down the legal route imo.

Theres small claims though.

Renegade Mechanic

lomb wrote: »

What are the odds of that happening though in the few minutes the mechanics are working on it with the engine running and not being the mechanics fault? Must be a million to one.
Courts are reasonable and would side with the consumer. Any good business even if not their fault would placate the customer as the odds are very long and a reasonable person would assume the business was at fault. Im not sure what I would do. If I trusted the mechanic to be competent I wouldn't blame them but then again I don't trust too many. Theres some very good mechanics who post on boards.

Problem with the auto industry is that it's way waaay too easy to screw people to the wall, then screw them through it if they choose to do so. Is has to be among the least trusted trades and to be honest, thats why. Now, I knew this particular man. And a joyrider He absolutely wasnt. But thats completely irrelevant. It just wasnt his day and rather than just spend the money in court anyway, he undertook the repair for free instead, spending the money on the engine and a timimg belt kit, etc. The odds of an engine dropping a valve are surprising. Ive seen three (valve bust, belt intact) and Im not exactly seasoned! But thr odds of one dropping a valve while under a mechanics care are indeed so astronomical that anyone would be dead right to assume it was his fault. The sad question is indeed "how could they not?" No one could.

Bof No1

Hi there, I had a self employed business repairing leisure vehicles and in several instances, these vehicles were damaged while in my possession, mostly not my fault. As a result, I had to repair them at my expense, or in one instance, claim on my trade insurance. Your car was driven into the garage for a clutch repair, other people here have stated that a "blown" engine could not result from the work you were having done. The mechanic took it for a test drive and it was damaged while he was doing so. Your car was in the possession of the garage and being tested when this happened. This problem is not of your making, the garage is responsible. Don't accept anything less than the return of your car in a working condition, a loan car while this is being done and a warranty for all the repair work carried out.

Renegade Mechanic

Bof No1 wrote: »

Hi there, I had a self employed business repairing leisure vehicles and in several instances, these vehicles were damaged while in my possession, mostly not my fault. As a result, I had to repair them at my expense, or in one instance, claim on my trade insurance. Your car was driven into the garage for a clutch repair, other people here have stated that a "blown" engine could not result from the work you were having done. The mechanic took it for a test drive and it was damaged while he was doing so. Your car was in the possession of the garage and being tested when this happened. This problem is not of your making, the garage is responsible. Don't accept anything less than the return of your car in a working condition, a loan car while this is being done and a warranty for all the repair work carried out.

Exactly. Though doing a clutch simply cannot damage an engine, the garage were in possession at the time. So is it a case then that they have to fix it, not because they caused it to blow (which they likely didnt), but just because its the law?

Bof No1

When it happened the first time, I contacted a solicitor. His advice was that I could certainly fight it in court, but he wouldn't advise it. The reasons for that were as I've stated in my last post. He didn't say I was right or wrong or what the exact position was with regard to the law, but that it would be in my best interests to carry out the repair and that I also had a moral obligation to do so. If I went to court, the Judge would take this into account in his interpretation of the law and probably rule in favour of the claimant.

rex-x

Rotating the engine backwards a bit will not damage it or cause the timing to go haywire, there is no one way parts fitted to this engines timing gear.
From my years working on cars sadly coincidences happen all the time, especially in Ireland where car maintenance is a grudge buy and many cars are not properly taken care of.
I cant see what they could have done changing a clutch to cause this to happen but noone can say for sure I suppose without seeing the car and knowing what happened exactly.

whippet

This engine .. VAG 1.2 from that era is know for issues with the timing chain ... Or tensioner to be precise. I had a Seat variant and at 45k miles the tensioner failed just as I was about to drive off and I was lucky that no damage occurred.

Later versions of that engine has a different tensioner

I wouldn't be too quick to be blaming a mechanic just yet.

burke027

rex-x wrote: »

Rotating the engine backwards a bit will not damage it or cause the timing to go haywire, there is no one way parts fitted to this engines timing gear.
From my years working on cars sadly coincidences happen all the time, especially in Ireland where car maintenance is a grudge buy and many cars are not properly taken care of.
I cant see what they could have done changing a clutch to cause this to happen but noone can say for sure I suppose without seeing the car and knowing what happened exactly.

I second this I've 13 years of working on cars with both belts and chains and I have never seen this happen either. It's most likely a coincidence fitting the flywheel or clutch will have no effect of the chain or belt. Even replacing the clutch won't effect this and ur going to find it hard to prove otherwise if I'm honest.
Now if it's any garage worth it's sauce I'm sure they will help u out in some of the way with labour or something but the wouldn't be obligated to do so.

Saucy McKetchup

It happened whilst the car was under the care of the garage therefore the garage is responsible

whippet

Saucy McKetchup wrote: »

It happened whilst the car was under the care of the garage therefore the garage is responsible

source?

dieselbug

These engines are well known for timing chain and valve problems, i'm presuming it's AZQ or BME code 12v.

As someone else said the chain kit was modified on later models. Not uncommon for the chain to slip after an oil and filter change. Engine light on and fault code flagged for MAP.

There was also a software update which increased the idle speed to help prevent sticking valves and misfires.

Bottom line is they're a troublesome engine.

whippet

dieselbug wrote: »

Bottom line is they're a troublesome engine.

yep ... on 70k miles (over 8 years) my wife's 1.2l had the tensioner issue (lucky not to cause engine damage), cat convertor died and then what finished it was the Oil Pump failed and to change that would have been an engine out job and the cost for labour etc .. i decided that pouring more money in to the car wasn't worth it and got rid.

burke027

I wouldn't go down that route of it was under there care. As I said they will more then likely help you out in some way but if u go down the route of blaming them they will have every right to walk away from it.

At the end of the day as has being pointed out there a troublesome engine and maybe it didn't have the mods or updates done and in that case it was always gona happen only a matter of time as to when.

So if u drop ur car in to the garage to get tyres fitted and all of a sudden the engine blows is it the tyre centres fault no it's not if it was gona happen it would happen at n e time.

Renegade Mechanic

12v...... The 3 cylinder ones? Ive had to break awful news to a few owners who sent their car in for a misfire..... Only to be told after some testing the misfire is actually low compression caused by the exhaust valve on the last cylinder has literally burned away... Ive rebuilt two but the cat always goes a few months after!

beam99

like burke027 said, if you have a lend of a friends car or similar and your driving it and the engine blows, are you at fault??? NO, so i would not be jumping the gun and saying the garage is at fault,
What is the service history on the car? etc was it maintained correctly eg oil changed, regular
My advice, get a independent engineer's report done on the car.

Bof No1

Beam99, I certainly wouldn't be lending you my car, with friends like you etc!

JohnBoy26

Bof No1 wrote: »

Beam99, I certainly wouldn't be lending you my car, with friends like you etc!

If your car's engine goes bang( due to a fault with engine itself) while in your friends possession is it their fault? I wouldn't think so myself.

beauf

dieselbug wrote: »

... Not uncommon for the chain to slip after an oil and filter change. ...

Why?

tobothehobo

beauf wrote: »

Why?

As far as I know the tensioner Is hydrolic and when the engine oil is drained the tensioner can lose tension so when the filter is changed and fresh oil put in when you turn it over it slips timing and causes a piston to impact a valve.