88 year old Nazi soldier charged over 1944 massacre.

Balaclava1991

An 88 year old veteran of the Waffen SS who was 19 years old at the time has been charged with crimes relating to the infamous massacre at Oradour-sur-Glane on June 10, 1944.

German prosecutors brought the charges against the suspect, known only as Werner C, for his alleged role in the slaughter of almost the entire population of the French village of Oradour-sur-Glane on June 10, 1944.

The prosecutor's office in Dortmund said it was charging him over the murder of 25 people, committed by a group, and with aiding and abetting the killing of hundreds more.

The Oradour massacre killed 642 people, including 205 children, in reprisals for the supposed kidnapping of a German officer by the French resistance.

After the war, Charles de Gaulle ordered the village to remain untouched and uninhabited as a memorial to Nazi cruelty and its victims.

http://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/former-nazi-soldier-88-charged-over-massacre-in-1944-29900933.html

Some more background on the massacre:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oradour-sur-Glane

The soldier would probably have been a member of SS-Sturmbannführer Adolf Diekmann's I. Battalion, 4th SS Panzer Grenadier Regiment.

Many of these men including Diekmann himself were soon killed fighting Allied forces in Normandy.

boomchicawawa

The culprits were actually from the 2nd WSS 'Das Reich' who travelled up from the south of France to Normandy and as you say were mostly killed in 44. Diekmann is actually buried in La Cambe German cemetery in Normandy, that was one grave I didn't want to visit while there last summer.

I have been to Oradour as it stands today, left untouched as a monument to Nazi brutality. The opening credits from 'The world at war' feature the ruins of the town.

I sometimes wonder about putting these old men on trial but I suppose its a lesson to all that the long arm of the law can stretch over many decades and I'm sure the families of the dead are still interested in getting some justice for what happened, although I'm sure it will be the same old defence of 'following orders'.

Balaclava1991

boomchicawawa wrote: »

The culprits were actually from the 2nd WSS 'Das Reich' who travelled up from the south of France to Normandy and as you say were mostly killed in 44. Diekmann is actually buried in La Cambe German cemetery in Normandy, that was one grave I didn't want to visit while there last summer.

I have been to Oradour as it stands today, left untouched as a monument to Nazi brutality. The opening credits from 'The world at war' feature the ruins of the town.

I sometimes wonder about putting these old men on trial but I suppose its a lesson to all that the long arm of the law can stretch over many decades and I'm sure the families of the dead are still interested in getting some justice for what happened, although I'm sure it will be the same old defence of 'following orders'.

2nd SS Panzer Division Das Reich was organized thus in 1944-1945:

2nd SS Panzer Regiment
3rd SS Panzer Grenadier Regiment Deutschland
4th SS Panzer Grenadier Regiment Der Führer
2nd SS Panzer Artillery Regiment
2nd SS Motorcycle Battalion
2nd SS Sturmgeschütz Battalion
2nd SS Reconnaissance Battalion
2nd SS Panzerjager Battalion
2nd SS Flak Battalion
2nd SS Pionier Battalion
2nd SS Signal Battalion
2nd SS Rocket Launcher Battalion
2nd SS Supply Battalion
2nd SS Maintenance Battalion
2nd SS Medical Battalion

Anyway I digress.

Hell is not hot enough for what those Nazi bastards did.

BlaasForRafa

boomchicawawa wrote: »

I sometimes wonder about putting these old men on trial but I suppose its a lesson to all that the long arm of the law can stretch over many decades and I'm sure the families of the dead are still interested in getting some justice for what happened, although I'm sure it will be the same old defence of 'following orders'.

Oradour was a terrible crime but if this man is going on trial then pretty much any survivor of bomber command should go on trial for similar crimes.

boomchicawawa

fort

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Oradour was a terrible crime but if this man is going on trial then pretty much any survivor of bomber command should go on trial for similar crimes.

I understand your sentiment and I feel a thread on 'Allied War Crimes' would be a worthy endeavour, having looked into this recently and seeing only one side being brought to justice, I would be more than happy to contribute to it.

However, I'm sure you don't want to go off topic here as Oradour does not deserve to be side lined. Having seen the Church were the women and children were murdered and the alter behind which so many of the little bodies were found, its a salutary lesson as to the depths that humans can sink to.

I was looking at some of the details of the atrocity again and found an interesting parallel to a similar war crime I investigated last Summer. The investigation was about a village in Ukraine called Jefremowka, the accusation was against the Recon Btln of the 1st SS Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler (LSAH). One of the pieces of evidence I found was an tapped conversation from a German POW who 'heard' the story, he maintained that the men of the village were brought to a church and a machine gun was set up which fired low only getting the men at the front, those at the back had naturally thrown themselves to the floor but were uninjured, then petrol was called for and these men doused and set alight, the men were burnt alive, the woman and children killed after, method unknown......

..........in the details of Oradour, there was evidence given that the same thing happened there, the men lined up and shots fired low, the survivors being doused in petrol.......In this case the woman and children were brought to the church, machine gunned, killed with grenades and then the church set alight.

The interesting thing is that both the WSS 1st LSAH and 2nd 'Das Reich' fought side by side on the Eastern front for the battle of Kharkov in 43 were the attack on Jefremowka happened, so this same method seems to have been adopted there . There is evidence that both of these atrocities were in retaliation for 'partisan' activity in the localities, the result in both cases being the murder of every man, woman and child in the villages concerned in the most brutal and inhumane fashion.

Ardennes1944

Dresden.

Balaclava1991

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Oradour was a terrible crime but if this man is going on trial then pretty much any survivor of bomber command should go on trial for similar crimes.

There is a hell of a difference between Allied bomber crews risking behind shot down by German fighters or German AAA guns to bomb a city which was a major transit point for German ground forces and a group of enraged Nazi fanatics herding men women and children into buildings and burning them alive.
The aim of the firebombing of German cities was to try to force the German people to surrender.
Millions of people died needlessly in 1944-1945 while the Germans continued fighting to the end. The SS continued to murder people right up until the end even though they knew Nazi Germany was doomed.
Any and all means necessary should have been used and were used to try and bring the terrible war to an end sooner.
As Bomber Harris said, the Germans had sown the wind and reaped the whirlwind.
Ghastly things were done by the Allies to crush Nazi Germany but they crimes of the Nazis more than justify what was done to the Germans.
The men who flew mission after mission after mission to rain bombs on German cities were heroes.
The Nazis who slaughtered millions were utterly degenerate and evil.
To make any comparison between the Allies and the Axis monsters is grotesque.

BlaasForRafa

Balaclava1991 wrote: »

There is a hell of a difference .

The only difference is that one is doing it from 20 thousand feet up and the other is doing it from 20 feet.

The men who flew mission after mission after mission to rain bombs on German cities were heroes.

This idea that all british personnel were heroes is pretty juvenile, do you get your opinions from Warlord and Commando comics or something?

@boomchicawawa - In addition to LSSAH's recon unit, wasn't it Peiper's 3rd battalion that were called "the blowtorch battalion" for their proclivity for burning down villages? And later was involved in more well known atrocities like Malmedy.

Some Waffen SS unit leaders seemed to have a willingness to prosecute a "total war" that went beyond the boundaries of any kind of rational morality. I wonder if this was due to ideology and indoctrination or brutalising experiences on the eastern front.

boomchicawawa

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

@boomchicawawa - In addition to LSSAH's recon unit, wasn't it Peiper's 3rd battalion that were called "the blowtorch battalion" for their proclivity for burning down villages? And later was involved in more well known atrocities like Malmedy.

Some Waffen SS unit leaders seemed to have a willingness to prosecute a "total war" that went beyond the boundaries of any kind of rational morality. I wonder if this was due to ideology and indoctrination or brutalising experiences on the eastern front.

Yes, you're quite right about Peiper and in fact there is a Russian Document that I uncovered that indicates that the Russians suspected Peiper for the killing in Jefremowka, I had to investigate his movements and rule him out. The killing took place on the 17th Feb 1943, there is a memorial to the dead in the village, I placed Kurt Meyer in the village on the day in question as I had details from the LSAH's own records for their movements. I also found 3 German POWs whose evidence was very interesting, none were there but each one gave details that intertwined with each other and all pointed the finger at Kurt Meyers btln. I have sent the whole book of evidence to Jefremowka in November as I feel that should have all the facts.

Yes, the war on the Eastern front was brutal with both sides criss crossing various villages and burning and killing the inhabitants, in fact Peiper wasn't the only one thought to have done it, Russian forces were also suspected. The brutalisation of the LSAH at this time is often blamed for the excesses of the 12th Hitler Jugend in Normandy in 44, and as shown, by the 2nd Das Reich at Oradour. I have POW testimony that mentions Peipers blow torch btln, I'm not sure if it was the original accusation against him, but this testimony was taken before Malmady when Peiper became more well known. He always maintained that the blowtorch insignia was innocent :rolleyes: ..... I have yet to find details of a specific village he targeted on the eastern front, as I say, the Russians think it was Jefremowka and I have seen that accusation repeated on other forums, but I'm 100% sure it was not him. Perhaps I could dig for evidence on him .......;)

Balaclava1991

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

The only difference is that one is doing it from 20 thousand feet up and the other is doing it from 20 feet.

Rubbish. The Germans were firing back from fighter planes and AAA guns and many of those killed on the ground were factory workers who built the tanks and planes and guns used to conquer Europe.
The SS scum who machine gunned naked people into mass graves had nobody shooting back at them.

This idea that all british personnel were heroes is pretty juvenile, do you get your opinions from Warlord and Commando comics or something?

I get my opinions from historians such as Max Hastings. Bombing German cities was the ONLY way of directly striking at the heart of Germany between June 1940 until June 1944. Tens of thousands of airmen climbed into planes knowing that their lives were now measures in months at best. Those men helped to smash Hitler's Reich to bits and they gave their lives for our freedom today.

If you can't tell the difference between their heroism and Nazi thugs with submachine guns gunning down helpless civilians you not only are juvenile you have no moral compass whatsoever.

Some Waffen SS unit leaders seemed to have a willingness to prosecute a "total war" that went beyond the boundaries of any kind of rational morality. I wonder if this was due to ideology and indoctrination or brutalising experiences on the eastern front.

Both. There is a direct evolutionary link between the Nazi thugs who beat up Jews, Communists and Social Democrats on the streets of German cities and the rampaging Nazi armies who destroyed Europe. Nazism went from one extreme to the next as Hitler's poison seeped from his own infected mind to his corrupted morally bankrupt inner circle and then into the minds of every German man woman and child rendering barbarians.

In the end Germany had to be turned into a sea of fire.

BlaasForRafa

Balaclava1991 wrote: »

Rubbish. The Germans were firing back from fighter planes.

Yeah, all those housewives and children who were murdered were flying BF110s at the time then....yeah....

Bombing German cities was the ONLY way of directly striking at the heart of Germany

It was terror bombing, pure and simple. They resorted to these methods because the british army got its ass kicked any time they didn't have a massive advantage over the Germans.

If you can't tell the difference between their heroism and Nazi thugs with submachine guns gunning down helpless civilians you not only are juvenile you have no moral compass whatsoever.

Dropping incendiary bombs onto women and children was really heroic. The victors write the history and the victors get to decide who gets justice and who doesn't. Bomber command personnel were as guilty as any in the Waffen SS.

In the end Germany had to be turned into a sea of fire.

The Nazis had to be defeated but you seem to glory in the murder of civilians a little too much.

boomchicawawa

Well, as it seems there is not going to be a new thread on this issue,so I'll put my tuppence worth in.

The ideology of National Socialism is abhorrent to me, the treatment of the Jews and others was inhuman and barbaric, the war on the Eastern Front especially brutal and without mercy, the enslaving of lands and people was a war crime, the Allied victory being righteous ...... But ....

I have grave reservations about the policy of bombing German cities to oblivion, especially post Jan 45 when it was obvious to all that the German war machine was on its last legs....

Having grown up bombarded with images of London's valiant stand in the blitz, the footage of the bombed out streets and the casualties, the fire storms etc it was a sobering experience to learn that German cities suffered in one night the tonnage that London had suffered over the course of the whole war......

This is a view I hold, others it seems don't feel this way and that is your prerogative, I suppose its down to each individuals moral compass or our ability to rationalise a situation for that particular time and not from a perspective 70 years later when time and distance may distort our views. I don't intend to get into a debate about the justification of these bombings, my views are unshakable.

I have never been of the view that there were only devils on one side and angels on the other. I have seen to much evidence of Allied atrocities and cover ups, no trials, no justice for the dead that should have been protected by the Geneva convention but on the other side, trials and retribution for the exact same crimes. As one Canadian General put it 'The evidence of our excesses lie buried safely behind our lines' (Meeting of Generals, Tony Foster 1982)

Red Nissan

I am surprised at this. I cannot find side to press on as I agree with both arguments.

I have loaded up The World At War since I saw this thread and am on episode 10 by this am.

boomchicawawa

Red Nissan wrote: »

I am surprised at this. I cannot find side to press on as I agree with both arguments.

I have loaded up The World At War since I saw this thread and am on episode 10 by this am.[/QUOTE

The 'World at War' was made in the early '70s and includes interviews with some of the main 'movers and shakers' of the time, I watched it as a child and it instilled in me an everlasting fascination with this dark period in our history.....In my opinion it has stood the test of time.......

Balaclava1991

boomchicawawa wrote: »

Well, as it seems there is not going to be a new thread on this issue,so I'll put my tuppence worth in.

The ideology of National Socialism is abhorrent to me, the treatment of the Jews and others was inhuman and barbaric, the war on the Eastern Front especially brutal and without mercy, the enslaving of lands and people was a war crime, the Allied victory being righteous ...... But ....

I have grave reservations about the policy of bombing German cities to oblivion, especially post Jan 45 when it was obvious to all that the German war machine was on its last legs....

Having grown up bombarded with images of London's valiant stand in the blitz, the footage of the bombed out streets and the casualties, the fire storms etc it was a sobering experience to learn that German cities suffered in one night the tonnage that London had suffered over the course of the whole war......

This is a view I hold, others it seems don't feel this way and that is your prerogative, I suppose its down to each individuals moral compass or our ability to rationalise a situation for that particular time and not from a perspective 70 years later when time and distance may distort our views. I don't intend to get into a debate about the justification of these bombings, my views are unshakable.

I have never been of the view that there were only devils on one side and angels on the other. I have seen to much evidence of Allied atrocities and cover ups, no trials, no justice for the dead that should have been protected by the Geneva convention but on the other side, trials and retribution for the exact same crimes. As one Canadian General put it 'The evidence of our excesses lie buried safely behind our lines' (Meeting of Generals, Tony Foster 1982)

The Germans deserved everything that was coming to them and more.

The priority was to try and end the war faster and the Allies had thousands and thousands of bombers and tens of thousands of airmen so they used them to take the war into the heart of Germany.

Did it really bring the war to an end sooner? It's debatable.

If anything Allied morale had to be maintained and while they waited for D-Day and the ground invasion of Europe, something had to be done or seen to be done and that was the bombing of German cities.

The mass murder of millions of Russians and Slavs and the Holocaust of the Jews and the oppression of the entire continent by a vast military machine had to have consequences for the Nazis.

For almost 70 years Germany has been kept in their box. They now produce great porn and beer.

Similarly the Japanese are gentle harmless people today more interested in sweet voiced pop singers and weird TV shows than slaughtering and murdering millions.

Thanks to the brutal retribution they suffered in World War 2.

Wibbs

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

The only difference is that one is doing it from 20 thousand feet up and the other is doing it from 20 feet.

There's one very big difference. The bombings stopped when Germany surrendered, the nazi killings went on after countries and people surrendered. If the Nazi's had won the war do you think they would have stopped their killings of those they considered enemies?

BlaasForRafa

Wibbs wrote: »

There's one very big difference. The bombings stopped when Germany surrendered, the nazi killings went on after countries and people surrendered. If the Nazi's had won the war do you think they would have stopped their killings of those they considered enemies?

A war crime is a war crime whether the victim has surrendered or not.

riffmongous

Balaclava1991 wrote: »

The Germans deserved everything that was coming to them and more.

The priority was to try and end the war faster and the Allies had thousands and thousands of bombers and tens of thousands of airmen so they used them to take the war into the heart of Germany.

Did it really bring the war to an end sooner? It's debatable.

If anything Allied morale had to be maintained and while they waited for D-Day and the ground invasion of Europe, something had to be done or seen to be done and that was the bombing of German cities.

The mass murder of millions of Russians and Slavs and the Holocaust of the Jews and the oppression of the entire continent by a vast military machine had to have consequences for the Nazis.

For almost 70 years Germany has been kept in their box. They now produce great porn and beer.

Similarly the Japanese are gentle harmless people today more interested in sweet voiced pop singers and weird TV shows than slaughtering and murdering millions.

Thanks to the brutal retribution they suffered in World War 2.

Where do you get this **** from?

riffmongous

Wibbs wrote: »

There's one very big difference. The bombings stopped when Germany surrendered, the nazi killings went on after countries and people surrendered. If the Nazi's had won the war do you think they would have stopped their killings of those they considered enemies?

But I think that just means that one side was worse than the other, which no sane person would deny, but it doesn't mean that some of what the allies did wasn't wrong or evil.

Balaclava1991

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

A war crime is a war crime whether the victim has surrendered or not.

What alternative had the Allies? The Nazis were butchering millions of people.
Every option had to be used to try and bring down Nazi Germany.
If they could have shortened the war with bombing raids why shouldn't they have used it?
The morale of the German people had to be completely broken and the bombing turned their cities into ashes.
Ultimately the Nazis were crushed when the Red Army blasted their way into the center of Berlin with the loss of millions of lives.
The Allies had nothing but bad choices to make.
Should they fight for every inch of ground and drag the war on into the late 1940s or even the 1950s or else flatten every German cities and break the backs of the Nazis?

Balaclava1991

riffmongous wrote: »

But I think that just means that one side was worse than the other, which no sane person would deny, but it doesn't mean that some of what the allies did wasn't wrong or evil.

What alternative did the Allies have but to use evil means to defeat an even greater evil? Churchill and FDR made their Stalin their ally knowing full well what fate lay in store for Eastern Europe. They had to win and that was that. You cannot afford to be less ruthless than your enemy just because your intentions are benevolent.

Balaclava1991

riffmongous wrote: »

Where do you get this **** from?

Can you refute anything I've said?

kabakuyu

Balaclava1991 wrote: »

Can you refute anything I've said?

Great porn? please do tell.

riffmongous

kabakuyu wrote: »

Great porn? please do tell.

And they've always made great beer

BlaasForRafa

Balaclava1991 wrote: »

What alternative did the Allies have but to use evil means to defeat an even greater evil? Churchill and FDR made their Stalin their ally knowing full well what fate lay in store for Eastern Europe. They had to win and that was that. You cannot afford to be less ruthless than your enemy just because your intentions are benevolent.

Bulls**t that's just a specious justification for war crimes against civilians. The american attacks on german oil production facilities did FAR more to cripple the german war machine that RAF terror bombing ever did.

Dyr

Don't suppose there's any chance of a court putting the members of the 20th infantry up in front of it for the my lai massacre?

Morality and justice eh?

longhalloween

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Bulls**t that's just a specious justification for war crimes against civilians. The american attacks on german oil production facilities did FAR more to cripple the german war machine that RAF terror bombing ever did.

Worth a listen if you have time. He details the rationale of firebombing civilians and how it was justified in the context of the war.

http://www.dancarlin.com/disp.php/hharchive/Show-42---(BLITZ)-Logical-Insanity/Second%20World%20War-World%20War%20Two-World%20War%20One

It gets fairly intense when he reads survivor accounts.

riffmongous

longhalloween wrote: »

Worth a listen if you have time. He details the rationale of firebombing civilians and how it was justified in the context of the war.

http://www.dancarlin.com/disp.php/hharchive/Show-42---(BLITZ)-Logical-Insanity/Second%20World%20War-World%20War%20Two-World%20War%20One

Can you sum it up for us?

longhalloween

riffmongous wrote: »

Can you sum it up for us?

Not really.

I couldn't do it justice.

fergus1001

For any one trying to defend the Americans and British I will make one point and one point only


They turned hundreds of people women and children into shadows on walls in Japan
And killed thousands more

War never changes

"the sky was blue but there was no god''

longhalloween

fergus1001 wrote: »

They turned hundreds of people women and children into shadows on walls in Japan
And killed thousands more
'

If you're killing tens of thousands a day anyways, does it matter whether you use thousands of bombs or just one.